I knew that you had that stance on his beliefs, Ice. It is always a good and civil thing to respect others opinions even though people don't agree with each other.

Here is a simple statement and Q&A.

For all you who do not believe in a creator, afterlife, heaven, hell, etc.

If some people believe that there is no "God" or positive force, or "Satan" or evil and negative force, and we are all going to the same place when we die, (which for most non-believers means the ground as a natural product)

then why not hope and believe for the best, like believing in an afterlife, heaven, or paradise? That would be better than being in the ground in a dark and lifeless state. I have just wondered about why you all don't do that. I mean, personally believing it wouldn't mean you would have to play into all the "religious mumbo jumbo".


Peace,
JD

JDODSON said:

Because I can't convince myself there could an afterlife...

I'm ok with the idea that I will cease to exist. I'm not sitting here thinking "Aero" is so great he should exist for all eternity.

Aerogram said:

Fair enough. I know that there are some people who just cannot retain an outlook like that. I only believe half of what I hear and see, and until proven, I don't really believe anything. I guess that for some, it has been proven to them, and to others it hasn't...to each thier own. I am one who it has been proven to personally, so I may not quite understand how people could think that they are completely gone when they die. But I do know this. We are worth living beyond this earthly life. I know it. It is not a prideful thing, it is simply a promise given to me by my God.

JD

Besides the negative comments towards Witnesses this is a very interesting thread. Thank you IceNine in allowing for a better attitude towards Prince's Faith.

How about a spirituality in this life that focuses on here-and-now events, that means quitting trying to figure out whether there is next stage?

Not one of us will ever know. Think about that... We have beliefs, faith of another life after our earth visit. As we are in ourselves right now, we will never know. It may mean that we die, there is nothing, so we become nothing. It may mean that we die, there is something, so we go onto something.

I wasted so much time trying to figure it all out... what's next. I'm more concerned with achieving moment to moment living. Getting the most i can from life.

IceNine said:

Truly, I have found that in my old age my religiosity has bloomed. Additionallity, my sexuiciousness has increased in specificitionacity.

Like my mommy said, "Tommifer, you need to control your horninity around members of the feminic persuasionality."

She was wise beyond her ageousness.

tommyalma said:

Preach it... you are so right...

*bkw quietly tip toes past this thread looking for a thread with fart jokes on it*

IceNine said:

I can't resist...I already posted against this once but I have to reiterate:

Ice, do you need someone to come and rob you of your possessions and kill your loved ones before you realize that evil isn't just a societal convention? It's REAL muthafucka, and if you don't think it exists, wait til it fucks you over and then ask society whether or not you should be pissed.

I realize I'm sticking to a very specific point that wasn't even in the original post, but nothing makes me sicker than the notion that good and evil have nothing to do with real, obvious, consequences for real people, atheist or not, and that such things can be simply intellectualized away in the name of existentialism or any other such fanciful category of rationalism.

You go to hell Ice! You go to hell and you die!!! LOL...just kidding, I heard that on South Park once.

teller said:

Allow me to clarify:

I do not believe in universal morality, but I do believe in ethics and compassion and I have a strong sense of what is right and wrong, but I do not believe that my views are law.

Nobody needs to do anything bad to me or anyone else for me to agree that harming others is not the right thing to do. Just because I don't believe in univeral good and evil does not mean that I advocate murder, rape, robbery or any other harmful activity.

What I am talking about is quite simply utilitarianism and does not imply that universal good and evil exist. I am simply advocating actions that might provide the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people.

...
[This message was edited Mon Aug 19 17:38:43 PDT 2002 by IceNine]

Several people have commented on concentrating on
enjoying life now.
In my humble opinion, I think that is cool!
We only have "now" to work with...however should we
not consider how we spend this "now"?
Should we squander it, simply because this life MAY
be all there is?
Someone said there is more happiness in giving than
there is in receiving. I believe that is true.

Sometimes when I see someone old, gray-haired
and bent over...I know that my time for helping
others is limited. My time for kicking up my heels is limited, too. And I wonder...how will I evaluate
my own life in retrospect? I think we all want to do something worthwhile during our life-span.

I personally believe that man was created with
everlasting life in view...not somewhere in some
unknown state...but right here on earth.
Sorry...I promised myself I would not get off into
beliefs...but I am what I believe.

Really, when it all boils down, we are all of the
the same stuff...mortals.

-
[This message was edited Mon Aug 19 17:54:37 PDT 2002 by SensualMelody]

IceNine said:

Clarification accepted. Best wishes to you...don't go to hell and don't die.

I suppose that since I learned that good and evil derive from man's nature and the nature of free will I have had a low tolerance for anything that sounds like a dismissal of said standards which aren't arbitrary but rather are derived from the facts of man's existence as a conceptual being, society's opinion notwithstanding (and society is usually the last to figure shit out).

MightBeQueen said ,
I think Prince is far from quiting.
I hope you are right, I don't want him to quit.
I hope he never quits,but I heard him say this at
his show in DC, It upset the crowd so much, he didn't
go on and finish what he was going to say.

Wonder what would happen if I posted this thread?

Perhaps b called a

hypocrite

Nep2nes said:

Why don't you try and see what happens?

IceNine said

Two thorts 1) Is this at all related to the idea that the 'big bang' is very close in nature to 'quantum fluctuations' - i.e. all those particles popping in and out of existence? Is the universe an out of whack particle with a total energy of zero? How many other such places might there be? "Reality" just gets whackier and whackier... Oh well, back to cleaning toilets for money

2) Prince and religion. I'm not persuaded that his views should be respected just because he has understandable reasons for holding them. Hitler undoubtedly had deep psychological reasons for believing that jews should be killed. His bizarre beliefs must have been meeting, or feeding off, some kind of deep neurosis, presumably rooted in a very, very troubled upbringing. But it would surely have been better that he had his mental problems treated by Sigmund Freud (I wonder if they ever saw each other in the street in Vienna) instead of adopting an extreme anti-semitic 'philosophy' (for want of a better word), no matter how therapeutic. Prince's adoption of the JW religion seems to me, assuming your analysis is correct, to be very similar. Bullshit is bullshit. I'm not sure it is a good thing to respect people who abandon free thinking when it personally suits them. It might encourage others. "I think you'd better close it, and let me lead you..." I've always hated that line.

3) I still think I can respect Prince as a human being, and feel sympathy for him when people close to him die. But I still think some of his beliefs are ludicrous. Thank god he be funky!!

Damn, that's three thorts. And I guess the last sentence is also a thort (ad infinitum...). And yes, I think standard English spelling is ridiculous.

I don't think this thread was meant to be for persons to be persuaded into respecting our religion just IceNines approach to at least being tolerant towards it, posters' thoughts and other interesting subjects.

We do not expect persons to respect us. Whether they do or don't is fine. There are those who are tolerant, those who are not and those who are indifferent. Me personally for example, I would not say cruel things about anyone or about what they choose to believe or not to believe. Also what may be considered bull, crazy, stupid or ridiculous to some may NOT be to others. We each have an opinion but to be down right rude to a certain group just because we do not have the same beliefs or outlook is just plain juvenille.

What people need to learn is compassion when it comes to other people because the world does not revolve around any of us, tolerance is what is needed. I may not agree with certain things people do or say, but I would not be cruel or rude to them because of it. Prince made a choice and you do not have to like it but you sure do have to live with it.

KeithyT said:

theC
Your called that anyway
Yeah try it and see
[This message was edited Tue Aug 20 19:12:54 PDT 2002 by theC]

theC said:

I suspect that it would result in people calling her stupid... not unlike every other time she posts.

SisterGirl said

IceNine said

SisterGirl, you make some interesting points. But are you saying that you "respect" the views of white supremacists, even though you do not share them? Should I respect the views of people who believe in female circumcision? What about people who believe that eating certain parts of Tigers will enhance their sexual performance? Should their views be respected? Or people who believe that the earth is flat? For me JWs come very close to falling into this category of thinkers. Sometimes we need to raise our voices against ignorance and injustice (even Jesus seems to have believed that violent direct action was sometimes unavoidable - the money lenders incident?). I suppose one problem here is that the word 'respect' seems to cover quite a wide semantic field. In my handy Oxford it says: "v.t. Regard with deference, esteem, or honour; avoid degrading or insulting or injuring or interfering with or interrupting, treat with consideration, spare, refrain from offending or corrupting or tempting." The trouble with deliberately not offending people is that we run the risk of becoming timid little mice that will never say anything lest it makes someone feel uneasy. As much as possible I try to be honest with people, and say 'I think you're insane', if they seem to me to hold absurd views. I really cannot see what is wrong with this.

narcotizedmind said:

so if i were to say, for example "i think you seem like a real jerk," because it is my honest feeling, can you see anything wrong with that?

narcotizedmind said:

___

SensualMelody said:

I believe that Sistergirl is referring to respecting
others' choices when it comes to religion. She is not
referring to tolerating cruel and vicious behaviours
on the part of others. Simply put, freedom of worship
is a precious priviledge. I won't stomp on your rights.
You won't stomp on mine.
One thing that witnesses cannot be accused of is
timidity. Nor can we be categorized as one's not taking
positive action for change. We just have methods
based on our belief system, which incidentally requires
that the positive changes begin with ourselves.
I'm sure you have seen where Sistergirl has raised her
voice against ignorance and injustice. What this thread
is about is NOT raising a voice against an individual
who is exercising his right to worship God the
way his heart inclines him. In other words, If you want
to be catholic...I respect your choice. If you are
of the Jewish faith, I respect your right to be that.
If you are athiest, I respect your right to choose that.
If you are Jehovah's Witness, I respect your right to
choose that. You see it's about respecting others
people's right to worship as they see fit. That's all.

-

Nep2nes said:

This is just an observation, but it seems like you turn everything into something about you whether you start the thread or not. I don't think you could have started this thread mostly because you are nowhere near as well spoken or intelligent as IceNine. Or if you are, you have never shown it. Besides if you will notice, there are no Princebonics in the original post, another reason you couldn't start it.

Narcotizedmind, you will find that the main problem with your simplistic reasoning is that you're failing to realise the real danger of calling somebody a "jerk", just because you're purporting to be "honest".

I don't buy your bunkum that people necessarily "run the risk of becoming timid little mice that will never say anything lest it makes others feel uneasy". More than likely, most sensible people, upon encountering ideas that they perceive to be contrary to what they believe, will first excercise prudence and devote a measure of time and energy reasoning with others in a constructive and civilised manner without having to resort to midless insults.

There is, of course, a time for everything underneath the sun, a time for honesty, a time for love, as well as a time for beating the crap out of money-changers.It's all about making the perceived right choices at the right time.

However, you are more likely to find that simply calling someone a "jerk" may just be the quickest route to a hospital bed for you. Or worse.

Giotto, that was very nicely put.

When Jesus ran the money changers out of the temple,
he did so out of love for his Father, and love for
his Father's house of worhip.
Interestingly, Jesus took time to make a whip out of
ropes before running the thieving merchants out, which
means that he was not in a fit of anger...
Also upon seeing Jesus do this, his disciples
called to mind the prophecy concerning him...
"the zeal for your house will eat me up"

I agree with you Giotto, being honest with one's
opinion is fine... being arrogant and rude...no.

-

giotto & SM... thanks for backing me up.

MightBQueen said

No. If you like, start a thread saying "narcotizedmind is a total jerk". I won't be offended (especially if you give carefully argued reasons why I seem to you to be a jerk). But actually I didn't advocate insulting people. I just don't think I should respect the views of people when the views seem to me contrary to all reason. I never said, in point of fact, that I, you or anyone should tell anyone else when we don't respect their views. I might choose to keep it strictly private. I was really interested in the point of principle involved. I was not sure exactly what 'respecting other people's views' involves, or whether it is at all times desirable. Oh, and numbers can never decide issues of right and wrong. And I would never say "Narcotizedmind has spoken". That 'signiture' seems amazing from someone advocating universal respect. Are you saying 'mine is the last word on any subject that I address'? I'm not sure I respect that.

Giotto said

A couple of obvious points. First, I never said 'call people jerks when they disagree with you' or 'insult people, don't reason with them'. There is surely a difference between insulting someone and saying "your views seem to me the same as believing in a flat earth; that's insane". Yes, you say, there is a time for not respecting people's views. But that's all I was saying. I'm advocating an impossible world in which someone can say "that seems like shit to me" and no one will be offended.

narcotizedmind said:

i would, except it

1) sounds boring
2) has probably already been done



of course that would be ridiculous for you to do so...

since when have a narcotized mind and a queen carried the same clout?

When the JWs refer to themselves as sheep,(Lambs of God)
and people of other Christian religions as goats that
will go down in everlasting destruction and will not
recieve salvation from God, this isnot respectful
of other peoples beliefs and religions.

Besides, with all this media coverage coming out
on molestation, be it Catholic, JWs, they just arrested
a methodist in my hometown for molestation,

Maybe God is sending a message not to put so much
trust in manmade organized religion.

If a religion is the truth than why does any religion
need any other book but the bible?

,.

lovebird said:

i agree somewhat w/ what you say about organized religion. we shouldn't be putting our trust in man, but in God. people make mistakes... sometimes, very bad ones.

our personal relationship w/ God is of utmost importance. but then again, we were told not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together...

one really good, obvious thing i can say about JWs right now is that we, as an organization, do not participate in wars and armed conflicts. what other major organized religion can claim this?

for me, that makes a big difference.