Militant said:

I like Fdeluxe, and I like Neil, I have spoken with him a few times.

But I'm still seeing Prince's point.

It's not about other bands being called The Family or whatever. It's about THIS band, which is a band that Prince put together, and a band that (so far) has only ever released ONE album, of which Prince was responsible for writing all the songs (bar River Run Dry), playing every single note you hear on the album (bar Clare's orchestral arrangements and Eric's horns, neither of which lead or dictate the structure or key melodies of the songs), the entire look of the band was conceptualized by Prince, and the release, videos, and promotion of the album were funded by Prince from the overall budget that WB gave him for Paisley Park Records.

It simply isn't fair to capitalize on any of that without Prince's involvement. Furthermore, it affects his reputation. Only the hardcore fans like us (the minority) would know that he actually has no involvement in it.

They go out using the name "The Family" in ANY way, people will google for the info and what will they see? Prince's work. "The Family was a band created by Prince in 1985, known for the songs Screams of Passion and Nothing Compares 2 U" etc etc etc.

Guaranteed, vast majority of people that would hear the music or see the band live, would simply assume that it's still Prince behind the boards, writing the music, etc. They don't care enough to research or distinguish the difference or find out what the deal is.

The Time understand that. They wouldn't go out and just do whatever the hell they want as "The Time" without making sure it was cool on Prince, because they're going out there, using a brand that everyone knows he created, playing songs that people know he wrote. It's just respect.

I would hope that Paul, Susannah et al reached out to Prince before deciding to reignite the project and ask if he wanted to be involved, but I have a suspicion that that's not how it went down.

So again, it's about showing respect to the person that not only has a legal claim to that brand and it's history, but more importantly was the person that created it all. That put all the work in for the whole thing to even have existed in the FIRST place.

Adding to the complexity of the entire matter is the fact that (even if they all claimed otherwise) there's UNDOUBTEDLY some unresolved feelings SOMEWHERE with both Paul and Susannah, as far as Paul bailing on the project the first time around, and Prince and Susannah's break-up. Musically it's pretty evident that Prince was extremely upset at both of those situations (obviously the latter more so, but 'Dream Factory' made it pretty clear how he felt about Paul leaving).

That personal stuff might well be water under the bridge as far as we all know, but on top of the other stuff, it's still something else in the mix, no matter how minor.

I think there's more to the issue than just the name. Most of Prince's proteges/co-writers/collabrators have had issues with money (sometimes getting paid at all is an issue) and he's been sued many times for songwriting royalties (Levi Seacer, Tony M, Susannah, Sandra St Victor, the people he covered on his albums like Emanipation). And let's not even start on his unpaid legal bills, property taxes etc. Everyone knows St Paul the group but the real reason he left has never been made public. I bet it was over money and Prince's shady business dealings. The man has a history of having 1 rule for himself (Slave!!) and another for the rest of the world. I think if business had been done right in the first place the band and the manager wouldn't be standing their ground so strongly.

Prince is a douchebag for doing this. Period.

Yes, all the members of the band should be well aware of his douchebaggery and maybe should have considered that before trying to name it "The Family." Whatever. The only reason he wins this is he has more money than they do and therefore can bully everyone with his pettiness. It's not because he has a real legit case.

I'm starting to think Jill was exactly right: He's not a happy human being at all. He's a miserable one.

funksterr said:

Militant said:

It simply isn't fair to capitalize on any of that without Prince's involvement. Furthermore, it affects his reputation. Only the hardcore fans like us (the minority) would know that he actually has no involvement in it.

How is that in anyway different from when Prince left Warner Borthers? Did he not capitalize on all of Warner's investment into his development as an Artist and as a brand?

It's COMPLETELY different. If Warners hadn't pumped money into Prince, somebody ELSE would have pumped the same amount of money and time in. It's just money. It's cold. It has no ARTISTIC value.

You're really comparing simple MONEY to ART? Songs that Prince WROTE and PLAYED? Have you ever written a song? Cos I'm a professional songwriter.... and my songs mean more to me than any amount of money you can name. Pretty obvious Prince feels the same.

At the end of the day, you can twist and dissect it every which way you want, the FACT remains that the only reason this group of people came together and became a known entity is because of Prince and HIS music. Fact.

Do you know who gave them idea to reform? It was ?uestlove from The Roots. Now if you know anything about ?uest, when it comes to celebrities who are huge Prince fans, he's the biggest. The guy wrote a list for Rolling Stone of his favorite Prince jams and included "Baby I'm A Star" live from Landover on the Purple Rain Tour, "Tricky", "Cloreen Bacon Skin", the REHEARSAL demo of "The Bird" and the original P demo to "The Sex Of It". Yeah - he's one of us.

What was his motivation for encouraging them to reform? The simple fact that he's a huge Prince fan and loved their album.......again... an album of songs written, played and produced by Prince.

So again, slice it however you want, but if there's any connection to the original project, whether it's wanting to use the bandname for the band, or for the album, or whatever, that is PRINCE'S call to make. Not theirs. Because "The Family" was not a band that formed itself, funded itself, released an album of songs they wrote themselves. It's really that simple.

I will tell you right now - if I formed a protege act, signed them to a major record deal, funded their entire project from recording, to videos, to PR, wrote and played everything on their songs, designed their image, then they broke up, and 25 years later those people decided they wanted to get back together and rebuild something new for themselves off the back of what I did, I'd do exactly what Prince is doing right now. And most artists I know would say the same.

People say "oh Prince should relax, it's not a big deal, it doesn't matter". If I didn't matter - they wouldn't care about using the name.

sosgemini - I'm not talking about them simply informing him about what they wanted to do, I'm talking about them asking permission to use his trademarked property, his branding, and offering him a level of input, if not a degree of control. That's fair. That's what The Time did with "Pandemonium". Jimmy, Terry, Jesse and Monte all wrote for that album. Because they understood that it was Prince's property, Prince started, funded and wrote the songs for the project, and whatever they do reflects in one way or another on him.

^^^^Would you say all the same about Sheila? Prince named her Sheila E., after all.

the only thing i can think of that exonerates his actions in this regard is that using the name The Family could generate what's called brand confusion in trademark law.

in order to protect a trademark, the owner of the mark has to literally put peolpe on notice in writing that their chosen mark infringes on the old mark.

it just has to be done to preserve the legal boundaries involved in trademarks.

that's all if got. if it's not that, prince should just chill

purplethunder3121 said:

purplenuts said:

I back his position all the way. He has legal rights and he is protecting them.

Legal rights to what--if they aren't using the name "the Family" and using their own brand new music?!

Shut up we do not even know what the letter is about and "The Family " is coming off as being a bunch a nitwits who would keep posting about this crap everday. When the hell is the recording going to be out.

http://www.trademarkia.co...92684.html

Militant said:

funksterr said:

How is that in anyway different from when Prince left Warner Borthers? Did he not capitalize on all of Warner's investment into his development as an Artist and as a brand?

It's COMPLETELY different. If Warners hadn't pumped money into Prince, somebody ELSE would have pumped the same amount of money and time in. It's just money. It's cold. It has no ARTISTIC value.

You're really comparing simple MONEY to ART? Songs that Prince WROTE and PLAYED? Have you ever written a song? Cos I'm a professional songwriter.... and my songs mean more to me than any amount of money you can name. Pretty obvious Prince feels the same.

At the end of the day, you can twist and dissect it every which way you want, the FACT remains that the only reason this group of people came together and became a known entity is because of Prince and HIS music. Fact.

Do you know who gave them idea to reform? It was ?uestlove from The Roots. Now if you know anything about ?uest, when it comes to celebrities who are huge Prince fans, he's the biggest. The guy wrote a list for Rolling Stone of his favorite Prince jams and included "Baby I'm A Star" live from Landover on the Purple Rain Tour, "Tricky", "Cloreen Bacon Skin", the REHEARSAL demo of "The Bird" and the original P demo to "The Sex Of It". Yeah - he's one of us.

What was his motivation for encouraging them to reform? The simple fact that he's a huge Prince fan and loved their album.......again... an album of songs written, played and produced by Prince.

So again, slice it however you want, but if there's any connection to the original project, whether it's wanting to use the bandname for the band, or for the album, or whatever, that is PRINCE'S call to make. Not theirs. Because "The Family" was not a band that formed itself, funded itself, released an album of songs they wrote themselves. It's really that simple.

I will tell you right now - if I formed a protege act, signed them to a major record deal, funded their entire project from recording, to videos, to PR, wrote and played everything on their songs, designed their image, then they broke up, and 25 years later those people decided they wanted to get back together and rebuild something new for themselves off the back of what I did, I'd do exactly what Prince is doing right now. And most artists I know would say the same.

People say "oh Prince should relax, it's not a big deal, it doesn't matter". If I didn't matter - they wouldn't care about using the name.

sosgemini - I'm not talking about them simply informing him about what they wanted to do, I'm talking about them asking permission to use his trademarked property, his branding, and offering him a level of input, if not a degree of control. That's fair. That's what The Time did with "Pandemonium". Jimmy, Terry, Jesse and Monte all wrote for that album. Because they understood that it was Prince's property, Prince started, funded and wrote the songs for the project, and whatever they do reflects in one way or another on him.

Wow. You are clueless. Sure the guys at the top of the WB food chain probably are all about the $$, but i worked for WEA back in the day and I can tell you the promotions people were creative as SHIT! And if they loved an artist they worked TIRELESSLY! Prince has no clue that the feet on the ground helped sell him, not the dudes raking in the cash. Plenty of über talented musicians NEVER made it because the labels hung them out to dry and didn't support them. Prince IS talented and he has written great songs, but he would NOT have the career he does if he was not supported by his label (and sure you can argue hypothetically all you want..I'm talking about reality specifically in regards to Prince).

I am also a professional in the arts now (not the musical kind) and frankly, if I had the career Prince has had I'd not only GIVE them the name, I'd have them collaborate with me. SO you might be that selfish, but not EVERYONE is. Now I see how you can support such weaseliness...you'd do it too!

He also did not fund them- Paisley Park was an offshoot of WB. I am betting those bills went directly to the LA offices. Whether the label saw a dime out of the PP vanity label would be interesting to know. Chances are they supported the lable to keep P happy.

You have no idea what transpired at the outset. Maybe they asked and he said no to the name. Maybe he said yes on conditions. Who knows. In the end he is just as bad as the soul less label types you blanketly condemn. Also, from what I can tell the Family Jamm was where they first started to consider a new CD. The program had a hint of it in an ad that looked VERY "Family" like. So your assumptions of the "only" reason is ?uestlove is just more speculation.

laurarichardson said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Legal rights to what--if they aren't using the name "the Family" and using their own brand new music?!

Shut up we do not even know what the letter is about and "The Family " is coming off as being a bunch a nitwits who would keep posting about this crap everday. When the hell is the recording going to be out.

Lets see - they straight up posted both the deal with the letter and the date of release on their Facebook site. I reposted it on the last page. Try paying attention instead of randomly dropping in to call people nitwits and ask a question already covered.

squirrelgrease said:

On Wednesday, July 29, 2009, a U.S. federal trademark registration was filed for THE FAMILY. This trademark is owned by Paisley Park Enterprises, Inc., Chanhassen, MN 55317. The USPTO has given the THE FAMILY trademark serial number of 77792684. The current federal status of this trademark filing is REPORT COMPLETED SUSPENSION CHECK - CASE STILL SUSPENDED.

Word Mark:	THE FAMILY
Status/ Status Date:	REPORT COMPLETED SUSPENSION CHECK - CASE STILL SUSPENDED 11/30/2010
Serial Number:	77792684
Filing Date:	7/29/2009
Registration Number:	NOT AVAILABLE
Registration Date:	NOT AVAILABLE
Goods and Services:	Musical sound recordings, musical video recordings
Mark Description:	NOT AVAILABLE
Type Of Mark:	Service Mark
Published For Opposition Date:	N/A
Latest Owner:	Paisley Park Enterprises, Inc. Chanhassen, MN 55317 Why is this contact information displayed?
Mark Drawing Code:	Standard Character Mark
Design Search:	(NO DATA)
Register Type:	Principal
Disclaimer:	(NOT AVAILABLE)
Correspondent:	DEIRDRE DAVIS 1633 ... NEW YORK, NY 10019-6708
Related Tags:	musical sound recordings musical video recordings
Classification Information
International Class Code(s): 009 US Class Code(s): 021, 023, 026, 036, 038 Primary Class: Scientific, nautical, surveying, photographic, cinematographic, optical, weighing, measuring, signalling, checking (supervision), life-saving and teaching apparatus and instruments; apparatus and instruments for conducting, switching, transforming, accumulating, regulating or controlling electricity; apparatus for recording, transmission or reproduction of sound or images; magnetic data carriers, recording discs; automatic vending machines and mechanisms for coin operated apparatus; cash registers, calculating machines, data processing equipment and computers; fire extinguishing apparatus. Class(es) Status: Active First Use Anywhere: NOT PROVIDED First Use In Commerce: NOT PROVIDED International Class Code(s): 025 US Class Code(s): 022, 039 Primary Class: Clothing, footwear, headgear. Class(es) Status: Active First Use Anywhere: NOT PROVIDED First Use In Commerce: NOT PROVIDED International Class Code(s): 041 US Class Code(s): 100, 101, 107 Primary Class: Education; providing of training; entertainment; sporting and cultural activities. Class(es) Status: Active First Use Anywhere: NOT PROVIDED First Use In Commerce: NOT PROVIDED
The correspondent listed for THE FAMILY is DEIRDRE DAVIS of DAVIS..., 1633 ..., NEW YORK, NY 10019-6708 . The THE FAMILY trademark is filed in the category of Computer & Software Products & Electrical & Scientific Products , Clothing Products , Education and Entertainment Services . The description provided to the USPTO forTHE FAMILY is Musical sound recordings, musical video recordings. Trademarkia is the largest search engine for U.S. trademarks. Each month hundreds of trademarks around the world are filed by licensed attorneys in the Trademarkia network! You can register your trademark in 55+ countries in the world through Trademarkia Network. Trademarkia.com is a free search engine of publicly available government records. Trademarkia.com is not a law firm and does not represent owners & correspondents listed on this page.
Click here to see what pe...Y >>
Trademark Document Retrieval >>

http://www.trademarkia.co...92684.html

If you look at what was posted on FB - P. Diddy OWNS the trademark to The Family.

Militant said:

So again, it's about showing respect to the person that not only has a legal claim to that brand and it's history, but more importantly was the person that created it all. That put all the work in for the whole thing to even have existed in the FIRST place.

He doesn't have a legal claim. Neil posted that on FB (and I always suspected it for years).

Even if he did, no one can copyright a TITLE, so at the very lesat they should be able to call the album "The Family" and ideally they shoudl still be able to call themselves that.

I still don't know why they aren't, unloess it's just to keep good relationship with him or to avoid a legal battle which they would ulitmatley win but not be able to afford to keep up.

Militant said:

funksterr said:

How is that in anyway different from when Prince left Warner Borthers? Did he not capitalize on all of Warner's investment into his development as an Artist and as a brand?

It's COMPLETELY different. If Warners hadn't pumped money into Prince, somebody ELSE would have pumped the same amount of money and time in. It's just money. It's cold. It has no ARTISTIC value.

You're really comparing simple MONEY to ART? Songs that Prince WROTE and PLAYED? Have you ever written a song? Cos I'm a professional songwriter.... and my songs mean more to me than any amount of money you can name. Pretty obvious Prince feels the same.

At the end of the day, you can twist and dissect it every which way you want, the FACT remains that the only reason this group of people came together and became a known entity is because of Prince and HIS music. Fact. the same.

It's ALL about marketing dollars. The music is the easy part. That's why Immature and Milli Vanilli had careers.

WB seeded Prince, Prince seeded The Family.

Prince outgrew WB's control, The Family outgrew Prince's control.

You argue Prince has a moral right to control these human beings in perpetuity simply because he ghost wrote an album for them under another name 25 years ago. That is not only completely against the spirit of modern contract law, but a shameful attitude for one artist to have toward the aspirations of other artists.

You speak in reverence about Prince's art, Prince's rights, Prince's talent but where is your respect for the rights of the lesser known artists who play significant roles in Prince's success. They may not be big stars, but in my opinion they are just as equally deserving as Prince. IMO, Prince has pretty much no legal standing to take actions against them, no compelling reason to really give a damn what they do and he comes off as an incredibly petty individual to attempt to block new releases by any of the former Paisley Park artists.

XxAxX said:

the only thing i can think of that exonerates his actions in this regard is that using the name The Family could generate what's called brand confusion in trademark law.

in order to protect a trademark, the owner of the mark has to literally put peolpe on notice in writing that their chosen mark infringes on the old mark.

it just has to be done to preserve the legal boundaries involved in trademarks.

that's all if got. if it's not that, prince should just chill

I was thinking this as well. I don't think it exonerates Prince though. A reunited Family will undoubtedly increase interest in the original album which ought to result in more money for Prince.

Since Prince has decided to exercise control over his former side projects so many years later, I hope he's planning to give us remastered versions of those albums, at least on vinyl.

I'm surprised to hear that The Family is such a famous group. I didn't know that they had many fans outside the circle of hardcore Prince fans, who will listen to their new album regardless of what it is called.

Zannaloaf said:

straight from Fdeluxes facebook site:

The group agreed to change the group's name initially as Prince claimed he owned it (which I found through research was untrue). Of course once I knew this I questioned his claim with his people. Once we decided we were going to use fDeluxe we thought the smartest option would to be use 'The Family' as the title (or even the word "family" in the title somewhere) which would give us a link to the 1985 album. After all there are numerous songs/album titles that are the same (i.e 'Don't Be Cruel', 'Thriller') and there is no law against titles being the same so we thought there would be no issue.Plus "Family" is such a generic name (there are numerous groups who came after this one with Family in their name i.e Puff Daddy & The Family - "diddy" owns that mark btw - The Family Stand, Family, La Famile etc) it is used a lot in album and song titles. If we were calling it something like "Purple Rain", "Baduizm" or "Cookie: The Anthropological MixTape" that would obviously be not on!!! Hope that clears that up for you! Neil p.s did I mention fDeluxe 'Gaslight' out week commencing September 12?????

Militant said:

funksterr said:

How is that in anyway different from when Prince left Warner Borthers? Did he not capitalize on all of Warner's investment into his development as an Artist and as a brand?

It's COMPLETELY different. If Warners hadn't pumped money into Prince, somebody ELSE would have pumped the same amount of money and time in. It's just money. It's cold. It has no ARTISTIC value.

You're really comparing simple MONEY to ART? Songs that Prince WROTE and PLAYED? Have you ever written a song? Cos I'm a professional songwriter.... and my songs mean more to me than any amount of money you can name. Pretty obvious Prince feels the same.

At the end of the day, you can twist and dissect it every which way you want, the FACT remains that the only reason this group of people came together and became a known entity is because of Prince and HIS music. Fact.

Do you know who gave them idea to reform? It was ?uestlove from The Roots. Now if you know anything about ?uest, when it comes to celebrities who are huge Prince fans, he's the biggest. The guy wrote a list for Rolling Stone of his favorite Prince jams and included "Baby I'm A Star" live from Landover on the Purple Rain Tour, "Tricky", "Cloreen Bacon Skin", the REHEARSAL demo of "The Bird" and the original P demo to "The Sex Of It". Yeah - he's one of us.

What was his motivation for encouraging them to reform? The simple fact that he's a huge Prince fan and loved their album.......again... an album of songs written, played and produced by Prince.

So again, slice it however you want, but if there's any connection to the original project, whether it's wanting to use the bandname for the band, or for the album, or whatever, that is PRINCE'S call to make. Not theirs. Because "The Family" was not a band that formed itself, funded itself, released an album of songs they wrote themselves. It's really that simple.

I will tell you right now - if I formed a protege act, signed them to a major record deal, funded their entire project from recording, to videos, to PR, wrote and played everything on their songs, designed their image, then they broke up, and 25 years later those people decided they wanted to get back together and rebuild something new for themselves off the back of what I did, I'd do exactly what Prince is doing right now. And most artists I know would say the same.

People say "oh Prince should relax, it's not a big deal, it doesn't matter". If I didn't matter - they wouldn't care about using the name.

sosgemini - I'm not talking about them simply informing him about what they wanted to do, I'm talking about them asking permission to use his trademarked property, his branding, and offering him a level of input, if not a degree of control. That's fair. That's what The Time did with "Pandemonium". Jimmy, Terry, Jesse and Monte all wrote for that album. Because they understood that it was Prince's property, Prince started, funded and wrote the songs for the project, and whatever they do reflects in one way or another on him.

You've swayed me. Good argument my friend.

And by that, neither do you.

Which is where your argument falls apart like a crap souffle in an oven.

electricberet said:

Since Prince has decided to exercise control over his former side projects so many years later, I hope he's planning to give us remastered versions of those albums, at least on vinyl.

Of course he isn't, nothing could be further from his intentions.

funksterr said:

XxAxX said:

the only thing i can think of that exonerates his actions in this regard is that using the name The Family could generate what's called brand confusion in trademark law.

in order to protect a trademark, the owner of the mark has to literally put peolpe on notice in writing that their chosen mark infringes on the old mark.

it just has to be done to preserve the legal boundaries involved in trademarks.

that's all if got. if it's not that, prince should just chill

I was thinking this as well. I don't think it exonerates Prince though. A reunited Family will undoubtedly increase interest in the original album which ought to result in more money for Prince.

i agree. but, the thing is, it isn't really prince doing this. it is his attorneys. he probably has a legal team doing this stuff without his explicit knowledge of their actions.

trademark law involves an attorney or paralegal checking the roster of newly registered trademarks every single day for a competing or infringing trademark. when such a new mark is found, the owner of the old mark MUST send such notices, or lose claim to and protection for, their own mark.

[Edited 5/21/11 4:42am]

XxAxX said:

he probably has a legal team doing this stuff without his explicit knowledge of their actions.

Come off it!....

XxAxX said:

funksterr said:

I was thinking this as well. I don't think it exonerates Prince though. A reunited Family will undoubtedly increase interest in the original album which ought to result in more money for Prince.

i agree. but, the thing is, it isn't really prince doing this. it is his attorneys. he probably has a legal team doing this stuff without his explicit knowledge of their actions.

trademark law involves an attorney or paralegal checking the roster of newly registered trademarks every single day for a competing or infringing trademark. when such a new mark is found, the owner of the old mark MUST send such notices, or lose claim to and protection for, their own mark.

[Edited 5/21/11 4:42am]

It seems a bit of a stretch to imagine that for the last 2 years Prince's attorney took legal actions against his former fiance and employees without ever notifying Prince about it. This all over a trademark Prince doesn't control and an out of print product that hasn't been on store shelves for over two decades that is still the property of Warner Brothers (Prince won't have rights to The Family masters for another 9 years or so). I doubt his lawyer would risk his law license like that.

NouveauDance said:

XxAxX said:

he probably has a legal team doing this stuff without his explicit knowledge of their actions.

Come off it!....

XxAxX, keep in mind, he also would call W&L and threaten them before they got their attorney letters. So, sadly, this is him.

I wonder if all the artist could unite and file a class action lawsuit for harrasment.

XxAxX said:

funksterr said:

I was thinking this as well. I don't think it exonerates Prince though. A reunited Family will undoubtedly increase interest in the original album which ought to result in more money for Prince.

i agree. but, the thing is, it isn't really prince doing this. it is his attorneys. he probably has a legal team doing this stuff without his explicit knowledge of their actions.

trademark law involves an attorney or paralegal checking the roster of newly registered trademarks every single day for a competing or infringing trademark. when such a new mark is found, the owner of the old mark MUST send such notices, or lose claim to and protection for, their own mark.

Sheila E. and her family just released an album under the name "The E Family." Given her close association with Prince, and the fact that the CD is being sold at his shows, wouldn't that significantly undermine that claim?

Xibalba said:

Zannaloaf said:

Wow. You are clueless.

[insert rant here]

You have no idea what transpired at the outset.

And by that, neither do you.

Which is where your argument falls apart like a crap souffle in an oven.

I am not arguing what did or did not spark any of this. I am arguing that Prince does not own the trademark. That is a simple FACT. SO how does that make my argument fall apart? Care to answer- or did you just need to act clever and get in a dig rather than contributing something useful?

Zannaloaf said:

Xibalba said:

And by that, neither do you.

Which is where your argument falls apart like a crap souffle in an oven.

I am not arguing what did or did not spark any of this. I am arguing that Prince does not own the trademark. That is a simple FACT. SO how does that make my argument fall apart? Care to answer- or did you just need to act clever and get in a dig rather than contributing something useful?

Nice try, no cigar.

My point (seen as you overlooked it the first time) is that in light of your condescending tone towards Militant, YOU do not know what transpired either. Therefore, it's pretty arrogant to wade on in as if you do know when you blatantly know as much as we do. Which is jack shit.

Thanks, Xibalba.

Zannaloaf, since you want to play the game of industry experience by stating that you "worked for WEA back in the day", I'll simply let you know right now that I've been in and around the industry my entire life, have plenty of experience with indies and majors, been signed as an artist to both Sony/BMG and EMI, have plenty of personal insight to music copyright law and trademarks (indie label we worked with back in the day illegally licensed our music under different names, we had a 2 year court case against them which we won), and I'm perfectly aware of the creativity of various people along the chain, but that's completely irrelevant..........surely you aren't suggesting there is any HIGHER level of creative involvement than writing, composing and producing the songs?

For all intents and purposes - "The Family" is a Prince album that he released under a different name and had a couple of good looking folks sing lead. That doesn't take anything away from the talents of the people involved, but that is the TRUTH.

Same with the first two Time albums. Jam & Lewis are two of the most talented cats on the planet, but "The Time" and "What Time Is It" are Prince albums that he chose to release under the facade of it being a band, with his friends singing lead vocals and performing the songs live as his opening act. Simply because he had more music than he could release himself and that wasn't necessarily suitable for his own vision of his albums.

Again, that's the cold hard truth of the matter.

And since you don't seem to know how a vanity label works - Warners gave Prince specific budgets in which to run his record label. He chose where and on what that money was spent on. So yes - he funded it. Could have put all that money straight into his own pocket if he wanted to, and not spent a dime on organising photo and video shoots, marketing, etc.

You know what? Prince could go out on to the street outside Paisley Park right now, find 5 random kids, have one of them sing some lead vocals on a bunch of songs he has, and tomorrow release that album under the name "The Family". He'd be perfectly entitled to do that. It's his prerogative. And that's essentially what he did the first time anyway Just instead of random kids, it was his girlfriend (Susannah), a good looking singer who he felt was marketable (Paul) and some of his friends that didn't have a project because the previous one they were in had broken up (Jerome and Bean).

Fdeluxe are not ENTITLED in any way to use branding or association of Prince's work. Sorry. They just aren't. So again, whether your personal opinion is that he should let them use it or not.... what you have to accept is that it IS his call to make. Period.

If they existed as a unit prior to what Prince did.... and if they had written and released songs prior to that.....and if they had come up with that name beforehand and been signed to a record label or had any kind of following/fame.... it would be a completely different story. But they didn't.

Furthermore, it seems kind of strange to me that after KNOWING they weren't going to be able to use the name, they just thought "Oh well we'll just call the band something else and call the album The Family instead"....... like some sort of sly backdoor method to achieve the exact same thing they wanted and were denied in the first place.

So now the band is Fdeluxe and the album is Gaslight.... so it's all good. I look forward to it. Why didn't they just do that from jump and avoid all this drama in the first place? Do they feel that they are now at some sort of disadvantage? And if that's the case, then it logically follows that the "The Family" branding has some value and therefore Prince is right to protect his intellectual property (ie, the branding which he created).

Militant said:

Thanks, Xibalba.

Zannaloaf, since you want to play the game of industry experience by stating that you "worked for WEA back in the day", I'll simply let you know right now that I've been in and around the industry my entire life, have plenty of experience with indies and majors, been signed as an artist to both Sony/BMG and EMI, have plenty of personal insight to music copyright law and trademarks (indie label we worked with back in the day illegally licensed our music under different names, we had a 2 year court case against them which we won), and I'm perfectly aware of the creativity of various people along the chain, but that's completely irrelevant..........surely you aren't suggesting there is any HIGHER level of creative involvement than writing, composing and producing the songs?

For all intents and purposes - "The Family" is a Prince album that he released under a different name and had a couple of good looking folks sing lead. That doesn't take anything away from the talents of the people involved, but that is the TRUTH.

Same with the first two Time albums. Jam & Lewis are two of the most talented cats on the planet, but "The Time" and "What Time Is It" are Prince albums that he chose to release under the facade of it being a band, with his friends singing lead vocals and performing the songs live as his opening act. Simply because he had more music than he could release himself and that wasn't necessarily suitable for his own vision of his albums.

Again, that's the cold hard truth of the matter.

And since you don't seem to know how a vanity label works - Warners gave Prince specific budgets in which to run his record label. He chose where and on what that money was spent on. So yes - he funded it. Could have put all that money straight into his own pocket if he wanted to, and not spent a dime on organising photo and video shoots, marketing, etc.

You know what? Prince could go out on to the street outside Paisley Park right now, find 5 random kids, have one of them sing some lead vocals on a bunch of songs he has, and tomorrow release that album under the name "The Family". He'd be perfectly entitled to do that. It's his prerogative. And that's essentially what he did the first time anyway Just instead of random kids, it was his girlfriend (Susannah), a good looking singer who he felt was marketable (Paul) and some of his friends that didn't have a project because the previous one they were in had broken up (Jerome and Bean).

Fdeluxe are not ENTITLED in any way to use branding or association of Prince's work. Sorry. They just aren't. So again, whether your personal opinion is that he should let them use it or not.... what you have to accept is that it IS his call to make. Period.

If they existed as a unit prior to what Prince did.... and if they had written and released songs prior to that.....and if they had come up with that name beforehand and been signed to a record label or had any kind of following/fame.... it would be a completely different story. But they didn't.

Furthermore, it seems kind of strange to me that after KNOWING they weren't going to be able to use the name, they just thought "Oh well we'll just call the band something else and call the album The Family instead"....... like some sort of sly backdoor method to achieve the exact same thing they wanted and were denied in the first place.

So now the band is Fdeluxe and the album is Gaslight.... so it's all good. I look forward to it. Why didn't they just do that from jump and avoid all this drama in the first place? Do they feel that they are now at some sort of disadvantage? And if that's the case, then it logically follows that the "The Family" branding has some value and therefore Prince is right to protect his intellectual property (ie, the branding which he created).

You comment as if "goodwill" isn't a commodity that can be traded from business to business. The bottom line is, regardless if Prince has the legal right to do what he did, what's the decent thing to do?

Aren't you in a band? Don't you consider your "fans" in how you conduct your business?

sosgemini said:

You comment as if "goodwill" isn't a commodity that can be traded from business to business. The bottom line is, regardless if Prince has the legal right to do what he did, what's the decent thing to do?

Aren't you in a band? Don't you consider your "fans" in how you conduct your business?

"Decent" is subjective. It's a vague statement with too many variables unless you know all the ins and outs of the entire situation. Which only the parties involved really do. Prince has the right to be protective of something he created, surely? I don't think it's fair to begrudge him for keeping a tight grip on business. (Not saying he always does, but it seems to be the case here.) You know, business is business. Prince isn't a charity or in the business of just giving away whatever to whoever. This is the music business. Neil, FDeluxe's manager is doing the exact same thing. Trying to take care of business and do what's right for his clients. Prince is taking care of business and doing what he feels is right for him. That's led to a dispute, of which one party being right and the other wrong is not a solid fact.

Yes I am - and yes, of course I do. What do you mean by that? Are you referring to Prince's fans or Fdeluxe's? I'm not sure what you're getting at. I love and appreciate my fans, and I go out of my way to take care of them where I can, just recently I sent out a bunch of our merchandise (which we usually sell, obviously) to a number of our most supportive fans all over the world, for free. I've spent my own performance fees before buying back tickets to my own shows from scalpers, not just to sell them back to fans at the door price, but given them to them for free and brought them backstage because they weren't able to get tickets. So clearly yes I do consider them, very much so, but I can't do things like that all the time or I would not make a living.

If I worked very hard on something, gave people a shot, signed them to a record label, put money into their project, developed their entire project, wrote all the songs.....then they split up, and later on got back together without my involvement, without my permission to build something for themselves on top of all the effort I'd put in - I am sure that I would be upset. Wouldn't you?

Militant said:

sosgemini said:

You comment as if "goodwill" isn't a commodity that can be traded from business to business. The bottom line is, regardless if Prince has the legal right to do what he did, what's the decent thing to do?

Aren't you in a band? Don't you consider your "fans" in how you conduct your business?

"Decent" is subjective. It's a vague statement with too many variables unless you know all the ins and outs of the entire situation. Which only the parties involved really do. Prince has the right to be protective of something he created, surely? I don't think it's fair to begrudge him for keeping a tight grip on business. (Not saying he always does, but it seems to be the case here.) You know, business is business. Prince isn't a charity or in the business of just giving away whatever to whoever. This is the music business. Neil, FDeluxe's manager is doing the exact same thing. Trying to take care of business and do what's right for his clients. Prince is taking care of business and doing what he feels is right for him. That's led to a dispute, of which one party being right and the other wrong is not a solid fact.

Yes I am - and yes, of course I do. What do you mean by that? Are you referring to Prince's fans or Fdeluxe's? I'm not sure what you're getting at. I love and appreciate my fans, and I go out of my way to take care of them where I can, just recently I sent out a bunch of our merchandise (which we usually sell, obviously) to a number of our most supportive fans all over the world, for free. I've spent my own performance fees before buying back tickets to my own shows from scalpers, not just to sell them back to fans at the door price, but given them to them for free and brought them backstage because they weren't able to get tickets. So clearly yes I do consider them, very much so, but I can't do things like that all the time or I would not make a living.

If I worked very hard on something, gave people a shot, signed them to a record label, put money into their project, developed their entire project, wrote all the songs.....then they split up, and later on got back together without my involvement, without my permission to build something for themselves on top of all the effort I'd put in - I am sure that I would be upset. Wouldn't you?

Again, goodwill is a commodity that has an actual market value. With Prince making "ZERO" off of his decades long ass project, what value is he earning off that hard work by denying his previous employees the opportunity to associate themselves with their own history? Yet, by denying them, just as he is doing with The Time, how much goodwill and cash is it costing him?

The outrage generated from this is the second largest flair up that I have seen since since coming to his site. The dude already can't sell albums and has now put his tour/live show business in jeopardy to protect what? A brand that he is no longer financially capatalizing on? And you are gonna type lengthy dissertations defending him based on smart business sense? Get out of town.

sosgemini said:

Militant said:

"Decent" is subjective. It's a vague statement with too many variables unless you know all the ins and outs of the entire situation. Which only the parties involved really do. Prince has the right to be protective of something he created, surely? I don't think it's fair to begrudge him for keeping a tight grip on business. (Not saying he always does, but it seems to be the case here.) You know, business is business. Prince isn't a charity or in the business of just giving away whatever to whoever. This is the music business. Neil, FDeluxe's manager is doing the exact same thing. Trying to take care of business and do what's right for his clients. Prince is taking care of business and doing what he feels is right for him. That's led to a dispute, of which one party being right and the other wrong is not a solid fact.

Yes I am - and yes, of course I do. What do you mean by that? Are you referring to Prince's fans or Fdeluxe's? I'm not sure what you're getting at. I love and appreciate my fans, and I go out of my way to take care of them where I can, just recently I sent out a bunch of our merchandise (which we usually sell, obviously) to a number of our most supportive fans all over the world, for free. I've spent my own performance fees before buying back tickets to my own shows from scalpers, not just to sell them back to fans at the door price, but given them to them for free and brought them backstage because they weren't able to get tickets. So clearly yes I do consider them, very much so, but I can't do things like that all the time or I would not make a living.

If I worked very hard on something, gave people a shot, signed them to a record label, put money into their project, developed their entire project, wrote all the songs.....then they split up, and later on got back together without my involvement, without my permission to build something for themselves on top of all the effort I'd put in - I am sure that I would be upset. Wouldn't you?

Again, goodwill is a commodity that has an actual market value. With Prince making "ZERO" off of his decades long ass project, what value is he earning off that hard work by denying his previous employees the opportunity to associate themselves with their own history? Yet, by denying them, just as he is doing with The Time, how much goodwill and cash is it costing him?

The outrage generated from this is the second largest flair up that I have seen since since coming to his site. The dude already can't sell albums and has now put his tour/live show business in jeopardy to protect what? A brand that he is no longer financially capatalizing on? And you are gonna type lengthy dissertations defending him based on smart business sense? Get out of town.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL. this is preposterous. silly.

prince can do what he wants because ....it's his stuff. he doesn thave to do anything with it at all.

[Edited 5/21/11 23:28pm]