Printable HEY!
Don´t U all like It? If U don´t It´s cool 2. It´s just music, if It get´s in "your" computer It´s super and then just suck It all up and use... If U don´t like It, let It go... | |
- E-mail - orgNote -  Report post to moderator |
Bull said: Kingsausage, I don't think that you are understanding what I'm saying. I understand that you don't like the Cd,or you don't put it at the top of your favorite prince CD list. It is not my favorite prince release nor is it my most disliked I'm just trying to say that for a professional writer to say that this CD is the least essential album of 2003 is crazy in my mind. You would have to at least admit that it is in the top 2 or 3 CD in the same musical catagory that was released this year. Yes I understand that a lot of people don't like jazz or fussion, and I understand that it doesn't have the deep prince lyrics, or the heavy prince guitar,but when you break it down to the bare bones and listen to the music can you still tell me that this album deserves to be put in this least essential list. I respect your opinion as we all have different opionions on different prince projects.Graffiti Bridge I personally hated all but 3 songs on that CD,There are alot of people out there that wuold disagree with but I just didn't feel that CD. Good for me that the 3 songs that I did like were kickass, but I didn't feel the CD as a whole.
I do understand what you're saying...your message is loud and clear. Here it is: "I don't understand what least essential means." This has nothing to do with my tastes. Who gives a fuck what KingSausage thinks of NEWS? Seriously, why do you wankers care? The bottom line is that Prince has always been a huge innovator...even if the public didn't care, many critics still acknolwedged his talents. In 2003, however, this once mighty artist was reduced to releasing an incredibly cheap looking boring set of instrumental poop that was impossible to find in stores assuming that the public even knew it existed in the first place. If people DID find it, they can consider themselves lucky. The album isn't essential or inessential because John Q. Fuckwad in Assmunch, Idaho really likes or dislikes it. It's inessential because of the hilarity of its very existence. Prince putting this shit out. The public not caring. There are certainly many worse albums from 2003. But the only thing that MIGHT be less essential off of the Onion's list is the Randy "Macho Man" Savage CD. And even that one has some comedy interest in effect. NEWS is pathetic, and the public couldn't fucking care less. Taunting the public's shitty tastes might have meant something in the days of the Gold Experience, and even TRC, but NEWS is a different story. It's inessential. It's the equivalent of Duran Duran releasing an internet-only collection of Bavarian folk songs, as played on Casio keyboards and recorded in an outhouse in Zurich. Who gives a fuck? INESSENTIAL. "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
FutureShock said: Oh... I'm sooo delighted that you LOVED the Rainbow Children. Indulge a bit more... what is it that you love about the Rainbow Children? In any case, I finally got you to say something positive. Didn't last for long though seeing as how bitter and negative your next sentence was. I also noticed how you didn't answer my first question and had nothing else to say concerning my other comments. Also, just out of curiousity... are you the same guy who wrote the article for the Onion? I think you're one of those people who had nothing but negative things to say about NEWS when it was released. And now that NEWS has been given credibility by its Grammny Nomination, you had to search the web to find something... anything to back up your non-eseential, totally irrelvant and meaningless point. You throw down a challenge, then when someone answers the challenge you come back with nothing but bitterness. You need a hug or something? What I love about TRC is that it is innovative and fucking WEIRD. Like Prince should be. Boring instrumentals like NEWS MIGHT be exciting, if I didn't know who Miles, Coltrane, Monk, Hancock, etc. were. As is, NEWS blows my ass. To be totally honest, I don't know if I even read your first question. I'll take a look at it later, but it probably doesn't merit much thought. Rest assured that my ignoring it has nothing to do with me running from some sort of argument. No, I don't write for The Onion. How ridiculous! NEWS is sooo great that god only knows ONE person could find it inessential, right? Come on... Please don't hug me. When your argument for NEWS's validity depends heavily upon a Grammy nomination, you'd best call it a day. The Grammies are shit. For years, the Prince ass muppets on this site have been whining about how those awards aren't worth dick, because they "ignored" Prince. It's kind of funny, in a tragic way, to see such retarded hypocrisy play out. "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
laurarichardson said: It took you Forever to find it in the store because it is not on a major record label. You keep expecting to find Prince's independent output at the front of the record store and loads of radio airplay. That is not going to happen. Don't you SEE how sad it is for a new Prince album to be missing completely from major stores? An artist like Prince!?! If you can't understand that this makes NEWS a million times more inessential, then may god have mercy on your soul. Wow...BTW, I have no problems finding Ani's independent releases in stores. Or those of many other artists. Hmm... You have got to have your head up your ass to keep going on and on about this. You and the Onion don't like news. Well guess what this is Prince Org not King
Ugh...how frustrating. This has nothing to do with my tastes. The only reason my tastes were EVER brought up in the first place is because pathetic, mentally-ill Prince asskissers can't take any criticism of their sad Purple God, and have to lash out at suspected "haters." Keep fighting your windmills, Laura. I'm sure you'll win someday. Yeah. In addtion, who goes to the record store anymore. I found NEWS on Amazon.Com with no problem.
Lots of people. People who want to buy albums from essential artists, rather than has-beens who don't matter anymore. I could fucking find TRC in the stores, no problem. I saw NEWS on amazon.com, right away. But I can't see how any of this is relevant to the real debate at hand, other than to illustrate that you can't follow a logical argument one bit. You have got to have your head up your ass to keep going on and on about this. You and the Onion don't like NEWS.
Big Fucking Deal !!!. Prince has probaly started on the next project and will pick up his Grammy and life will go. Why don't you move on with your life and stop ranting about a record that you believe to be unimportant. This isn't about me, you cavewoman! The fact that there are people like you out there REALLY frightens me...people who are this defensive over Prince albums. Damn... By the way most of the record buying public is stupid. Look at the Top Ten CD's on Billboard.
Yeah, and look at the shit that gets nominated for Grammies ever year. Oh, wait, I'm sorry...I forgot that all of you Paisley nutbags are pretending that the Grammies matter now that Prince has been nominated. Gee, my mistake. I'll keep my fingers crossed that he beats out Kenny G. And I thought that Prince should be aiming at major achievements! Silly me. If he beats Kenny, NEWS will surely be essential, right? "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
FutureShock said: Don't get me wrong. I love TRC too. My comment was directed at "Kingsausage" and was somewhat tongue in cheek because I think he's only saying that he loves TRC because he knows that to admit otherwise would further prove my point. Yeah, I faked liking TRC just to please you, and to hide myself from the weight of your mighty arguments. Please! Don't delude yourself further... I can only "further" prove your point if you've started to prove something to begin with. That has not yet happened. Unless you did so on another thread. If so, please include the URL. 
This is almost too funny... "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
chiltonmusic said: Now me personally I love NEWS I think it is the most brilliant thing released this year by far and I feel it is very good. See when Prince starts a trend it does not mean someone before hasn't done it before it just that someone hasn't done it in a while (you know like fashion trends) a major artist releasing an instrumental album is a big deal.
Please tell me that you don't REALLY think that Prince started a trend with NEWS! There's no adequate emoticon for my reaction...I'd need a little smiley face guy laughing so hard that he's shitting through his nose and going into cardiac arrest... Ask yourself who else in music with Prince's stature (yes he still has stature if he completely fell off you would never hear his name spoken and there would be no need for this web site this discussion) would or could release an instrumental Seal no, Sting possibly but he won't, Lenny Kravitz it I doubt it. Of his contemporaries Prince is still the leader in my opinion.
Jesus this is stupid...I will ask myself what other artists have released instrumentals...Hmm...Bowie, Lou Reed, Brian Eno, U2, etc. A lot. The only trend Prince might be starting with NEWS is a whole lot more CDs in the bargain bins at your local CD Exchange. Wait, no, that would mean that people BOUGHT IT in the first place! Nevermind. "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
BartVanHemelen said: chiltonmusic said: See this is why I don't believe that NEWS is innessential. It has been nominated for a Grammy
In a seriously lame category where only 6 albums were released in last year. He's up against Kenny G. Kenny frigging G. YES! Thank you. "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
FutureShock said: BartVanHemelen said: chiltonmusic said: See this is why I don't believe that NEWS is innessential. It has been nominated for a Grammy
In a seriously lame category where only 6 albums were released in last year. He's up against Kenny G. Kenny frigging G. Oh... come one... don't hate. Don't be a hater. Why can't you some of you just be happy for Prince for once in your lives? "Don't be a hater." "Be happy for Prince." WHAT THE FUCK? Who is he? My sister who just had her first child? My best friend who got the promotion he'd been seeking? Scary. I think you might need some more emotional space between yourself and the artists whose music you enjoy. "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
bkw said: Well, you'd be wrong and only look more stupid then. Kingsausage has been around this forum for years and I have had alot of contact with him over that time. He loved TRC as he stated, he just doesnt stomach the crap that Prince sometimes produces such as NEWS, Rave and New Power Soul. Some of you people have to quit the self delusion. They can't quit, mate. To do so would require a) a serious reality check b) a sense of humor and c) a reliance upon critical thinking skills (the last one being the most difficult). "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
The Onion = dry unimaginitive humor
 | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
KingSausage said: FutureShock said: Oh... I'm sooo delighted that you LOVED the Rainbow Children. Indulge a bit more... what is it that you love about the Rainbow Children? In any case, I finally got you to say something positive. Didn't last for long though seeing as how bitter and negative your next sentence was. I also noticed how you didn't answer my first question and had nothing else to say concerning my other comments. Also, just out of curiousity... are you the same guy who wrote the article for the Onion? I think you're one of those people who had nothing but negative things to say about NEWS when it was released. And now that NEWS has been given credibility by its Grammny Nomination, you had to search the web to find something... anything to back up your non-eseential, totally irrelvant and meaningless point. You throw down a challenge, then when someone answers the challenge you come back with nothing but bitterness. You need a hug or something? What I love about TRC is that it is innovative and fucking WEIRD. Like Prince should be. Boring instrumentals like NEWS MIGHT be exciting, if I didn't know who Miles, Coltrane, Monk, Hancock, etc. were. As is, NEWS blows my ass. To be totally honest, I don't know if I even read your first question. I'll take a look at it later, but it probably doesn't merit much thought. Rest assured that my ignoring it has nothing to do with me running from some sort of argument. No, I don't write for The Onion. How ridiculous! NEWS is sooo great that god only knows ONE person could find it inessential, right? Come on... Please don't hug me. When your argument for NEWS's validity depends heavily upon a Grammy nomination, you'd best call it a day. The Grammies are shit. For years, the Prince ass muppets on this site have been whining about how those awards aren't worth dick, because they "ignored" Prince. It's kind of funny, in a tragic way, to see such retarded hypocrisy play out. Here is the question that you didn't bother to read... no excuses this time please.: My point is whether bad, good, essential unessential WHATEVER... the point is "essential" to who??? You say, "the music world in 2003". Who EXACTLY is the music world in 2003? What is your definition of that? Don't worry, I have no desire to hug you. My point was that you are obviously in NEED of SOMETHING positive and loving in your life if a single CD can draw out the type of negativity that you display. My argument in support of NEWS does not rest HEAVILY on its Grammy Nomination. I listed several reasons in addition to the Grammy Nomination. But on a personal note, I couldn't care less if NEWS were nominated for a Grammy. I've always loved NEWS regardless of whether or not it was nominated or liked by anyone else - including you. Furthermore, I'm not trying to "validate" NEWS. NEWS needs no validation - it is what it is. You say that you love TRC because it is"innovative" and "weird" "the way Prince is supposed to be". First of all, your presupposition of what Prince SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be is exactly why you will never be able to appreciate anything like NEWS. You are ESSENTIALLY saying that you already know or have in your mind the kind of music that Prince should create, and anything that falls outside of your narrow-minded view of him is unnaceptable. Again, NEWS is what it is. But I suppose then, that you found NOTHING abosultely nothing "weird" or innovative about NEWS? I ask seeing as how those are the two words you used to describe your new found professed love of TRC. You on the other hand seem to be very upset that people actually like NEWS. You keep saying that its not about "liking or disliking" NEWS, its about whether or not the CD is "essential". But then you keep coming back to the same tired and meaningless point that you personally hate NEWS. Then when someone starts talking about liking it, you turn around and say it's not about that. You're running in circles. If it's not about liking or disliking the cd, then why do you keep talking about hating it so much? "You've got to believe in something... why not believe in me?" | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
FutureShock said: Here is the question that you didn't bother to read... no excuses this time please.: My point is whether bad, good, essential unessential WHATEVER... the point is "essential" to who??? You say, "the music world in 2003". Who EXACTLY is the music world in 2003? What is your definition of that? I haven't offered any excuses yet, numbnuts. The music world in 2003 would include everyone who purchases music, downloads music, listens to the radio, reviews CDs, etc. With NEWS, you have a once popular, once innovative pop star who now has a TINY, ever-dwindling fan base of cult-mentality fanatics...the album can't be found in stores...most people don't even know of its existence...if they do come across it, they'll find that it's a pompous collection of "lite jazz" elevator music that's bound to put them to sleep, yet declares on its (sub-Photoshop quality) packaging that it's a "new direction in music." That's a pretty fucking sad situation. The riches to rags story here is what makes it inessential. What makes it all so funny is the pathetic desperation with which sorry shits like you need to defend Prince. You say that you don't care if people don't like NEWS. Then why do you care if The Onion declares it Least Essential album of 2003? It doesn't add up. Don't worry, I have no desire to hug you. My point was that you are obviously in NEED of SOMETHING positive and loving in your life if a single CD can draw out the type of negativity that you display.
I have plenty of positivity in my life, buddy. Plenty of it. I'm recently married, working hard and successfully at graduate school, and having fun with whatever I do every day. Perhaps it's my positivity that allows me to have a sense of humor, and not get my fucking panties in a bunch when a humor mag says that NEWS sucks ass. Maybe YOU need a hug??? My argument in support of NEWS does not rest HEAVILY on its Grammy Nomination. I listed several reasons in addition to the Grammy Nomination. But on a personal note, I couldn't care less if NEWS were nominated for a Grammy. I've always loved NEWS regardless of whether or not it was nominated or liked by anyone else - including you. Furthermore, I'm not trying to "validate" NEWS. NEWS needs no validation - it is what it is.
BULLSHIT. You hypocrite. If you don't care if NEWS was nominated for a Grammy, it wouldn't be part of your defense. You're full of it. You say that you love TRC because it is"innovative" and "weird" "the way Prince is supposed to be". First of all, your presupposition of what Prince SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be is exactly why you will never be able to appreciate anything like NEWS. You are ESSENTIALLY saying that you already know or have in your mind the kind of music that Prince should create, and anything that falls outside of your narrow-minded view of him is unnaceptable. Again, NEWS is what it is. But I suppose then, that you found NOTHING abosultely nothing "weird" or innovative about NEWS? I ask seeing as how those are the two words you used to describe your new found professed love of TRC.
Maybe you need to broaden your music listening experience, amigo. Because there's not a fucking THING that's innovative or weird on NEWS. Not one bit. Listen to Miles, Coltrane, Jarrett, etc. Hell, go listen to Madhouse! Even Prince has done this shit before! Maybe I do have some preconceived notions of what I expect of Prince. But I stand by those notions if expanding my definitions would mean to accept Prince putting out bullshit lite jazz. If I wanted Kenny G., I'd buy Kenny G. Sorry if I have high expectations of Prince. But guess what -- HE set those expectations. Not with Lovesexy. Or TGE. But with TRC. Less than two years before NEWS. Wait...are you going to tell me now that you've never disliked a Prince song or album? If so, then you're even more full of reeking shit than I thought. You on the other hand seem to be very upset that people actually like NEWS. You keep saying that its not about "liking or disliking" NEWS, its about whether or not the CD is "essential". But then you keep coming back to the same tired and meaningless point that you personally hate NEWS. Then when someone starts talking about liking it, you turn around and say it's not about that. You're running in circles. If it's not about liking or disliking the cd, then why do you keep talking about hating it so much?
Quite the contrary, my dimwitted friend. This thread was never about my personal feelings regarding NEWS, and my efforts to get it back on track attest to that. I only say I think NEWS sucks when some dumbfuck (perhaps relatives of yours) starts talking about what I think again, rather than deal with the fact that The Onion's award to NEWS shed some "scary" truth on Prince's sad career. Just look at your own post here, bungwipe...YOU once again brought up my feelings for NEWS. YOU did. I keep saying it's about what The Onion thinks. But Prince Yesmen like yourself can't fit that into your lameass trope, and have to bring it back to what I think, and attack me personally. Again, who fucking cares what I think?!?!?!?! This isn't about me. If you can't grasp that, then fuck off and refrain from replying. If you can get that fact through your goddamn skull, then stop talking about me and my tastes, and show us all how this pathetic CD can possibly be considered essential to ANYONE but the small collection of hardcore fanatics that Prince has left. Are you big enough for this challenge? If not, then have a nice day! "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
N.E.W.S. is absolutly NOT commercial, just like The Secret Life Of Plants of Steve Wonder was. This is an album u have to listen to it 3 or four times before to see the LIGHT. It's far better than Xpectation and really IS a Prince material. Just like 1999 and Madhouse 8 were at the times. I a very proud of an Artist who can sold out concerts with funk-Rock-jazzy material with TINY promotion. THANK U PRINCE! | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
KingSausage said: chiltonmusic said: Now me personally I love NEWS I think it is the most brilliant thing released this year by far and I feel it is very good. See when Prince starts a trend it does not mean someone before hasn't done it before it just that someone hasn't done it in a while (you know like fashion trends) a major artist releasing an instrumental album is a big deal.
Please tell me that you don't REALLY think that Prince started a trend with NEWS! There's no adequate emoticon for my reaction...I'd need a little smiley face guy laughing so hard that he's shitting through his nose and going into cardiac arrest... Ask yourself who else in music with Prince's stature (yes he still has stature if he completely fell off you would never hear his name spoken and there would be no need for this web site this discussion) would or could release an instrumental Seal no, Sting possibly but he won't, Lenny Kravitz it I doubt it. Of his contemporaries Prince is still the leader in my opinion.
Jesus this is stupid...I will ask myself what other artists have released instrumentals...Hmm...Bowie, Lou Reed, Brian Eno, U2, etc. A lot. The only trend Prince might be starting with NEWS is a whole lot more CDs in the bargain bins at your local CD Exchange. Wait, no, that would mean that people BOUGHT IT in the first place! Nevermind. Yeah man Lou Reed is not nor has he ever been of Prince's stature Bowie yes and I am unaware of a U2 instrumental album to date (I was referring to albums not a song I want to make that point clear).Brian Eno is a producer and not a solo artist of any stature that I am aware of and definetly not Prince's. I defend the trend statement. You are not undertanding this and I will say it again because if you don't understand that of course it will seem stupid as you say. Trends do not have to be new they can be something from the past that is why I gave you the fashion example as a point. We are now in the days with cars where the trend is retro cars basically started by Chrysler and the PT Cruiser. I don't think if you asked Prince he would say he was reinventing the wheel he just wanted to do something different from today's overly processed music scene. Back in the day you had Herbie Hancock and Quincy Jones doing instrumentals but now a days not lately and if you know please share. Also this is just a discussion I just like you am not going to change my opinion over this I love NEWS to me it is good to you it is not. One thing is not going to change NEWS was nominated for a Grammy. Regardless of how you feel. He might win he might loose regardless of how I feel.I believe that Grammy's are alright. They merely judge the music of today. Though I believe that Prince and any true artist must create without needing praise from peers to be complete. I also have to say that accussing someone of being a hypocrite is like acussing someone of breathing everyone reverses course on issues from time to time the key is not to do that all the time.We see this daily in politics and in entertainment hell if our everyday lives and as you pointed out on this site. I am also curious because I am a U2 fan and I am truly unaware of them having an instrumental album please tell me so that I can give this a real listen as they are one of my favorite bands. I am enjoying this debate so I await your response. THE CARDINAL HAS SPOKEN!!! | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Hye KingSausage I am also curious as to why you hate this album so much? I know that you think it is a piece of shit but tell me what you don't like. I don't get offended by this and I think it is silly when people do. I mean you like TRC and you stated why so it is obvious that you are not a casual Prince fan. But whenever people say they don't like a Prince album they say its a piece of this or that. I am interested in what you do or don't like I mean give me a KingSausage review of it if you will.
Peace THE CARDINAL HAS SPOKEN!!! | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Rey de las salchichas...,
you make valid points, which would come across as more convincing if you could leave the personal slurs out. You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
chiltonmusic said: Hye KingSausage I am also curious as to why you hate this album so much? I know that you think it is a piece of shit but tell me what you don't like. I don't get offended by this and I think it is silly when people do. I mean you like TRC and you stated why so it is obvious that you are not a casual Prince fan. But whenever people say they don't like a Prince album they say its a piece of this or that. I am interested in what you do or don't like I mean give me a KingSausage review of it if you will.
Peace Peace...sorry I leaped down your throat there a bit. What I don't dig about NEWS (and please note, FutureShock, that I am replying to a specific request here) is that it is boring and relatively uncreative. Although I like the song East and portions of South, the rest is terrible. Listen to the "instrumental jam" at the beginning of the "Small Club" concert...the Madhouse material...some of the shit of famous boots like "Emporium"...Prince is capable of much, much more. NEWS is far below his level. The playing is great, but the actual material is very weak. I've seen the man play at the Park many times from five feet away...NEWS is a pathetic excuse from Prince...he could do much, much more. Regarding U2, check out the album "The Passengers: Original Soundtracks." Although it is not 100% instrumental, most of it is. There is nothing brave and shocking about merely putting out a collection of instrumental material if it's boring and un-risky. Lou Reed's "Metal Music Machine" is risky. Bowie's "Low" and "Heroes" were risky. There are plenty of artists that could get their bands together for an afternoon and release the product of their lite jazz noodling. Just because they have more sense than Prince, and wouldn't subject their fans to such an aural raping, does not mean that we should pretend that Prince is revolutionary for putting out NEWS. Is the fact that there are, GASP, no words! on this album REALLY so startling? Is this how low our expectations of Prince have fallen? I don't want to escalate any sort of snarling match with you, as you do make some great points. But there is NO trend following Prince with NEWS. Who are these mythical other pop artists who are inspired by NEWS's trailblazing, and are rushing to the studio to record their own lite jazz? Where are they??? "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Abrazo said: Rey de las salchichas...,
you make valid points, which would come across as more convincing if you could leave the personal slurs out. Hmmm...perhaps. But it wouldn't be nearly as much fun. "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
KingSausage said: chiltonmusic said: Hye KingSausage I am also curious as to why you hate this album so much? I know that you think it is a piece of shit but tell me what you don't like. I don't get offended by this and I think it is silly when people do. I mean you like TRC and you stated why so it is obvious that you are not a casual Prince fan. But whenever people say they don't like a Prince album they say its a piece of this or that. I am interested in what you do or don't like I mean give me a KingSausage review of it if you will.
Peace Peace...sorry I leaped down your throat there a bit. What I don't dig about NEWS (and please note, FutureShock, that I am replying to a specific request here) is that it is boring and relatively uncreative. Although I like the song East and portions of South, the rest is terrible. Listen to the "instrumental jam" at the beginning of the "Small Club" concert...the Madhouse material...some of the shit of famous boots like "Emporium"...Prince is capable of much, much more. NEWS is far below his level. The playing is great, but the actual material is very weak. I've seen the man play at the Park many times from five feet away...NEWS is a pathetic excuse from Prince...he could do much, much more. Regarding U2, check out the album "The Passengers: Original Soundtracks." Although it is not 100% instrumental, most of it is. There is nothing brave and shocking about merely putting out a collection of instrumental material if it's boring and un-risky. Lou Reed's "Metal Music Machine" is risky. Bowie's "Low" and "Heroes" were risky. There are plenty of artists that could get their bands together for an afternoon and release the product of their lite jazz noodling. Just because they have more sense than Prince, and wouldn't subject their fans to such an aural raping, does not mean that we should pretend that Prince is revolutionary for putting out NEWS. Is the fact that there are, GASP, no words! on this album REALLY so startling? Is this how low our expectations of Prince have fallen? I don't want to escalate any sort of snarling match with you, as you do make some great points. But there is NO trend following Prince with NEWS. Who are these mythical other pop artists who are inspired by NEWS's trailblazing, and are rushing to the studio to record their own lite jazz? Where are they??? Cool I can dig it. Okay now I see where you are coming from. I still say give it the two years rule. Yes you are right the Madhouse albums are just beyond description. I still feel hearing the NEWS songs live would be pretty hot. But I understand what you don't like about it and I can respect that. I think it will take time but don't be surprised if two years from now you catch some cats trying to drop jazz albums at least on the DL. See not everyone can even attempt a jazz album cause well you listen to the radio you know whats up! Now you could be right there may be no ne trying to do a news type record and if so well then just hear me now when I say I stand corrected. Prince is in a very interesting space right now. I honestly don't think he will ever be that super big songs on every radio station type of star any more and honestly I don't think he wants to be. Personally I would be pleased as punch if he just released albums via the club and performed live 250-300 dates a year. But I don't think that he will go that route. So I appreciate what he does genuinely and what I don't I don't. Now I thought TRC was good but I did not connect with it as much as NEWS and granted if I saw him live as much as you have on his own turf I might not be so open to everything he releases. Alright great debate I am sure we will talk again about something on this site. Peace Oh and I thought the emoticon statement was very funny so I just took it that you were passioate about your argument and very, very imaginative!!! THE CARDINAL HAS SPOKEN!!! | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
don't fool yourself if you think that it was nominated for a grammy soley based on it's content, and not becasue he was inducted into the R&R Hall of Fame, this year...
also, the style of Jazz, which NEWS is, is a very "safe" form of musical expression... the album is a nice listen, but it's not ground-breaking or anything one would die to listen to... the foundation of Jazz today, isn't as risqué, as it was in it's heights... p seems to be in a very comfortable place with his music, which is cool, but I much prefer p, and his musical genious, when his roots were tied to a more urban electronic cultural blend... either way, however, he is still a musical genious... | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
KingSausage said: FutureShock said: Here is the question that you didn't bother to read... no excuses this time please.: My point is whether bad, good, essential unessential WHATEVER... the point is "essential" to who??? You say, "the music world in 2003". Who EXACTLY is the music world in 2003? What is your definition of that? I haven't offered any excuses yet, numbnuts. The music world in 2003 would include everyone who purchases music, downloads music, listens to the radio, reviews CDs, etc. With NEWS, you have a once popular, once innovative pop star who now has a TINY, ever-dwindling fan base of cult-mentality fanatics...the album can't be found in stores...most people don't even know of its existence...if they do come across it, they'll find that it's a pompous collection of "lite jazz" elevator music that's bound to put them to sleep, yet declares on its (sub-Photoshop quality) packaging that it's a "new direction in music." That's a pretty fucking sad situation. The riches to rags story here is what makes it inessential. What makes it all so funny is the pathetic desperation with which sorry shits like you need to defend Prince. You say that you don't care if people don't like NEWS. Then why do you care if The Onion declares it Least Essential album of 2003? It doesn't add up. So in your limited point of view, it all comes down to whether or not NEWS is popular? In reality, I don't care what you or the Onion thinks. In all honesty, at this point, I just like irking your nerves because you seem to be wound up pretty tight. I really do think you need a hug or a shrink or something...I mean really, a CD doesn't cause normal people to get as upset as you are... something is definitely wrong. And by the way, did you do a scientific study of everyone who purchased music in 2003 to come to your conclusions? Don't worry, I have no desire to hug you. My point was that you are obviously in NEED of SOMETHING positive and loving in your life if a single CD can draw out the type of negativity that you display.
I have plenty of positivity in my life, buddy. Plenty of it. I'm recently married, working hard and successfully at graduate school, and having fun with whatever I do every day. Perhaps it's my positivity that allows me to have a sense of humor, and not get my fucking panties in a bunch when a humor mag says that NEWS sucks ass. Maybe YOU need a hug??? You call the way you're responding a sense of humor???I think you're going to bust a vessle any moment now. So before that happens, I want you to ask yourself "is NEWS worth it?" My argument in support of NEWS does not rest HEAVILY on its Grammy Nomination. I listed several reasons in addition to the Grammy Nomination. But on a personal note, I couldn't care less if NEWS were nominated for a Grammy. I've always loved NEWS regardless of whether or not it was nominated or liked by anyone else - including you. Furthermore, I'm not trying to "validate" NEWS. NEWS needs no validation - it is what it is.
BULLSHIT. You hypocrite. If you don't care if NEWS was nominated for a Grammy, it wouldn't be part of your defense. You're full of it. The Grammy Nomination point was only a part of my argument because it displays the FACT that others besides myself (being a Prince fan) obviously think that NEWS is a noteworthy album. You on the other hand seem to want to ignore this basic fact. Now whether or not I CARE if NEWS was nominated or not is totally seperate issue. Can't you see that? Or has your anger clouded what little bit of judgement you have? You say that you love TRC because it is"innovative" and "weird" "the way Prince is supposed to be". First of all, your presupposition of what Prince SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be is exactly why you will never be able to appreciate anything like NEWS. You are ESSENTIALLY saying that you already know or have in your mind the kind of music that Prince should create, and anything that falls outside of your narrow-minded view of him is unnaceptable. Again, NEWS is what it is. But I suppose then, that you found NOTHING abosultely nothing "weird" or innovative about NEWS? I ask seeing as how those are the two words you used to describe your new found professed love of TRC.
[qoute] Maybe you need to broaden your music listening experience, amigo. Because there's not a fucking THING that's innovative or weird on NEWS. Not one bit. Listen to Miles, Coltrane, Jarrett, etc. Hell, go listen to Madhouse! Even Prince has done this shit before! Maybe I do have some preconceived notions of what I expect of Prince. But I stand by those notions if expanding my definitions would mean to accept Prince putting out bullshit lite jazz. If I wanted Kenny G., I'd buy Kenny G. Sorry if I have high expectations of Prince. But guess what -- HE set those expectations. Not with Lovesexy. Or TGE. But with TRC. Less than two years before NEWS. Wait...are you going to tell me now that you've never disliked a Prince song or album? If so, then you're even more full of reeking shit than I thought. Since when did you and I become "amigos" and buddies??? But anyway...I suppose you hear stuff like "East" all the time huh? So tell me, what artist does East most remind you of? And are you suggesting that unless an artist creates something totally new under the sun, it cannot be "essential"? Can we stop the "essential" charade by the way? You no good and well that what this all boils down to is the simple fact that YOU (personally) don't like NEWS. You stuck your foot in your mouth, and The Onion article gave you a sense of vendication in the wake of the Grammy Nomination. I understand. You on the other hand seem to be very upset that people actually like NEWS. You keep saying that its not about "liking or disliking" NEWS, its about whether or not the CD is "essential". But then you keep coming back to the same tired and meaningless point that you personally hate NEWS. Then when someone starts talking about liking it, you turn around and say it's not about that. You're running in circles. If it's not about liking or disliking the cd, then why do you keep talking about hating it so much?
Quite the contrary, my dimwitted friend. This thread was never about my personal feelings regarding NEWS, and my efforts to get it back on track attest to that. I only say I think NEWS sucks when some dumbfuck (perhaps relatives of yours) starts talking about what I think again, rather than deal with the fact that The Onion's award to NEWS shed some "scary" truth on Prince's sad career. Just look at your own post here, bungwipe...YOU once again brought up my feelings for NEWS. YOU did. I keep saying it's about what The Onion thinks. But Prince Yesmen like yourself can't fit that into your lameass trope, and have to bring it back to what I think, and attack me personally. Again, who fucking cares what I think?!?!?!?! This isn't about me. If you can't grasp that, then fuck off and refrain from replying. If you can get that fact through your goddamn skull, then stop talking about me and my tastes, and show us all how this pathetic CD can possibly be considered essential to ANYONE but the small collection of hardcore fanatics that Prince has left. Are you big enough for this challenge? If not, then have a nice day! There you go talking about being friends again. Hmmm... "this thread was never about your personal feelings regarding NEWS". Yet for some strange reason, you felt it was your duty to tell everyone what you personally think about NEWS? Interesting. But in anycase, I've already answered your question... the challenge has already been met, you simply don't like the answer that I gave. Unlike you though, I did not and will not try to speak for EVERYONE in the WORLD who purchases music. "You've got to believe in something... why not believe in me?" | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
FutureShock said: KingSausage said: FutureShock said: Here is the question that you didn't bother to read... no excuses this time please.: My point is whether bad, good, essential unessential WHATEVER... the point is "essential" to who??? You say, "the music world in 2003". Who EXACTLY is the music world in 2003? What is your definition of that? I haven't offered any excuses yet, numbnuts. The music world in 2003 would include everyone who purchases music, downloads music, listens to the radio, reviews CDs, etc. With NEWS, you have a once popular, once innovative pop star who now has a TINY, ever-dwindling fan base of cult-mentality fanatics...the album can't be found in stores...most people don't even know of its existence...if they do come across it, they'll find that it's a pompous collection of "lite jazz" elevator music that's bound to put them to sleep, yet declares on its (sub-Photoshop quality) packaging that it's a "new direction in music." That's a pretty fucking sad situation. The riches to rags story here is what makes it inessential. What makes it all so funny is the pathetic desperation with which sorry shits like you need to defend Prince. You say that you don't care if people don't like NEWS. Then why do you care if The Onion declares it Least Essential album of 2003? It doesn't add up. So in your limited point of view, it all comes down to whether or not NEWS is popular? In reality, I don't care what you or the Onion thinks. In all honesty, at this point, I just like irking your nerves because you seem to be wound up pretty tight. I really do think you need a hug or a shrink or something...I mean really, a CD doesn't cause normal people to get as upset as you are... something is definitely wrong. And by the way, did you do a scientific study of everyone who purchased music in 2003 to come to your conclusions? Don't worry, I have no desire to hug you. My point was that you are obviously in NEED of SOMETHING positive and loving in your life if a single CD can draw out the type of negativity that you display.
I have plenty of positivity in my life, buddy. Plenty of it. I'm recently married, working hard and successfully at graduate school, and having fun with whatever I do every day. Perhaps it's my positivity that allows me to have a sense of humor, and not get my fucking panties in a bunch when a humor mag says that NEWS sucks ass. Maybe YOU need a hug??? You call the way you're responding a sense of humor???I think you're going to bust a vessle any moment now. So before that happens, I want you to ask yourself "is NEWS worth it?" My argument in support of NEWS does not rest HEAVILY on its Grammy Nomination. I listed several reasons in addition to the Grammy Nomination. But on a personal note, I couldn't care less if NEWS were nominated for a Grammy. I've always loved NEWS regardless of whether or not it was nominated or liked by anyone else - including you. Furthermore, I'm not trying to "validate" NEWS. NEWS needs no validation - it is what it is.
BULLSHIT. You hypocrite. If you don't care if NEWS was nominated for a Grammy, it wouldn't be part of your defense. You're full of it. The Grammy Nomination point was only a part of my argument because it displays the FACT that others besides myself (being a Prince fan) obviously think that NEWS is a noteworthy album. You on the other hand seem to want to ignore this basic fact. Now whether or not I CARE if NEWS was nominated or not is totally seperate issue. Can't you see that? Or has your anger clouded what little bit of judgement you have? You say that you love TRC because it is"innovative" and "weird" "the way Prince is supposed to be". First of all, your presupposition of what Prince SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be is exactly why you will never be able to appreciate anything like NEWS. You are ESSENTIALLY saying that you already know or have in your mind the kind of music that Prince should create, and anything that falls outside of your narrow-minded view of him is unnaceptable. Again, NEWS is what it is. But I suppose then, that you found NOTHING abosultely nothing "weird" or innovative about NEWS? I ask seeing as how those are the two words you used to describe your new found professed love of TRC.
[qoute] Maybe you need to broaden your music listening experience, amigo. Because there's not a fucking THING that's innovative or weird on NEWS. Not one bit. Listen to Miles, Coltrane, Jarrett, etc. Hell, go listen to Madhouse! Even Prince has done this shit before! Maybe I do have some preconceived notions of what I expect of Prince. But I stand by those notions if expanding my definitions would mean to accept Prince putting out bullshit lite jazz. If I wanted Kenny G., I'd buy Kenny G. Sorry if I have high expectations of Prince. But guess what -- HE set those expectations. Not with Lovesexy. Or TGE. But with TRC. Less than two years before NEWS. Wait...are you going to tell me now that you've never disliked a Prince song or album? If so, then you're even more full of reeking shit than I thought. Since when did you and I become "amigos" and buddies??? But anyway...I suppose you hear stuff like "East" all the time huh? So tell me, what artist does East most remind you of? And are you suggesting that unless an artist creates something totally new under the sun, it cannot be "essential"? Can we stop the "essential" charade by the way? You no good and well that what this all boils down to is the simple fact that YOU (personally) don't like NEWS. You stuck your foot in your mouth, and The Onion article gave you a sense of vendication in the wake of the Grammy Nomination. I understand. You on the other hand seem to be very upset that people actually like NEWS. You keep saying that its not about "liking or disliking" NEWS, its about whether or not the CD is "essential". But then you keep coming back to the same tired and meaningless point that you personally hate NEWS. Then when someone starts talking about liking it, you turn around and say it's not about that. You're running in circles. If it's not about liking or disliking the cd, then why do you keep talking about hating it so much?
Quite the contrary, my dimwitted friend. This thread was never about my personal feelings regarding NEWS, and my efforts to get it back on track attest to that. I only say I think NEWS sucks when some dumbfuck (perhaps relatives of yours) starts talking about what I think again, rather than deal with the fact that The Onion's award to NEWS shed some "scary" truth on Prince's sad career. Just look at your own post here, bungwipe...YOU once again brought up my feelings for NEWS. YOU did. I keep saying it's about what The Onion thinks. But Prince Yesmen like yourself can't fit that into your lameass trope, and have to bring it back to what I think, and attack me personally. Again, who fucking cares what I think?!?!?!?! This isn't about me. If you can't grasp that, then fuck off and refrain from replying. If you can get that fact through your goddamn skull, then stop talking about me and my tastes, and show us all how this pathetic CD can possibly be considered essential to ANYONE but the small collection of hardcore fanatics that Prince has left. Are you big enough for this challenge? If not, then have a nice day! There you go talking about being friends again. Hmmm... "this thread was never about your personal feelings regarding NEWS". Yet for some strange reason, you felt it was your duty to tell everyone what you personally think about NEWS? Interesting. But in anycase, I've already answered your question... the challenge has already been met, you simply don't like the answer that I gave. Unlike you though, I did not and will not try to speak for EVERYONE in the WORLD who purchases music. Futureshock, you're not very good at this are you? When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
chiltonmusic said: Cool I can dig it. Okay now I see where you are coming from. I still say give it the two years rule. Yes you are right the Madhouse albums are just beyond description. I still feel hearing the NEWS songs live would be pretty hot. But I understand what you don't like about it and I can respect that. I think it will take time but don't be surprised if two years from now you catch some cats trying to drop jazz albums at least on the DL. See not everyone can even attempt a jazz album cause well you listen to the radio you know whats up! Now you could be right there may be no ne trying to do a news type record and if so well then just hear me now when I say I stand corrected. Prince is in a very interesting space right now. I honestly don't think he will ever be that super big songs on every radio station type of star any more and honestly I don't think he wants to be. Personally I would be pleased as punch if he just released albums via the club and performed live 250-300 dates a year. But I don't think that he will go that route. So I appreciate what he does genuinely and what I don't I don't. Now I thought TRC was good but I did not connect with it as much as NEWS and granted if I saw him live as much as you have on his own turf I might not be so open to everything he releases. Alright great debate I am sure we will talk again about something on this site. Peace Oh and I thought the emoticon statement was very funny so I just took it that you were passioate about your argument and very, very imaginative!!! Thanks for the reply...you may be right. I'll have to see what the future holds for NEWS. I may be too pessimistic!  The thing about NEWS is, although I don't care for it much, the level of musicianship on the album (couple with ONA, TRC, etc.) makes me VERY excited about what Prince might do in the near future. Maybe he's just warming up his systems, and he'll kick my ass with another TRC-esque adventure next year?"Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
bkw said: Futureshock, you're not very good at this are you? No, bkw, he's terrible at this. FutureShock, I think you should go back and re-read this thread. It may change how defensive you're being. I can assure you that NEWS is not some important element of my life, and The Onion's recent designation did not provide me with any rushing sensation of "vindication." You're taking this shit way too seriously. And perhaps so am I. Which brings me to my next point...you said that you are largely arguing just to irk me. Well, to be fully honest, that's a good deal of my motivation too. I'll be the first to agree to disagree, and stop debating with each other on this thread. Or at least start over. To do so does not mean that I think that you "won" the argument. And it certainly does not mean that I think that I "won." It just means that neither one of us is realistically going to change the other's mind, and a pissing contest between us is now the focus of this discussion. I'm sure you can agree to that."Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
To begin to get this thread back on track, I'd like to see if people can dissect The Onion's writings on NEWS, bit-by-bit, to SHOW how what they're saying is wrong...and to demonstrate that NEWS is essential to anyone but a handfull of Prince fans and a few critics (questionable Grammy nomination aside). I don't want to hear why so-and-so thinks that NEWS is "good." I want to hear why it should be thought of as essential. Here's The Onion's shit again:
"Prince - N.E.W.S. There was a time when Prince's every eccentric move was extensively documented, from his name changes to label battles that culminated in him scrawling the word "SLAVE" on his face to document the harrowing plight of internationally beloved multimillionaire pop superstars. Now, he's been reduced to a puzzling obscurity, as he self-releases a string of increasingly indulgent vanity projects to a tiny circle of loyalists. (Today, it's easier to find any of The String Cheese Incident's dozens of live albums than it is to track down a new studio album by Prince.) Remember when The Artist's "emancipation" from his record label meant fans would finally have the chance to crack open his mythical vault—which many assumed would contain 15 or 20 long-suppressed equivalents of Sign O' The Times or The Black Album? Instead, in 2003, they have the chance to almost unanimously ignore N.E.W.S., which contains four dull, 14-minute jazz-funk instrumental odysseys: "North," "East," "West," and "South." N.E.W.S., get it? The result is uncompromising, to be sure, but rarely has a once-great musician sounded so uncompromising and so inessential at the same time." "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
KS,
you know all the sense you make is just wasted on the majority of devotees here, don't you? trying to convince the fams that NEWS is inessential would be like going to a scientology meating and trying to convince John Travolta that Dianectics is tripe or going to church and arguing that Jesus scratched his ass like the rest of us. ain't gonna happen. dumbass this message brought to you by logic. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
|
KingSausage said: Who gives a fuck what KingSausage thinks of NEWS? Seriously, why do you wankers care? The bottom line is that Prince has always been a huge innovator...even if the public didn't care, many critics still acknolwedged his talents. In 2003, however, this once mighty artist was reduced to releasing an incredibly cheap looking boring set of instrumental poop that was impossible to find in stores assuming that the public even knew it existed in the first place. If people DID find it, they can consider themselves lucky.
- I am happy that Prince has chances of winning a Grammy, but on the other hand, I feel some kind of frustration. Because Prince, as an innovator, could have done a much more daring and interesting instrumental album. Instrumental albums doesn´t have to be bland. Miles Davis and Zappa recorded some essential instrumental albums, and EVEN PRINCE did some real interesting and creative instrumentals (Madhouse) that even Miles Davis covered. ´NEWS´ was for Prince maybe a moment of relaxing, jamming. But I would be a lot more happy if Prince won a Grammy for a kick ass intrumental album, showing new directions. |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
|
KingSausage said: To begin to get this thread back on track, I'd like to see if people can dissect The Onion's writings on NEWS, bit-by-bit, to SHOW how what they're saying is wrong...and to demonstrate that NEWS is essential to anyone but a handfull of Prince fans and a few critics (questionable Grammy nomination aside). I don't want to hear why so-and-so thinks that NEWS is "good." I want to hear why it should be thought of as essential. Here's The Onion's shit again:
"Prince - N.E.W.S. There was a time when Prince's every eccentric move was extensively documented, from his name changes to label battles that culminated in him scrawling the word "SLAVE" on his face to document the harrowing plight of internationally beloved multimillionaire pop superstars. Now, he's been reduced to a puzzling obscurity, as he self-releases a string of increasingly indulgent vanity projects to a tiny circle of loyalists. (Today, it's easier to find any of The String Cheese Incident's dozens of live albums than it is to track down a new studio album by Prince.) Remember when The Artist's "emancipation" from his record label meant fans would finally have the chance to crack open his mythical vault—which many assumed would contain 15 or 20 long-suppressed equivalents of Sign O' The Times or The Black Album? Instead, in 2003, they have the chance to almost unanimously ignore N.E.W.S., which contains four dull, 14-minute jazz-funk instrumental odysseys: "North," "East," "West," and "South." N.E.W.S., get it? The result is uncompromising, to be sure, but rarely has a once-great musician sounded so uncompromising and so inessential at the same time." - On the other hand, look how the reviewers talk about an ESSENTIAL instrumental album (Miles Davis ´Bitches Brew´): In a career full of archetypal recordings, Bitches Brew still stands out. With the release of the original double LP, Miles Davis drew a line in the sand that some jazz fans have never crossed, or even forgiven Davis for drawing. The album was both a coalescence of ideas that had been brewing for several years and a sharp break with Davis's past. He had already experimented with electric keyboards, rock guitars and beats, and the use of studio post-production as a compositional tool. On Bitches Brew he foregrounded all those elements by assembling the album from several days of rhythmic studio improvisations by a large, electrified band. Instead of the concern with sophisticated harmonic and structural experimentation that had preoccupied his classic mid-60s quintet, he focused on simpler melodies suspended over dense electric textures and churning grooves. Davis's baleful trumpet playing, often treated with studio effects, towered over the music's roiling surface like a beacon. The album won him a new audience of adventurous rock fans, but alienated long-time enthusiasts who had no time for the contemporary pop vocabulary and considered Davis a traitor to jazz for incorporating it. Twenty years on, the album stands outside of any genre but endures as commanding, absorbing music. Can you all see the difference?  |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Its amazing to me how this article is creating such strong reactions in people. Y'see folks, this is The Onion, a comedy publication. To take it seriously, whether positive or negative, is a bit silly. 
Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9) | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
|
JediMaster said: Its amazing to me how this article is creating such strong reactions in people. Y'see folks, this is The Onion, a comedy publication. To take it seriously, whether positive or negative, is a bit silly.
- That´s not the point...living in Brasil, I dont even know what the Onion is...the point is that this article shows some truth about Prince that some fans agree and others not. ´NEWS´ will be seen as a minor work in Prince´s discography, you can be sure. |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Printable