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PrintableOdysseyMiles said: Serious said: That's a wise statement  , however you don't need any political insight if you don't vote anyway  . If I were you, I wouldn't bother reading the newspaper (at least the sections about politics). If I am not willing to take the responsibility I am offered (and it's great that I am offered it I am very thankful and don't take it for granted ) as it doesn't make any sense...But maybe that's the reason you wrote "would"....I think she meant political insight in the sense of "being up on things" or being aware of what's going on in the world. Voting has little to do with it. There are plenty of people who vote and have no clue what's going on. i do like to know what's going on in the world. interesting to see how many events are in line with Bible prophecy. i truly enjoy that. and i pray for us all.  | |
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I'm really puzzled (and vaguely disturbed) by the people on this thread asking for it to end or be locked, or that people shouldn't express criticism, or whatever. If you don't like what the thread's about, don't read it! Am kinda troubled by the implicit idea that we should refrain from saying anything negative about Our Great Leader, Kim Jong-Rogers Nelson.....
Anyway, for the record, I think this has been a really interesting thread, and I agree almost entirely with the sentiment behind it... "Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin | |
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I think he's always been a better musician than a lyricist, and sometimes, because he's so prolific musically, it almost feels like the lyrics have been added as an afterthought. In the past he's always fallen back on writing something sexual, but now he's closed off that option, and to be honest, I'm glad, as it was getting a little old (and, frankly, so was he!) but it leaves the question of what to say. Which means having to reveal (maybe even to decide) what he's all about...
I agree that the cryptic stuff is a mask, and the drama ("opera") too. There are only a few examples in his body of work of him being genuinely honest and vulnerable. What springs to mind is, first, around Sign O The Times, writing about Susannah, and later on about Mayte on Emancipation (which is one of the reasons I like this album, although many people don't). I do believe that having opened up so much (by his standards) and then having everything fall apart (baby died, marriage broke down, etc), he really recoiled from expressing himself honestly in his work, and I think it's suffered ever since. The fact that he's never really opened up about that stuff on record makes me wonder how much attention I should pay to an artist that doesn't seem to trust me as a listener...? Re: the political stuff - I don't take Dear Mr Man as referring to GSH or Curtis, to be honest. The Musicology album sounds like he's doing "an impression of a Prince album", so I think the intention was more Sign O The Times - Pt. II. Plus, he likes the idea of "having one of those" (i.e. a "political" song) without really having the insight to back it up. When you live in a hermetically-sealed mansion, divorced from society, I'm not sure that your understanding of this stuff is enhanced very much! Lyrically, I find Dear Mr Man embarrassing (even Michael Stipe shut up about the ozone layer 10 years ago!!!) - it's like he decided to write about some "issues"... But there is a value in artistic commentary on current events, which adds something more than "reading the newspaper" (as someone said) does. I'm just not sure that Prince really "connects" with society enough to provide that. Even Sign & Dance On, when you listen to the lyrics, are about someone viewing the world "out there" through the news media. If he'd just level with us, I think he still has a couple of great albums left in him. But it's true that he could probably do with taking off the mask, and getting out once in a while....  "Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin | |
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17ways69days said: No doubt about it, Prince is one of the most talented musicians making music today. Unfortunately, Prince does not really have that much to say. While Prince has shown that he can make relevant points with campy songs like “Controversy” and more serious tracks like “Anna Stesia” these moments of lyrical clarity and insight are far and few between. In the majority of the consciously “serious” Prince songs Prince sounds out of his league. While I enjoy the music of both “Dear Mr. Man” and “United States of Division” the lyrics are uninspired and trite. Compare “Dear Mr. Man” with the original templates “What’s Going On” and the more politically conscious Curtis and Sly and you see that Prince lacks the sophistication, wit, and verbal prowess and sensativity of his precursors. “America” is a dope track and the lyrics work because it’s pure pop-camp but when Prince goes for more he usually fails miserably. TRC? Please, while the music is, at times, brilliant, the lyrics are alienating, cryptic, and inane. Now cryptic sometimes makes for a good pop record (e.g. “7”) but generally cryptic social commentary is the product of the uniformed and naïve. But really what are we to expect? Prince spends all his time making music and today even the music sounds recycled and uninspired. Prince get out of the house, take a trip with your wife, read the paper. Any maybe you should vote too!
I think Prince's lyrics work better when he's being cryptic. I know what you mean though... When he writes about specific issues these days, his naivety can grate. I don't think he's blind to current affairs though, nor do I think that he sees things as being black or white. I just think that in his day-to-day life he doesn't need to think about politics. He realises that others are poltically conscious and he'll remark upon it - but it's beneath him. He'd rather be the Pope than the President. He's not out to deliver some sweeping political message. He's in the privileged position of being above partisanship. Any presumed political message from Prince can only ever be viewed as being from his viewpoint. It wasn't always the case but now he has limitless time and money to ponder upon the true meaning of God instead of worrying how he's going to pay his taxes this year. . [This message was edited Wed Aug 18 23:24:33 2004 by BinaryJustin] | |
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BlackandRising said:[quote] BlaqueKnight said: LMAO I just wanted to see how pissed you'd get. But, your point is still as cloudy as a pint of Guiness, given that he has never directly stated that one should not vote. You may want to review what you posted on this subject. Someone speaking out about the perception that one's vote does not count, and advising someone not to vote are two different matters entirely. If you can direct me to a quote where Prince specifically states that one should not vote, period, I will leave the org for a day or two. 
Surely you don't think I'm pissed do you? My posts were clear. You're just a bit  .
Next time I'll post in one syllable words for ya, k? 
Better yet, I'll get you a sheild that way you can defend Prince a little mo' better. Peace....ya little minion.  | |
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BlackandRising said: Someone speaking out about the perception that one's vote does not count, and advising someone not to vote are two different matters entirely.
I don't want to get in the middle of anything, but I took the line "ain't no sense in voting" to be pretty unambiguous..... "Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin | |
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deebee said: BlackandRising said: Someone speaking out about the perception that one's vote does not count, and advising someone not to vote are two different matters entirely.
I don't want to get in the middle of anything, but I took the line "ain't no sense in voting" to be pretty unambiguous..... No problem. Yes, that one line is fairly unambiguous. But taken in the contest of the song, a "letter" to Mr. Man, the song lays out the complaints of "the people" which he refers to when citing the Constitution, seems to me to be more of a "look at this....why is this a problem? Maybe it's something you should look at, cause people shouldn't be made to feel that their voices don't count." I don't know, maybe I think a little deeper about what people say. But then, I think this is what music is all about. People hear different things. | |
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BlaqueKnight said:[quote] BlackandRising said: BlaqueKnight said: LMAO I just wanted to see how pissed you'd get. But, your point is still as cloudy as a pint of Guiness, given that he has never directly stated that one should not vote. You may want to review what you posted on this subject. Someone speaking out about the perception that one's vote does not count, and advising someone not to vote are two different matters entirely. If you can direct me to a quote where Prince specifically states that one should not vote, period, I will leave the org for a day or two.
[color=blue:7daf01938c]Surely you don't think I'm pissed do you? My posts were clear. You're just a bit .
Next time I'll post in one syllable words for ya, k?
Better yet, I'll get you a sheild that way you can defend Prince a little mo' better. Peace....ya little minion. [/color]LOL see? You fall back on the "defense" thing. Again, if you see this as "defending" Prince, then you cannot read. But you are just a little red, aren't you?  | |
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tricky99 said: 17ways69days said: Again good points. I pretty much agree with this post from top to bottom so let me clarify a little bit. Yes, I also don’t have the sense that MG, SW, or CM are “towering intellectuals” but all three have the gift of touch – of being in touch with their audience and articulating through lyrics + feeling the mostly unstated thoughts of their audience. This talent (which I misleadingly labeled “intellect”) is something that Prince has lost long ago. Perhaps you’re right about the Sly stone song – the music is not exceptional and, aside from the catch words, there’s not much going on but still, even though the song is very much a product of its moment, I find that this song has an edge that neither “Race” nor “Family Name” nor any other race-related political inspired Prince song has. “Controversy” is one of my favorite Prince songs and this song is perhaps P’s best commentary on race but, despite the biblical references, it’s pure pop camp. As for P’s edge, I overstated my point. Prince has edge (had edge) but again the edge is not the political and religious angst of Curtis or Sly or the almost too intimate and uncomfortably personal MG, rather it’s the edge of Madonna or Boy George, the pop star who is pushing the conventional boundaries without any real guiding force or coherent trajectory. As for Prince not being a soul singer, true enough but my point is not that soul music is better than pop or that Prince should be a soul singer, rather I’m just using soul music as a point of reference to make a point about Prince. I do get where u are coming from. Yes i concede that those 3 artists convey a certain connection with their audience (particularly black folk). But i think they play to there audiences xpectations much more than Prince. Prince early removed himself from playing the role that was expected of him and proceded to alienate his audience at everyturn. He for the most part has not allowed our perceptions of him to stop him from going down the next rabbit hole. Remember prince has always cultivated an "otherness" or uniquesness. Prince has never allowed us to see him. He is not "real" like a Marvin or Mayfield. His is a persona that is presented to us like the Wizard of OZ. The "true" Prince is behind the curtain. Just because he obscures his personal reality doesn't mean he does not provide universal truth in his writing. Explain what u mean by Controversy being pure "pop camp". What does that mean? Controversy was one of the first songs that told me that not only was Prince talented but that he was also brave in a way most people are not. Here is a young man asking questions about identity and belief in a context that was unique. I certainly had never heard anything like it. Who am I and who do u believe me to be? And what's this about Prince not having edge anymore. Think about it. What is a work like TRC if not edgy? Like it or hate it. What other artist does it sound like? It's both a biblical allegory and a narrative of a personal journey of discovery. Well tricky99 let's end it on the positive. I'm loosing steam for this thread and I pretty much agree in total with your last couple posts. I think your right about Controversy. By calling the song campy, I'm just saying that Prince has crafted a pop record that plays on his convention busting persona of the time – analogy: not in-depth commentary born of deep introspection but a collection of memorable sound bytes conciously crafted to sustain and create a persona. And yes I agree TRC has edge but, to my mind, standing on the brink of too cryptic lyrics and exclusive dogma in the guise of peace for all "rainbow children" blah, is not as exhilarating as standing looking down to rather well defined, crystal clear Dirty-Mind. Anyway, it’s been fun. Thanks for the conversation. Peace. ego tripping out | |
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17ways69days said: tricky99 said: I do get where u are coming from. Yes i concede that those 3 artists convey a certain connection with their audience (particularly black folk). But i think they play to there audiences xpectations much more than Prince. Prince early removed himself from playing the role that was expected of him and proceded to alienate his audience at everyturn. He for the most part has not allowed our perceptions of him to stop him from going down the next rabbit hole. Remember prince has always cultivated an "otherness" or uniquesness. Prince has never allowed us to see him. He is not "real" like a Marvin or Mayfield. His is a persona that is presented to us like the Wizard of OZ. The "true" Prince is behind the curtain. Just because he obscures his personal reality doesn't mean he does not provide universal truth in his writing. Explain what u mean by Controversy being pure "pop camp". What does that mean? Controversy was one of the first songs that told me that not only was Prince talented but that he was also brave in a way most people are not. Here is a young man asking questions about identity and belief in a context that was unique. I certainly had never heard anything like it. Who am I and who do u believe me to be? And what's this about Prince not having edge anymore. Think about it. What is a work like TRC if not edgy? Like it or hate it. What other artist does it sound like? It's both a biblical allegory and a narrative of a personal journey of discovery. Well tricky99 let's end it on the positive. I'm loosing steam for this thread and I pretty much agree in total with your last couple posts. I think your right about Controversy. By calling the song campy, I'm just saying that Prince has crafted a pop record that plays on his convention busting persona of the time – analogy: not in-depth commentary born of deep introspection but a collection of memorable sound bytes conciously crafted to sustain and create a persona. And yes I agree TRC has edge but, to my mind, standing on the brink of too cryptic lyrics and exclusive dogma in the guise of peace for all "rainbow children" blah, is not as exhilarating as standing looking down to rather well defined, crystal clear Dirty-Mind. Anyway, it’s been fun. Thanks for the conversation. Peace. Cool, we will have to agree to disagree. but i like your writing and your thought processes. I look forward to future discussions with u. I will have to pull Controversy out and listen to it. Look for a thread of my review of the song in the near future. As far as TRC. I love the cyptic quality it has. Some people like puzzles and riddles others do not. But I believe it stands apart not only from what other black acts attempt musically but also from any other album in his catolog. For an artist to still be able to create unique work so far into a career is very rare and quite intriging for me. peace. | |
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I wouldn't say Prince is a fool, but when it comes to makeing a strong political statement he's no Ani Difranco, who is damn near genius. |
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BlaqueKnight said: [color=blue:5201423c7e]Unless you've only known Prince's work the span of a couple of albums, you MUST know that Prince isn't writing just so people won't diss him. He's made social comments for a long time now; Ronnie Talk To Russia, Party Up (even though Morris penned the lyrics), the list goes on. Some of his efforts to do so have been lame and seemingly misinformed. Some (Sign of the Times) have been brilliant. Sign of the Times was artistic, but not vague. The era of double entenders has passed.
p.s. Whether or not you can stand Talieb has no bearing on how great of a writer he is.[/color] no i just think we now live in an age where Adderall has more influence on youngsters than actually focusing and using your mind. we now live in an age where you can get your children diagnosed with having ADD as an excuse of why everything must be short, concise, black and white and I'm sorry but life isn't that easy. It's far more complicated. Life itself is full of double enteders and in order to make it in life our youth has to be prepared to see life from all different aspects and they have to be open to all different ideas. I'm not saying that Prince is a genius when it comes to the songs that seem to make people think, but I will say this ... sometimes raising a question is more powerful than coming up with short and sweet answers. | |
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adorable2 said: no i just think we now live in an age where Adderall has more influence on youngsters than actually focusing and using your mind. we now live in an age where you can get your children diagnosed with having ADD as an excuse of why everything must be short, concise, black and white and I'm sorry but life isn't that easy. It's far more complicated. Life itself is full of double enteders and in order to make it in life our youth has to be prepared to see life from all different aspects and they have to be open to all different ideas. I'm not saying that Prince is a genius when it comes to the songs that seem to make people think, but I will say this ... sometimes raising a question is more powerful than coming up with short and sweet answers. I don't disagree with you; however, when you make a political statement most of the times vagueness is frowned upon. People don't like wishy washy on certain issues. Since Prince is no politician, there is no reason to necessarily take any credence in his views on issues. It doesn't mean he's wrong, there is just no reason to assume he's informed because its not his JOB to be. Still, implied views from entertainers sometimes have more effect on the ones listening (esp. the fans) than straightforeward statements. Ani DeFranco is brilliant when it comes to communicating her political views in a creative way, but not everyone is. You also have to understand that our youth are much more direct in the way they communicate and much, much more cynical (thanks eMpTyV). Given that, vaguenes is often times dismissed in this "fast food" society. More and more people want immediate and direct answers or they look elsewhere. I'm not saying that's the best way, but its a reality in todays society. This has no bearing on what I was saying in my earlier posts. I stand by them. Prince has implied that he doesn't vote and that voting is useless. Andre, on the other hand, has stated that this will be his first time voting even though he believes voting is useless. That means that Andre is willing to take a leap of faith. Then again, Andre 3000 is not a JW. | |
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Face it fool, Prince is a fart   Bounce party y'all 
Like the wall of Berlin 
It's going down people -(5.7.2010)  | |
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BlaqueKnight said: This has no bearing on what I was saying in my earlier posts. I stand by them. Prince has implied that he doesn't vote and that voting is useless. Andre, on the other hand, has stated that this will be his first time voting even though he believes voting is useless. That means that Andre is willing to take a leap of faith. Then again, Andre 3000 is not a JW.
That is correct. JWs put their full trust in God, so I wish Andre the best with his leap of faith. | |
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OdysseyMiles said: BlaqueKnight said: This has no bearing on what I was saying in my earlier posts. I stand by them. Prince has implied that he doesn't vote and that voting is useless. Andre, on the other hand, has stated that this will be his first time voting even though he believes voting is useless. That means that Andre is willing to take a leap of faith. Then again, Andre 3000 is not a JW.
That is correct. JWs put their full trust in God, so I wish Andre the best with his leap of faith. Politics is not about God. I wish him the best in his leap of faith in CHANGE. People should not have to live their lives believing their collective vooices are useless against an establishment. That simply isn't true. As for the JWs; no offense but, elitist religions? 144,000?    | |
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BlaqueKnight said: OdysseyMiles said: That is correct. JWs put their full trust in God, so I wish Andre the best with his leap of faith. [color=blue:01da6e1251]Politics is not about God. I wish him the best in his leap of faith in CHANGE. People should not have to live their lives believing their collective vooices are useless against an establishment. That simply isn't true. As for the JWs; no offense but, elitist religions? 144,000? [/color]None taken. Especially when there's a misunderstanding.
The 144,000 does not represent those who survive armegeddon. It represents those who go to heaven. The rest of us have the hope of living on earth forever, under God's kingdom. A perfect government. Now even if we disagree on that belief, there's nothing elitist about it. All humans have that hope of everlasting life on earth if they're obedient to God. So I wouldn't call it elitist, since it's held out to everyone. | |
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BlaqueKnight said: OdysseyMiles said: That is correct. JWs put their full trust in God, so I wish Andre the best with his leap of faith. [color=blue:01da6e1251]Politics is not about God. I wish him the best in his leap of faith in CHANGE. People should not have to live their lives believing their collective vooices are useless against an establishment. That simply isn't true. As for the JWs; no offense but, elitist religions? 144,000? [/color]I am very happy that André has made such a wise decision to go and vote  and hopefully many young people will do so as well and don't listen to someone like Prince With a very special thank you to Tina: Is hammer already absolute, how much some people verändern...ICH hope is never so I will be! And if, then I hope that I would then have wen in my environment who joins me in the A.... | |
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Serious said: BlaqueKnight said: [color=blue:01da6e1251]Politics is not about God. I wish him the best in his leap of faith in CHANGE. People should not have to live their lives believing their collective vooices are useless against an establishment. That simply isn't true. As for the JWs; no offense but, elitist religions? 144,000? [/color]I am very happy that André has made such a wise decision to go and vote and hopefully many young people will do so as well and don't listen to someone like Prince Please lets not go there with Dre 3000. I heard that he will be attending a rally for Republicans. I don't support either party. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that he is involved with the voting process but how far one has to go to be accepted by mass society by aligning your self with Republicans. He is a damn sell out. This is one of the things that I admire about P. Even before joining JW, he wasn't a sell out and he stayed neutral by not endorsing any political party(allowing himself to be bought off by any political party). [This message was edited Fri Aug 20 13:30:00 2004 by Hotlegs] | |
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Hotlegs said: Serious said: I am very happy that André has made such a wise decision to go and vote and hopefully many young people will do so as well and don't listen to someone like Prince [color=blue:7ddf804da6]Please lets not go there with Dre 3000. I heard that he will be attending a rally for Republicans. I don't support either party. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that he is involved with the voting process but how far one has to go to be accepted by mass society by aligning your self with Republicans. He is a damn sell out. This is one of the things that I admire about P. Even before joining JW, he wasn't a sell out and he stayed neutral by not endorsing any political party(allowing himself to be bought off by any political party).[/color] [This message was edited Fri Aug 20 13:30:00 2004 by Hotlegs] I so hope that this is not true  .If it's true, it's a shame  . However it's still more honest to support a party (even in that case ) if you think they are right (and I just cannot imagine André to do so if that's not his opinion  ). To keep your mouth shut and not vote is the worst I can possibly think of when it comes to this certain election that's so damn important not just for the people in the US, but for all of us.[This message was edited Fri Aug 20 14:30:26 2004 by Serious] With a very special thank you to Tina: Is hammer already absolute, how much some people verändern...ICH hope is never so I will be! And if, then I hope that I would then have wen in my environment who joins me in the A.... | |
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