skywalker said:

There's a HUGE difference between spending $14.99 for a CD at Wal-Mart and shelling out $1,000 or more for a computer.

When I was 17 and working minimum wage at KFC, I pooled my quarters and dimes to get the latest Prince album. That was back when he actually cared about EVERYONE getting to hear his music. I'm talking about EVERYONE. Young, old, rich, poor, sane or fucked-up-crazy...I shouldn't have to log on to anything to listen to music. Those of you content with your mp3 quality music, more power to you. I just won't do it. And for me it's not a financial thing at all, but I do think about those that don't have the means. Basically what the proponents for online music are saying is "Fuck alla y'all with no computers. Too poor to buy one, oh well. You don't need to hear no Prince music no way."

skywalker said:

Yeah, the internet is the ANTI-CHRIST!!!!!

Did somebody just post a picture of a horse?!

TheBigBang said:

I don't think that's quite fair. The albums Prince would normally release ARE released on CD to music stores. EXTRA stuff Prince would NOT normally release on CD are available online.

If the internet didn't exist, this stuff wouldn't be out there at all. How would that help non-internet users?

Music will still be released on CD as long as there is a profitable market in it. If someday music ceases to be released on CD in favour of only downloadable music - well, that's the same thing as what happened with vinyl to CD. I'm sure people were complaining about having to fork out hundreds of dollars for a CD compatible music system at the time, but things change and we adapt.

metalorange said:

Rave In2 The Joy Fantastic
One Nite Alone
The Chocolate Invasion
Slaughterhouse
Xpectation
CNOTE

That's six(that I know of) full album releases that are available for download or purchase on Prince's website of stuff he's done over the last five years.

The Rainbow Children
NEWS
Musicology

That's what he's released on CD to the general public over the last five years. There's a disparity there between what's good enough for people that have computers and access to the internet and people who do not. A person not owning a computer, willingly or otherwise, has access to an album like One Nite Alone, only if they're willing to break the law OR pay $200+ to buy it on eBay from the club member that was blessed with an extra free copy of the album because they joined the club. There's definitely a disparity there.

Also, the belief that everyone should have a computer is pure nonsense. If I weren't an artist and writer, I wouldn't even use my computer beyond posting here and at a few other boards on the web. But, my computer serves a purpose through my use of programs like Photoshop and Illustrator. If your computer isn't of use for anything more than checking your emails and posting on message boards AND belonging to the NPGMC, then you spent alot of money on something that serves very little purpose.
[Edited 9/21/05 9:28am]
[Edited 9/21/05 9:30am]

"...Basically what the proponents for online music are saying is "Fuck alla y'all with no computers. Too poor to buy one, oh well. You don't need to hear no Prince music no way."


Guess what?? That's not just proponents of online music saying that. It's the entire mass media/communications world.

It's like this-
If you cannot afford a plane ticket you cannot fly to Paris.
If you don't own a car, you cannot drive to Minneapolis.
If you cannot afford cable, you cannot watch ESPN.
Finally,if you cannot afford a TV, you cannot watch "Good Times". Now, is it JJ Walker's fault that you cannot watch his show (available only on TV that you cannot afford)? Should he come perform in your kitchen and Go "Dynooooomite!" in your house? Of course not. The problem isn't with Prince, but with rapidly moving technology and the economy.


"Rave In2 The Joy Fantastic
One Nite Alone
The Chocolate Invasion
Slaughterhouse
Xpectation
CNOTE

That's six(that I know of) full album releases that are available for download or purchase on Prince's website of stuff he's done over the last five years."

I know people who don't download music and have all of these albums one way or another. If you really want to you can get your hands on them-it's more inconvenient if you don't have the ability to download/burn music. You are here at prince.org so it seems as if you could make "friendly" connections for that stuff.

Perhaps Princes output over the past 10 years has not warranted sales through local distributers such as record shops,retail chains etc..
I know of at least 3 BIG outlets that won't stock Prince cd's for the simple fact that they do not move units!
nobody outside of Prince's loyal fanbase is in a hurry to purchase his recent output.menial fans will only buy "The Hits" or "Purple Rain" at best,they are not interested in his preachiness nor his disrespect of other religeons besides the witness movement.this is fact.
Artist's who are selling their music predominately through the internet or their very own websites are generally pandering to their loyal fans.there just isn't an audience purchasing their cds anymore.ask george michael...madonna...cher..etc.
we must eventually face the fact that since Prince can't seem to sell records anymore outside of his fanbase,he makes sub-par music better suited for the internet consumer.
I refuse to fork over my credit card for substandard music.

skywalker said:

That's not the same thing and you know it.

But I bet you anything if CBS announced today that from now on if viewers wanted to watch CSI, they had to join CBSTVC.com and download the episodes, there would be a lot of pissed off people. This isn't about being poor. This is about an artist making the decision to not make his music available to ALL of his fans.

IT IS not really that damn serious TRUST ME i havent heard the damn song either but u dont see me crying the damn blues now do u? please over Prince? its now even worth it honey. all we doing is making his butt rich any damn way. and frankly am tired of it.
[Edited 9/21/05 10:56am]
[Edited 9/21/05 11:00am]

lovemachine said:

no, this is Prince's choice, not his fault. there is a difference, except to those who choose never to take responsibility for their own lives and feelings and incessently want to blame others.

dumbass said:

Uhhhhh.....Right, It's his CHOICE, which ultimatley means, that it's his FAULT.

skywalker said:

Good points. If you want the product bad enough, you'll do what you have to do to get it.

TheBigBang said:

But it IS available to everyone. You just need access to a computer to get it. If I didn't have a computer I'd be at a friend or relative's house downloading.

TheBigBang said:

I'm trying to figure whether you are against music that is only available for download rather than on CD or whether you are simply against Prince having a fan club which gifts its members exclusive music? For me, having a fan club is no bad thing, if members weren't given exclusive offers, then what would be the benefit of joining? Looking at those albums in detail:

C-NOTE and Xpectation are experimental (for Prince) instrumental albums and would never have been released on CD as proper albums (frankly, I'm surprised NEWS got a commercial release).

Slaughterhouse and Chocolate Invasion are mostly tracks from an abandoned album 'High' which probably would have stayed abandoned if not for the internet way of releasing songs.

One Night Alone and Rave In2 were available at the time on CD - a benefit for being a club member though. And Rave In2 was essentially only a 'remix' album of one available in the shops.

Basically what I have been saying is that there is music that is available via the internet that wouldn't have been available otherwise. It is allowing Prince to put out more music than he used to without the financial risks inherent in experimental projects that have a full-on world-wide release.



I never said everyone 'should' have a computer - only that like CD players it is a natural progression and evolution. 25 years ago CDs were invented, but hardly anyone could afford CD players - but now everyone can afford CD players. 15 years ago hardly anyone had the internet - now look at it. It's not because people are forced to buy it, they want to buy it because they come to realise what a cool tool it is with many benefits and applications. It's like microwave ovens, you don't really need a microwave oven if you have a normal one, but people bought them in droves when they were invented because they could see the advantages they provided.



I think if that happened, I would have the sense to realise it was because market forces had forced CBS to make CSI a download only show. And I would make a decision on whether I thought the price I had to pay to see the episodes was worth it or not versus my desire to see them. It's only the same as some show I like being cancelled because the viewing figures are too small and not bringing in enough revenue. It may be annoying, but I understand why it happens. These companies (and Prince) don't have to supply us anything, it's a choice.

Like you say, Prince has made a decision to supply music to a guaranteed market on a profitable basis rather than supply music at a loss to all his fans. I think that's an eminently acceptable and logical decision which I respect.
[Edited 9/21/05 12:09pm]

I'm not going to spend a dime extra to upgrade my computer or read books or take classes on computers simply to get a few damn songs off the internet. I've heard some of the samples over there and, just as I thought, they weren't worth the time and effort that Prince put into making them let alone someone putting time and effort into getting them.

If these songs were any good, yes, I might put a little more time and effort into getting them. When Napster was free, I spent hours downloading songs like "Extraloveable", "Heaven", "Purple Music", etc. Then I went to the trouble of rolling the computer into the other room, moving the heavy ass entertainment center, sorting through the numerous wires, hooking the computer into the stereo, and recording the music onto cassette tapes. I later recorded the cassettes onto CDs when I got a CD burner (which was a stereo component not a computer burner). It was a lot of trouble to do it but I was willing to go through the hassle for some "good" Prince music, not some tired shit like he has on his site.

Yes, the songs on his site are extras and I could care less because they are no good anyway. However, if he decides to sell ALL his music from now on through the internet exclusively, then I have a problem. His latest albums (in the stores) are good enough to buy but they are not good enough for me to go through all that hassle to get them off the internet. Music, by most artists, is still mainly sold in stores. This internet bullshit is in its early stages and why the hell should Prince be a pioneer in it. He has countless fans that can't afford a computer. Also, who the hell wants to give their credit card number out to be harrassed by telemarketers in the future. I bought my stereo equipment over the internet and have been harrassed by telemarketers to the point that I ask them "how big is your dick, when can we get together daddy" over the phone to make them nervous so they will hang up. Another thing, not all Prince's fans even have a credit card. There are also many music lovers that have no interest in computers whatsoever so why the hell should they spend $1000 or more on something they could care less about just to get a few songs?

No Prince is not obligated to do anything but if he wants all the money he can make from ALL his fans, he is. This isn't the first time he's turned his back on particular groups of his fans and I'm sure it won't be his last.
.
.
[Edited 9/21/05 12:33pm]

metalorange said:

I'm against making something like a full album exclusive, because it excludes the common fan. It really does. Get past the fact that YOU have a computer and think about the people that don't. Even if it isn't for financial reasons, there are people out there that never have, don't, and never will own a computer YET still enjoy listening to music. So yeah, I know, they'll "find a way" to get the new music, if they feel like hunting for it. But, I'll tell you, they should have to hunt for anything. Prince should make his music available to everyone doeineffect, and not to only people who have or can get to a computer. I'm not against a fan club at all. I think the idea of the NPGMC isn't a bad one. I just think it sucks that it's an online only affair.

In my mind, I might as well not even have a computer for internet use because I'm on dialup and two hours on the computer is really only an hour actually doing something useful, and the other hour was waiting for images and banners to load. Like I said, I did download SST and BNO because it was for a good cause. But to download a full album? It's just not going to happen.

I'm not just bitching for myself either. Truth be told, out of all of his internet releases, the only ones I haven't heard up to now is Chocolate Invasion and Slaughterhouse, thanks to a few generous Orgers and/or 'Quakers. I just wish Prince wasn't going out of his way to make his fanbase smaller. It's small enough as it is. Get that CD on the shelf, so little Peggy Sue can see it, and make the decision to purchase it. As it is, a release like One Nite Alone is only going to be purchased by someone looking for it specifically...online...at NPGMC. And I think that's wrong.

metalorange said:[quote]

TheBigBang said:

I'm trying to figure whether you are against music that is only available for download rather than on CD or whether you are simply against Prince having a fan club which gifts its members exclusive music? For me, having a fan club is no bad thing, if members weren't given exclusive offers, then what would be the benefit of joining? Looking at those albums in detail:

C-NOTE and Xpectation are experimental (for Prince) instrumental albums and would never have been released on CD as proper albums (frankly, I'm surprised NEWS got a commercial release).

Slaughterhouse and Chocolate Invasion are mostly tracks from an abandoned album 'High' which probably would have stayed abandoned if not for the internet way of releasing songs.

One Night Alone and Rave In2 were available at the time on CD - a benefit for being a club member though. And Rave In2 was essentially only a 'remix' album of one available in the shops.

Basically what I have been saying is that there is music that is available via the internet that wouldn't have been available otherwise. It is allowing Prince to put out more music than he used to without the financial risks inherent in experimental projects that have a full-on world-wide release.




I agree on this part.
But I don't have a credit card,because I don't need one
and I don't wanna get one just so I can download Prince-music!!!
And U always have xtra costs with a credit card.
So what do I have to do???
Right,search the illegal download sites And if I'm lucky
some generous P fan has put some songs free to download.
That's how I got Xpectation and High.,by putting
all the songs 2gether thanx to some orgers
who put the tracklist in a thread.

If I could pay without creditcard I would surely buy
CI and Slaughterhouse.
But what will happen if every artist/record company
think this way because they are scared to lose money on a record??

I want to buy CD's,in the shop or on the net,
with cover and booklet,I don't wanna manufacture it!!

vainandy said:

The quality of the music is not really relevant to the discussion of whether Prince should make all the music he releases available in stores. But if you are correct and the standard of these songs is so mediocre, then that is one of the best reasons for Prince NOT to release them as proper CD albums, because they would sell so poorly, get terrible reviews and harm his reputation! Better, then, surely, to put this stuff out where only his hard-core fans can get at it?! You are defeating your own argument for making this music available for all!





It seems strange to me that one minute you are saying you don't have the equipment or ability to download music, and then you say you downloaded stuff from the old Napster. If you had the ability to do that then you should have no problem with the Musicology store, it's not that difficult and you don't have to be a club member.



Perhaps because Prince has always been an innovator - that's why he's produced such outstanding music over the years. Better to be an innovator than to be left behind, surely?



I don't think that it he purposely 'denying' fans without computers the music, simply exploring the possibilities of the internet for those that do.



That may be true of some sites, but I can say that I have never been harrassed by telemarketers or received spam as a result of the club.



Why did you do that rather than go to a store and buy it? Was it actually MORE hassle to drive down to the store? Or could it be that the internet gave you some advantage, such as a lower price? Which is exactly the same sort of benefits Prince is utilising.



Again, it not a case of denying those without a credit card access to this music, it is merely the most convenient established way to buy things over the internet.



Prince isn't asking them to. He is merely offering a useful additional service to those that do own a computer and internet access.



So he's going to be making all this profit, after huge production, manufacturing and distribution costs, on music that you think is so bad you fans like you wouldn't buy it anyway?! Do you think his standards of music will suddenly improve simply because he puts the albums in stores? Would you rather he not release experimental music at all and just concentrate on the one album a year? Isn't it preferable to have the option to buy the experimental music AND the proper album rather than just the one?

TheBigBang said:

Well, I keep explaining the business reasons why much of this recent stuff would be unprofitable if released any other way, but you keep ignoring those points, so what more can I say?

I tell you what. You Cannot beat a real cd. Getting downloads off NPGMC maybe legit coz youve paid for them but they still feel bootleged. Actually buying a real properly manufactured cd is worth so much more in every sense. And do away with the digi packs too. Lets have a real jewel case cd release.

Paisley4u said:

Well, until they invent a way of teleporting cash down the phone lines, credit cards are the only practical solution right now, and that's not Prince's fault.



If they are convinced they are going to lose money, logically it would be financial suicide to release it that way. That's just the way market forces work, like it or not. I get the impression fans would be quite happy for Prince to lose money on every album as long as it is in our hands as a full-on CD. It would be like he was paying us to buy the album! And that's just business nonsense.

Prince has the money to make music and videos that will never see the light of day. Surely pressing a limited amount of CDs for his fans wouldn't hurt his pocket one bit. Does Ani DiFranco make a shitload of money off of her CD releases? I don't think she does, but damned if I don't see a new Ani DiFranco release on the shelf every time I blink.

metalorange said:

I noticed that NPGMC have included a downloadable cd insert with SST so if u put it on a cdr u r well away ..... i must admit id love 2 have the Chocolate Invasian with a proper cover & cd artwork , but i agree with what some people have put ..... he cant honstly release all these albums on cd ..... most of them would only sell 2 the hardcore & as most harcore like me r already NPGMC members , whats the point ??

PurpleKnight said:

Agreed, Also there are disks available to teach anyone how to use a computer. I see them on infomercials all the time. Downloading music is simple to do, If you know the steps and if you have the right equipment.

I was responding to someone that was basically telling me if I am having all these problems with my computer that I should spend more money, learn more about it, or basically do something to correct the problem. I was making my point to him that there's no reason for me to spend more money to upgrade or try to learn more if the quality of the music is not worth the hassle in the first place. I later went on to say that I would have a problem with it if Prince decided to release ALL his music through the internet.

I have no problem with Prince having little extras on the internet. I just don't want it to eventually get to the point that he goes through the internet exclusively, even with his better material. Even if I didn't like the music, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that don't have computers that may like it. They shouldn't have to suffer because it's only available on the internet. There are more people in this world than just myself.

As far as me having the means of getting the old stuff off of Napster, I never said I didn't have the equipment or means of getting it. I explained what a hassle it was to do it because my computer does not have a CD burner. I still could go through the same hassle but I'm not going to unless the music is absolutely slammin'. It's not worth it.

As far as buying my stereo equipment off the internet, that was a major purchase. It wasn't a simple song here and there. It was two turntables with pitch control and two CD players with pitch control. Components like these are not available in stores in my area unless you go to a store that sells actual musical instruments and those stores are twice the price I paid off the internet. That purchase was worth the hassle.

There's nothing wrong with Prince being an innovator but he doesn't need to eventually forget those that have loved him all these years that don't have computers. As I said before, my arguement is not for myself, it is for them. I have a computer and if Prince had music on the internet that tempted me, I would put forth an effort. The world does not revolve around me though. There are others less fortunate.

TheBigBang said---

"That's not the same thing and you know it."

C'mon now. My analogy was this-

not owning cable TV = not having the technology to see your favorite shows on HBO

not having computer/npgmc = not being able to hear Prince's left overs etc.

It's a fair comparison.


"... I bet you anything if CBS announced today that from now on if viewers wanted to watch CSI, they had to join CBSTVC.com and download the episodes, there would be a lot of pissed off people. This isn't about being poor. This is about an artist making the decision to not make his music available to ALL of his fans.."


Your argument is flawed.

TV shows OFTEN have exclusive material(outtakes, deleted scenes, interviews,etc.) that can only be viewed online and pay to view. The main show is still widely available to everyone.

Prince's proper releases are STILL WIDELY AVAILABLE ACROSS THE WORLD. NPGMC and his online music are extras for the die hards. Thats what it is
[Edited 9/21/05 16:08pm]

Vainandy said-
"....I was responding to someone that was basically telling me if I am having all these problems with my computer that I should spend more money, learn more about it, or basically do something to correct the problem. I was making my point to him that there's no reason for me to spend more money to upgrade or try to learn more if the quality of the music is not worth the hassle in the first place. I later went on to say that I would have a problem with it if Prince decided to release ALL his music through the internet."

vainandy- what I was saying was that you should either:

A. Fix your computer problems one way or another so you can have the npgmc music that you don't like anyway.

B. Quit bitching about it, and don't fix it or spend the $$$$.

I don't want the NPGMC, at least not yet anyway. Now if Prince were to wise up and put some good stuff on it, I would be royally pissed because I would have to probably buy a CD burner for the computer, which wouldn't be bad, probably about $50 or $60. The problem comes with the damn spyware and spam that gets into the computers.

People love to say that computers are the 21st Century. Well, that's true but computers have major flaws. Prince, or the entire music industry itself does not need to convert to computers until these problems are taken care of. This is not like the days of converting from vinyl to CDs. CD players do not have ad companies sending spam that will alter the performance of the player or maybe erase the CDs. Computers have major problems. There needs to be laws against these damn companies that are ruining people's computers. A computer is a major purchase.

I could buy a brand new expensive computer that already has a CD burner (if I had the money) and spam and spyware could mess it up also. It's not just my computer. At work, there have been countless computers that have been continuously worked on because of viruses and spam. Some of them, the technicians have said are "unfixable". I love my music and I would hate to see all music convert to computers while computers are so vulnerable. I don't have the money to be fixing that shit continuously. So, yes, I will continue to bitch.

vainandy said:

You seem to have a real hang-up about spyware! I don't really see what that has to do with the NPGMC since that site doesn't install any spyware or adware on your computer, and you don't get spammed through it. Those sort of annoying programs are usually installed when you sign upto dodgy websites or download some dodgy software - like Kazaa - so you get what you get. Stay clear of those sort of sites, don't open any .exe attachements in your email, and you should avoid most virus, adware and spam completely. I'm certain the reason these computers you speak of were effected was due to careless users naively downloading any old rubbish.

I can't deny there are many virii and suchlike out there. Certainly, it is necessary these days to protect your computer from these threats - and there are many programs out there that do a great job for a reasonable price. Annoying that we need them, but I think you will wait forever if you are waiting for the internet to be completely cleaned up. Avoiding the internet completely because you 'might' catch something is a lot like never crossing the road because you 'might' get run over. We improve our chances of not getting run over by looking left and right and following other simple rules, and it is the same with the internet, apply a bit of caution and you should be alright.

But yes, it can never be 100% safe, Being cautious also means making sure your hard-drive is backed up often so that at anytime should you catch a virus you can't fix you can erase your drive and reinstall the system.

I've never come across a virus that targets CD-burners and never heard of a virus or spam that erases CDs! Sure you're not exaggerating? What even if they're just sitting on your shelves?!

Besides, you are here now on the internet now, exposing yourself to virii while you read, visiting the NPGMC site and downloading tracks from there is no more dangerous than visiting here and a lot safer than downloading stuff from p2p networks.