.

But it is not that easy for other artists out there.

For one, Prince has the bargaining clout to ask for ownership of his masters. Despite the fact that he wasn't selling well during the 90's, he is still considered a "superstar" who can sell big time. "So, you want to own your masters, Prince? No problem, as long as we can profit along with you."

But do any of you really think that (most) other artists out there have that same bargaining clout? Really, they don't, not by a longshot. If you are just starting out you won't get a record contract if you want ownership of your masters. You will get laughed at. Prince then says: "Oh, but what do we - artists - still need record companies for anyway? New technology allows artists to record and distribute their music all by themselves."

So that's why Prince still has his own record company and a deal with one of the majors? Right... Artists still need record companies, especially the little ones who aren't publicly known enough to sell enough cd's on their own to make a living. But also the big ones, who need a big international distributor to do all the necessary work for them, like Prince needs Sony for Musicology. Of course, there are exceptions (like Ani di Franco or Manu Chao for example), but they are scarce, because you must be extremely talented, lucky, displined, patient, not caring too much about money and fame and very hard working to make it that way.

One last important problem involving "owning your masters" I will mention here (one that Prince never mentions): Legally it is perfectly possible for artists to own their masters (legally put: to own the copyrights in their sound recordings). But, once you are - for example - talking about a band of several artists who own their masters, all these individual artists then will have ownership rights. All of them must then decide what happens to the recordings. All of them then have to agree with eachother. This is and/or can be a very unpractical situation and one of the reasons why many bands transfer their copyrights to a record company, besides getting a contract and the inherent possible money and fame.

Yes, money and fame y'all. That's the main reason why most artists don't own their masters. As long as society sees those things as important there will be artists craving it. and as long as there will be artists craving it, there will be companies standing ready to exploit them.

Therefore, a true change in the music industry can only come from a change in society.


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[This message was edited Fri Aug 20 3:57:10 2004 by Abrazo]

Anyone wants to dispute that?

Abrazo said:

Nope, especially this part:

Abrazo said:

Abrazo said:

i totally agree with u...which is y i think prince should start helpin out younger folks who r just startin out...he got npg records or whatever its called nowadays. he should start signin people...other than his idols...if any of yall r on npgmc one of yall should suggest this on a forum..i kno he read em.

OdysseyMiles said:

Great, I like that, but that's no debate.

So, let's try and debate a follow up question, shall we?

In what way does society need to change in order for the industry to change along? (hasn't society already changed a great deal due to the 'digital revolution'?)

Moonwalkbjrain said:

but then he should give them creative control AND let them own their masters right? just like he himself wants...

(think he will?)

Abrazo said:

yea he should...and he probly will because i think he'd understand...hell how can he NOT?

Like it or not u still have to go thru record companies!!

You cant be selling ur CDs at niteclubs forever where is that gonna take u!! They have the marketiin musles to get u on the radio on MTV and shit!! You just cant do it alone no way !! Even if they join npg records what will that do to u?? Nothing!! He cant even get his own songs played on radios how is he gonna get other acts the visibility!!

Well he started having problems with his record company only after his sales started to fall off!! isnt that all too familiar look at MJ he is callin his record company racist coz invincible didnt do well!!!

So basically its just frustation on his part becoz he feels he didnt get the markettin muscle from the marking dept.

The reality is after so many yrs u r considered old and the young kids dont like to hear u!! Even look at madonna she isnt doin good only 650k for american life
u cant forget the cost of videos and making the album when thats all removed there is no profit at all!! No wonder she was feuding with WB

BlaqueKnight said:

BK, I agree with a lot of your points. it's a lot easier for an artist who has money to talk about the importance of owning your masters. I can't imagine walking into a room with a couple of executives having only a "guitar and a dream" to my name and expecting to tell them what I want, when I'm essentially asking them for money.
I've wondered though, if it were possible to create some arrangement where you can get your masters back after a certain period of time, or under stipulations regarding a certain amount of financial success. Guess that would take an entire legal team to work out. As far as your friend who said he "only wants to be a star", I think that's kinda sad. To each his own, but that whole thing is so fleeting nowadays. I'll take riches over fame any day. You can invest money and make it work for you, but fame can go away in a heartbeat.

Moonwalkbjrain said:

Exactly, how can he NOT?

maybe ask Chaka Kahn?

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[This message was edited Fri Aug 20 11:42:39 2004 by Abrazo]

OdysseyMiles said:

Thanks for your views OdysseyMiles and BlaqueKnight . I agree with most of it.

BlaqueKnight: "Independant success is a lot less lucrative in general than major label success, but it can also be more beneficial. You keep everything. The downside is you are responsible for everything. Its much more work."

Exactly, and Prince doesn't even have to do all the work. Cuz he's got enough cash to have his own company and lawyers not much has changed for him I guess.

BlaqueKnight: "I talked to a friend of mine about this who is an artist. He said "Man, I don't even want to own my masters That's not important to me. The label can have my songs. Once I start gigging, I'm not gonna stop. I'll put it down for as long as I can. I just wanna be a star." I was like "Damn, I forgot that not everyone places so much value on their music". There is that perspective."

I am very familiar with this perspective, because I have heard it say many times before by artists, especially musicians. It wouldn't surprise me if Prince used to say exactly the same things.

Odyssey""I've wondered though, if it were possible to create some arrangement where you can get your masters back after a certain period of time, or under stipulations regarding a certain amount of financial success. Guess that would take an entire legal team to work out.

You don't need an entire team. (Just me will do. )

What you are talking about is an "exclusive license of copyright" instead of a "transfer (of ownership) of copyright".

There is an important difference between the two but they can be both be written down fairly easily.



"--
[This message was edited Fri Aug 20 12:02:39 2004 by Abrazo]

BlaqueKnight said:

You are right and that's exactly why your friend is wrong about not wanting to own his masters. Don't misunderstand me; I can see why he is saying it, but I don't think he truly realises what he is doing.




Oh really? and where is that gonna get you?


Nah, he should have asked his masters back or threaten to go to another record company when they offered him the 100M.



lol.. well some of them really are...



right, so how does that change?


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[This message was edited Fri Aug 20 12:00:49 2004 by Abrazo]

BlaqueKnight said:

or better yet he shoulda gone independent in 78 instead of signin a deal @ all.



yea that too.

BlaqueKnight said:

thats the point..its kinda messed up 4 prince to be sayin go independent and ur just startin out...thats y i said if prince really wants to help artists...if he wants them to get most of the money and keep their masters and all the good stuff he should help them..he should start signin folks to his label.

Abrazo said:

To address the first point, if you have the startup capital, not making a deal in the first place can get you much fatrher along than signing blindly. Master P did it. NWA did it. It can be done. If you're gonna play majorly instead of regionaly, you have to sign some sort of deal, be it distribution or whatever, but making a label sign your company can give you much more power than signing an artist deal. It really depends on the terms of the contract. Little phrases in the contract and things like the terms of the cross-collateralization can either give you the freedom you need or wreck you completely. I think Prince could have gone independant in '91 if freedom is what he really wanted. Ani DeFranco was independant for years and gigged her ass off. Righteous Babe Records was all hers; and she earned it. I don't for one minute believe that Prince was seeking independance. He wanted carte blanche to do whatever he wanted to do with his songs. "Freedom" so to speak. No label is going to give you that after investing hundreds of millions in you. Whereas philosophically, I agree that his songs should be his, I also see the label's logic.
Now, How does that change? It will when we see the first superstar to arise from internet sales.
Oh boy! When THAT day comes, the music biz will change big time. People have to change things. I think it will happen sooner than we think.

BlaqueKnight said:

Yeah it can be done, if you have it. But that's just the problem. Most just don't have it.



It always depends on the terms of the contract.


He wasn't busy with being free in those days.


Excuse me, "was"?



Well, they also made hundreds of millions selling his recordings. Probably a lot more than the investments. Leaves you only with the question who should rightfully own the recordings (his "songs"are his btw)



I am looking forward to that day! Then, indeed it will have been the people/society that has changed.

And only then will the artists really start to look outside the industry and the industry will really desparately try change along.

That will be a good day for music.


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[This message was edited Fri Aug 20 14:07:21 2004 by Abrazo]

I've rejected 7 borderline contracts from Major Labels,
why?
Mainly because they all wanted to do the same thing?
Change your image, take away your creative control,take away your freedom as an artist
I've learned that the industry isn't looking for talent, they are looking for another hit
that will be all over pop radio...
i've caughta lot of heat from band members and former band members on my choices.
But im not in it for money
Im not in it for notirieghty or fame,
i just love to play music, and i will not be exploited so some harvad grad can make a quick buck
hell if i could do it for free, i would and i have!
I hold a part time job, go to college and gig around with the band
and you know what if i had it my way?
it would always be this way...
i have this mentality mainly because Prince and other artist have suffered in the past
Prince is a master

"To follow the path:
look to the master,
follow the master,
walk with the master,
see through the master,
become the master."

its about Fun
not fame...
[This message was edited Fri Aug 20 14:44:01 2004 by Luv4oneanotha]

Moonwalkbjrain said:

If Prince had the kinda loot needed to succesfully promote a major release he wouldn't be aligned with Sony right now.

Prince is droppin knowledge 2 all musicians especially the new 1's. He's telling them that their Master tapes r the most important thing that they can own. He knows that it will b hard 4 them bcuz of the way that this corrupt industry is run. So that's y P is trying 2 change it and come up with alternate ways of being successful doing music. P ain't talkin shit he's talkin sense and cents!.....Golden Parachute! And if i was P back in 91, y would i go Indy when i'm tryin 2get ownership of my Masters Black Knight? He's indy right now and owns his Master tapes since Emancipation so u r wrong about P not going Indy back in 91 bcuz it would'nt have been neccessary if WB's would have agreed 2 deal with P and give up ownership at that time or agree 2 give them back in the near future. There r white artist who had not owned their Masters and after a long productive career with a Record Company was allowed ownership of their Masters. P thought that it was time 4him and WB's did'nt even want 2 discuss or negotiate a compromise. They showed him no respect so P is doing what he has 2 do! And now he benefits more from the great sacrifice that he made by changing his name and doin his own thing.
[This message was edited Fri Aug 20 15:37:12 2004 by ELBOOGY]

ELBOOGY said:

The question is where are these new artists gonna get the $$$ to kick off their careers?
There are bands/singers/performers that own their masters right now and don't have a pot to piss in, so what the hell are you talking about? Prince's "knowledge dropping" is more of just throwing salt in the game rather than actually helping. He may be spoiling it for labels, but in the end, he still hasn't helped the artists much.
"Yay, we own our masters! We didn' sell out to the man!" "dude, how are we gonna sell our CDs now?"
That's the conversation that happens. As I said, Prince's advice is suited for artists that have already attained a degree of success. As Abrazo's title states "Owning your masters is easy for PRINCE" Until you can answer the above question, maybe you should review the "knowledge" being dropped. As I have stated, the alternative is to go the Ani DeFranco route. You'll have to gig your ass off, but it'll be your sh*t from jump street.
The problem is so many young dreamers think that a record label is going to just hand them a multi-million dollar career and not get anything out of it. If it were that easy, everyone would be an entertainer.

BlaqueKnight, I agree with you on most points...very well thought out responses.

Indeed, you must first be known to profit from owning your mastertapes...or else
owning them doesn't do you a bit of good because they won't be worth anything but
sentiment. Prince's masters, on the other hand, are worth much money, mostly because
of WB's distribution, promotion, and exposure...Business 101, Prince can have them back,
at a price...luckily he also has an 'out', he'll get them back, one by one, soon enough.

The way the system is set up now, the only way to get the exposure is to
sign with the big boys first. Although it seems that young artists should sign for the shortest
contract possible, make their mark, then cut all ties and then market themselves.

BlaqueKnight said:

Oh so u're telling me that the only way P would b helping these young cats is 2 foot the bill? He can't do that and get his Masters back which is his ultimate goal. U tell the truth when u say that they would have 2 gig their ass's off but again i say P is showing them an alternative and that's all he can do at this point in his career. Now my Q 2 u is, what r the other legendary artist who own their Master's doing 2 help out this new generation of artist? I don't here Sting or David Bowie saying shit about what these young artist need 2 do,and u think that P has all of the answers. No he does'nt and thats y he's droppin the knowledge that he knows about. He's referenced Ani Defranco in numerous interviews and he's even said that 4 some artist the Traditional way of the Record Biz is more suitable 4 some acts while other acts need an alternative existence. It's up 2 that young artist 2 find out 4 themselves which path 2 take in their careers. P is just letting them know that the most precious commodity that they have is their MASTER RECORDINGS period!

OdysseyMiles said:

I understand both of your points of view, but, see you guys are missing the REAL point.....Its not about P, having money and TRYING to get his masters after the fact. The biz has to change so that the compensation scale is changed from the BEGINNING!!!! If the record company has to adjust the original scale to reflect the loss of the master recordings, then so be it. So much music these days is MADE by the artist, with MONEY being their motivating factor. VERY few, make music for the art or for its pure form. Its all about BLING-BLING, bitches and hoes. The RC's, sign people based on their MARKETABILITY, not necessarily on talent. It costs the RC so much money in trying to BUILD and MOLD an artist, that now days they have to rape and pilage the profits to recover their costs. If both worked together for the purpose, then the masters wouldnt even be a question, because a PARTNERSHIP, instead of a working relationship would be formed. Of course, one could say that P has the best of both worlds cause he's a millionaire NOW.....he wasnt that fortunate when he first started, hense his problems of today. The rap artist argument isnt even an issue, cause even when the rap artist gets his product out to the public its VERY limited in distribution, and then when its all said and done....he still has to sign and let the mass marketing media/corporate take his "mark" for work that ONLY he/them can be allowed to access.

All I'm trying to say is that, its not realistic to expect a new artist to get his masters when first signed. But, that is not a problem of the artist being naive, its the nature of the business from the days when MOST Americans were not versed and knowledgable about basic business principle. Its literally a PIMP/HOE business, cause the RC doesnt do anything creative in the process. The biz is designed so that the PIMP(RC's) are basically the ONLY ones who can be successful, no matter what. A newbie can attempt the play the game and do what can be done, but in the end his effort can only be done to an extent that is allowed BY THE SYSTEM. P can spread his experience and knowledge about HIS travels, but cannot literally hold all artists hands in their journey. The question I leave you all with is.....Who is more successful in the end, a HOE with a PIMP, or a HOE on her own??? The answer is VERY evident, and its still the DEAL in the oldest profession of the world. It WILL NOT change unless all rise up and fight TOGETHER against the system. Let the love of the art fuel the fight, not the amount of the gold at the end of the tunnel!!!! PEACE!!!!

Whatever happened to Prince rerecording all of his albums so he could own the rights. I remember hearing that in the late 90s.

BlaqueKnight said:

Luv4oneanotha said:

You know, I totally agree that's the way it should be, but unfortunately many artists don't think/act the same as you do. The pimps will always be there to exploit them.