I doubt if he considers himself confused now, but I'm sure he'll be alright.

OdysseyMiles said:

He'd be too confused to know he's confused.

I'm a bit confused here. Are you saying that, since you stopped with Lovesexy, that you find the spirituality in the subsequent albums contradictory? If so, then why are you citing Batman and Graffiti Bridge as being in the same veign? (I agree that they are, but I'm confused by your comments)

Okay, I'm even more confused. There's a whole lot of intervening years and albums between GB and TRC, and LOTS of spititual journeying there. You say you stopped with Lovesexy, but then say TRC is what lost you.

As for TRC "contradicting" Lovesexy, I think that's subjective. I'll get to my thoughts on the matter later, but I don't think its a total contradiction at all. There's a whole lot of similar themes that crop up on both. The biggest difference is that TRC is rooted in a more specific doctrine. This doesn't mean that Lovesexy had no doctrine whatsoever. It is, at the very least, rooted in Christianity.

Not dissing you here, just trying to understand where you are coming from.

I'd disagree with this strongly. If you listen to the lyrics, Prince is seducing a bride on her way to be married, and his basis is soley physical attraction. He just wants her for sex. Nowhere in that song is anything but pure lust represented.

Head is a love song.

67TBirdHeartAttack said

Is this y it won't b played again?

love

Anji said:

Good point that "Lovesexy" was described as a feeling: a sense of knowing there is a loving God. That's it, nothing else. Its a pretty broad statement that most people of any Christian denomination can get behind. To think that he wouldn't get deeper than that seems a bit naive (I'm NOT insulting anyone here, so please don't take offense). Lovesexy was, in my mind, a turning point for him, but it wasn't the beginning or end of the quest.

The fact that he was rooted in Christianity, then looked into eastern spirituality, and then to jw... he was most defenitely confused.

I'm not passing judgement on him, just making an observation.

The only doctrine that Lovesexy had and I am repeating myself here again and again, Lovesexy is is the feeling you get when you fall in love - Love is God and God is love. No other docrtines, rules or anything needed, just follow this, follow your heart.

67TBirdHeartAttack said:

Then you must be talking about "Lovesexy" the song, the concept, vs. "Lovesexy" the album...

Because in Anna Stesia, he goes on to say (importantly, in my opinion):

Save me Jesus, I've been a fool
How could I forget that you are the rule
You are my God
I am your child
From now on, for you I shall be wild... etc etc.

Is that not what you might call "doctrinal?"

From there on, he explored what that meant, to be "wild" for Christ, etc... And how not to end up a fool, apparently...

Another important factor:

There is no way we can call Lovesexy the culmination of his spiritual beliefs, because all evidence points to the search for a soulmate as an integral part of his spirituality. He calls her a Savior, for Pete's sake!

If anything, "The Holy River" ties up this aspect of his belief... Accompanied with so many other songs on Emancipation. He continues to build on the concept of "Lovesexy" until he comes to the point where he can truly be content with himself... having realized that the soulmate he so sought was actually INSIDE of him, a part of him already...

The above issue - personal spirituality, soulmate, battle with Warner Bros - is all part of the same battle, the same search. As Ralph Waldo Emerson said:

"The man is only half himself, the other half is his expression."

("The Poet," 1844)

I'm getting this all down on paper.

I don't think Prince fully understood that he himself held all the answers.

Again this is just my take on it, it all makes sense to me and makes me happy.

Head is a love song. If two people are in love then Head is no different to holding hands

JediMaster said:

I disagree completely as well. Head is a love song. Anyone that has ever made love knows that head is probably one the most pleasurable and intimate acts and also takes the ultimate in trust. Without getting crude here, you gotta trust a girl to put you in where her teeth are and vice versa. Trust who do ya, trust what makes you a real lover. Ring any bells?

Marriage is the ultimate statement to the world that you love someone. She starts by giving him head, he takes it until he can't take any more and comes on her wedding dress. She's a fool she marries him instead so now morning noon and night he gives her head. He now gives and gives to her as they are married and this is what marriage is about. Giving and giving.

Sheesh I have this so clear in my head but am struggling this morning to be eloquent and concise with words!

Heiress said:

No I do mean the entire album, I feel he points to Jesus becuase we all know Jesus to be a man. Man is what we all are male or female. Jesus is the form in which God showed us how to be. As men/humans. Jesus is ourselves. God is inside of us. God is the love that is inside of us. For us humans to understand things we have to make them a tangible thing. Alphabet Street is putting the right letters together. You notice when the alphabet is recited there is no G. The letters mean nothing in sequence, we miss G we miss God but when we get to I we say I love you, which makes it complete, we've put the right letters together and made a better day. I won't go on to explain all songs. But just reiterating I do mean the whole album. Sometimes the most simple explanation is the right one, but our own curiosity means we have to explore it further. I don't think Prince fully understood that he himself held all the answers.

Again this is just my take on it, it all makes sense to me and makes me happy.

To further my argument, he played this song during the FIRST half of the Lovesexy 88 tour, where he played his lustful, carnal songs. These ultimately led to his "death" at the end of "Bob George" and his "resurrection" with "Anna Stesia". The second half of the show is then about love and God.

Anji said:

No, because Prince now follows a religion that doesn't allow this kind of song. It is viewed through different eyes now.

JediMaster said:

That's a good tip... I'd like to hear more details about the Lovesexy tour.

This is on video/DVD, is it not?

Heiress said:

It was released on home video in Europe only. (For some strange reason, the tapes are mislabled with the second half being marked part one, and vice-versa). It is heavily bootlegged outside of Europe.

The shows started off with "Erotic City" and wound through such lustful fair as "Head", "Sister", "Jack U Off", "Superfunkycalifragisexy" and "Dirty Mind". In the first half, he is a total player who cares nothing about love, and goes about seducing women any way possible. At one point, during a reprise of "Controversy" Prince would stress the lines "was it good 4 U? Was that what U wanted me 2 be?". Towards the close of act one, he appears in full pimp regalia for "Bob George' which culminates in him shooting his lover (played by Cat Glover). He is then surrounded by police (played by band members). The song ends with "Camille" realising he is about to die, and saying the Lord's Prayer. The stage then goes dark. At many shows (though not on the video), he would give a speech about how that person we just saw is no longer him. At the show I saw, he stated "was that what U wanted me 2 be, Houston? Well, what if I wanna be somebody else?". He would then talk about the need for God, and would expound on the concept of "Lovesexy". "Dig up, I did not come 2 preach. We can still have fun, but lets make sure we have fun 4 the right reasons". He would then close act one with an extended version of "Anna Stesia".

After an intermission, he would return with songs like " No", "Lovesexy", " Wish U Heaven", "The Cross" and hits like "Let's Go Crazy", "Kiss" and "Purple Rain". The shows often closed with an extended "Alphabet St" and Prince quoting from "Positivity": "hold on 2 your soul, we gotta long way 2 go".
[Edited 3/8/05 6:59am]

JediMaster said:

"We got a long way to go," is that it? Interesting way to close the show!

Can I quote you on this eye-witness account?

How does that indicate that he's confused? Now I'm confused!

Again this is just my take on it, it all makes sense to me and makes me happy.

Well, that is definitely YOUR take. I really don't think that jives with what the album says AT ALL. Prince declares that Jesus is his God, and that he is his child. Sounds pretty much like a Christian doctrine to me.

67TBirdHeartAttack said:

You've made some excellent points about Lovesexy. I understand where your coming from, about this great album.

Now, I wouldn't say "Head" is a love song, but to each their own.

JediMaster said:

Jedi, you know I think you're as cool as the other side of the pillow and all, but you're a little off the mark here.

I personally do not consider the bible to be "doctrine."

The bible is the one and only true Word of God. The lyrics "Save me Jesus, I've been a fool," are Scriptural... based on FAITH, not doctrine.

Heiress said:

How does it NOT indicate he was confused?

What could he have possibbly looked for, in all these other directions, that could cement, what he already relaized was truth?

Searching, searching... not finding what he was looking for... doesn't know where to look next. Mmm, sounds like somone confused to me.

Okay, good point. My point is that Prince is expressing a particularly Christian belief with this song. I don't agree with 67TBird's assertion that Prince "points to Jesus because we all know Jesus to be a man". If that were the case, then it could be argued that P was just being spiritual, without connecting to any particular form of spirituality. He is declaring that Jesus is his God, and that is directly tied to the Christian spiritual viewpoint.

I also do NOT agree with 67Tbird's statement that Christianity is simply an organised, man-made religion. It IS, but its also a form of spirituality. What Christ taught WAS spirituality, not religion (I would actually argue that a rigid, inflexible relgious doctrine is contrary to what Christ taught, but that is a whole other can of worms I'd rather not get into here. I'll save that one for the P&R forum). To me, Lovesexy was about a man discovering a truly personal relationship with Christ, and thus God. He had a relationship with God prior, but it was not as deep and abiding as the one represented here.

It appears to me that you feel that Prince had found the ultimate truth in Lovesexy. What seems to be apparent to most of us is that Prince was not satisfied with the idea alone that "love is God, God is love". It simply wasn't enough for him. That doesn't make him confused. In order to develop a more personal relationship with God, he had to dig a little deeper into the Word and gain more understanding for himself.

OK Oddysey, let me get one thing clear... I'm talking about the 1988 Prince, not the Prince we see today.

In 1988, despite what you want to think, Prince did find the ultimate truth. This isn't just my feeling, I know this... Prince did too. He was so positive about it, he undertook the whole Lovesexy tour, just for this reason. Same reason he did the Batman soundtrack the way he did, as well as make the Graffiti Bridge movie.

Now, at some point in the early to mid-90's... this is when Prince must've gotten confused, that he started searching elsewhere.


You're right in the point that he should've dug a little deeper into the Word and gain more understanding. Had he done this in 1988, he could have cemented the ulimate truth, I was talking about.

Since he did not do this, he started searching elsewhere. This was a very dangerous mistake on his part, as he did not know where to turn..

I think it's great that he has taken his bible study deeper... I have no issues about that. In my humblest opinion, his mistake took place when he incorporated doctrince into the picture during the late 90's... this was where he stumbled.

I cannot speak for him today. He has kept his beliefs more "under the rug," so to speak. If he has gained a higher understanding than before the late 90's/early 2000's, he hasn't spoken about it verbally, not even in some of his latest music.

One can only hope...as a fan, and knowing the power and ability... he has to reach the masses, that he stand correct.

The bible is the one and only true Word of God. The lyrics "Save me Jesus, I've been a fool," are Scriptural... based on FAITH, not doctrine.

Faith in Jesus for what reason? That he's God, or God's son?

Faith that he died for our sins? He said "save me."

All of this enters into the domain of doctrine.

Heiress said:

What?

I missed something... when did the bible become doctrine, as opposed to God's Word.

I guess I don't get it, since I don't follow man-made doctrine in particular, and separate the bible as God's Word.

LovesexyIsThe1 said:

Here are some meanings of doctrine, from my American Heritage dictionary/thesaurus:

Something one believes or accepts as true : conviction, belief, feeling, mind, opinion, persuasion, sentiment, view, faith, tenet, creed, doctrine.

A religious belief or set of beliefs : doctrine, conviction, credo, creed, dogma, faith, gospel, precept, teaching, tenet, theology.

A system of belief, principles, or opinions : creed, dogma, faith, religion, philosophy, doctrine, credo, canons, gospel.

Heiress said:

Well, here's where the confusion has been. Lovesexyisthe1 has been using one definition (A religious belief or A system of belief), while I've been using another (something one believes or accepts as true). Given Lovesexy's definition, I can see how he objects to its use pertaining to the Lovesexy album. Thanks for the info, Heiress. That certainly helps out the discussion.

Here are some meanings of doctrine, from my American Heritage dictionary/thesaurus:

Something one believes or accepts as true : conviction, belief, feeling, mind, opinion, persuasion, sentiment, view, faith, tenet, creed, doctrine.

A religious belief or set of beliefs : doctrine, conviction, credo, creed, dogma, faith, gospel, precept, teaching, tenet, theology.

A system of belief, principles, or opinions : creed, dogma, faith, religion, philosophy, doctrine, credo, canons, gospel.

I think sometimes the word "doctrine" can evoke the idea of something very dogmatic, when in fact that is not necessarily the case.