Stymie said:

RodeoSchro said:

No, I orgnoted you about how certain posters had contaminated P&R.

But even at that, calling for P&R to be closed is nothing more than acting like a baby. Someone wants it moderated more effectively? OK, fine. But asking for a forum to be closed, and thus unavailable to everyone who ISN'T complaining, just because that person doesn't like the current level of moderation?

That's childish, and there is no other way to put it.

i totally disagree with you Greg. And I totally agree with babynoz. I'll tell you why later. I hate typing on iPad.

No sweat. I respect both you and cborg, and your opinions, even if I disagree with them.

RodeoSchro said:

cborgman said:

way to misunderstand a request for much needed moderation

werent you just orgnoting me yesterday about how terrible p&r has become?

No, I orgnoted you about how certain posters had contaminated P&R.

But even at that, calling for P&R to be closed is nothing more than acting like a baby. Someone wants it moderated more effectively? OK, fine. But asking for a forum to be closed, and thus unavailable to everyone who ISN'T complaining, just because that person doesn't like the current level of moderation?

That's childish, and there is no other way to put it.

Here's something else you can orgnote. My suggestion isn't to your liking....imagine my shock? Typical of you to once again misrepresent what is being said and overlook what you don't want to see and there is no other way to put it.

Did you miss the part where it was stated that there have been other forums closed on this site by requests of other members in the past as well as requests for forums to be merged? Were they childish too or is that just directed at me?

cborgman said:

Pokeno4Money said:

What makes you think I'm not calm, the wink emoticon or the lol emoticon?

I'm just giving my opinion too. In my opinion, publicly demanding that a forum be shut down because less than a handful of members don't like the way it's being moderated ... is wrong.

Based on this message pinned at the top of P&R, it sounds like the forum wasn't exactly perfect 5 years ago either.

http://prince.org/msg/105/322014

Did you demand it be shut down back then too? Somehow it survived 5 more years.

Respect to the mods and members who have done what they can to improve P&R rather than wanting to burn the ... err, shut down the forum.

yea, those rules were put into place to make it better. and they did.

for instance... the "provide commentary" rule was put into place because a few orgers had a terrible habit of posting very incidienary videos and articles. they would put them up just to rile people up. if it got bad enough that he started to look like an awful person for posting it, he would then say he didnt agree with it, he just thought someone should mention it.

however, that message and those rules are no longer enforced, which has made much worse than it was back then.

[Edited 12/23/14 12:42pm]

Okay so shouldn't everyone do their part to enforce those rules by a) Reporting posts like that and b) Ignoring posts like that? Isn't that a better alternative to just shutting down the entire forum?

As far as I can tell, everyone I've seen posting in P&R are all intelligent, good people. The topics being discussed - mostly centered around racial issues, sometimes politics, sometimes religion - will always result in heated discussions because we all have strong opinions about each subject. I think it's really unrealistic to expect everyone to constantly gather together singing Kumbaya, unless certain people get their way by making it a forum where only those who agree with them are allowed to participate - but what good is that? How could a forum with everyone always agreeing with each other be constructive, thought provoking or educational?

Gonna keep my promise of not quoting.

Yes, it absolutely is disrespectful to post a public demand to shut down an entire forum because you feel that it isn't being moderated to your liking. I know some people here have issues with all types of authority figures, but mods are no different than cops - each one deserves our respect unless they give us reason to withdraw that respect. They are volunteering their time for everyone's enjoyment, it's not like they are government workers getting paid with our taxpayer dollars. If you have a problem with certain messages, report them. If you have a problem with certain members, report them. After that if you still don't get satisfaction, discuss it with a mod or mods privately. Posting a public demand to shut down an entire forum is NOT the proper way to express your unhappiness.

Now you're trying to say all this was just a suggestion? For real?

"The P&R Forum Needs to Close" is a statement, it's a demand. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Suggestions are cool.
Requests are cool.
Demands? Not cool.


A suggestion would be phrased as "I think the P&R Forum Should Close" or "I Believe the P&R Forum Should Close" or "Maybe the P&R Forum Should Close?" or "Does Anybody Else Think the P&R Forum Should Close?". There's about 20 different ways that it COULD have been worded as a suggestion, but it wasn't.

And the OP closed with "until someone else is able to commit the same amount of time, it should be shut down." Again that's a clear demand, there's no suggestion there whatsoever. You're not the one that runs this joint, you shouldn't be making public demands like that.

Continuing to post there indicates that the intention is not to have it closed permanently? What does that even mean? If you have a problem with it NOW, why are you still posting there NOW? And what's your end game? What's your goal? To have one or more current mods sacrifice even more of their personal lives just to accomodate your demands? Or is it to force the "hiring" of new mods? Either way, please explain to all of us why you think that CAN'T be accomplished while the forum remains open. Please explain to all of us why you believe closing the forum "temporarily" is the only way to bring in new mods or extend the hours of existing ones.

I'm sorry, but none of what you're saying makes any sense. Even if an increased mod presence really is necessary, temporarily shutting down the forum is absolutely NOT necessary to accomplish that goal.

And please allow me to shed some light for you:

1) You can call it "spouting" if you want, but every Orger has a right to give their opinion as long as it's done respectfully.

2) You can use "Org History" to form opinions of longtime members if you want, but history has nothing to do with what's happening in 20FOURTEEN. The issues that were going on in P&R five or ten years ago have no bearing or relevance to today's forum, especially with so many active members from back then either now long gone or changed as they got older. If you want to live in the past then I suggest buying a 1984 DeLorean.

3) In the real world whenever a company or organization wants to conduct a review and analysis of their operations, there's a reason why they typically bring in an outside company. It's because that outside company is better able to form a clear, accurate picture of what they observe because they don't have biases based on history, personal relationships or prior conflicts. So in other words, newer members such as myself form their opinions of P&R based purely on WHAT is being posted rather than WHO is doing the posting ... and that's exactly the kind of approach that everyone should take. Focus on the content, not the person who posted the content.

It´s just a fucking internet discussion forum. As far as I´m concerned, there needs to be LESS moderating and censorship and banning on Prince.org, not more.

I´d rather enjoy reading a 20plus thread on D´Angelo´s album in Music N More or a 25 plus pages thread in Politics N Religion than a tame, censored , locked or deleted thread of 5 pages.

We´re all grown folks here, and there are far worse forums out there, and apart from maybe two or three orgers I don´t have a problem with orgers who occasionally troll, have a different opinion or go off topic.

I saw that thread and while I did not agree with the guy who went off topic and found him a bit too harsh and unfair towards Toejam and Ian, I still don´t think that the thread should´ve been deleted , nor do I think a ban would´ve been justified.

This is all a bit silly.

babynoz said:

RodeoSchro said:

No, I orgnoted you about how certain posters had contaminated P&R.

But even at that, calling for P&R to be closed is nothing more than acting like a baby. Someone wants it moderated more effectively? OK, fine. But asking for a forum to be closed, and thus unavailable to everyone who ISN'T complaining, just because that person doesn't like the current level of moderation?

That's childish, and there is no other way to put it.

Here's something else you can orgnote. My suggestion isn't to your liking....imagine my shock? Typical of you to once again misrepresent what is being said and overlook what you don't want to see and there is no other way to put it.

Did you miss the part where it was stated that there have been other forums closed on this site by requests of other members in the past as well as requests for forums to be merged? Were they childish too or is that just directed at me?

Who cares about other forums? What the Sam Hill does that have to do with your immature position that just because YOU don't like the way P&R is moderated, then NO ONE should be able to post in it?

You're acting childish. I understand your frustration. I imagine everyone that posts in P&R is frustrated ove one thing or another.

But your request is selfish. Nothing more, nothing less.

BTW, I'm not the one that publicized a private orgnote. cborgman I love you, but that was wrong.

babynoz said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

She is suggesting 'the P&R Forum Needs to Close'

until someone else is able to commit the same amount of time, it should be shut down.

Well, not necessarily someone else and just temporarily until you or whomever actually has the time. If you told me you would rather shoot yourself in the foot I would understand. People have burned out working that forum.

For example if you were going to mod P&R it's all well and good but I don't think that we should reasonably expect you to do that and Music and More, aaaand Music, non Prince, etc. I would argue that all three of those require heavy moderation, espcially P&R.

From time to time some of us chime in with a suggestion when we notice things...that's all this is.

actually those other forums all together do not equate or equal the heavy moderation needs of the P & R forum.

The other forums take no time at all.

And I'm not challenging or having issue with you making a thread of this discussion.

babynoz said:

cborgman said:

yea, those rules were put into place to make it better. and they did.

for instance... the "provide commentary" rule was put into place because a few orgers had a terrible habit of posting very incidienary videos and articles. they would put them up just to rile people up. if it got bad enough that he started to look like an awful person for posting it, he would then say he didnt agree with it, he just thought someone should mention it.

however, that message and those rules are no longer enforced, which has made much worse than it was back then.

[Edited 12/23/14 12:42pm]

We were cautioned not only to provide commentary but made to stay on topic too.

Remember years ago every mod that was listed was active? Bananacologne, Anx, Sevennynine, Tom...the whole crew? Now less than half of those listed have been heard from for years.

It took that many people to mind the store back then and it still does. Hell, they may need to close a couple more forums in addition to the one I suggested. For example, I have seen suggestions to close the Org Artists forum as well as suggestions to merge some forums with others.

It's sillly to try to pretend that this is some kind of unique idea in org history and as you suggested, people should know their org history before spouting off.

But the suggestion to close a forum like Org Artists isn't because of all the craziness or need for moderation. Many other forums don't generate the attention this forum Prince M&M and NPrince Music generate

This is the only forum that gets regular intense requests for moderation on a regular basis. Not Prince M&M not NonPrinceMusic

And I have no issue one way or another with this threads request.

OldFriends4Sale said:

babynoz said:

Well, not necessarily someone else and just temporarily until you or whomever actually has the time. If you told me you would rather shoot yourself in the foot I would understand. People have burned out working that forum.

For example if you were going to mod P&R it's all well and good but I don't think that we should reasonably expect you to do that and Music and More, aaaand Music, non Prince, etc. I would argue that all three of those require heavy moderation, espcially P&R.

From time to time some of us chime in with a suggestion when we notice things...that's all this is.

actually those other forums all together do not equate or equal the heavy moderation needs of the P & R forum.

The other forums take no time at all.

And I'm not challenging or having issue with you making a thread of this discussion.

Actually that bit of info helps the discussion a lot. Given the nature of P&R I don't doubt it. I appreciate your input and clarification.

Okay we're having good dialogue which is cool, so where are we at with this?

Is Ben and/or the mods waiting to see if anybody else wants the P&R forum closed before making a decision?

Am I gonna wake up one day and discover the entire P&R forum and everything posted in it is gone?

RodeoSchro said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

You know ........... if everyone would just follow the "rules" and the forum rules of p&r, it might be a more enjoyable experience.

I'm all for booting the trolls and bringing the hammer down on enforcing the p&r rules.

p&r is a more heavier intense forum to moderate. There are more complaints coming out of there than any other forum on the org.

luv4u said:

I'm all for booting the trolls and bringing the hammer down on enforcing the p&r rules.

cool

but please make up your own mind about this whole "trolls" and "bullies" bullshit

don't be sucked into the drivel that is going on at the moment... where a few members resort to calling people those names whenever someone doesn't agree with them 100%

when the same people (one in particular) spends more time taking threads off topic than anyone else on the forum with their constant discussion about other people on the forum... instead of actually sticking to the point of what's being discussed... troll this... bully that... give me a break

the most recent one even complained because people were arguing with women

it's beyond a joke at this point

i'm not saying people don't say ignorant things... i don't know what every person's motivation is for what they post... nobody does... but some people on the p&R forum are quick to state those assumptions, without actually having a damn clue about the people they're talking about

i'll argue with anyone... i don't give a shit... i don't have a "side" ... but this whole calling people trolls and bullies thing is pathetic... if you don't possess the intellect to actually argue a point, you probably don't belong posting in a forum on politics and religion

I know the word "troll" is constantly used throughout the internet, but I agree it's ridiculous how people are so quick to pull it out and label someone as such just because of a differing viewpoint.

My personal policy, don't use any words you wouldn't use in the real world and don't write something on an internet forum that you wouldn't say to someone's face in the real world. Thankfully I've never heard the word "troll" in a business meeting when one person disagrees with everyone else.

But when someone is new to a forum or returns after a long time, and they are immediately told they will be ignored forever simply because of their opinion, that absolutely is a form of bullying. And I can attest that goes on in P&R.

if everyone would just follow the "rules" and the forum rules of p&r, it might be a more enjoyable experience.

It most definetely would be, except for those who enjoy not following the rules.

There was a time that P&R was (much) more enjoyable and there have been other bad times.

But this time the problem seems more systemic to me.

It looks like the forum today is basically only used to post in by a select group of orgers.

Others may still read it, but not that many people post anymore.

This 'dries up' the discussion climate so to speak and that already gives more room for rogue individuals ('trolls') and cliques to evolve.

This problem gets bigger when you consider that the forum is very American centered.

Whereas the entire org population is worldwide.

This causes other nationalities to shy away from the forum.

There are a few Americans interested in other issues, but they are only a few and they don't raise the issues themselves.

This has always been an issue, and it's understandable of course when the majority of posters are American and especially these days with so many issues in the US. But it has gott en worse and thus it excludes pretty much everything else.

Then when you look at the religion part, it is even worse. There used to be discussions on religion going in all sorts of directions, with all sorts of people.

But since several years, it's like there is only 3, maybe 4 people (ironically 2 non-Americans!) who still talk about religion in P&R and it's always the same people, the same religious issues and the same personal issues leading those threads to nowehere but perpetual pissing matches.

They always talk ad nauseum about Jesus and Christianity, only to act contrary and cannot even be bothered to make a proper Christmas thread.

A real shame, especially on those who make it this way, but don't see what they are doing to the forum with it.

The same thing is true for trolls and cliques, who bond together in order to flood the forum with constantly the same or shut certain threads down that are not to their liking, whether by derailing it or simply flaming it down untill it locks.

The biggest problem of P&R perhabs is that the most regular posters are the most regular offenders too.

There is a job there for moderation, but since moderators can't watch P&R like babysitters, they can't do much if members don't report violations.

Since most members don't report, or only sometimes, things more or less stay the same, or get worse even.

The solution is therefore not to "close the forum".

That's not even what the OP wants, so I don't understand the suggestion either.

The solution is to all act like grown ups and follow the rules together. For those who can't or won't there is no place. Not saying they should be "banned", because banning doesn't solve the problem of trolls who can't let go.

Collectively ignoring them does tho'.

But that is something most P&R folks are really bad at. Most always take the bait, or tend to bait, derail or flame themselves as well. Most act really childish that way. Even when they don't know it and I am sure most really believe they do not act childish.

Not to mention there have been camps forming, acting as if they are enemies or something, which is not only sad, but also highly telling of the people involved.

That should just stop and Rules should be respected. Perhabs however a thread/post limit could only work with this group of people. Maybe P&R can then finally receive some new blood too, that it badly needs. New people, new ideas, new topics, and new, better ways of discussing things. Because the last couple of years, those who make it are only bleeding it to death.

....

[Edited 12/25/14 13:30pm]

luv4u said:

You know ........... if everyone would just follow the "rules" and the forum rules of p&r, it might be a more enjoyable experience.

I'm all for booting the trolls and bringing the hammer down on enforcing the p&r rules.

p&r is a more heavier intense forum to moderate. There are more complaints coming out of there than any other forum on the org.

You are exactly right Luv. Everyone should simply follow the rules and yet on this very thread are mean spirited, name calling posts in violation of those very same rules. Ironically the same ones who think that P&R should continue with business as usual are some of the same ones who introduced combative language into this discussion too.

I made it a point in the OP not to single out any member or place blame on any moderator for a reason...I think that we can all do better but at this time I don't believe that the mods are the main issue. Instead I think we just need a situation where whomever does P&R really shouldn't have to moderate any other forum and until then it might not be a bad idea to give it a rest.

Those of us who know that this has been discussed before get where I'm coming from and going by the input of yourself and offs, heavier moderation would likely help that forum to function better.


I gotta say though, the more I read in this thread, the more I'm beginning to lean toward Bliss' position.

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,^[1] by posting inflammatory,^[2]extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response^[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.^[4]

Unfortunately there are several regular posters in P&R who frequently do this and could rightfully be called trolls.

Always taking threads off topic

Always starting arguments

regularly posting inflammatory comment

The problem is that they actually enjoy this, because of the rise they can get out of people.

P&R on the other hand is already a forum where people come in with often sensitive issues. And threads can easily go off topic. However it is exactly then that people should act like grown ups.

If somebody is 'going off topic': ignore them. If somebody is 'flaming': report them. If soembody is a repeated offender, shun them.

But if everybody in P&R already feels negative about others, who are not in their little clique, or who have contrary opinions, and can't get over that, then more moderation won't cut it either.

Like Kooleaze said: it's just an internet discussion forum. It is, but also on prince.org with fellow prince fans on usually sensitive topics.

Embrace said:

if everyone would just follow the "rules" and the forum rules of p&r, it might be a more enjoyable experience.

It most definetely would be, except for those who enjoy not following the rules.

There was a time that P&R was (much) more enjoyable and there have been other bad times.

But this time the problem seems more systemic to me.

It looks like the forum today is basically only used to post in by a select group of orgers.

Others may still read it, but not that many people post anymore.

This 'dries up' the discussion climate so to speak and that already gives more room for rogue individuals ('trolls') and cliques to evolve.

This problem gets bigger when you consider that the forum is very American centered.

Whereas the entire org population is worldwide.

This causes other nationalities to shy away from the forum.

There are a few Americans interested in other issues, but they are only a few and they don't raise the issues themselves.

This has always been an issue, and it's understandable of course when the majority of posters are American and especially these days with so many issues in the US. But it has gott en worse and thus it excludes pretty much everything else.

Then when you look at the religion part, it is even worse. There used to be discussions on religion going in all sorts of directions, with all sorts of people.

But since several years, it's like there is only 3, maybe 4 people (ironically 2 non-Americans!) who still talk about religion in P&R and it's always the same people, the same religious issues and the same personal issues leading those threads to nowehere but perpetual pissing matches.

They always talk ad nauseum about Jesus and Christianity, only to act contrary and cannot even be bothered to make a proper Christmas thread.

A real shame, especially on those who make it this way, but don't see what they are doing to the forum with it.

The same thing is true for trolls and cliques, who bond together in order to flood the forum with constantly the same or shut certain threads down that are not to their liking, whether by derailing it or simply flaming it down untill it locks.

The biggest problem of P&R perhabs is that the most regular posters are the most regular offenders too.

There is a job there for moderation, but since moderators can't watch P&R like babysitters, they can't do much if members don't report violations.

Since most members don't report, or only sometimes, things more or less stay the same, or get worse even.

The solution is therefore not to "close the forum".

That's not even what the OP wants, so I don't understand the suggestion either.

The solution is to all act like grown ups and follow the rules together. For those who can't or won't there is no place. Not saying they should be "banned", because banning doesn't solve the problem of trolls who can't let go.

Collectively ignoring them does tho'.

But that is something most P&R folks are really bad at. Most always take the bait, or tend to bait, derail or flame themselves as well. Most act really childish that way. Even when they don't know it and I am sure most really believe they do not act childish.

Not to mention there have been camps forming, acting as if they are enemies or something, which is not only sad, but also highly telling of the people involved.

That should just stop and Rules should be respected. Perhabs however a thread/post limit could only work with this group of people. Maybe P&R can then finally receive some new blood too, that it badly needs. New people, new ideas, new topics, and new, better ways of discussing things. Because the last couple of years, those who make it are only bleeding it to death.

....

[Edited 12/25/14 13:30pm]

Excellent points...thanks a million for your input.

I would only add that as some of us were saying earlier, there was definitely a difference when we had someone who was able to be a stronger presence there. Both Luv and OFFS have stated that they actually do get many reports already, so people are reporting. The thing is that they also have other forums to tend to.

And just to clarify again, I suggested only a temporary closure until we can get the level of moderation needed. Sadly a babysitter, as you put it, looks like the best solution at this point, mainly because members have demonstrated in no uncertain terms that they have no intention of following the rules unless forced to do so .Personallly I haven't seen it this bad for quite some time.

IF people disagree that's fine but IMO a free-for-all isn't productive at all.

I think the observations that you added are very helpful.

RodeoSchro said:

BTW, I'm not the one that publicized a private orgnote. cborgman I love you, but that was wrong.

I completely understand why he referred to the orgnote and he is well within the rules to mention it as long as he doesn't post the actual text of it.

So certain people feel certain other people should be banned for trolling - that's what the real grievance is here? So we could have easily avoided all this noise about closing the joint down?

Personally I don't pay attention to who does what, so if there are legit trolls in P&R I have no idea who they might be. The above definition of trolling IMO is way too vague. I mean seriously, we're talking about mostly racial issues, politics and religion ... emotional responses are gonna happen with our without provocation. I don't doubt there's a fair amount of offtopic discussion, intentional or not, but I've managed to get by it without being offended. Yes there's some baiting that goes on, and even though reporting posts has never been my thang I will do my part as a contributing member of the community. However I think banning members should be strictly up to the mods, if they feel someone is not worthy of a ban then we the members should respect that decision.

We're all adults here, we all are capable of keeping each other in check by reporting and/or ignoring. Sometimes all it takes is a respectful request directed to the other person, either publicly or via orgnote. Just the other day I saw one member tell another member "Hey please don't go offtopic in my thread" and it ended right there. It was a perfect way to handle it, especially because I think the recipient didn't even realize they went offtopic.

However we also don't want to inundate the mods with a ton of frivolous reports. People shouldn't use the Report feature as a way to censor people they don't like or don't agree with. Perfect example is a few posts up somebody claimed there was namecalling in this thread. I've read every message in this thread, and I re-read every one of them just now ... ain't nobody called nobody a name in this thread, unless the post was removed very quickly by a mod before I had a chance to see it.

Embrace made a lot of great points, and one of them was about the negativity in P&R. Dead on. I don't go to P&R to read ten threads in a row about how evil all white cops are, and I don't go there to read members accusing other members of misconduct. Let's bring some Positivity to the forum ... let's post more inspirational stories, let's be kinder and more supportive of fellow members, and most of all let's bring more LUST.

Edited - Didn't mean to quote anybody as my response wasn't directed at anybody in particular

[Edited 12/25/14 15:22pm]

MoBettaBliss said:

luv4u said:

I'm all for booting the trolls and bringing the hammer down on enforcing the p&r rules.

cool

but please make up your own mind about this whole "trolls" and "bullies" bullshit

don't be sucked into the drivel that is going on at the moment... where a few members resort to calling people those names whenever someone doesn't agree with them 100%

when the same people (one in particular) spends more time taking threads off topic than anyone else on the forum with their constant discussion about other people on the forum... instead of actually sticking to the point of what's being discussed... troll this... bully that... give me a break

the most recent one even complained because people were arguing with women

it's beyond a joke at this point

i'm not saying people don't say ignorant things... i don't know what every person's motivation is for what they post... nobody does... but some people on the p&R forum are quick to state those assumptions, without actually having a damn clue about the people they're talking about

i'll argue with anyone... i don't give a shit... i don't have a "side" ... but this whole calling people trolls and bullies thing is pathetic... if you don't possess the intellect to actually argue a point, you probably don't belong posting in a forum on politics and religion

Oh I know who the actual trolls are ............... and I don't get sucked in by anyone who reports anyone as a "troll" or name calls anyone a troll. I know two people that when they report stuff, everyone they report is a troll.

luv4u said:

Embrace said:

cborgman said:

Embrace said:

Unfortunately there are several regular posters in P&R who frequently do this and could rightfully be called trolls.

Always taking threads off topic

Always starting arguments

regularly posting inflammatory comment

The problem is that they actually enjoy this, because of the rise they can get out of people.

peole misunderstand the term troll. it comes from fishing. you bait your hook, and then move the baited hook through the water, waiting for the fish to bite. it isnt troll like billy goats gruff.

i doubt many people are unaware what an internet troll is


like i said... i'll argue with anyone... i've argued with treehouse, rodeo, onlyndausa (probably more than anyone )

but everyone has a right to state their opinion in that forum... and it seems to me there are certain members who as soon as you disagree with them, bam, on goes a label

fuck.. that.. shit

the place is a cesspool... and it's getting worse every day... now there's all this grandstanding ... "who do you think you're talking to blah blah blah"

people are acting like 2 year olds

shut that shit down... nothing good has ever come out of that forum on this site...all it does it continue to divide the members here... it's been the same way for the 13 years i've been here on and off...... it's a prince site ffs... leave the politics and religion to other websites

Pokeno4Money said:

I really can't believe this is an actual thread.

Never before have I seen a request to close an entire forum. History being made right here, congrats.

Some of you don't like the way P&R is being monitored & enforced, so it's "Burn This Bitch Down" ... that's the solution, eh?

Some of you no longer enjoy P&R, so you want it shut down so that NOBODY ELSE can enjoy it. If YOU aren't getting your way and having fun, nobody else should be able to do so ... ain't that right?

Well as sort of an independent observer who hasn't been posting there long enough to know anyone's history, I have found P&R to be moderated as well as can be expected. It's free of personal attacks and namecalling, which I think is great. People are allowed to express their opinion as long as they back it up, which is great. I've seen mods encourage positive, constructive dialogue by starting posts and responding to others, which is great.

Perhaps instead of blaming mod enforcement for the current condition of an area such as P&R, members should look in the mirror and ask how it got to be what it is today? Seems to me there's a whole lotta negativity, anger and a bit of a mob mentality going on in there. Sometimes you hafta step back from something to get the true picture, because if you're too close the picture can be a bit blurry.

There's probably thousands of members who visit the org on a regular basis, why do you think there's only seemingly 5 to 10 of them posting regularly in P&R? Perhaps because to the average orger it's not a particularly inviting sight to see 90% of the first page of thread topics all highly critical of white cops? Perhaps because the majority of orgers don't feel comfortable expressing how they feel in P&R because of a justified fear of being bullied by those who disagree?

So rather than shutting this P&R bitch down, how about this:

1) Report threads and messages you find to be offensive or disruptive
2) Ignore members whom you don't like

3) Ignore the whole damn P&R forum if you no longer enjoy it


Personally I think what P&R needs is more LUST.

What is LUST?

Listen to what others have to say

Understand where they are coming from

Support their right to express their opinion, even if it is different from yours

Trust that their differing opinion is not an attack on you, it's just a reflection of them

Exactly.

babynoz said:

Embrace said:

It most definetely would be, except for those who enjoy not following the rules.

There was a time that P&R was (much) more enjoyable and there have been other bad times.

But this time the problem seems more systemic to me.

It looks like the forum today is basically only used to post in by a select group of orgers.

Others may still read it, but not that many people post anymore.

This 'dries up' the discussion climate so to speak and that already gives more room for rogue individuals ('trolls') and cliques to evolve.

This problem gets bigger when you consider that the forum is very American centered.

Whereas the entire org population is worldwide.

This causes other nationalities to shy away from the forum.

There are a few Americans interested in other issues, but they are only a few and they don't raise the issues themselves.

This has always been an issue, and it's understandable of course when the majority of posters are American and especially these days with so many issues in the US. But it has gott en worse and thus it excludes pretty much everything else.

Then when you look at the religion part, it is even worse. There used to be discussions on religion going in all sorts of directions, with all sorts of people.

But since several years, it's like there is only 3, maybe 4 people (ironically 2 non-Americans!) who still talk about religion in P&R and it's always the same people, the same religious issues and the same personal issues leading those threads to nowehere but perpetual pissing matches.

They always talk ad nauseum about Jesus and Christianity, only to act contrary and cannot even be bothered to make a proper Christmas thread.

A real shame, especially on those who make it this way, but don't see what they are doing to the forum with it.

The same thing is true for trolls and cliques, who bond together in order to flood the forum with constantly the same or shut certain threads down that are not to their liking, whether by derailing it or simply flaming it down untill it locks.

The biggest problem of P&R perhabs is that the most regular posters are the most regular offenders too.

There is a job there for moderation, but since moderators can't watch P&R like babysitters, they can't do much if members don't report violations.

Since most members don't report, or only sometimes, things more or less stay the same, or get worse even.

The solution is therefore not to "close the forum".

That's not even what the OP wants, so I don't understand the suggestion either.

The solution is to all act like grown ups and follow the rules together. For those who can't or won't there is no place. Not saying they should be "banned", because banning doesn't solve the problem of trolls who can't let go.

Collectively ignoring them does tho'.

But that is something most P&R folks are really bad at. Most always take the bait, or tend to bait, derail or flame themselves as well. Most act really childish that way. Even when they don't know it and I am sure most really believe they do not act childish.

Not to mention there have been camps forming, acting as if they are enemies or something, which is not only sad, but also highly telling of the people involved.

That should just stop and Rules should be respected. Perhabs however a thread/post limit could only work with this group of people. Maybe P&R can then finally receive some new blood too, that it badly needs. New people, new ideas, new topics, and new, better ways of discussing things. Because the last couple of years, those who make it are only bleeding it to death.

....

[Edited 12/25/14 13:30pm]

Excellent points...thanks a million for your input.

I would only add that as some of us were saying earlier, there was definitely a difference when we had someone who was able to be a stronger presence there. Both Luv and OFFS have stated that they actually do get many reports already, so people are reporting. The thing is that they also have other forums to tend to.

And just to clarify again, I suggested only a temporary closure until we can get the level of moderation needed. Sadly a babysitter, as you put it, looks like the best solution at this point, mainly because members have demonstrated in no uncertain terms that they have no intention of following the rules unless forced to do so .Personallly I haven't seen it this bad for quite some time.

IF people disagree that's fine but IMO a free-for-all isn't productive at all.

I think the observations that you added are very helpful.

You could kill it off, if you really wanted to.

I am glad to be of help and I hope it will contribute to a positive change.

P&R has always been the 'hot potato' and has always survived.

Empress said:

It's full of racism and hatred and it comes from all races. Yes, I said ALL races. Many people posts topics just to incite others. Some days I can't bring myself to read the garbage in that board.

I would support creating a separate forum for racial discussion to keep it out of P&R, because frankly it's quite discouraging to see certain people turn virtually every P&R topic into one about race and that seems to be the source of much of the anger and negativity in P&R.

Pokeno4Money said:

Empress said:

It's full of racism and hatred and it comes from all races. Yes, I said ALL races. Many people posts topics just to incite others. Some days I can't bring myself to read the garbage in that board.

I would support creating a separate forum for racial discussion to keep it out of P&R, because frankly it's quite discouraging to see certain people turn virtually every P&R topic into one about race and that seems to be the source of much of the anger and negativity in P&R.

Just to bait and troll.