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PrintableStop getting caught up in this world's comfortable matrix of dialectical thinking, and let's get back to didactics lest we deceive ourselves. Down with the diaprax. Right and wrong do exist. | |
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IceNine said: We all know that Prince has been spiritual all his life and has always talked about god... he has become quite devout lately though and has abandoned his old free-thinking style.
On average, religiosity increases with age, as people begin to truly ponder their own mortality. Teenagers and young adults usually walk around with a feeling of invincibility and do not contemplate the inevitability of death with the depth of a person of advancing age. Prince is certainly getting older and he has recently seen the deaths of multiple family members. I think that there is a very real correlation between the pain associated with the loss of loved ones and his own struggle with the inevitability of his mortality and his much more rigid religious stance. His rejection of the notion of hell can be seen as a rejection of the notion of being punished for past transgressions and as a compassionate stance of wishing hell on no man, woman or child. Larry Graham probably has less to do with Prince's new-found religion than Prince's own internal needs and search for a cure for the pain of his losses and his fears of the unknown. Prince's choices are his own and I believe that he makes them in truth to his heart and not out of brainwashing by Larry Graham. I have decided to respect his views and his opinions although I do not agree with them. The man is in pain and is searching for answers, as we all are. This is coming from a man who is not religious and does not believe in god, heaven, hell or devils. CAVEAT: This does not mean that I will avoid discussion of religious issues, this is simply stating my opinion of Prince's situation and my respect for his decision. I will remain caustic at most times, but I had a moment of weakness here... *sniff* Thank you for another insightful thread and post IceNine. Everyone has choices to make with their lives, and we all have to learn to respect those choices. While I am happy that Prince has looked into JW, my listening to his music has not been based on his personal search. I've enjoyed his music for decades, even when I didn't agree with everything he has said lyrically. | |
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Question? When a lion rips apart a deer or other animal for food it does it in the most cruel way possible(being eaten alive).What did the deer do to deserve this??And why is it considered nature???Why does something have to die for something to live???
Hey theC... that is a thought provoking question you asked. My view on it may mean nothing to you, but I will say it anyways! lol But first let me say that you said a lion eats its prey "alive"... I think that's not correct. Normally a lion attacks, kills and then eats its prey ... But to the question at hand... can it be considered morally right or wrong? And why is it considered nature? Most animals that kill for survival really can't tell the difference between what is morally "right and wrong" or "good and evil", except for one "animal": the human. For one thing... the other is 'natural selection'... that is what is at work when a lion kills a deer and consumes it, alone or with other lions. With it, it increases itself and its own species' chance of survival. That in itself is "good" for the lions... However... If one day the population of deers would severly diminish because of an overabundance of lion and other attacks, or outbreaks of diseases, because a group is more vulnerable to outbreaks... then ultimately there would be very little deer left. The lions and yaheena's, and the leopards and cheataa's themselves will then all suffer for it and be diminished in their population, possibly up to the level of extinction... Now would that be "good" for any of them? obviously not. Their own existence depends on the health of the deer population. It is also essential for the chance s of surivival that weak and sick will be 'offered' so that in turn the group stays healthy and fit. It is essential that populations don't grow too big, but neither decrease too much. because when on the other hand... the deer population is growing too fast, a serious need for a decrease of the deers develops itself naturally, since an oversized grazing deer population puts too much pressure on the grasslands and the earth could become bare and arid. Ultimately turning the savannah into a dessert... and thus not the only 'kill' the chances of survival of itself but also the chances of most of the other animals... alltho' that is a bit generally put () this is how I think "nature" basically works,...and I personally think that's mighty ingeniously thought off! lol 
Moreover I think you could even say that killing in nature is "morally justified"... - [This message was edited Sun Aug 18 14:31:01 PDT 2002 by Abrazo] You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security. | |
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Oh and let me add...lol... that i'm certainly NO biologist, nor pretending to know a whole lot about it. don't get me wrong now, i was just offering my opinion You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security. | |
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Abrazo... I had to log on briefly just to say..., that is excellently put...  I have taken my share of Biology/Environmental Science courses and what you mentioned... is right along my personal beliefs/theories to the natural occurences of nature.
Interesting to hear your own personal views... personally..., I can relate 100% to the subject at hand and how seemingly... instinctively/naturally the animals survive/prevail.
Beautiful Day!
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Nep2nes said: *reads post*
...*reads signature*  Damn '2nes, I feel left out! oh well  Nep2nes
love chook, 'nuff said.  "So strange that no one stayed at the end of the Parade..." - Wendy & Lisa's "Song About" on their 1987 self-titled album.
RIAA
 'nuff said. | |
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Abrazo said: Oh and let me add...lol... that i'm certainly NO biologist, nor pretending to know a whole lot about it. don't get me wrong now, i was just offering my opinion
theC No prob,just thoughts in here.You are correct(imo) on some aspects of how nature works,sometimes when a lion or other pack animal catures BIG prey,they sometimes rips the animal apart while it is still alive.The part they rip from this animal they eat,so the animal is actually eaten alive.As for they prey i have heard they don't feel pain.But they run for their lives and seem to scream when they are being eaten.I have watched alot of documentaries on this and i never could understand how or why nature works the way it does.It seems like some animals are born to suffer. | |
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Gee Ice, I can almost hear every word of your post as if you were here saying it in person. I agree %100 with what you said and your feeling about Prince and religion (any) religion but the fact the he needs his GOD. I think it takes a good heart to see the pain in another persons soul. I feel he is in burnt out mode right now, and it is effecting his work. Most of us have been hurt or in pain at one time or another in our life-time and we find it hard to get out of bed and sometimes we need to find the strenth to just get up and go to work. This is why in my post I tell him" ~come on get up, up~ lets get going". I guess all we can do is pray for him...the ones who pray...the ones who do not pray can just aknowledge as IceNine has, that they understand and you all can WISH (he gets better). Prince if you read this...We do like you alot...even if we are upset about NPGMC. But there is ALWAYS something to smile about! | |
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IceNine said: EchoOfMySoul said: IceNine, I've asked you this before. Since you do not believe in God, heaven, hell or devils. Do you believe in EVIL and GOOD, because they both exist, and who than is responsible for the two?
There is no such thing as good and evil, there are only subjective opinions and good and evil are value judgments. Implying that good and evil actually exist is to pre-suppose a universal metaphysical morality. I do not subscribe to metaphysics and believe that all human actions are judged subjectively based on societal norms and concensus opinion; this does not make these concepts a universal metaphysic because they are subjective opinions. IceNine] GOOD=LIFE. EVIL-DEATH. Life and death are subjective societal conventions? Only a pseudo-intellecutal would try to sound "deep" by side-stepping the problems of good and evil, atheist or not, by using that tired, oh-so-20th-century, "society came up with it" crap. There really is such a thing as the metaphysically given, even for atheists. You can't stop the sun from rising. You can't make evil good and good evil by changing defintions and labels and shuttling it off on society. WEAK. Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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Back to the main point...everyone's looking for the truth.
Prince used to be this character who seemed to know something about God that the rest of us didn't know. This God approved of sex. It was very intruiging and mysterious. Now it's the JW thing. It's no longer mysterious. It's no longer interesting. It's just those freaks who go door to door thumping a bible. But I hold out some hope that Prince is just evolving and will get past the JW thing. It's certainly not the most compelling philosophy out there, and Prince moves on every few years, so one can hope. Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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teller said: IceNine said: EchoOfMySoul said: IceNine, I've asked you this before. Since you do not believe in God, heaven, hell or devils. Do you believe in EVIL and GOOD, because they both exist, and who than is responsible for the two?
There is no such thing as good and evil, there are only subjective opinions and good and evil are value judgments. Implying that good and evil actually exist is to pre-suppose a universal metaphysical morality. I do not subscribe to metaphysics and believe that all human actions are judged subjectively based on societal norms and concensus opinion; this does not make these concepts a universal metaphysic because they are subjective opinions. IceNine] GOOD=LIFE. EVIL-DEATH. Life and death are subjective societal conventions? Only a pseudo-intellecutal would try to sound "deep" by side-stepping the problems of good and evil, atheist or not, by using that tired, oh-so-20th-century, "society came up with it" crap. There really is such a thing as the metaphysically given, even for atheists. You can't stop the sun from rising. You can't make evil good and good evil by changing defintions and labels and shuttling it off on society. WEAK. I didn't actually start this post to argue with people, so I won't do that here. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but it is totally bigoted and arrogant to claim you have the "truth" as you do. Also, the sun rising has absolutely NOTHING to do with metaphysics. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: We all know that Prince has been spiritual all his life and has always talked about god... he has become quite devout lately though and has abandoned his old free-thinking style.
Actually, Ice, I'm impressed with this softer side of you. Psychologizing Prince is a difficult task and your analysis makes me think. Thanks for that.
On average, religiosity increases with age, as people begin to truly ponder their own mortality. Teenagers and young adults usually walk around with a feeling of invincibility and do not contemplate the inevitability of death with the depth of a person of advancing age. Prince is certainly getting older and he has recently seen the deaths of multiple family members. I think that there is a very real correlation between the pain associated with the loss of loved ones and his own struggle with the inevitability of his mortality and his much more rigid religious stance. His rejection of the notion of hell can be seen as a rejection of the notion of being punished for past transgressions and as a compassionate stance of wishing hell on no man, woman or child. Larry Graham probably has less to do with Prince's new-found religion than Prince's own internal needs and search for a cure for the pain of his losses and his fears of the unknown. Prince's choices are his own and I believe that he makes them in truth to his heart and not out of brainwashing by Larry Graham. I have decided to respect his views and his opinions although I do not agree with them. The man is in pain and is searching for answers, as we all are. This is coming from a man who is not religious and does not believe in god, heaven, hell or devils. CAVEAT: This does not mean that I will avoid discussion of religious issues, this is simply stating my opinion of Prince's situation and my respect for his decision. I will remain caustic at most times, but I had a moment of weakness here... *sniff* As for Prince, he's so secretive, it's really hard to say. Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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IceNine said: I didn't actually start this post to argue with people, so I won't do that here.
I'll back off since this is your touchy-feely thread, but I implore you consider the definition of metaphysics.You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but it is totally bigoted and arrogant to claim you have the "truth" as you do. Also, the sun rising has absolutely NOTHING to do with metaphysics. Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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IceNine said: We all know that Prince has been spiritual all his life and has always talked about god... he has become quite devout lately though and has abandoned his old free-thinking style.
On average, religiosity increases with age, as people begin to truly ponder their own mortality. Teenagers and young adults usually walk around with a feeling of invincibility and do not contemplate the inevitability of death with the depth of a person of advancing age. Prince is certainly getting older and he has recently seen the deaths of multiple family members. I think that there is a very real correlation between the pain associated with the loss of loved ones and his own struggle with the inevitability of his mortality and his much more rigid religious stance. His rejection of the notion of hell can be seen as a rejection of the notion of being punished for past transgressions and as a compassionate stance of wishing hell on no man, woman or child. Thanks for your compassion Ice! Larry Graham probably has less to do with Prince's new-found religion than Prince's own internal needs and search for a cure for the pain of his losses and his fears of the unknown. Prince's choices are his own and I believe that he makes them in truth to his heart and not out of brainwashing by Larry Graham. I have decided to respect his views and his opinions although I do not agree with them. The man is in pain and is searching for answers, as we all are. This is coming from a man who is not religious and does not believe in god, heaven, hell or devils. CAVEAT: This does not mean that I will avoid discussion of religious issues, this is simply stating my opinion of Prince's situation and my respect for his decision. I will remain caustic at most times, but I had a moment of weakness here... *sniff* | |
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teller said: IceNine said: I didn't actually start this post to argue with people, so I won't do that here.
I'll back off since this is your touchy-feely thread, but I implore you consider the definition of metaphysics.You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but it is totally bigoted and arrogant to claim you have the "truth" as you do. Also, the sun rising has absolutely NOTHING to do with metaphysics. Metaphysics: The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: Metaphysics: The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value. What is this, Websters?
Epistemology deals with relationship between mind and reality...metaphysics deals with REALITY. The GIVEN. Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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teller said: IceNine said: We all know that Prince has been spiritual all his life and has always talked about god... he has become quite devout lately though and has abandoned his old free-thinking style.
Actually, Ice, I'm impressed with this softer side of you. Psychologizing Prince is a difficult task and your analysis makes me think. Thanks for that.
On average, religiosity increases with age, as people begin to truly ponder their own mortality. Teenagers and young adults usually walk around with a feeling of invincibility and do not contemplate the inevitability of death with the depth of a person of advancing age. Prince is certainly getting older and he has recently seen the deaths of multiple family members. I think that there is a very real correlation between the pain associated with the loss of loved ones and his own struggle with the inevitability of his mortality and his much more rigid religious stance. His rejection of the notion of hell can be seen as a rejection of the notion of being punished for past transgressions and as a compassionate stance of wishing hell on no man, woman or child. Larry Graham probably has less to do with Prince's new-found religion than Prince's own internal needs and search for a cure for the pain of his losses and his fears of the unknown. Prince's choices are his own and I believe that he makes them in truth to his heart and not out of brainwashing by Larry Graham. I have decided to respect his views and his opinions although I do not agree with them. The man is in pain and is searching for answers, as we all are. This is coming from a man who is not religious and does not believe in god, heaven, hell or devils. CAVEAT: This does not mean that I will avoid discussion of religious issues, this is simply stating my opinion of Prince's situation and my respect for his decision. I will remain caustic at most times, but I had a moment of weakness here... *sniff* As for Prince, he's so secretive, it's really hard to say. You are very right... Prince is far too secretive to analyze at all... nobody really knows what Prince is up to or what he is thinking, so it really is impossible to analyze him at all. Much of what he says and does might be just to get a reaction from people and might not be the "real" him. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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teller said: IceNine said: Metaphysics: The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value. What is this, Websters?
Epistemology deals with relationship between mind and reality...metaphysics deals with REALITY. The GIVEN. Dictionary.com, to be precise. I am technically an existentialist as far as my philosophy goes, so it is reasonable to assume that I would reject metaphysics. I do not agree with Plato's rather famous ideas of metaphysics or popular metaphysics. I reject both academic and popular metaphysics, although technically, academic metaphysics refers to the search for an underlying meaning of reality. I reject the metaphysics in that most metaphysics imply the existence of a supreme being or universal perfection as in Plato's forms. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: Dictionary.com, to be precise.
Sounds like the universities have gotten to you. Enjoy.I am technically an existentialist as far as my philosophy goes, so it is reasonable to assume that I would reject metaphysics. I do not agree with Plato's rather famous ideas of metaphysics or popular metaphysics. I reject both academic and popular metaphysics, although technically, academic metaphysics refers to the search for an underlying meaning of reality. I reject the metaphysics in that most metaphysics imply the existence of a supreme being or universal perfection as in Plato's forms. Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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Quantum Physics = reasoning for unexplained
4 get prince and introspection into religon that is dated by end of the world theorists. A geek in thick glasses with a PHD can b my savior. | |
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teller said: IceNine said: Dictionary.com, to be precise.
Sounds like the universities have gotten to you. Enjoy.I am technically an existentialist as far as my philosophy goes, so it is reasonable to assume that I would reject metaphysics. I do not agree with Plato's rather famous ideas of metaphysics or popular metaphysics. I reject both academic and popular metaphysics, although technically, academic metaphysics refers to the search for an underlying meaning of reality. I reject the metaphysics in that most metaphysics imply the existence of a supreme being or universal perfection as in Plato's forms. Oh, yeah... I spent eight years at the university... they got to me... I really, really love learning... it is my favorite thing. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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ADORA said: Quantum Physics = reasoning for unexplained
4 get prince and introspection into religon that is dated by end of the world theorists. A geek in thick glasses with a PHD can b my savior. I am also a student of Quantum Physics and Quantum Cosmology. I am currently studying superstring theory and the idea of the universe being a quantum wave function is intriguing to me. I am particularly fond of the theories of Leon Lederman and Stephen Hawking. I really do like Einstein but his total rejection of quantum physics and his love for classical physics was limiting in my opinion. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: I am also a student of Quantum Physics and Quantum Cosmology. I am currently studying superstring theory and the idea of the universe being a quantum wave function is intriguing to me.
Not that this thread is about quantum physics, but I suppose you've heard that the wave/particle duality has now been disproved...?I am particularly fond of the theories of Leon Lederman and Stephen Hawking. I really do like Einstein but his total rejection of quantum physics and his love for classical physics was limiting in my opinion. Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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IceNine said: ADORA said: Quantum Physics = reasoning for unexplained
4 get prince and introspection into religon that is dated by end of the world theorists. A geek in thick glasses with a PHD can b my savior. I am also a student of Quantum Physics and Quantum Cosmology. I am currently studying superstring theory and the idea of the universe being a quantum wave function is intriguing to me. I am particularly fond of the theories of Leon Lederman and Stephen Hawking. I really do like Einstein but his total rejection of quantum physics and his love for classical physics was limiting in my opinion. DO U WEAR GLASSES ALSO..!! | |
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For those interested, you can see Einstein vindicated in Carver Mead's latest work, available on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exe...s&n=507846 Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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IceNine said: We all know that Prince has been spiritual all his life and has always talked about god... he has become quite devout lately though and has abandoned his old free-thinking style.
On average, religiosity increases with age, as people begin to truly ponder their own mortality. Teenagers and young adults usually walk around with a feeling of invincibility and do not contemplate the inevitability of death with the depth of a person of advancing age. Prince is certainly getting older and he has recently seen the deaths of multiple family members. I think that there is a very real correlation between the pain associated with the loss of loved ones and his own struggle with the inevitability of his mortality and his much more rigid religious stance. His rejection of the notion of hell can be seen as a rejection of the notion of being punished for past transgressions and as a compassionate stance of wishing hell on no man, woman or child. Larry Graham probably has less to do with Prince's new-found religion than Prince's own internal needs and search for a cure for the pain of his losses and his fears of the unknown. Prince's choices are his own and I believe that he makes them in truth to his heart and not out of brainwashing by Larry Graham. I have decided to respect his views and his opinions although I do not agree with them. The man is in pain and is searching for answers, as we all are. This is coming from a man who is not religious and does not believe in god, heaven, hell or devils. CAVEAT: This does not mean that I will avoid discussion of religious issues, this is simply stating my opinion of Prince's situation and my respect for his decision. I will remain caustic at most times, but I had a moment of weakness here... *sniff* Hi, IceNine... | |
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For those of you who are interested, here is a solution to the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Paradox:
http://philsci-archive.pi...ureprp.pdf SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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Freespirit said: Abrazo... I had to log on briefly just to say..., that is excellently put...
I have taken my share of Biology/Environmental Science courses and what you mentioned... is right along my personal beliefs/theories to the natural occurences of nature.
Interesting to hear your own personal views... personally..., I can relate 100% to the subject at hand and how seemingly... instinctively/naturally the animals survive/prevail.
Beautiful Day!
Free spirit... Thanks for sharing my point of view!
And you know what? I also just had to log in for a minute to say that. You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security. | |
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IceNine said: For those of you who are interested, here is a solution to the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Paradox:
http://philsci-archive.pi...ureprp.pdf clever distraction.. the site is down give it up... tell us u r just a tease | |
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ADORA said: IceNine said: For those of you who are interested, here is a solution to the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Paradox:
http://philsci-archive.pi...ureprp.pdf clever distraction.. the site is down give it up... tell us u r just a tease Nope, I am not a tease... but I didn't know that the site was down... I will send you the .pdf file of the experiment. EDIT: I have just sent you the file! [This message was edited Sun Aug 18 18:00:52 PDT 2002 by IceNine] SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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