wellbeyond said:

I know I was just funin''...but in essence thats th e same thing you are comveying...becaue you were specifically conveying a black situation and going back and forth...saying iabtywu and laughing would have saved soem exasperation...( youre gonna say "but I wasnt exasperated!"...dont lie )
[This message was edited Sun Jul 21 10:08:11 PDT 2002 by rdhull]

rdhull said:

Yep his face and occupation fit to spew forth some hornets nest, right wing rhetoric on behalf of others.

"He's black, he's got to be correct on these things yeah?"

rdhull said:

But I wasn't exasperated...I was freaked..heh..

wellbeyond said:

Good point... "Oh my god!" is a very good "freaking out" statement... I'll have to work on that.
:LOL:

mzflash said:

This is a very good point. This is a good topic,i learned something from it.

IceNine said:

As is "you GOTTA be kiddin' me!!"...

"You can NOT be serious!!"...

And the oldie but goodie:

"I can't BELIEVE this!!"

While this is all certainly interesting, family name research does nothing or very little to improve the CURRENT status of blacks in America. We'd certainly be better off discussing what we can accomplish together as Americans to improve the quality of life for all our poor, including black Americans.

I do applaud HIGHRISK for having the balls to post an article that was sure to be discarded by some of our prince.org intellectual elite.

I do agree with Wellbeyond in that if blacks were given the slavenames or just simply chose the name...it still doesn't really negate what Prince is saying in general about how "blacks in America have been forcibly separated from their roots, ancestry and culture."

Although, I do think the author of this article addressed other points that nobody on here has addressed. He claims recent policies and practices of blacks are to blame for their current family situation...and economical...rather than a "legacy of slavery." I think he has a valid point there. Additionally, the practice of American blacks choosing Arabic names when converting to Islam and his subsequent discussion of slavery with blacks/Arabs is interesting. I confess to knowing nothing about that though would enjoy hearing some of our PhD scholars in African studies discuss in more depth.
[This message was edited Sun Jul 21 10:29:26 PDT 2002 by divo02]

rdhull said:

If you've followed WB at all on the Org, you'll know he can debate for pages and pages--this was child's play for the guy, not exasperated at all

wellbeyond said:
Could also be that your "history" and "heritage" are more readily available to you...and because of that, there's less of a desire to experience it...as where if it were a mystery to you, if were something "taken" from you, there would be more curiosity and more desire to understand your "origins" undiluted by something like slavery...just human nature, actually...(and by "you" I don't mean you personally)...


Well said. Sometimes you take the information for granted because is soo available. But for me (example) it's extremely difficult to trace my roots.

IceNine: Our heritage has a huge impact on who we are. We're all on a continuum. I would love to know where I come from, who my ancestors were, and what they did. I might find something in common with them, most importantly, it will help learn more about myself, and why I do the things I do, why I chose the career I did etc.

I found out I have a pretty famous uncle, not too long ago. His brother always came to visit, but I never put two and two together, until I got older and realized, my uncles name was Wilfred Little, whom has just recently passed about 5 years ago. I could have flipped when I saw IrishEcho's avatar a couple of weeks back, but I kept my cool, it would be pointless to start a debate with him.

You're heritage is important, I want my Great-great grandkids to know that I stood for something important. That I wasn't some average joe, who just lived life, paid bills and died...

Blue Cashmere
Don't Play Me

AnotherLoverHoleinYoHead said:

LoL...spoken like someone who knows me well...

wellbeyond said:

Good Afternoon, Mr. WB...

AnotherLoverHoleinYoHead said:

Yeah I know he is the king of debate--so far. But I meant exasperated as an exageration, thats why I stated he would say "but Im not exasperated" as a joke etc.

AnotherLoverHoleinYoHead said:

Good afternoon, Ms. Another...

Cornerman said:

***

Hi Cornerman,
Love you, but don't pin this one on Larry!
Larry, being in the faith since the 70's, would have
no problems along racial lines. Look into his history,
and you'll see inclusiveness in his works.
As a matter of fact,
Witnesses have never held to any kind of
racism (from either side), nor race pride. All races
of mankind blend beautifully among JWs, both nationally
and internationally.
There are no Black Kingdom Halls on one side of town...
White Kingdom Halls on another side of town...Hispanic on another.

This particular journey of Prince's is not a part of
his spiritual journey. Whatever he is trying to come to
grips with here, or whatever statement he is trying to
make is his own. Maybe he was unaware for a long time
of some of the pain associated with racial problems, seeing
as to how he was embraced by all ethnic groups from
the beginning of his career. I don't know that. But I
do know that my Brother, Larry, is not the source of
his efforts to focus attention on racial issues.
Ask anyone who has been a JW for a while.
There are neither nationalistic barriers, nor racial
prejudices among us...
rainbow children for real!

-
P.S. Not that anyone may care one way or another, but
I don't even know who all four of my grandparents were.
I only know my grandma Carrie, and that's fine with me.
Am I a terrible person?

-
-
-
[This message was edited Sun Jul 21 11:28:59 PDT 2002 by SensualMelody]

rdhull said:

Don't worry 'bout it, Rd...cuz I knew you weren't being serious..lol..

Interesting and intelligent. Thank you.



I have been taught two things that are contrary to oneanother: One, don't keep drudging up what happened yesterday, you can't change it. Second, if it keeps coming up...it is unresolved.

This may sound stupid but, when I was 8 or so, I saw the first airing of "Roots". I remember crying myself to sleep at night... so confused. I remember watching {crying} with my mom and saying "why? why? why?". I asked my mom many questions about slavery and she told me that she didn't understand why this would happen either. It broke her heart as it did mine.

It really bothers me deeply, when folks accuse others of not understanding based on skin color. That is a racial statement in and of it's self. It's a "human" issue.

I hope that we can all look forward and work on "human suffering" as a whole. I'm sorry for all who have suffered the human condition...

Berry said:

And you dont think that happens...not understanding due to skin color? Not saying that it should be always the major focus but you dont think it happens? Not that it means anything but I think some people cried watching Roots because of the tragedy of it all and some people cried because they were pissed.
[This message was edited Sun Jul 21 11:59:54 PDT 2002 by rdhull]

TheBluePrince said:

Thank you for sharing that Blue! Heritage is indeed important.
Funny that it only seems to lose it's national importance when talking about the heritage of African-Americans or Native Americans, But we are supposed to learn and hear about George Washington and the other founding theives of this country until we can't breathe!
Peace

HIGHRISK said:

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of Dr Sowell's point of view and that of Prince. But you asked the question of whether or not Prince has the evidence to back up his claims. My question is DOES DR. SOWELL HAVE THE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP HIS CLAIMS??? He's the one that's refuting the status quo and calling anyone who believes otherwise to be "ignorant", so where's his evidence???

I also cried when I saw Roots for the first time and it still makes me cry. I saw the children at my school (of African heritage) begin to walk with pride when for the first time they realized that their heritage existed before slavery. OUR HERITAGE EXISTED BEFORE SLAVERY!

Yes, we need to keep bringing it up, because still today a lot of African-American children don't fully understand that, nor do they fully understand what that means!

You know why else I cried and still cry? Because the chances are that I will never know what countries in Africa my ancestors came from, nor will I know what tribal nations they came from, or what languages they spoke or what their traditions were. Nor will I know what NAMES my ancestors cherished enough to pass along to their children, that came from their elders, that held great meaning and significance in their culture.

I've seen some very flippant answers on this thread about this subject, ones saying basically -- if your heritage is so important then go and look it up---
but without a FAMILY NAME to trace how far do you think we can get!? Slaves were property in this country, to be bought and sold without any thought to their feelings or families! Can you tract down every piece of property you have ever owned in your short life? Can you account for the whereabouts of every toy that you ever played with? Do you expect you great-great-great grandchildren to be able to do a better job of tracing those obejects than you can now? That is what Slaves were to slave owners, objects! And they kept only slightly better records of their property than you do of yours

Heritage is important. If we don't learn from our past, we will repeat it. And who is to say who will be on top when that time comes around.

Whether or not someone chooses to know their ancestry is indeed their right, but according to the records kept by the U.S. Government and it's citizens during the shameful act of Slavery, I don't get to know that even though I want to know. I HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW!

Peace

polymetric said:

I agree with your statements, please remember that I admit ignorance in this matter. On the other hand what I said about "many languages not one" was meant to cover the fact that the slaves were mixed together from different sections of the continent of Africa. Albeit that was forcibly done, but so was their being brought here, I figured that went without saying. Sorry for the confusion. Don't get me wrong, I understand and appreciate Princes' sentiments in that song. In fact that's about my favorite song on TRC. I even agree with his seniments in "Avalanche", (which appearently no one else does judging by all the "Honest Abe" crap that I keep seeing on signatures and Avatars.) I did find this article interesting, it was a perspective I hadn't seen.

HIGHRISK said:[quote]DOES PRINCE HAVE THE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THE CLAIMS IN THIS SONG? OR IS HE BEING A BIT PRESUMPTUOUS? YOU DECIDE!

It seems to me that u are misunderstanding the song Family Name. The point of the song isn't about Prince's family -vs the slave master chosing the family name "Nelson". The song is about the fact that as a descendent from Africa, his real family name is not Nelson, and now that the records of his true family name have been erased it is difficult for him to trace his roots back to Africa.

So yes, he's mad,. as are alot of African Americans about being stripped of their culture. Africa is a big place to go running around trying to find your roots. Alex Haley (author of Roots) was very fortunate to be able to trace his family tree back to a specific place in Africa. Other's of us would have a more difficult time. Fortunately for me, alot of native Ethiopians say I look Ethiopian, so at least i have a starting point to begin reclaiming my "stolen heritage"

As further research I would suggest the works of Frederick Douglas who actually was around during slavery, a man who bore witness to people being bought and sold, his commentary on family names being given to slaves is quite different.

SensualMelody said:

thank you yet again, sensual melody...it seems people blame larry or the Jehovah witnesses for anything prince does that they don't agree with...
prince has always had a mind of his own and ideas that don't always set well...that's entirely prince...he will continue to be prince...
give larry a break...if the issue is with prince say so...

TheBluePrince said:

Ya'll don't get it!!! He is MALCOLM X's NEPHEW!!! Most of you guys don't care, but I think it's extremely interesting. Especially since Jesus, Malcolm and 2Pac are my biggest influences!! What a mix, huh??!!?? Anyways, I'm curious as to why he didn't know for so long! I LOVE Malcolm, if he was my peoples' I'd tell everybody, especially my kids! Care to elab Blue P???

I don't know. Its a great song though.

Veli said:

Glad "BluePrince" didn't bite the bait and waste energy and upset on Irishecho's pathetic "statement" against his relative anyway...

IceNine said:

Ice I think it could be a cultural thing. And I say that because many Blacks that I know, not many across the land cause I can't speak for them, feel the same way. I AM who my ancestors WERE. I am a direct product of their lifes, loves, struggles and triumphs. What they passed down to their children eventually got passed down to me. I see my successes and reflecting well on my family and my failures as something we all feel. Doesn't mean I'm wallowing in guilt or the standard for the family but I feel a connection to those family members I know and those that I have been told about that goes beyond a simple that's my family. They depend on me and I depend on them and through their guidance, and as a result of those who guided them, I get to be the person I am today. I don't know just my opinion.

Berry said:

Human suffering, exactly.

While I really enjoyed reading this article, I didn't really know what it all means due to my ignorance. I like this though.

One of the many reasons for studying history is to prevent history from being misused for current hidden agendas. Names are just one of the things being misused in this way.(Thomas Sowell)

And while I am in conflict over the points mentioned above, right now I am leaning more towards the latter. That unseen unresolved issues, are passed from generation to generation, families repeating patterns over and over again... The past does influence the now. Its the now where the past can be ground to a halt.

I think "Eos23" is right; the point of the song seems to be misinterpreted in the first place. I think Prince's song seems to actually echo what the Dr.'s does in his article. A great song none the less.

As usual, nobody wants to talk about the FUTURE AND PRESENT, but prefer to dwell in the past. The recognition that black families have no family name because of past injustices does NOTHING to improve their CURRENT condition. What's the outcome we hope to agree on? Are white people going to all of a sudden provide reparations because they recognize the evil of their ways? No. At some point the whole discussion becomes a broken record. Additionally, I don't see how such a revelation is going to directly contribute to the improvement of American blacks either.

I think black Americans have a beautiful American culture that they have carried on thru generations. The lack of being able to identify a direct African connection does not preclude the sub culture that black people have developed in America. With all the mutt white people in this country who have no direct lineage to their European identity, you could almost argue that black people have a stronger identit & culture anyway.