Very interesting article. There's a bit I wanted to pick up on from near the end, because I'm interested in (and persuaded by) the idea that identity is 'socially/culturally constructed', to a far larger extent than is usually acknowledged:

It all sounded very much like the Michael I knew at XY, a young man who was fascinated by queer theory — namely, the idea that sexual and gender identities are culturally constructed rather than biologically fixed — and who dreamed of a world without labels like “straight” and “gay,” which he deemed restrictive and designed to “segment and persecute,” as he argued in a 1998 issue of XY. Though he conceded back then that it was important “to stay unified under a ‘Gay’ political umbrella” until equality for gays and lesbians had been achieved, Michael preferred to label himself queer.

As Ben and I reminisced, I couldn’t help wondering if Michael’s new philosophy might, in a strange way, be a logical extension of what he believed back then — that “gay” is a limiting category and that sexual identities can change. Ben nodded. “A radical queer activist and a fundamentalist Christian aren’t always as different as they might seem,” he said, adding that they’re ideologues who can railroad over nuance and claim a monopoly on the truth.

It doesn't sound like a logical extension of queer theory to me at all. Queer theory would be profoundly skeptical of the idea that one would 'find one's true self' and come to see that the rest was all a false performance, as this guy's new Christian persona would have us believe. It's about the idea that all sexual identity, and all identity as a whole, is 'performed' on some level; that, like actors, we're all trying to inhabit roles given to us by a certain societal script. It's about the process by which, as individuals, we're molded into certain forms (i.e. how we con-form), at the level of the mind and even of the body (e.g. how one walks, talks, has sex, etc).

It seems that the guy in question is now trying desperately to claim that he's found this 'true', 'authentic' identity, and that he has no temptation to stray from his 'righteous' path; a claim that I guess most of us would (rightly) be inclined to take with a pinch of salt. But my impression is that people might tend to think that now he's faking it, whereas before he was following his true nature. The interesting question queer theory poses, though, is whether his former, utterly assured gay identity was any more 'true', 'authentic' or 'natural' than any other identity.

It also reads to me like there's a similarity in his attempt to try and totally invest himself in both roles, without any remainder, even though they're so apparently different. But I don't think any of us ever manage to fully immerse ourselves without anything left over, and so we never really achieve that perfect sense of 'completeness' we all crave. (Tbh, I always think that about both religious converts and the subjects of stories about people that were, say, "born as a woman in a man's body, but now happily 'corrected'.") The interesting question is why we imagine that a particular thing (e.g. having a great job, meeting the man of one's dreams, becoming a woman, finding God, etc) will lead us to 'completeness', and not some other thing.

Every person that I've ever met that claims to be "ex-gay" has simply just gone back into the closet except this time, it's a little different than before. When people are originally in the closet, they are usually in denial and not acting upon their desires. However, when someone claims to be "ex-gay", it almost always comes out that they were back in the closet but acting upon their desires and not letting anyone know.

deebee said:

Very interesting article. There's a bit I wanted to pick up on from near the end, because I'm interested in (and persuaded by) the idea that identity is 'socially/culturally constructed', to a far larger extent than is usually acknowledged:

It all sounded very much like the Michael I knew at XY, a young man who was fascinated by queer theory — namely, the idea that sexual and gender identities are culturally constructed rather than biologically fixed — and who dreamed of a world without labels like “straight” and “gay,” which he deemed restrictive and designed to “segment and persecute,” as he argued in a 1998 issue of XY. Though he conceded back then that it was important “to stay unified under a ‘Gay’ political umbrella” until equality for gays and lesbians had been achieved, Michael preferred to label himself queer.

As Ben and I reminisced, I couldn’t help wondering if Michael’s new philosophy might, in a strange way, be a logical extension of what he believed back then — that “gay” is a limiting category and that sexual identities can change. Ben nodded. “A radical queer activist and a fundamentalist Christian aren’t always as different as they might seem,” he said, adding that they’re ideologues who can railroad over nuance and claim a monopoly on the truth.

It doesn't sound like a logical extension of queer theory to me at all. Queer theory would be profoundly skeptical of the idea that one would 'find one's true self' and come to see that the rest was all a false performance, as this guy's new Christian persona would have us believe. It's about the idea that all sexual identity, and all identity as a whole, is 'performed' on some level; that, like actors, we're all trying to inhabit roles given to us by a certain societal script. It's about the process by which, as individuals, we're molded into certain forms (i.e. how we con-form), at the level of the mind and even of the body (e.g. how one walks, talks, has sex, etc).

It seems that the guy in question is now trying desperately to claim that he's found this 'true', 'authentic' identity, and that he has no temptation to stray from his 'righteous' path; a claim that I guess most of us would (rightly) be inclined to take with a pinch of salt. But my impression is that people might tend to think that now he's faking it, whereas before he was following his true nature. The interesting question queer theory poses, though, is whether his former, utterly assured gay identity was any more 'true', 'authentic' or 'natural' than any other identity.

It also reads to me like there's a similarity in his attempt to try and totally invest himself in both roles, without any remainder, even though they're so apparently different. But I don't think any of us ever manage to fully immerse ourselves without anything left over, and so we never really achieve that perfect sense of 'completeness' we all crave. (Tbh, I always think that about both religious converts and the subjects of stories about people that were, say, "born as a woman in a man's body, but now happily 'corrected'.") The interesting question is why we imagine that a particular thing (e.g. having a great job, meeting the man of one's dreams, becoming a woman, finding God, etc) will lead us to 'completeness', and not some other thing.

Beautiful.

[Edited 6/20/11 8:40am]

Efan said:

Timmy84 said:

Sounds like folks who can't think for themselves so they let whoever has an opinion about them affect them to the point where they try to claim they're "cured" or "born again". Just bullshit to cover up whatever demons they're really hiding.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but in the case of THIS guy, I think there's a little bit more to it. However, the fact that he was SO adamant in his beliefs when he was a practicing gay makes me think he was shouting at himself as much as he was shouting at his opposition. Now that he has reversed his stance, I think he is still doing it.

My thinking as well.

Although I wouldn't necessarily think he's been disengenuous at any point in his life (people do earnestly evolve), as deebee suggests, sounds like much of who he is at a given time is markedly "performed" -- and his most crucial audience remains himself.

[Edited 6/20/11 9:08am]

Wait--am I crazy or did you reverse the order of your responses, Lammastide?

Lammastide said:

Efan said:

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but in the case of THIS guy, I think there's a little bit more to it. However, the fact that he was SO adamant in his beliefs when he was a practicing gay makes me think he was shouting at himself as much as he was shouting at his opposition. Now that he has reversed his stance, I think he is still doing it.

My thinking as well.

Although I wouldn't necessarily think he's been disengenuous at any point in his life (people do earnestly evolve), as deebee suggests, sounds like much of who he is at a given time is markedly "performed" -- and his most crucial audience remain himself.

[Edited 6/20/11 8:48am]

That's interesting. I didn't necessarily think "performed." But I think people often exhibit a characteristic we see in children: pushing a boundary as far as they can and practically begging for feedback (or guidelines, boundaries, etc.). For example, I sometimes think the people who espouse the most challenging or radical notions--not people who are on the forefront of innovative thought but instead the ones who are rudest and most obnoxious about their beliefs and the supposed idiocy of the opposition--are the ones with the weakest support for those same beliefs. They are putting forth their harshest arguments in the hopes that someone will come along and say something like, "That's a great question. Here's the answer." If no one does, they may lead themselves to an answer. I wonder if he was always looking for a religious resolution to his life and spoke so adamantly about religion because of it.

Efan said:

Wait--am I crazy or did you reverse the order of your responses, Lammastide?

You're not crazy. Because I referred to deebee's post in my response to you, I wanted first to respond to him.

...I think only I care about such stupid OCD stuff.

Efan said:

Lammastide said:

My thinking as well.

Although I wouldn't necessarily think he's been disengenuous at any point in his life (people do earnestly evolve), as deebee suggests, sounds like much of who he is at a given time is markedly "performed" -- and his most crucial audience remain himself.

[Edited 6/20/11 8:48am]

That's interesting. I didn't necessarily think "performed." But I think people often exhibit a characteristic we see in children: pushing a boundary as far as they can and practically begging for feedback (or guidelines, boundaries, etc.). For example, I sometimes think the people who espouse the most challenging or radical notions--not people who are on the forefront of innovative thought but instead the ones who are rudest and most obnoxious about their beliefs and the supposed idiocy of the opposition--are the ones with the weakest support for those same beliefs. They are putting forth their harshest arguments in the hopes that someone will come along and say something like, "That's a great question. Here's the answer." If no one does, they may lead themselves to an answer. I wonder if he was always looking for a religious resolution to his life and spoke so adamantly about religion because of it.

I suspect you're right.

[Edited 6/20/11 10:14am]

Lammastide said:

Efan said:

Wait--am I crazy or did you reverse the order of your responses, Lammastide?

You're not crazy. Because I referred to deebee's post in my response to you, I wanted first to respond to him.

...I think only I care about such stupid OCD stuff.

You're a crafty one. We must keep an eye on you at all times.

Actually, it was very nice of you and makes perfect sense.

Lammastide said:

Efan said:

Wait--am I crazy or did you reverse the order of your responses, Lammastide?

You're not crazy. Because I referred to deebee's post in my response to you, I wanted first to respond to him.

...I think only I care about such stupid OCD stuff.

I noticed something odd had happened, but couldn't put my finger on it, so I just ignored it as a sort of 'glitch in the Matrix'.

Before I came out, I actively dated women. When I was a teen until early 30's, I kept thinking i would find the right woman who would do it for me and I would be attracted to her. Even though I knew I was gay, I was deeply closeted, due to my religion (I was raised Catholic) and where I grew up (VERY repulican suburb) , so I was in COMPLETE denial and ignorant. Everytime I would begin a relationship, I would think, ok, NOW it will happen...but of course the relationship would die miserably because of one simple reason. I WAS NOT ATTRACTED TO THEM. It would get to the point where she would want the relationship to be physical, but when the moment of truth would happen, I would have to think about a guy to get off. Sex with women was a CHORE. Any excuse NOT to would be used. Also during this time, I was having a lot of anonymous gay sex...not someting I am proud of...how I didn't catch a disease is still beyond me. Things were starting to get REALLY creepy and weird.

So living this way for 15 years, when I approached my early 30's I was a miserable, lonely, angry, and very shelfish person, who was hurting people who didn't deserve to be hurt. By 33 I sort of had an epiphany after becoming friends with a coworker who was also happened to be a gay man. I didn't come out to him or anything, but his friendship made me realize there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. He is a smart, successful, normal guy who has been with his partner for almost 20 years. Knowing him helped me to finally coming to terms with my sexuality in my own head, and realizing this is who I was. I was still miserable, but at least the steps where in place for me to eventually becoming comfortable with myself as a gay man. I stopped trying to date women, and stopped the anonymous sex, and bascially became asexual (besides marathon jerk off sessions . I did this for about 5 years, and things in my life (very) slowly started to become clearer. I was focusing on my work better, I was becoming more financially responsible, and my confidence started to rise...why? Cause I had stopped trying to "act"...I was simply being who I was and thus was (at least in my own head) and able to focus on my life. Let me tell ya folks...it takes A LOT of energy to be that in denial, and act like someone you're not.

While still in the closet, but much more confident with who I am, by the time I was 39, I ended up finally putting a profile on Chemistry, and sure enough met a guy almost immediately. We went out, and while I was nervous at first, each date ended with me wanting to see him again...something that NEVER happened with women. Also, it felt RIGHT. Like birds singing, clouds parting, RIGHT. When we had sex, it was better than I could imagine, and it was like so THIS is what it's supposed to be like. We've been together ever since...I came out by the time I was 40 (hey...better late than never). Family and friends have been great and accepting. It's almost like a new beginning, as I am confident, relaxed, and happy, and it's all because I am living the life I was supposed to lead...also it makes me realize its SO not a big deal...all that time worrying and upset at being gay was wasted time.

Lastly, THE thing to note is because of this LOOONG journey....one thing is I know for absolute-damn sure...being gay is in my DNA. Just as my hair is black, and eyes are blue, I am gay. So yeah, not that big of a deal...just bein me baby!

[Edited 6/20/11 11:42am]

You cannot be gay and be religious. Being gay is not the way god created human beings to be, if that was the case, humans would be extinct.

So well done to him for realising this.

Is this something that's gonna piss me off? I'm not sure if I want to commit yet.

Poplife88 said:

Before I came out, I actively dated women. When I was a teen until early 30's, I kept thinking i would find the right woman who would do it for me and I would be attracted to her. Even though I knew I was gay, I was deeply closeted, due to my religion (I was raised Catholic) and where I grew up (VERY repulican suburb) , so I was in COMPLETE denial and ignorant. Everytime I would begin a relationship, I would think, ok, NOW it will happen...but of course the relationship would die miserably because of one simple reason. I WAS NOT ATTRACTED TO THEM. It would get to the point where she would want the relationship to be physical, but when the moment of truth would happen, I would have to think about a guy to get off. Sex with women was a CHORE. Any excuse NOT to would be used. Also during this time, I was having a lot of anonymous gay sex...not someting I am proud of...how I didn't catch a disease is still beyond me. Things were starting to get REALLY creepy and weird.

So living this way for 15 years, when I approached my early 30's I was a miserable, lonely, angry, and very shelfish person, who was hurting people who didn't deserve to be hurt. By 33 I sort of had an epiphany after becoming friends with a coworker who was also happened to be a gay man. I didn't come out to him or anything, but his friendship made me realize there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. He is a smart, successful, normal guy who has been with his partner for almost 20 years. Knowing him helped me to finally coming to terms with my sexuality in my own head, and realizing this is who I was. I was still miserable, but at least the steps where in place for me to eventually becoming comfortable with myself as a gay man. I stopped trying to date women, and stopped the anonymous sex, and bascially became asexual (besides marathon jerk off sessions . I did this for about 5 years, and things in my life (very) slowly started to become clearer. I was focusing on my work better, I was becoming more financially responsible, and my confidence started to rise...why? Cause I had stopped trying to "act"...I was simply being who I was and thus was (at least in my own head) and able to focus on my life. Let me tell ya folks...it takes A LOT of energy to be that in denial, and act like someone you're not.

While still in the closet, but much more confident with who I am, by the time I was 39, I ended up finally putting a profile on Chemistry, and sure enough met a guy almost immediately. We went out, and while I was nervous at first, each date ended with me wanting to see him again...something that NEVER happened with women. Also, it felt RIGHT. Like birds singing, clouds parting, RIGHT. When we had sex, it was better than I could imagine, and it was like so THIS is what it's supposed to be like. We've been together ever since...I came out by the time I was 40 (hey...better late than never). Family and friends have been great and accepting. It's almost like a new beginning, as I am confident, relaxed, and happy, and it's all because I am living the life I was supposed to lead...also it makes me realize its SO not a big deal...all that time worrying and upset at being gay was wasted time.

Lastly, THE thing to note is because of this LOOONG journey....one thing is I know for absolute-damn sure...being gay is in my DNA. Just as my hair is black, and eyes are blue, I am gay. So yeah, not that big of a deal...just bein me baby!

[Edited 6/20/11 11:42am]

This is an amazing story. Thanks for sharing it!

johnart said:

Is this something that's gonna piss me off? I'm not sure if I want to commit yet.

No, it's actually rather interesting, and it's written by a gay man who's just wondering what happened to the friend he used to know.

If you really want to be pissed off, though, just read the ignorant post that's right above yours.

Pr1nceQuik said:

You cannot be gay and be religious. Being gay is not the way god created human beings to be, if that was the case, humans would be extinct.

So well done to him for realising this.

You know what will make humans extinct sooner than homosexuality ever could?

Dumbassness.

Efan said:

johnart said:

Is this something that's gonna piss me off? I'm not sure if I want to commit yet.

No, it's actually rather interesting, and it's written by a gay man who's just wondering what happened to the friend he used to know.

If you really want to be pissed off, though, just read the ignorant post that's right above yours.

I did.

Pr1nceQuik said:

You cannot be gay and be religious. Being gay is not the way god created human beings to be, if that was the case, humans would be extinct.

So well done to him for realising this.

Yeah, humans would be extinct if everyone was gay but they aren't. God created variety.

johnart said:

Pr1nceQuik said:

You cannot be gay and be religious. Being gay is not the way god created human beings to be, if that was the case, humans would be extinct.

So well done to him for realising this.

You know what will make humans extinct sooner than homosexuality ever could?

Dumbassness.

What I find hilarious is how the person wants to speak about what God wants but has the "Dirty Mind" album in their avatar.

vainandy said:

johnart said:

You know what will make humans extinct sooner than homosexuality ever could?

Dumbassness.

What I find hilarious is how the person wants to speak about what God wants but has the "Dirty Mind" album in their avatar.

I laughed at that too. Irony is funny.

vainandy said:

johnart said:

You know what will make humans extinct sooner than homosexuality ever could?

Dumbassness.

What I find hilarious is how the person wants to speak about what God wants but has the "Dirty Mind" album in their avatar.

You know??

Because often religous folk like to pick and choose what suits them.

vainandy said:

Pr1nceQuik said:

You cannot be gay and be religious. Being gay is not the way god created human beings to be, if that was the case, humans would be extinct.

So well done to him for realising this.

Hmmm... I assume u accept that 'god' created animals & it's well documented that many animals display same-sex sexual behaviour don't u? How do u account 4 that? If 'being gay is not the way god created human beings to be' then he/she also really messed up with all those gay brothers & sisters in the animal kingdom right? Just my two penneth..

[Edited 6/20/11 12:57pm]

[Edited 6/20/11 13:06pm]

vainandy said:

johnart said:

You know what will make humans extinct sooner than homosexuality ever could?

Dumbassness.

What I find hilarious is how the person wants to speak about what God wants but has the "Dirty Mind" album in their avatar.

Prince and Dirty Mind are awesome. i don't have a problem with people being gay.

Just throwing my opinion on this subject, an opinion which I believe to be true.

johnart said:

vainandy said:

What I find hilarious is how the person wants to speak about what God wants but has the "Dirty Mind" album in their avatar.

You know??

Because often religous folk like to pick and choose what suits them.

I'll never forget the time I was eating lunch one Sunday afternoon at the Picadilly Cafeteria. There was a family sitting at the table next to me who were all dressed up and had obviously just left church. The little boy was continuously kicking the table legs from underneath the table while the mother was trying to say grace.

The mother was steadily praying....."Dear Lord, we want to thank you for this food we are about to eat.....[the little boy just a'kickin'].....Lord, we thank you for blessing our family with good health....[kick, kick, kick].....and we thank you for the roof over our head.....[kick, kick, kick].....and we thank.....[kick, kick, kick].....Stop kickin' the DAMN table legs, I'm tryin' to say the FUCKING grace!!!!!"

vainandy said:

johnart said:

You know??

Because often religous folk like to pick and choose what suits them.

I'll never forget the time I was eating lunch one Sunday afternoon at the Picadilly Cafeteria. There was a family sitting at the table next to me who were all dressed up and had obviously just left church. The little boy was continuously kicking the table legs from underneath the table while the mother was trying to say grace.

The mother was steadily praying....."Dear Lord, we want to thank you for this food we are about to eat.....[the little boy just a'kickin'].....Lord, we thank you for blessing our family with good health....[kick, kick, kick].....and we thank you for the roof over our head.....[kick, kick, kick].....and we thank.....[kick, kick, kick].....Stop kickin' the DAMN table legs, I'm tryin' to say the FUCKING grace!!!!!"

vainandy said:

johnart said:

You know what will make humans extinct sooner than homosexuality ever could?

Dumbassness.

What I find hilarious is how the person wants to speak about what God wants but has the "Dirty Mind" album in their avatar.

imago said:

Gay men have eyes that betray all manner of things.

This is lacking in bi men (some bi men), but not in gay men. It's very easy

for me to read them. I can know within about 2 minutes whether there's

the potential for having sex with them or not

HohnerCatcher said:

imago said:

Gay men have eyes that betray all manner of things.

This is lacking in bi men (some bi men), but not in gay men. It's very easy

for me to read them. I can know within about 2 minutes whether there's

the potential for having sex with them or not

Talk about easy to read, "eyes that betray all manner of things" is about the gayest thing I've ever seen anyone put down on paper (computer screen).

Of course gay (at least openly) men are generally easier to read than bi dudes. We don't have time or reason to play coy about getting down to dick-biz.

[Edited 6/21/11 8:19am]

Very sad. For all people involved.

Living a fake life by choice (under religious and societal pressures) and especially living a fake marriage unknowingly, it's both very sad.

Especially that one person decides for another person to let them in the dark. And by doing that, limiting that person to take control of their own life and decide on their own life by themself.

Why would anybody want to put himself through an ordeal like that?

Well he was a well traveled, worldly and grown gay man so this is, IMHO, little to do with religion and much to do with his life experiences. Perhaps something happened to him that made him re-evaluate his choices. His focus seems to be on the presumed emptiness of gay male relations. Maybe he had his heart broken or maybe somebody violated him. He says "God loves you more than any dude will love you." As a believer, I would say this is true no matter one's sex or sexual attraction, but the way he frames it almost seems as if he had been wounded somehow. God help the woman who falls for his ass.