I understand where you're coming from with this thread. I think Prince just wanted to switch gears in the 90's. He somehow felt including rap into his music was a good idea, and it all started going downhill from there. I think at this point he's just out of new ideas. He's a music machine, so he's constantly producing. Unfortunately it's quantity over quality. I think he's just trying to be known for creating more music than any other artist in history. Interesting goal, but he'd be better off taking a break.

JamesS said:

That sounds pathetic.

Aaahh, refreshing to read a post that actually captures the real point of this thread. I can't believe how involved people have got themselves in semantical discussions and whatnot; what we are talking about here is a musician who has - to some degree - lost his magic touch. Most fans agree with this. Why has it happened? When did it start to happen? It's an interesting topic indeed. For those who disagree, please focus on the reasons for your standpoint instead of your personal definition of the word "genius".

this has got to be one of the oddest threads i've ever seen on the org, on one hand, the poster decides prince has to keep topping himself over the course of 30 FUCKING ALBUMS to be considered a genius. on the other hand readily says that for 10 years, from 78 to 88 he topped himself with every album

but THEN says he hasn't had much of an influence on the current music scene, or any scene it seems. despite him changing the landscape of pop music in the 80s, heavily influencing all sorts of genres of music in the 90s and today he is arguably the most influential musician in the business at the moment.

muzik magazine put him on the cover as the ultimate dance icon and pronounced him the true king of pop and the most influential figure in music, putting TWO of his songs on their cover cd to show his influence saying "his influence on dance music genuinely cannot be underestimated"

basement jaxx have come out and said all the critics... is one of the most influential songs in their career, and the whole 1999 album is known as a very influential dance record, as is the song controversy

consider that a couple of years ago a dance cover of i would die 4 U, basically the same apart from a slightly different bass, and an intro and outro, tore up the clubs, i didn't go out for about 3 months without hearing that song at least once, and it went top ten and would have feasibly been number one but for an issue with the retail single or something

in the top twenty singles in australia this moment a cover of nasty girl is sitting pretty

didn't beyonce incoporate nasty girl into one of her recent songs?

outkast and alicia keys inducted prince into the RNR hall of fame, listen to their fucking records, alicia keys covered how come u don't call me

even the fucking outhere brothers ripped off the tune of erotic city (which has been covered by acts from seminsonic to KORN) for boom boom boom (let me here you say "waoh - WAOH! )

how many rappers cite purple rain, i know NAS has done it lately, how many fucking songs did tupac cover or interpolate?

the whole idea of having proteges and shit, prince was famous for that in the 80s and now eminem and 50cent and dre do the same. eminem and missy namecheck prince in their singles

tori amos covers purple rain and condition of the heart. even elvis costello covered pop life.

art of noise did kiss. the whole jimmy jam and terry lewis sound came from prince's influence, and they cite prince as the all time greatest musician.

and all this is before Sign o the fucking times. which is regarded as the most influential album on the genre of hip hop that wasn't of the genre. if i was your girlfriend has been covered by TLC and god knows who else. the whole idea of sparse beats and drum machines etc, which he did in 1999 as well, has been used by timbaland who are the hottest producers in the world at the moment, and the fucking neptunes too don't forget!

on top of this, the film purple rain, a cultural phenomona, it doesn't matter what he did with the following films, 'cos this film was a fucking inspiration to musicians everywhere, look at eminem with 8 mile, yet eminem was the biggest star on the planet when that came out, yet relative to ticket prices, only did about the same business, maybe abit better, than purple rain, and prince had 3 top 10 singles in america and thats it when that came out.

and yes, his 90s stuff trailed off to alot of people, but it's not the point. name me one artist who kept it up for longer than prince. if we accept princes golden years as 78-88. through as many albums, 11 or something? not to mention the time albums, sheila E, madhouse. bowie? no fucking way, some of his albums in the 80s are fucking dreadful.

and for the record, you still get people coming out in support of his newer stuff, the lead singer from alien ant farm (odd i know) said his fave album ever is the TRC, and he had to buy a new cd cos he wore the first one out.

so to say prince has not had a lasting effect on music, when he's been arguably the biggest influence spread over the industry as a whole for about 20 years, is crap.

and this is just the music, what about the business, the name change was mental, but snoop dogg used to be called snoop doggy dog, but his record company owned his name, so he had to change it...like prince did. that whole saga was influential in highlighting to people about masters and so on, the way he did it might have left him open to mockery, but now he has been honoured by the NAACP with a vanguard award, only the third time in history it's been given, and the first time it's been given to a black man, or a musician.

now the music rules have been changed after last years musicology tour, an act that had many musicians and bands looking with interest to see if it would succeed, if billboard didn't change the rules, everyone would be doing it, but now you need to have a clause to buy the album or not in the ticket price, but now it's a legitimate way to sell records, because of prince, an idea he had since 1996 with emancipation.

now, as people have pointed, his one off album deals seem to be yet another major way he is influencing the industry, and how many times do bands sue their record label to get out of contracts, incubus tried to do it last year.

i'm sure there are more examples of how his music is influential, people like duff from GNR cite prince as their ultimate musician etc and cover his songs. but seriously, i can't believe i have written all this! i need to get back to revision (and looking for my life, which i seem to have discarded)

softandwet said:

Beautifully worded

catharsis said:

Indeed...

The "real" point of this thread is stated in the title of this thread: Prince no longer "deserves" to be called a genius. To argue that this thread is really about stating that Prince isn't putting out music as good as he used to is ridiculous...you can make that claim (and it's been made ad nauseum around here) without proclaiming that he has no right to be called a "genius"...when you make a declaration like that, you gotta do a helluva lot more than simply say "His stuff isn't as good anymore". For starters, you gotta expect to both explain, and have others explain, what a genius really is...you can't have a discussion about "genius" without defining it first, or else the discussion is useless. To roll your eyes at posters on this thread for doing just that shows how lost you are...not them.
[Edited 2/26/05 8:04am]

Something did (or, more accurately didn't) happen after 'Lovesexy'. If you listen to all his stuff up to SOTT and 'Lovesexy', there is true 'artistic growth'. After 'Lovesexy',Prince seemed to lose the plot (been said many times I know, because it's pretty much true). Great moments abound post 'Lovesexy', and he seemed to re-find his way with TRC and ONA tour era.

In short, on 'Purple Rain' through to 'Lovesexy', Prince was well on the way to becoming something more than just a very talented pop star. He was becoming a true composer. Then he stopped. Don't know why. In some ways, I would have loved to have seen him develop more, learn more music theory. I mean, much of 'Lovesexy' would sound awesome re-arranged to be played by a big band or orchestra. Shame he stopped moving towards being a composer and instead started to chase trends more, eg hip hop, something quite alien to his style.

Had Prince continued to evolve his semi-avante-garde blend of musical influences, I think then he might well have done something very important - important in all music, not just the tiny field of mainstream pop. Brian Wilson might have done it in the '60s had 'Smile' been released, Lennon/McCartney with George Martin might have done it had they continued, Jimi Hendrix might have done it if he had the chance to pursue his futuristic rock-jazz-classical-blues freak thang in an orchestral direction.

Since the early 20th century music has been divided between 'popular' and 'art' styles, and there has been a great need to reunite these two as they should be. Prince might just have done that, and I can't see anyone else around today remotely capable of taking up the mantle.

I don't care if Prince is a genius or not. The work speaks for itself. Just a shame he kind of stepped back (at least it looks like that in hindsight) after 'Lovesexy'.

devilstwin said:

There is no doubt Prince HAS been influential and, yes you can hear his influence on many artists today.

and then he said:

I really doubt that anyone can say that he has had been so influential.

which is it?


Only a journalist could so misquote me! My position is that Prince has been influential in that he has been inspirational to artist who have wanted to cover his records or to some extent mimic his sound.
What he hasn't done is provide a blue print for a new kind of music which to me one ought to do to be acclaimed a creative genius. He got close to this with 'Lovesexy' which many people accept appears to come from a different place - it is an incredible mismash of funk and gospel with superlative songwriting throughout.If this incredible record had somehow been taken further to create something like funky gospel then which had then been taken up by others who imitated a genre would then have been created. To me it is a lost chapter in music

Handclaps I thought I answered you here!

but you seriously need to retitle your thread

Dictionaries, like language change over time, besides this it depends which dictionary you use. Mine describes the ability required to be 'extraordinary' which is again arbitrary. It is impossible to be completely objective since we are not dealing with science here. However what I am saying if that if you want to use the word with reference to music meaningfully use it to denote someone who totally transforms music for generations, not just someone who has an impact by being influential. I still think Prince is a fantastic composer and musician, and I do enjoy his music on the whole, I just don't think that he has delivered as I once thought he would
[Edited 2/27/05 9:11am]

Dictionaries, like language change over time

So now you're saying the dictionary is wrong, why didn't I see THAT one coming

, besides this it depends which dictionary you use.

but what if the dictionary you're using 'changes' too? You can't have it both ways.

Mine describes the ability required to be 'extraordinary'

So Prince is an ordinary artist to you now according to the dictionary you use?
On an offday, Prince is an extraordinarily gifted artist, something recognized by other musicians as well as fans.

which is again arbitrary.

Again your point on this is?


It is impossible to be completely objective since we are not dealing with science here.

Now the definition of being a genius depends on science? There's no absolute in being objective about any given subject, but that's besides the point and is a weak support for your argument/assumption that Prince has lost the right to be a genius. Children can display genius levels of intelligence among their peers, and are done a service by being put in a class that challenges their ability to learn. Yet the child hasn't done anything as yet to transform or changes whatever field of learning they excel in. YET THEY MEET THE DEFINITION OF GENIUS.

However what I am saying if that if you want to use the word with reference to music meaningfully use it to denote someone who totally transforms music for generations, not just someone who has an impact by being influential.

Now you're telling everyone how to use the word genius, when it's already been established that Prince has met, and continues to meet the definition of genius.
He just doesn't meet your personal standard of the word. Period. Again, whether he meets your interpretation (not definition) of genius is what's irrelevant and not being objective. The latter portion of Prince's body of work doesn't float your boat or isn't as 'groundbreaking' or 'earth-shattering' or 'pushing the envelope' so to speak, so 'Prince has lost the right to be called a "Genius."' I see where it's impossible for you to be objective.

I still think Prince is a fantastic composer and musician, and I do enjoy his music on the whole, I just don't think that he has delivered as I once thought he would

I will say this again, I respect your statement here, but this does not loss of genius make because you don't think Prince doesn't deilver 'like you once thought he would.'
[Edited 2/27/05 9:11am]

Aaahh, refreshing to read a post that actually captures the real point of this thread. I can't believe how involved people have got themselves in semantical discussions and whatnot; what we are talking about here is a musician who has - to some degree - lost his magic touch. Most fans agree with this. Why has it happened? When did it start to happen? It's an interesting topic indeed. For those who disagree, please focus on the reasons for your standpoint instead of your personal definition of the word "genius".

I mostly agree with EvilWhiteMale here: it could be quantity over quality. But it can't be the whole answer since Prince made even more music back in the day. It almost seems more like a lack of focus these days. He is too restless and finishes the songs too quickly (but it doesn't necessarily result in greater quantity overall). The Lovesexy songs, for example, were loaded with twists and turns, different layers and attention-grabbing novelty. The new songs are almost too straightforward. So I too think that he should take a break and let the ideas mature in his head. And then spend plenty of time in the studio, maybe letting the song rest for a little while only to get back to it later.