I have yet to understand the logic of those people who want to attribute Prince's greatest music to W&L or the Revolution. Their input was nice for that stage of Prince's musical journey, but come on folks. Some of Prince's best music was pre-W&L as well as post-W&L. They were only around for a few years. His musicianship and artistry have evoloved in indescrible ways since the W&L days. They are talented, but please do not overstate their talents or significance in Prince's music.

Let's face facts. How "great" has W&L's post-Prince work been? I think I would take Prince post-W&L if I had to choose.

bellanoche said:

im gonna agree with all of your statement but the last paragraph...cause *I* believe that their work has been way way way better then princes...but i understand its all up to personal taste...

Ifsixwuz9 said:

I was gonna say, you're speaking for everyone as a whole HoneymoonExpress, and we all have different opinions.

Prince's music did not 'suck' after Wendy & Lisa. Nor did Prince's music 'suck' before Wendy & Lisa.

Prince did not arrive on the music scene with Wendy & Lisa as side-kicks.

Wendy & Lisa are remembered for their time with Prince. I do not think Prince is known for his time with them.

NewMr7 said:

Agreed - Wendy and Lisa are primarily remembered for their stint with Prince.

Their solo work, while respected in its own right, is almost an unknown in the music world.

The overall Purple Rain experience (album, tour, movie) was so out of control that it should not be compared to anything else. Everything was in the right place at the right time.

Se7en said:

Agreed about the part of their music is relatively unknown outside Prince fanbase and I also agreed with NewMr. 7. I always viewed Wendy and Lisa as cult artists. Still despite that people doesn't know them by their names other than association with Prince, their scoring and session contributions do be heard all the time. Like Sheryl Crow's 'My Favorite Mistake', which Wendy played solo guitar still gets decent airplay on pop radio and when folks watches reruns of 'Crossing Jordan' on A&E or newer episodes on NBC, their music gets heard as well. And these are just examples right here.
To me Prince is a genius because his ability to crossgenre on songs which turns out to be amazing and enjoyable sound and also self-taught himself of playing many instruments. And also ability to do music in almost all types of genres for himself and for others like funk and R&B the Time and to pop and new wave like the Family. That doesn't mean that his music was always groundbreaking. And I believed that his most creative period was from 1978-88. That was before and after Wendy and Lisa. Despite that his stuff wasn't nearly as innovative onto the 90s as it was in the 80s, that doesn't take away his 'genuis' title.
[Edited 8/31/06 11:11am]

NouveauDance said:

Well this thread is targeted towards those who are of the opinion that PRince's music sucked after Wendy and Lisa, understood?

ladygirl99 said:

It doesn't? Why not?

HoneymoonXpress said:

Christ you're tetchy!
[Edited 8/31/06 11:44am]

I planned to stay away from this thread and topic because as usual I find these opinions of Prince's time with W&L to be asinine, however I just contain myself so here goes. First, W&L were good with Prince and I enjoyed some of their collaborations together, but as I stated in a previous thread, Prince's music lost it's edge when he started letting them have too much input. ATWIAD is a prime example of it. Prince's b-side tracks during that era mop the floor with anything released on that album. Why? Because they contain more of his signature sound and aren't watered down. I know he wanted to go left field and send a message to the pop world that he wasn't going to be pigeonhold, however the songs he left off the album would have easily done that and upped the ante. Parade suffers from this as well, outside of the tracks he did the majority of the instrumental work on. Prince has an undeniable sense of funkiness, a sense of groove that was lost post Purple Rain because he was focusing too much on the Beatle-esque retreads instead of focusing on his own path and muse. I do enjoy Parde and I like parts of ATWIAD but those albums have no where near the edge, funk or even accesibility of his previous work or SOTT.

Second, music changed post W&L's time with Prince. Rap/Hip Hop, Grunge and New Jack Swing were all dominating the airwaves at the time so Prince had to adapt. Stevie ruled the 1970s but in the 80s his albums are spotty at best. Not because he had lost his genius or needed to get back with the musicians he worked with during his golden era. It's simply because times change and people's tastes change. You either adapt or are left by the waste side playing for a cult following. Cult followings will get you dropped from a major label in a heartbeat so one must play the game and incorporate new ideas. Prince simplified his sound to match the times, incorporated hip hop/rap etc., Stevie started using beat machines and cut down on the overtly socio political lyrics that were so essential during the 1970s in favor of me generation songs that focused moreso on individual experiences during the 1980s.

Lastly, I remember reading in a thread that Wendy(and I'm paraphrasing here) didn't think Prince should go in the soul/funk direction. She thought he could be something other than another old funk band. Yeah and that something would be biting the Beatles. That is so insulting on so many levels and if that statement is true its a joke. I wish Prince could have been allowed to become any old funk band. Last time I checked James, P-Funk and Sly and the Fam were pretty damn good and influenced MANY more people than we realize. That type of logic is why we have threads like this. People mistake cluttered or more complicated sounds like those found on ATWIAD to be more complex when they really took away from Prince's muse. When you compare the overly complex work on those albums with the forward thinking, groundbreaking genius of albums like SOTT its a joke. Prince is at his best when he is stripped down and able to insert little nuances that express how great one is to do so much with so little.

It's just insulting as a Prince fan to try to give all the credit to two of the many musicians he worked with during his long and storied career. Why don't we give love to Andre, Fink, and Dez like this? What about the members of the Time that challenged and influenced him? Or why not focus on Prince's essential influences, Joni, Sly, Stevie, Jimi, Carlos, Miles, EWF, P-Funk, etc. If anyone thinks that W&L influenced Prince more than those aforementioned acts then they either only have listened to Prince and never checked out his influences or are smoking crack. As I stated earlier, this is not a swipe at W&L, its moreso a swipe at how some hardcore fans always have to squeeze a lemon.

I have a better topic, W&L helped to derail Prince's career by muting his genius. He had a window of opportunity to hit us with track after track of groundbreaking forward thinking material. Instead he either released those songs as b-sides or gave them away.
Discuss

Why is it insulting? If somebody feels that wendy and lisa or dez or jill jones were an important influence....let them.

sometimes i wonder if these discussions are more oppurtunities for folks to "vent" their personal beefs about others opinions then it is about their own...

just saying.

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

I agree with pretty much everything you said, even though I love Parade.

I agree these W&L threads always degenerate into a slanging match because for some reason they seem to stir up issue for race for some stupid reason.

Now here's where I take another view on what you put forth... Prince *wanted* to go in the direction he did with the Revolution-era music, W&L's input was welcomed and encouraged by Prince for a period. So, I agree with your post, but ultimately this was the route Prince chose.

I dunno, I can see both sides: I can imagine an album after Purple Rain featuring stuff like 'All Day, All Night' that would have kept Prince on top, both commercially and critically.... but then I think of the downside to that kind of attitude, and think of Rick James' stuff after Street Songs... Thrownin' Down is a great album, but talk about treading water!.... And I love Rick's music, but I think Prince is on a higher level than Rick, and Prince clearly didn't want to repeat himself.... So I can see the positives in him sidelining certain songs as b-sides or giving them away, or keeping them unreleased.

Eitherway, it's one of the most interesting topics for us fans to pontificate on, even if there would never be a resolving opinion that everyone can agree on.... such is history, it's usually a matter of opinion, not fact.
[Edited 8/31/06 12:31pm]

NouveauDance said:

100%

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

Thank you for articulating these points. One thing that Prince's pre- and post-W&L music has is FUNK and GROOVE. They just couldn't compliment him in those aspects. I have always wondered if it is the rock contingent that prefers W&L/Revolution Prince. I love rock, but I love it with a groove and some funk to it. The Revolution was Prince's least funky band. Musically, they were the least talented group of players who backed him. The Parade tour always lacked that trademark funkiness to me. When I watch the Purple Rain tour, I think of how much funkier it would have been with Dez and Andre. The SOTT/LoveSexy bands and the many incarnations of the NPG are far funkier than anything W&L could come up with.



Again, I agree. Prince has done a good job over the years of adapting to current trends in music while maintaining his own uniqueness. That is part of what makes him so great. W&L DO NOT have that ability - plain and simple. Today's music buyers don't know anything about real music, so I don't expect them to buy Prince. Nevertheless, he still remains relevant to me. When I hear Justin Timberlake's "Sexyback" I am reminded of some of the tracks on The Slaughterhouse. Prince can do mechanical funk better than most. Again, W&L cannot hang in this area.



I am once again in agreement. I love Prince when he is stripped down, funky and sexy. He doesn't need bells and whistles to display his greatness. If Wendy made that statement then she was really off her rocker. However, she was probably thinking of job security. Every good musician knows his/her limitations. She knows she can't funk. Did you see her and Susannah trying to dance on the Parade show at Cobo. I was like man, where is Cat? Obviously that was pre-Cat, but my point was that it was time for Prince to move on from the Revolution and get back to what he does best - the funk.

Finally, the W&L/Revolution folks never want to give the brothas any credit. So you won't see threads exhalting the talents of the people you mentioned.

What a ridiculous statement this thread poses. I'm guessing it's already been put forward, but Wendy and Lisa weren't whispering in Prince's ear during Dirty Mind, 1999, Sign o The Times, Lovesexy or Gold Experience, and, I would personally add TRC.

Yes, Mountains is a lovely song, but without in his catalog Prince still is the artist who defnied a decade, whereas without it, Wendy and Lisa are a pair of acoustic psychedlic mish-mashed cafe singers, at best.

sosgemini said:

Ummm! excuse me Raises hand what work have they done before or after Prince?
I'n not a Wendy and Lisa follower as you can tell!

Wall said:

No. Actually, they're true artists with true integrity, who don't feel the need to sell themselves to the highest bidder to put out an album. I actually truly respect Wendy and Lisa more as artists than I ever will Prince.

tonyat said:

Nothing before that I'm aware of. But after, they did at least four albums, that I'm aware of. The last thing I got that they did was Girl Bros, but that was a while ago, and I haven't heard anything since.

I completely disagree with the entire premise of this thread. Sign O' The Times, the Black Album, Lovesexy, Graffiti Bridge, the Gold Experience, the Truth, the Rainbow Children, and Xpectation were ALL released after Wendy and Lisa were fired. Those albums are his musical high points (along with Parade, Purple Rain, 1999, Controversy, and Dirty Mind). Plus, how much impact did Wendy and Lisa really have?

The albums Prince releases and the live shows are all about what Prince wants, his message, his styling, his voice, his vision, etc.

Pointless thread.

"If eagles have feathers, are they really carnivores after all?"

Thought I'd try to come up with my own non sequitur, too. It looks like fun... j/k


I think the influence of W&L is very clear in Prince's 1980s output. Whether he can still be considered a genius if you omit their portion of his ouevre is open to all sorts of conjecture.

I mean, he didn't write "Dolphin" with them, true. But he probably wouldn't have put out a "Dig U Betta Dead," were they still in his circle...

who can say?
[Edited 8/31/06 14:11pm]

bellanoche said:

statements like this are just as bad as the original post on this thread...

can we all just try not to speak on behalf of a larger group? expecially when we are just making up shit?



(that goes to both sides of this silly arguement...)

TheBigBang said:

I think the last official release was a bunch of instrumental tracks on the score to a movie, 'Something New'.
[Edited 8/31/06 13:25pm]

TheBigBang said:

Those of you who have had the opportunity to catch C.O.E.D. live please chime in! THAT IS musical Genius! And C.O.E.D. feat. Wendy & Lisa was simply PERFECT! So Wendy and Lisa = Genius???? A unanimous YES!

wonder505 said:

Oh, it's just MickG. He is a bit odd

Wendy and Lisa wrote Mountains, Prince wrote Condition Of The Heart, do the math. Which of two songs is more genius? Thank You. He did his best album, Sott after dropping those two wenches. hehe.

HoneymoonXpress said:

I just explained in my previous paragraph why. I mean all artists is going to have their creative peak and their not so groundbreaking and unsuccessful periods, and Prince is no exception. Like I said in my last paragraph in my opinion Prince's creativity had declined after 1988, and despite that he didn't have outspoken musicians like Wendy and Lisa and lesser extent Sheila E there to influence and challenge him, I still say that he is a genius more because of his musical capabilities and his creatism too. Even Wendy and Lisa themselves said so and I never recalled them said, 'Prince is no longer a genuius after he fired us.' But they admitted his songwriting capiblities wasn't the same after Lovesexy. They never said that he lost his skills, they felt he can do so much more if he wants to. Just like Michael Jordan. His best years was when he was with the Bulls but he didn't played nearly as good when he was on the Wizards team. But his unsuccessful years with the Wizards or when he went to play baseball doesn't take away of him being one of the greatest basketball players ever lived.

You may or may not agree but that is how i feel.

bellanoche said:

1) Take it from someone raised on funk and known to occasionally play it:

W&L funk heavily on:
"Skeleton Key"
"Crack in the Pavement"
"Officer"
"Are You My Baby?"
"White"
"Light"
"All Night"
"Secret God"

2) This W&L fan constantly talks about how talented and funky Andre Cymone is, how Brownmark was a killer bass player and how cool Dez's "Oneman" album is. That being said, W&L added a lot to Prince's stuff.

NouveauDance said:

It been like that since I first noticed this site in 1996 and also the same arguements happened when I used to spent a lot of time over at AMP, the good ole days when it was hype there. I usually be stuck in the middle when folks over there having shouting matches between W&L's heavy influence ruined Prince's music or Prince's music was only good when W&L and you get the idea.

7teen said:

So maybe it's Wendy and Lisa who are the REAL geniuses here, and not Prince.

HoneymoonXpress said:

stop that...