Skletonkee: The whole point of my post was that promotion is what makes a band sell. Bjork and Radiohead are promoted QUITE well by their record labels. A friend of mine manages a record store here in San Antonio, and received a ton of promo items for the Radiohead disc. TRC came with NO promotional materials at all.

You can argue that Prince has lost his audience for a variety of reasons, but none of them hold up when you compare with other artists who are still successful, but have done similar things:

1. "The Name change was too weird, and made everyone think he was a freak"arguement- Weird? Nothing compared to Michael Jackson's various exploits, such as owning chimps, wearing dust masks outside, marrying Lisa Marie, naming his son "Prince", buying the bones of the Elephant Man, etc. (not to mention his alleged molestaion of young boys). Michael is full of weirdness, yet "Invincible" still debuted at #1. Why the difference? MJ's album got promoted, Prince's did not.

2. The "Prince's music in the 90s was weak compared to his 80s output" arguement- Elton John and Stevie Wonder both put out some rather stunning albums in the 70s, only to release rather lackluster discs in the 80s. Both Stevie and Elton had huge hits in the 80s, however, with these crappy albums. Elton continued to have hits with mediocre albums through the 90s. Why were they successful with half-assed, inconsistent discs, when Prince was not? Promotion

3. The "Prince is an 80s artists, and all the people who grew up with him are the only ones who know who he is" arguement- Sting was huge in the 80s, continues to have hits today. Madonna was one of the biggest stars of the 80s, continues to have hits today. Why would these guys have big hits now if the audience for them had "outgrown" them? Why wouldn't Prince have hits if these guys continue to hold onto their audience? Again, the answer comes down to one thing: promotion.

4. The "MTV/VH1/BET/Rolling Stone/Radio hates him" arguement- These outlets tend to feature artists that are being promoted by their label. Many of Prince's contemporaries continue to get airplay and interview time in these outlets, but Prince does not. Why is this? What is the one factor separating these artists from Prince? Are they more talented? No. Are they more stylish? No. Are they nicer people? Maybe. Oh, what could it be?????Maybe, possibly, just possibly.....Promotion?

BTW, SkletonKee, I wasn't sinling you out specifically with my posts, just responding to your arguement about Radiohead & Bjork. The rest of the post was for several different points that have been made on here. Peace

The media dislikes him because he won't play for them and the media control the minds of most everyone, especially young people.

no prob jedi...i enjoy reading others opinions...but, my point was not about how an album becomes successful and sells.

my point was that their are artist out today who create groundbreaking work...who, with each album create new and innovate work. Prince used to be able to do this, but now relies on *safe* sounds. Sure, the work is enjoyable...sorta like eating your favorite chocolate candy..over and over and over again..but soon you'll get sick of it. Prince needs to add a lil nuts into his chocolate...or something. Thats all I am saying...

And a lot of people used to comment (at the old org.) that you cant expect an artist to remain "fresh" for long periods of time..but i dispute this claim. Bjork started out in the business in the early 80's and still creates unique and wonderful sounds. If Prince dropped the "YES MEN" and allowed true thinkers (ala wendy,lisa,shiela,) he could learn and grow. Im not saying have him work with the girrsss again. But he should listen to new albums, go see some new artists at clubs. See what the new artist are creating. Find a new muse..thats how you re-invigerate your creativity.

Others say that an artist like Bjork or Radiohead arent as prolific as Prince. And to that I say, does being prolific equal quality? I would rather Prince keep his sound-a-like songs to himself...play them at a concert or during his PP parties... If im paying for an album I want to be moved by a new experience..a new piece of chocolate. Prince needs to read "Who moved my cheese".


DAMN THE EDIT!! DAMN THE EDIT!!!
[This message was edited Tue Mar 26 15:14:26 PST 2002 by SkletonKee]

Prince is unique, and he likes to do things his way. also when he changed to a symbol people couldnt identify with him. his music styles change alot, his looks, he's not consistant, but hes very talented, and i, myself dont care if the masses dig him or not...i do.

i havent read all the responses, but from my perspective
PRINCE was always to be missunderstood. thats why he was able to write his own script from the start.
his unpopularity however is a result of being too soulful
for whites (softandwet, domebaby,etc)too rock for blacks
(bambi,head,etc)and too much controll on his musical level,
i.e.the amount of jazz in his funk...
PRINCE caught the over flow from the 60s.
HENDRIX was also dispised at that level...until his demize.
thankfully this did not have to happen here, for most of us.
the others will catch up in time.....
badlad00769

music industry changes every 10 years. each decade you had;

1960s - the beatles

1970s - rolling stones

1980s - prince, michael jacskon, madonna, U2, etc

1990s - pearl jam, nirvana, rem (1980s), britney, backstreet boys, etc.

2010s - crap


prince went out of fashion in the 1990s...same thing will happen to Britney after the 2010s. times changes alot

Prince was unique in the 80's, a sound quite original, some rauncy lyrics that we never really heard on album B4 him.
Then several artists went in that lyrical direction, his music became bland (multi-directional-unfocussed) lost alot of fans that were anticipating the next Purple Rain or 1999.
Music fans really don't want to listen 2 an Album a dozen times B4 they like it- His music grows on U.
When a new Prince album used to come out I anticapted greatness or at least better than the last album.
That pretty much quit happening after SOTT.
Started to appreciate only a few songs per album(Batman Sndtrk),then one song per album(Come),then no songs (NewPowerSoul)...
Alot of fans just gave up - I'm still waiting... :-)17

I think it's his inconsistency with the things he says. Like he announced the name change and built this big spiritual hype around it and then changed it back with the explanation that he did it because of the Warner Bros. conflict. Then there was the Mayte thing and we're together forever and then "no contract" type of thing and then divorces her. In addition to that, he went after suing many of what he referred to as his "so called fans" just because they had pictures and his music on their sites. I could understand him going after people who were outright bootlegging his material, but many of these people weren't selling anything, from the sites I visited. He made a lot of people mad about that.

Prince will always be an inspiration to me regardless because I guess I expect it from him and write it off as a phase like this Jehovah thing. Notice how many artists run to religion as soon as their popularity begins to fade.

LadyQ said:

Yea suing over the fan sites was ridiculous. Talk about a control freak. Speaking of "no contract" BS what happened with Chaka Khan? She didn't play the Rave 2000 show and I haven't heard anything from the Prince site about her either. Sounds like they may have parted ways on bad terms?

BanishedBrian said:

- VERY TRUE!!!! I always thought that Prince could use less electronic stuff when he had the 95 NPG with him, but he was so desperate to sound ´modern´...
There is a huge difference between the production of TRC and Gold. If Prince used more acoustic, raw vibe on Gold, it would have been a lot better. Compare ´Goldnigga´ with ´Exodus´. Some songs on Exodus could have been a lot funkier (good example is Return of Bump Squad) if he just let Michael and Sonny pound their instruments, like on live concerts

micorison requesting radio silence...
[This message was edited Fri May 3 12:12:23 PDT 2002 by micorison]

bcuz he is and was nobody's puppet
not even ours...
all these bands put out music that all sound the same coz we ate it up the first time and we will eat it up again and again that is all we want from them, nothing different, we (public) can't accept it, we like what we like and you have to be what we want you to be, ppl. want him to forever pump the stage and sing about masterbation and head....be freaky and nasty...
what if nstink put out a metal album??
u know exactly what...buh bye!
what if Breastly sneers gave us an album of yodeling??

no, we want what we are told to want and we are affraid of change...

so when Prince illustrated that he was capable of many other styles to tempt us, most were affraid to get on the ride. I love it when ppl. say "u like prince? I used to really love him in purple rain, but then he got so weird" when the truth is really if you have paid attention to anything u would notice the freak really peaked on purple rain

I say funk them anyway, if you don't know..then you just don't know, if you are not down for this ride, step aside and make a way for those who want to go.....

MORE!!!!!wheeeee!!!!!MORE!!!!!
[This message was edited Wed Mar 27 15:52:49 PST 2002 by kamasutra]
[This message was edited Mon Apr 29 14:19:18 PDT 2002 by kamasutra]

if u ask me .... he still had the "critics" , which is very important ... around 1993 or so ... before ... the name change ...

the name change ... doomed him ...

i think it was the last straw ... with the critics ... but .. one could also argue that the name change ... ALONG with ... the fighting with warner bros ... made him ... fall from grace from others in the recording industry ...

EvilWhiteMale said:

No the only thing that contributed to his decline is the audience who turned into boring consumers who had to be spoonfed the truth instead of being unasumming listeners who could tell the truth from a lie in a world where the difference has become too hard to see with the human eye.

personally i feel P just went UnderGround with his sound & only the Famz who really care about the Music & or The Message give a Duck now.

now that P is older he "supposedly" doesn't care much 4 the Radio Charts any longer...

He is unpopular because his music just isn't good anymore, and he made too many weird choices that turned people off. He constantly contradicts himself in interviews about his life, and reasons for the name change etc. and now he is shoving his beliefs of organized religion upon us. He is a great musician, that will likely NEVER have commercial success again. The record buying public is too young to be interested in anything he has to say, or do musically, therefore he will continue to depend on his current fan base, and occasionally pick up new fans along the way. Who cares anyway? I do NOT like rainbow children, although I did like shelovesme4me for about a week. He has done nothing that has touched on the success of Purple Rain, and things ain't changing...He was raw way back then, and he was racous, with a fire in his eyes. Get some meat in ya there little guy...Humans were meant to eat meat. He is just too soft and squishy for me these days, and I will not buy another Prince album, nor will I care unless there is some stellar reviews by people who have the intelligenct to distinguish between good music (not just musicianship) that hits me where I live...At this point, I'm ready to fall asleep...And to all those fan club members...Prince is making himself more accessible now, because he is desperate to gain new fans. If he had the same fame of Purple Rain days now...he would be just as rec lusive as he was then. I am not bitter at Prince...I jujst grew up and realized he just has his head way too far up in the clouds to see what he needs to do, which is to keep his religious tripe to himself, and start making good pop albums again...but this is what happens when you give a 17 year old kid millions of dollars, and tell him how great he is...Let's face it...He has lost his mind...Peace

sensitivemthrfker said:

TELL THEM Y U MAD SON! LOL!

1. An album that did not follow up to Purple Rain
2. His funky attitude - disrespecting James Brown, Michael Jackson and having Chuck Huntsberry carry him on his shoulder - signifying the world was beneath him.
3. Distancing himself from his American fan base after Purple Rain.
4. Religious songs. He should be more like U2 talk about God which is spirituality, not religion, without mentioning the words, God, Jesus and Christ. He did it for Purple Rain.

He could have made a come back if he would have released the 'Hot With U' remix that featured Eve, but you can't tell someone that knows how the music industry work anything when the listening public knows who's hot and who they will support.

First, Ace316 hit it EXACTLY on the head in the description of changes in the music industry; yet, to say that 90% of what’s on the radio is “weak & watered down” is a GENEROUS assessment. For example, on the infrequent occasions I listen to the radio, I have to go lie down when I actually hear a song that isn’t done over a drum machine. Even more annoying than that, about half of all the songs heard on the radio are a remake of the better version of a song I heard 22-29 years ago.

Basically, in the last 10 years or so it’s all come down to
“I wanna get paid”
.. & the best way to facilitate that is to 1) make music that sounds like whatever the latest trend is or 2) remake a song that was done 22-29 years ago. From my perspective, this “money money money” mentality started after the success of “Thriller”
(I can now admit this: YEARS ago, when I was a “die-hard Prince FAN” I was rather resentful of MJ, knowing that he had- at best- 1/3 of the muscial ability that Prince did, but just happened to have the right stuff at the right time.. really, I think that if you take out the Eddie Van Halen solo from “Beat It”- a guitar solo MJ could never even play in his wildest, non-teenage boy dreams- the whole “Thriller” phenomenon probably would’ve never occurred.)
But I digress.
The worldwide, unduplicatable success of “Thriller” got some singers & musicians to thinking that they too could have an album that could sell to “Thriller” proportions. Of course, to this date, no one’s come close to selling 40 million units worldwide. Yet, that mentality of “we gotta have a multiplatinum, major crossover hit” was solidly planted & indeed exists today.
This is why today most songs sound the same, this is why it’s (mostly) all about the image & not about the talent &/or musical ability.. performers choose to hedge their bets, hoping against hope that they too will have that “40 million unit miracle”..
This is why there are few performers who take the time to hone & perfect their craft- those who even have any real talent at all. It’s much easier to sample the music of a trained, accomplished musician/singer/songwriter than to take the time to learn chord progressions, arrangements, to develop one’s own musical style, etc.
It’s very sad that there is now a whole generation that is used to- & even likes- all this predictable, mass-produced, cookie cutter garbage. Sad indeed.

Bringing all this back to “Knucklehead” (the name by which I affectionately call “Prince”.. is it still safe to call him Prince?).. he always was a musician who wanted to do things his own way (at least, that was the case until he started contaminating the airwaves with the likes of Tony M.) Though at times, he himself has struggled between “being number 1 at the bank” & “it’s all about the music” & that has showed, & that too has led many of his longer-term fans to lose interest.

Thus, I would concur that clearly it’s been a combination of Knuck-knuck’s own undoing (the name change & subsequent “self-dissing,” questionable single choices, regularly ‘weird’ behavior, lack of musical consistency & focus, etc.) as well as the “selling out to the altar of the almighty dollar” by the industry as a whole.

Very well put, Ace316. In fact, Sensitivemth.. is not too far off either in terms of his assessment!

sensitivemthrfker said:

What the HELL!? Why are you even here if you don't like him that much now??? You're an idiot, that's what you are, and with good reason. You start ripping on him simply because HE'S NOT WHAT YOU WANT HIM TO BE!!! You rip on him for not eating meat. Stupid argument there, boy. As for his religious thang you say he needs to keep to himself. Are you on drugs!? He's been talking about the Creator for God knows how long in his music!! Ever hear of the song "God"? Or how bout the Lovesexy album. Freaks on this side.

You're the one that's lost, boy. That's just what you are....A LITTLE BOY that whines about how Prince ain't what you want him to be. He ain't the Purple Rain dude you wish he had remained. Then you talk about "this is what happens when you give a 17 year old kid millions of dollars. What the hell kinda comment was that!? How pathetic can you get!? So if you're saying that, then you're contradicting yourself big time because Purple Rain came 9 years after the millions of dollars he supposedly got when he was age 17. You have your facts all f**ked up, boy. You're the biggest idiot I've ever read on here. They should have a discussion forum on your stupid comments posted here. You're a loser. Nuff said.

To Everyone Else....
A Peaceful Wild, ya'll!!!
T-O-DoubleD

PEOPLE ARE IGNORANT.

What gets "popular" to the "masses" is the music that the music industry wants to be sold.
There's no one today who gets popular if the records industry don't want them to be.
If you want to be successful you got to follow their rules: what single must be released and stuff like that.
The "masses" just listen to what's played on the radio, and for their "products" to be played on the radio record companies make deals.
I haven't appreciated most of Prince's music of the 90's, and I thought the name change was stupid not because of the reason (that at the time he didn't explain) but because there seemed to be no reason to be called something unpronaunceble.(spelling?)
I've had very little experience with record companies myself, and I can tell you that before deciding what single to release, they had already decided what I should have put on.
Needless to say, no single was released.

jnoel said:

I agree. But I think that making himself unpopular was a multi-stage plan and required quite some masterminding!

After choosing the wrong singles, Stage 2 was to to begin to upset people in the music industry, not only WB but also TV and radio companies, showing up late for interviews or cancelling at the last minute. That got him bad-mouthed or ignored by a lot of stations.

Stage 3 was the name change, confusing a lot of people and turning himself into an object of ridicule in the process.

ugh..

4 the last time Warner Bros was/is always willing to create successful marketing ventures like Diamonds & Pearls and the Batman Movie. Prince had serious problems with agreeing to cooperate after 1992 and Warner Bros did nothing to sabotage his career. Nothing.

Can we get this childish and ignorant notion out of our heads that WB is responsible for his lack of exposure and resulting popularity? AOL-Time Warner is a successful company and its music division is a reputable business partner. Each project and failure was Prince's ALONE.

Ask anyone in the industry; Prince (Post-Clive) is a poor businessman with a scarred reputation of not being a good partner. He learns to play ball and these giants can make anyone popular again.

There's a whole bunch of reasons ie the name change, rebelling with around the world in a day instead of purple rain 2, chasing trends etc. However when warners released The hits set in the UK and it sold bucket loads it made you realise just how popular he was and still is. As always though it was another missed opportunity to capitalise and give TRC a good UK run. The best thing Prince could in the UK do is to go on mainstream tv ie Parkinson and show how articulate and witty he really is. Afterall if that fat pervert George Micheal can turnaround the UK public so soon after THAT incident by talking with Parky then Prince will easily be able to at the very least change peoples perception of him. Hopefully he'd leave Larry and all that JW lit behind in Minne.

It sounds like a lot of us are repeating the same things:

Name Change
"Slave" on face
Battle with Warner Bros.

If Prince would've stayed true to his contract with Warner Bros, and released top-notch music (while still with them) he would still be a top name today. Plain and simple. Imagine where we'd be today if there was never a "symbol" and the last decade was full of Prince music.

I'm not saying that WB did anything to sabotage his career - but in essence he did that to himself. Blacklisted.

I think the answer to this is very simple: its the record business of today which made prince unpopular to the masses. the 80s was probably the biggest turnaround in the history of the recording business. until about 1985, there still was a need for huge stars with character, individualism and most of all talent. MJ, Madonna and Prince I would consider as the last big stars of the modern music era (MJ and Madonna giftet more with entertainment skills than musical --- but thats another discussion).
after those big three nobody has followed in their footsteps. entertainers like britney spears emerged out of a whole new different concept of stardom - controlled by the industry.
until the 80s, if you were gifted and lucky, you had a pretty good chance of becoming a pop star.
a good example is James Brown, who was not only soulbrother no 1, but a pop star to standards of the 60s. in 1970, after the ruin of king records, he changed to polydor, a label from holland, which just touched american soil. they came to the US with different ideas and a modern concept of marketing. they took away the artistic control from JB, remixed his music to their needs. JB, a man of authenticity, lost his face in front of the fans. and the young generation of the 70s got hooked to the new marketing concept. by 1977, they looked at JB as outdated.
I think the same thing happened to prince. he was a true child of the early 80s, a man with a big head and individualism. Warner let him do his thing as long as he sold records. but already after parade they lost trust in him, telling him to cut down the 3-LP-set "Dream Factory" to the double album SOTT. after producing commercial failures like Graffiti Bridge it was over for Prince.
However, I also hold Prince responsible to his lost mass appeal. with Graffiti Bridge he started to act chaotic, out of his system, confused. musicially, the 80s were over. instead of giving a new direction for the 90s, Prince just jumped on the trane and that way too late. hiphop and dancefloor became his biggest enemies. that was it.
But lets not be sad about that. In today's music business, one should be proud of his lack of mass appeal. or would you like Prince to be named in the same breath as britney? guess not. hope not.
today prince cannot be marketed to the masses any more. he's too old, too individual to catch the modern pop crowds attention.
I think he's way aware of that, proud of it and thats why he changed his direction. I am sure "Rave" was his last attempt to make a pop album. he failed. now he's found himself.
but he's anything but outdated. look at the "Rave" video. in spite of the big hits, I consider this performance a new direction, something I would call "future rock n roll". the sound, the clothes, the style. its damn cool and fresh. thats how I imagine the funk 20 ys from now. I am happy with Prince the way he is these days. props. I wish James Brown will find a new drirection. even if its just going back to the funk basics. but the soulbrother no 1 never got over losing the mass appeal

prince took the risk of unpopularity, and paid the price for his freedom. more power to him. i'd rather listen to music that he owns and freely assembled than music he composed because he was contractually obligated and constrained. i also couldn't care less iff the masses like prince or not.

KingOfNYC said:

Well said.. BUT.. in NYC you are able 2 pick up a copy of the Rainbow Children... in a modern/western industrialized city like Tel Aviv.. you can't get the major Record Stores to shelve the music. Less power to the idiot who doesn't market himself properly. So i'd rather continue 2 listen 2 the music.. but redline still hasn't hit the shelves here.