paintedlady said:

Tremolina said:

Are the two of you now saying that all that female emancipation of being equal, being your own man/woman, making your own money, having your own job, is not your cup of tea? All that is what a lot of women still want these days. They want to study, work and be independent, have a succesfull carreer, besides that they also want to be a mother, and go out and have lots have friends, and go on a vacations, and have hobbies AND be your partner/girlfriend/wife....

--

[Edited 10/19/10 9:48am]

All I can say is that, being successful at the workplace didn't make me feel more like a woman.

I felt more womanly when I laughed with my children and had full days with them instead of the rushing back and forth in both worlds. Because honestly I was not happy being un-able to give full focus to either one.

I hated being at work and having my mind on my son, or vice versa. I also had no support at home with the kids when I got home. The kids and all that was home stuff was dumped on me as soon as I walked in the door. It was unfair. I was the main bread winner AND I had to cook and clean too. I was worn out.

I sued and collect child support and stay home and now work when I want to. I am the happiest I've even been because the kids give me a true sense of joy and accomplishment.

That is the truth, I like fancy things, sure.. but they are not as important to me as living a totally stress free life. To have both would be ideal but I would rather be poor and spend my days with my kids anyday than earn what I did and spend virtually no time with my kids.

Many may disagree, but that is MY truth.

Being a full-time caregiver for your children is a wonderfully fulfilling way to spend your time and your life, but that goes for any gender. I absolutely understand why people choose to stay home with their children if they have the means, mother or father.

What I don’t understand is feeling more womanly for doing so, or “less of a woman” for not.

CarrieMpls said:

Being a full-time caregiver for your children is a wonderfully fulfilling way to spend your time and your life, but that goes for any gender. I absolutely understand why people choose to stay home with their children if they have the means, mother or father.

What I don’t understand is feeling more womanly for doing so, or “less of a woman” for not.

I think its the stress factor. Any "me" time we get as women to make ourselves feel whole from within is what makes us feel accomplished.

I hated not having time to pamper myself, or take proper care of me. Exercise, Dr./dental visits, hair salon visits, etc. were shortened or rushed all the time and I felt "ugly"... that was the time I would have killed for a personal assistant or a body double. Heck even time for sex was scheduled and rushed.

paintedlady said:

CarrieMpls said:

Being a full-time caregiver for your children is a wonderfully fulfilling way to spend your time and your life, but that goes for any gender. I absolutely understand why people choose to stay home with their children if they have the means, mother or father.

What I don’t understand is feeling more womanly for doing so, or “less of a woman” for not.

I think its the stress factor. Any "me" time we get as women to make ourselves feel whole from within is what makes us feel accomplished.

I hated not having time to pamper myself, or take proper care of me. Exercise, Dr./dental visits, hair salon visits, etc. were shortened or rushed all the time and I felt "ugly"... that was the time I would have killed for a personal assistant or a body double. Heck even time for sex was scheduled and rushed.

Yes!!!

Shit, I've been trying to schedule a hair appointment since last month. I finally have one on the 30th!

You'll see Carrie. It's EXHAUSTING working AND having small kids. It's probably maybe even just as exhausting when theyre older too. I HATE feeling exhausted. I feel like I never get anything accomplished, and like Paintedlady said you feel ugly.

paintedlady said:

CarrieMpls said:

Being a full-time caregiver for your children is a wonderfully fulfilling way to spend your time and your life, but that goes for any gender. I absolutely understand why people choose to stay home with their children if they have the means, mother or father.

What I don’t understand is feeling more womanly for doing so, or “less of a woman” for not.

I think its the stress factor. Any "me" time we get as women to make ourselves feel whole from within is what makes us feel accomplished.

I hated not having time to pamper myself, or take proper care of me. Exercise, Dr./dental visits, hair salon visits, etc. were shortened or rushed all the time and I felt "ugly"... that was the time I would have killed for a personal assistant or a body double. Heck even time for sex was scheduled and rushed.

So it was your hectic schedule that made you feel less womanly?

I guess I just don’t think in terms of gender that way. I’m not sure what would make me feel less womanly. For me it’s so internal and personal. It’s who I am, not what I do.

Interesting topic. Probably for another thread.

TotalANXiousNESS said:

paintedlady said:

I think its the stress factor. Any "me" time we get as women to make ourselves feel whole from within is what makes us feel accomplished.

I hated not having time to pamper myself, or take proper care of me. Exercise, Dr./dental visits, hair salon visits, etc. were shortened or rushed all the time and I felt "ugly"... that was the time I would have killed for a personal assistant or a body double. Heck even time for sex was scheduled and rushed.

Yes!!!

Shit, I've been trying to schedule a hair appointment since last month. I finally have one on the 30th!

You'll see Carrie. It's EXHAUSTING working AND having small kids. It's probably maybe even just as exhausting when theyre older too. I HATE feeling exhausted. I feel like I never get anything accomplished, and like Paintedlady said you feel ugly.

I get that it’s exhausting! And stressful!

I just don’t get what that has to do with feeling more or less womanly.

TonyVanDam said:

CarrieMpls said:

paintedlady said:

I think its the stress factor. Any "me" time we get as women to make ourselves feel whole from within is what makes us feel accomplished.

I hated not having time to pamper myself, or take proper care of me. Exercise, Dr./dental visits, hair salon visits, etc. were shortened or rushed all the time and I felt "ugly"... that was the time I would have killed for a personal assistant or a body double. Heck even time for sex was scheduled and rushed.

So it was your hectic schedule that made you feel less womanly?

I guess I just don’t think in terms of gender that way. I’m not sure what would make me feel less womanly. For me it’s so internal and personal. It’s who I am, not what I do.

Interesting topic. Probably for another thread.

Well... felling "womanly" for me equals feeling sexy, and all that plays an important part. Being stressed I felt like a robot/machine and less human... sexy.... womanly. IMO

CarrieMpls said:

TotalANXiousNESS said:

Yes!!!

Shit, I've been trying to schedule a hair appointment since last month. I finally have one on the 30th!

You'll see Carrie. It's EXHAUSTING working AND having small kids. It's probably maybe even just as exhausting when theyre older too. I HATE feeling exhausted. I feel like I never get anything accomplished, and like Paintedlady said you feel ugly.

I get that it’s exhausting! And stressful!

I just don’t get what that has to do with feeling more or less womanly.

I'm not understanding either Carrie. Maybe it's a different definition of "womanly". My life is hectic to the max and there are plenty of times when I feel ugly because things aren't getting taken care of, but that still doesn't make me feel like less of a woman.

I realize I've over-generalizing here but I think in general women with children tend to equate their womanliness more in line with their mothering then as a general sense. Where those of us without children don't have that factor. Not that it's in any way a deficiency, it's just a facet of womanhood we don't have.

paintedlady said:

Tremolina said:

Are the two of you now saying that all that female emancipation of being equal, being your own man/woman, making your own money, having your own job, is not your cup of tea? All that is what a lot of women still want these days. They want to study, work and be independent, have a succesfull carreer, besides that they also want to be a mother, and go out and have lots have friends, and go on a vacations, and have hobbies AND be your partner/girlfriend/wife....

--

[Edited 10/19/10 9:48am]

All I can say is that, being successful at the workplace didn't make me feel more like a woman.

I felt more womanly when I laughed with my children and had full days with them instead of the rushing back and forth in both worlds. Because honestly I was not happy being un-able to give full focus to either one.

I hated being at work and having my mind on my son, or vice versa. I also had no support at home with the kids when I got home. The kids and all that was home stuff was dumped on me as soon as I walked in the door. It was unfair. I was the main bread winner AND I had to cook and clean too. I was worn out.

I sued and collect child support and stay home and now work when I want to. I am the happiest I've even been because the kids give me a true sense of joy and accomplishment.

That is the truth, I like fancy things, sure.. but they are not as important to me as living a totally stress free life. To have both would be ideal but I would rather be poor and spend my days with my kids anyday than earn what I did and spend virtually no time with my kids.

Many may disagree, but that is MY truth.

That's not good. When both partners work, both should also do their part in householding and caretaking. But that feeling of having your mind at home when you are at work and vice versa is maybe even worse. That really must have made you feel stressed out and like you can do nothing right....

I don't have children but I know many people who do and see many women especially struggling a lot with combining their work with their kids and their relationship and all the other things they want to do. Most just don't want to choose, but want it all.

You seem to be one of the few women that has come to accept that choosing makes you happier.

Tremolina said:

paintedlady said:

All I can say is that, being successful at the workplace didn't make me feel more like a woman.

I felt more womanly when I laughed with my children and had full days with them instead of the rushing back and forth in both worlds. Because honestly I was not happy being un-able to give full focus to either one.

I hated being at work and having my mind on my son, or vice versa. I also had no support at home with the kids when I got home. The kids and all that was home stuff was dumped on me as soon as I walked in the door. It was unfair. I was the main bread winner AND I had to cook and clean too. I was worn out.

I sued and collect child support and stay home and now work when I want to. I am the happiest I've even been because the kids give me a true sense of joy and accomplishment.

That is the truth, I like fancy things, sure.. but they are not as important to me as living a totally stress free life. To have both would be ideal but I would rather be poor and spend my days with my kids anyday than earn what I did and spend virtually no time with my kids.

Many may disagree, but that is MY truth.

That's not good. When both partners work, both should also do their part in householding and caretaking. But that feeling of having your mind at home when you are at work and vice versa is maybe even worse. That really must have made you feel stressed out and like you can do nothing right....

I don't have children but I know many people who do and see many women especially struggling a lot with combining their work with their kids and their relationship and all the other things they want to do. Most just don't want to choose, but want it all.

You seem to be one of the few women that has come to accept that choosing makes you happier.

What made me come to terms with that realization is that raising children is only temporary. Kids grow up (thank God) and you get to focus on personal ambitions later.

Some people who plan differently, get their careers established THEN they work on their families. Either way, it all works to about the same in the long run. So I stopped stressing out about my career and focused on a more traditional role. Babies now, career later.... because life should not be about rules but what works for you as an individual.

[Edited 10/19/10 13:57pm]

paintedlady said:

Tremolina said:

That's not good. When both partners work, both should also do their part in householding and caretaking. But that feeling of having your mind at home when you are at work and vice versa is maybe even worse. That really must have made you feel stressed out and like you can do nothing right....

I don't have children but I know many people who do and see many women especially struggling a lot with combining their work with their kids and their relationship and all the other things they want to do. Most just don't want to choose, but want it all.

You seem to be one of the few women that has come to accept that choosing makes you happier.

What made me come to terms with that realization is that raising children is only temporary. Kids grow up (thank God) and you get to focus on personal ambitions later.

Some people who plan differently, get their careers established THEN they work on their families. Either way, it all works to about the same in the long run. So I stopped stressing out about my career and focused on a more traditional role. Babies now, career later.... because life should not be about rules but what works for you as an individual.

[Edited 10/19/10 13:57pm]

Correct, your kids are only young once. Before you know it they are bigger than you and smarter too. It's best to enjoy it as much as you can I think, but who am I. All I can say is that I see many women around their 30's desperately going for children, but not wanting to let go of anything in retrun. Plenty of them later get stuck.

Tremolina said:

[Edited 10/19/10 13:57pm]

Correct, your kids are only young once. Before you know it they are bigger than you and smarter too. It's best to enjoy it as much as you can I think, but who am I. All I can say is that I see many women around their 30's desperately going for children, but not wanting to let go of anything in retrun. Plenty of them later get stuck.

Pressures to have it all and be it all is what most women face daily. I wonder if men get ridiculed for wanting to be stay-at-home dads.

I sometimes wonder if its hard for men and women to know exactly what they want out of life without overwhelming themselves earlier on. We are now in the information age and so many choices are readily available to us. Travel is more attainable and cheaper, and more people are seeking careers and lifestyles their parents wouldn't of even thought of.

Heck even looking at "octomom's" situation... its mind boggling...who would have thought???

This is why I appreciate a man that knows exactly what out of women. No time wasted.

TonyVanDam said:

In no specific order.....

1. a companionship.

2. sex.

3. a homecook meal.

4. a "help meek" (a partner that also makes money).

5. the ability the have children for her man.

EDIT: #5 is optional for some.

[Edited 10/19/10 7:45am]

sex and food in any order or at the same time

I just wanna say that I don't having children or not having children makes you any more or any less of a woman.

We all apparently have different ways we look at what makes us feel womanly.

I thought a lot about it and tryed to figure out where I get my feelings from on this, and it's definetly not society, because I think anymore society portrays a 'woman' as having it all, the way Tremolina described. Carrer and Children AND a fabulous lifestyle.

In my ideal situation, I have happy kids, a fresh face, a clean house with clean sheets on the all the beds, and a roast in the oven. I'm there for every PTO meeting with a fresh batch of brownies, and at every fundraiser for boyscouts. And of course all with a lovely satisfied man behind me.

Just to weigh in on the children aspect of this cause we all want some ass or companionship...(or both if possible lol)

I love children, I really do. But it wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me. (anymore)

If I have honest deep strong feelings for someone and for whatever reason they couldn't have or wouldnt want children...I mean if I really loved them/cared for them like i'd tell em I'd stay with them regardless. Children should only be an extension of the love you already have for the person (in most cases) it can still be beautiful without it.

Shoewhore said:

ZombieKitten said:

guys are homebodies, they LOVE "home"

they want to feel at home, they want a safe haven from the world

a woman CAN do it for them (a lot of guys can manage very well on their own)

(but I do think they rely a little bit too much on the woman to do it all FOR them

just like their mummies)

men are pretty insecure, about all sorts of stuff, a woman's feedback (verbal or non-verbal) can make everything all right. I guess you call that support.

someone to bounce ideas off when making a decision - someone to make the decisions with TOGETHER as a team

and sex.

if they aren't too tired al the time

JoeTyler said:

not sure if men truly/deeply want children...

not all men, just like not all women

in 1996 the master broke up with me because he got the harebrained idea that I didn't like kids

WTF!

anyway, he was basically out looking for the mother of his children, and I got the job

A lot of you have read on other threads about how I can't have children.

All I ever wanted was to have a family, so it was really hard when I found out I couldn't. I felt like no guy would want me...

I met a guy last year who was very clear about "wanting at least two kids" before we went on a first date. He kept pressing the issue, and asked me point-blank: "Can you even conceive?" When I told him I felt that it was an awkward question, he say, "Sorry. But I'll still take you out."

Wow.

I can definitely fulfill the other "requirements" on the OP list, tho...

chocolate1 said:

A lot of you have read on other threads about how I can't have children.

All I ever wanted was to have a family, so it was really hard when I found out I couldn't. I felt like no guy would want me...

I met a guy last year who was very clear about "wanting at least two kids" before we went on a first date. He kept pressing the issue, and asked me point-blank: "Can you even conceive?" When I told him I felt that it was an awkward question, he say, "Sorry. But I'll still take you out."

Wow.

I can definitely fulfill the other "requirements" on the OP list, tho...

I have a friend who would have LOVED more than anything to have children, but her odds of passing on cystic fibrosis were so high, she got her tubes tied. She met a guy who didn't want kids, and they have made a life for themselves based on other passions. Those guys ARE out there.

Just watch out for the ones who think that kids will make a relationship a "commitment" and that without kids, they aren't as "tied down" freeing them up to leave whenever they want

ZombieKitten said:

chocolate1 said:

A lot of you have read on other threads about how I can't have children.

All I ever wanted was to have a family, so it was really hard when I found out I couldn't. I felt like no guy would want me...

I met a guy last year who was very clear about "wanting at least two kids" before we went on a first date. He kept pressing the issue, and asked me point-blank: "Can you even conceive?" When I told him I felt that it was an awkward question, he say, "Sorry. But I'll still take you out."

Wow.

I can definitely fulfill the other "requirements" on the OP list, tho...

Just watch out for the ones who think that kids will make a relationship a "commitment" and that without kids, they aren't as "tied down" freeing them up to leave whenever they want

I already know him....

But there are also the women who think having a kid with a guy means he's committed to her.

chocolate1 said:

ZombieKitten said:

Just watch out for the ones who think that kids will make a relationship a "commitment" and that without kids, they aren't as "tied down" freeing them up to leave whenever they want

I already know him....

But there are also the women who think having a kid with a guy means he's committed to her.

for all the wrong reasons - for the sake of the kids, or because that 's what he is expected to do as a man etc

permission to date her friends?

ZombieKitten said:

chocolate1 said:

I already know him....

But there are also the women who think having a kid with a guy means he's committed to her.

for all the wrong reasons - for the sake of the kids, or because that 's what he is expected to do as a man etc

or when they know you dont want kids, some lie that they can't / won't conceive, but can / will ...

--

[Edited 10/20/10 5:58am]

Tremolina said:

ZombieKitten said:

for all the wrong reasons - for the sake of the kids, or because that 's what he is expected to do as a man etc

or when they know you dont want kids, some lie that they can't / won't conceive, but can / will ...

all just to keep him

I lied and said I liked kids, I don't really

ZombieKitten said:

Tremolina said:

or when they know you dont want kids, some lie that they can't / won't conceive, but can / will ...

all just to keep him

It made me run like hell

Tremolina said:

ZombieKitten said:

for all the wrong reasons - for the sake of the kids, or because that 's what he is expected to do as a man etc

or when they know you dont want kids, some lie that they can't / won't conceive, but can / will ...

--

[Edited 10/20/10 5:58am]

One of my friends had surgery, and was told she'd never have kids. She truly believed that.

Well, 19 years later, her son's Dad is still saying she tricked him!

chocolate1 said:

Tremolina said:

or when they know you dont want kids, some lie that they can't / won't conceive, but can / will ...

--

[Edited 10/20/10 5:58am]

One of my friends had surgery, and was told she'd never have kids. She truly believed that.

Well, 19 years later, her son's Dad is still saying she tricked him!

That's hard. Luckily no unwanted children for me. Once however I was confronted with a woman who lied that she couldnt conceive because of illness, but also wouldnt want to conceive because she wouldn't want to put a child in this cruel, cruel world...

The exact opposite of this.

Tremolina said:

paintedlady said:

What made me come to terms with that realization is that raising children is only temporary. Kids grow up (thank God) and you get to focus on personal ambitions later.

Some people who plan differently, get their careers established THEN they work on their families. Either way, it all works to about the same in the long run. So I stopped stressing out about my career and focused on a more traditional role. Babies now, career later.... because life should not be about rules but what works for you as an individual.

[Edited 10/19/10 13:57pm]

Correct, your kids are only young once. Before you know it they are bigger than you and smarter too. It's best to enjoy it as much as you can I think, but who am I. All I can say is that I see many women around their 30's desperately going for children, but not wanting to let go of anything in retrun. Plenty of them later get stuck.

It's a good point that you raise. As someone who sort of straddles the generations between traditional and liberated women, I often wonder about the myth of the superwoman that we were sold on back in the day. I wonder if it's really possible to "have it all" and at what cost? You suggest that making a choice is key to a happier existence and you might be onto something because I see a trend with a lot of young women today making significant sacrifices in order to be stay at home moms.

Tremolina said:

chocolate1 said:

One of my friends had surgery, and was told she'd never have kids. She truly believed that.

Well, 19 years later, her son's Dad is still saying she tricked him!

That's hard. Luckily no unwanted children for me. Once however I was confronted with a woman who lied that she couldnt conceive because of illness, but also wouldnt want to conceive because she wouldn't want to put a child in this cruel, cruel world...

and then? she became pregnant to "trap" you?