XxAxX said:

Question: what has Morris Day, Andre Cymone, and Dez Dickerson put out lately? I would say that the "proof is in the pudding" when stories like these are bandied about. Prince has managed to produce on average about two albums worth of material for the last twenty years -- and like Clarence said, "all different you know."

ok ok i knew i should never have said a word up in here.

this isn't the first time the subject's come up though... http://www.prince.org/msg/7/99719

devilstwin said:

To really have a profound everlasting effect on music you have to simply be around for a number of years doing somthing simply supstanchel...saving souls!?!?!, which Prince has done!!!!! without sex or child molestation, lol (MJ-MD)

No names PLEASE...

GOD wil save US all...

NOT U

devilstwin said:

I think Prince is a musical genius,but that's just my opinion.Some people are calling Kanye West a genius.

XxAxX said:

It's not that I am closed to the idea theat Prince steals from others, it's the fact that your story is full of "...I can't name names, but a guy from 30 years ago, who once knew a guy who knew a guy knew Prince..." It'd be a lot more convincing if it were--- "I know Jimmy Jam, and he said Prince steals like a mofo...".

Also, what famous musician hasn't been sued by others claiming to have written their hits?

skywalker said:

true...i've heard tons of these stories since i've been here. somebody at tatters told me a really good one about a princespotting™ in uptown back in the '80s...dunno if i've told ya'll about it yet, but it's funny as hell.

XxAxX said:

Other than Levi Seacer, Jr. and that assclown Tony M. who's sued him for taking credit for their work?

I understand where you're coming from with this thread. I think Prince just wanted to switch gears in the 90's. He somehow felt including rap into his music was a good idea, and it all started going downhill from there. I think at this point he's just out of new ideas. He's a music machine, so he's constantly producing. Unfortunately it's quantity over quality. I think he's just trying to be known for creating more music than any other artist in history. Interesting goal, but he'd be better off taking a break.

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

Here is a real story for you:

A friend of mine works at Dry Cleaning place that used to do Paisley Park's dry cleaning. My friend, being the bad person she is, tore off a button from an article of clothing and kept it. I saw with my own eyes-the truth ruth. Pathetic yet kinda cool. Kinda.

PS---everyone is finally agreed that Prince is , in fact, a genius right?
[Edited 2/24/05 17:41pm]

skywalker said:

Byron said:

co-

Anxiety said:

Well, damn...I don't blame 'em for not posting over there...you need a kite and everthang to post on the npg site.
[Edited 2/24/05 18:09pm]

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

true that!

skywalker said:

Who?!

I could be childish and say, "No, he hasn't!"

But to give a serious response --

No, I don't think he has. I hate comparing him to Mozart because they write 2 entirely different styles of music....but what they have in common is their versatility. Mozart will take the same piece of music and arrange it with different instruments, make it slow or fast, or add voices, and it almost sounds like a different piece of music. One of my favorite pieces is Variations on K265. It's simply variations on Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star -- simple, but wonderful.

That's what I miss from Prince's 12" (please, no bad puns here! ), and his remixes. I love hearing all the different things he could do with the same song. For example, "The Beautiful Experience". I've played some of those versions around friends who say, "Ok, DAMN! I have never heard that s**T before! Where can I get it?" When Prince releases a single, you know that is how he wants it to sound. Not 'this is the only way I can do it'.

He's always experimenting -- rap, rock, blues, jazz, acoustic....hmmm, what will happen if I leave the bass outta this song.....how will this sound if I take the horns out.....what if I add a cowbell? And while some songs hit with some, and miss with others, it's never the same thing. You never know what to expect. And as I've said before, this is one of the reasons that I am along for the ride. Because he NEVER does what I expect!

As far as the industry at large -- most of them never hear all the stuff that we as fans have, so I don't expect them to come from the same place that we do. As someone said though -- the minute he dies, everyone is gonna be all over his s**t. He's gonna be sampled more than George Clinton!

Ro

**LoveLife, LoveGod, LoveSexy**

Whatever you think of his work, he'll always be a genius. And most people don't understand geniuses anyway, especially not in music. Most of you only like Dirty Mind up thru SOTT anyway, but I'd bet the rest of his music won't be popular for another generation or so.

Prince is Prince.

If I was to be childish I'd say----


Fuck Mozart. He was buried in a paupers grave. Beethoven and Bach were better (among others) anyway. I think comparing Prince to him is somehow more stupid than comparing MJ to Prince. They are from different worlds. The thing Mozart and Prince have most in common are the edwardian ruffles. Mozart could never do "housequake" and Prince has a motorcycle.

PS. most of what people here know about Mozart is probably from the movie "amadeus" anyway.

this has got to be one of the oddest threads i've ever seen on the org, on one hand, the poster decides prince has to keep topping himself over the course of 30 FUCKING ALBUMS to be considered a genius. on the other hand readily says that for 10 years, from 78 to 88 he topped himself with every album

but THEN says he hasn't had much of an influence on the current music scene, or any scene it seems. despite him changing the landscape of pop music in the 80s, heavily influencing all sorts of genres of music in the 90s and today he is arguably the most influential musician in the business at the moment.

muzik magazine put him on the cover as the ultimate dance icon and pronounced him the true king of pop and the most influential figure in music, putting TWO of his songs on their cover cd to show his influence saying "his influence on dance music genuinely cannot be underestimated"

basement jaxx have come out and said all the critics... is one of the most influential songs in their career, and the whole 1999 album is known as a very influential dance record, as is the song controversy

consider that a couple of years ago a dance cover of i would die 4 U, basically the same apart from a slightly different bass, and an intro and outro, tore up the clubs, i didn't go out for about 3 months without hearing that song at least once, and it went top ten and would have feasibly been number one but for an issue with the retail single or something

in the top twenty singles in australia this moment a cover of nasty girl is sitting pretty

didn't beyonce incoporate nasty girl into one of her recent songs?

outkast and alicia keys inducted prince into the RNR hall of fame, listen to their fucking records, alicia keys covered how come u don't call me

even the fucking outhere brothers ripped off the tune of erotic city (which has been covered by acts from seminsonic to KORN) for boom boom boom (let me here you say "waoh - WAOH! )

how many rappers cite purple rain, i know NAS has done it lately, how many fucking songs did tupac cover or interpolate?

the whole idea of having proteges and shit, prince was famous for that in the 80s and now eminem and 50cent and dre do the same. eminem and missy namecheck prince in their singles

tori amos covers purple rain and condition of the heart. even elvis costello covered pop life.

art of noise did kiss. the whole jimmy jam and terry lewis sound came from prince's influence, and they cite prince as the all time greatest musician.

and all this is before Sign o the fucking times. which is regarded as the most influential album on the genre of hip hop that wasn't of the genre. if i was your girlfriend has been covered by TLC and god knows who else. the whole idea of sparse beats and drum machines etc, which he did in 1999 as well, has been used by timbaland who are the hottest producers in the world at the moment, and the fucking neptunes too don't forget!

on top of this, the film purple rain, a cultural phenomona, it doesn't matter what he did with the following films, 'cos this film was a fucking inspiration to musicians everywhere, look at eminem with 8 mile, yet eminem was the biggest star on the planet when that came out, yet relative to ticket prices, only did about the same business, maybe abit better, than purple rain, and prince had 3 top 10 singles in america and thats it when that came out.

and yes, his 90s stuff trailed off to alot of people, but it's not the point. name me one artist who kept it up for longer than prince. if we accept princes golden years as 78-88. through as many albums, 11 or something? not to mention the time albums, sheila E, madhouse. bowie? no fucking way, some of his albums in the 80s are fucking dreadful.

and for the record, you still get people coming out in support of his newer stuff, the lead singer from alien ant farm (odd i know) said his fave album ever is the TRC, and he had to buy a new cd cos he wore the first one out.

so to say prince has not had a lasting effect on music, when he's been arguably the biggest influence spread over the industry as a whole for about 20 years, is crap.

and this is just the music, what about the business, the name change was mental, but snoop dogg used to be called snoop doggy dog, but his record company owned his name, so he had to change it...like prince did. that whole saga was influential in highlighting to people about masters and so on, the way he did it might have left him open to mockery, but now he has been honoured by the NAACP with a vanguard award, only the third time in history it's been given, and the first time it's been given to a black man, or a musician.

now the music rules have been changed after last years musicology tour, an act that had many musicians and bands looking with interest to see if it would succeed, if billboard didn't change the rules, everyone would be doing it, but now you need to have a clause to buy the album or not in the ticket price, but now it's a legitimate way to sell records, because of prince, an idea he had since 1996 with emancipation.

now, as people have pointed, his one off album deals seem to be yet another major way he is influencing the industry, and how many times do bands sue their record label to get out of contracts, incubus tried to do it last year.

i'm sure there are more examples of how his music is influential, people like duff from GNR cite prince as their ultimate musician etc and cover his songs. but seriously, i can't believe i have written all this! i need to get back to revision (and looking for my life, which i seem to have discarded)

This really is a non-argument. Firstly, the definition of genius is purely in the eye of the beholder, it is just that the more beholding eyes there are the greater the affirmation. Secondly, this is a Prince fan site - a site of die-hards, fanatics and Prince worshippers. So by default, Prince IS a genius according to the majority here.

I think the only way to be regarded as a true genius in terms of their legacy is to have a general global consensus on the subject. Einstein, mozart etc etc have a global consensus on the subject of their genius. Everyone knows, everyone agrees and no one questions it.

As an experiment try playing that game with friends, family, strangers... whoever. Tell them to respond with the first thing that comes into their head when you say a word to them. The chances are, if you say Einstein they will say genius. If you say Prince, they will say Purple Rain... or "who?". I dont think Prince has joined the global concensus on the genius front.

That is not to say he isnt a genius, just to say he is not yet globally affirmed to be one and thus, does not have that status as a legacy. But do not fear, he has the accolade from many of his peers and many greatly respected people in the business, and at this stage of his life thats pretty good going! Most genius' have to die before they get any kind of accolade at all.

However, there is a tendancy to give the accolade to anyone who dies young or, just dies, when really it is not deserving. This brings down the real meaning and worth of the term genius for everyone else... Michael Hutchens? Genius?


Who said Sgt Pepper was influenced by Smile?
Who said Lennon was a genius but not McCartney? How do you make such conclusions? Once again, the perception is created that once dead, genius is easier to attribute.

When Prince dies, his true greatness will be revealed and reveared...

softandwet said:

Thanks so much for that Passionate statement. CASE CLOSED!

devilstwin said:

What makes you think that he hasn't done this already? Have you not paid much attention to 2004? This is not meant as a dis, but I'm just curious as to why you'd think that with all the people coming out of the woodworks just to get a glimpse of him. So many new and older artists have come forward to talk about his genius. If that kind of praise isn't somewhat valid even when it comes from your peer group, then I don't know what is. How many artists can claim that they had such a profitable year this late in the game? Also, many of his former critics are now changing their tune once again.

You can hear his influence in pop, hip-hop, r&b/soul, rock, and techno to this day. By your own criteria, he has met that. We all can name several artists that have said flat out they there were trying to re-create a similar feel to a particular Prince song or album, or admitting that a song of his inspired a particular song, or just saying that his music has impacted their lives. YJust from a list of younger artists alone, one can name Nikka Costa, No Doubt, Erykah Badu, The Roots, Usher, D'Angelo, Maxwell, Alicia Keys, The Neptunes, Amel Larrieux, Angie Stone, Common, Nelly Furtado, Mos Def, Timbland, Missy, Ginuwine, Jill Scott, Res, Van Hunt, MeShell Ndgeocello, Kelis, Outkast, Tupac, etc. The list is huge.

When you have younger artists praising you constantly, and can claim a lot of older musicians as fans such as Carlos Santana, Miles Davis, Foley, Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, Wendy Melvoin, Patrice Rushen, Robert Plant, Little Richard, The Rolling Stones, Stevie Wonder, Marcus Miller, Lenny White, George Clinton, Bootsy Collins, Victor Bailey, Lenny Kracitz (not so old), Ray Charles, Patti LaBelle, Chaka Khan, Larry Graham, etc. its safe to say that you still have an impact on the direction of music.

Granted, I think he has definitely lost momentum during the 90's. However, I think in addition to his own mistakes in his career and choices in music releases, Ps problems were also increased by Warner. They looked at him as someone that needed to be checked for rocking the boat. When Prince left them, I think he underestimated the things Warner had done to get his music out to the listeners. He has a decent amount of music that was released over the 90's that the casual Prince fan is just now trippin on.

Yes, the Beatles' influence still remains to this day. But even the surviving Beatles themselves can't say that they have continuously made a significant influence on the direction of music after they broke up.

The main problem with how Prince is perceived by most is that they didn't know he was still around. Many people believe he hasn't been releasing music after all of these years. This is because he has been out of the spotlight and his Warner feud.
[Edited 2/25/05 6:28am]

I'll try to restate what I'm getting at. There is no doubt Prince HAS been influential and, yes you can hear his influence on many artists today. However once upon a time it seemed to me that he would deliver so much more, perhaps even reinvent the genres he was working in in the same way Einstein reinvented science, Beethoven classical music, the Beatles rock music. I really thought he was going to be on THAT level. I really doubt that anyone can say that he has had been so influential. He may do in the future, but the signs are not good because his music has lost some vitality

devilstwin said:

so if paul mccartney's music were to have lost some vitality over the years, would that tarnish the label of 'genius' from the beatles? because i've got news for ya....

devilstwin said:

and then he said:

which is it?

devilstwin said:

Many people have said that and still do amongst his fans, musical peers, and critics.

Perhaps you just don't really listen to much music in the genres that he has influenced? Ever heard of the Minneapolis sound? Dude was at the forefront and one of its primary players to shape the sound. People play in Minneapolis and give props to Prince just for being in his city.

devilstwin said:

My question is who came up with that theory? 27 years and still kicking w/o the drama that other artists are kicking at us such as um let me see, MJ perhaps

devilstwin said:

Since when is genius measured by how popular you are and how many records you sell? Also I believe Mozart ran into the same Playa hating machines in his time as is being portrayed here.

hmm..oh wow...for a subject thats "old and been done before" there sure are a lot of people who took the time out to create thoughtful and intelligent responces to it...