I refuse to get off Christianity's jock because I refuse to get off the jock of all organized religion.

I refuse to get off the jock of some man made bullshit that is constantly used as a tool to opress me and my community as well as others (hello, women). Sorry, just can't do it.

Edit:

And when I say bullshit I use it as a general term, the way I do with a million other things. I'm referring to the oppressive non-sensical stuff. I recognize that a lot of good also comes from folk who consider themselves Christians (or other religions).

[Edited 10/6/10 12:22pm]

^amen.

DesireeNevermind said:

UptownCitizen said:

[img:$uid]http://www.dallasvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Alec-Henrikson.jpg[/img:$uid]

Yet another one: Alec Henriksen, a Utah native who was a student at Earlham College in Indiana, was found dead on Sept. 30.

more at DallasVoice.com

If you or anyone you know is personally going through this, contact The Trevor Project. By the way, they can always use your ... donations.

And Ms. Nevermind - your argument that Christianity isn't necessarily an influence in these suicides isn't holding water. It must be a coincidence that this took place just a couple of days before. One of the most infuriating things about this is that many 'Christians' who wield Christianity to protest gay rights probably have never even stepped foot in a church nor have actually read the Bible they say they're defending.

[Edited 10/5/10 19:40pm]

Oh it's holding water alright but some folk just want to blame Christianity for every dang thing under the sun and that is what's not holding water. Have you ever heard of copycat incidents? I think that these poor folk (kid and adult) are killing themselves because they see it as a way out just like Tyler. Remember that crazy asian dude that shot up his college campus? that same week there were several more murder/suicide attempts. He claimed in his manifesto that he was being discriminated against among other things. People were trying to blame that on racism and Christianity too.

People need to get off the jock of Christianity because it is not the only religion out there being biased and unfair nor are all it's members holding the same views toward gays. And like I said, such an attitude does a great disservice to all the gay christians out there who have no problem with their faith and work to change views of the ignorant (many who use Christianity as a cover/crutch for the attitudes they've always held). We agree....many of the folk calling themselves christians probably never read the bible or stepped foot in a church. That's why you have to look at the PERSON not the club they claim to belong to.

How many of its members know this and yet sit silent on the issue? Does it make it somehow better because everybody does it?

When I see Christians come together and speak out against the hatred shown to gays then I'll eat my words.

Until then, organized religion can go fuck itself.

johnart said:

I refuse to get off Christianity's jock because I refuse to get off the jock of all organized religion.

I refuse to get off the jock of some man made bullshit that is constantly used as a tool to opress me and my community as well as others (hello, women). Sorry, just can't do it.

Edit:

And when I say bullshit I use it as a general term, the way I do with a million other things. I'm referring to the oppressive non-sensical stuff. I recognize that a lot of good also comes from folk who consider themselves Christians (or other religions).

[Edited 10/6/10 12:22pm]

Vendetta1 said:

Until then, organized religion can go fuck itself.

sextonseven said:

DesireeNevermind said:

Well...I dunno about that. I've always said people use other things (family, politics, religion) as an excuse and a validator for how they naturally feel.

I read the letter. I wouldn't call that anti-gay bias to the degree that you're trying to make it. Some people just don't approve of certain things...that's not the same as hating someone so much that you would wish them harm or dead. That letter didn't sound dangerous or hateful to me....i doubt that person would do what Tyler's classmates did. Didn't appear that the author wanted to hurt anybody but rather didn't want to be lumped in the same category as those that do. Just like some muslims don't want to be lumped with those that go around preaching holy war.

And familial and political reasons for anti-gay bias stem from religion. Why are most Republicans against gay marriage? Because it's not the Christian way.

The letter writer states, "As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage..." which means they do not want equal rights for gays. That's anti-gay bias.

familial, political, cultural and the big one PLAIN PERSONAL PREFERENCE. People don't get it. They think all biases are learned and they aren't. Many are biases that come naturally to people. they can't help how they feel but because we say bias is wrong in all forms, folk grasp onto something to help legitimize it. As for most republicans being against gay marriage....most might actually be gay themselves. So what do you do with someone who's gay and doesn't support their own causes? Does that gay republican go to a Christian church or Jewish synagogue? Probably not. Many republicans are against illegal immigration but as we see with Meg Whitman, they probably have illegal immigrants working for them. That's not about Christianity, it's about money and whatever enriches their lot on the whole.

As for the letter writer....I wouldn't go as far as to say that person is against equal rights for gays because I don't see them writing that they don't want gays to vote, have fair employment, fair housing, adoption rights, equal education and so on and so forth. All I see them writing is that they don't want to be lumped in with any so called christian folks who take their bias to an extreme level like the idiots who protest at soldier's funerals for instance.

Again...people are trying to politicize Tyler's death and ignoring the facts at hand. He was being exploited by his roommates and who knows what else they did to him. Would he have killed himself if the guy he was hooking up with went and blabbed about it afterwards? I doubt it. The very real humiliation that comes with having your intimate moments aired on the internet for anyone to see is what sent him over the edge. My guess is his ostracizing and bullying by those two were ongoing and they broke his spirit. I doubt that his roommates were Christian, probably sikh and maybe buddhist. Did their faith cause them to videotape tyler. I seriously doubt it. they did to him what they would do to anyone they perceived as weak. That's what bullies do...prey on the weak and as we know through history, the weak come in all colors shapes sizes etc.

Folk can blame Christianity for every evil under the sun. I aint buying it...not with a rusty penny.

DesireeNevermind said:

sextonseven said:

And familial and political reasons for anti-gay bias stem from religion. Why are most Republicans against gay marriage? Because it's not the Christian way.

The letter writer states, "As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage..." which means they do not want equal rights for gays. That's anti-gay bias.

familial, political, cultural and the big one PLAIN PERSONAL PREFERENCE. People don't get it. They think all biases are learned and they aren't. Many are biases that come naturally to people. they can't help how they feel but because we say bias is wrong in all forms, folk grasp onto something to help legitimize it. As for most republicans being against gay marriage....most might actually be gay themselves. So what do you do with someone who's gay and doesn't support their own causes? Does that gay republican go to a Christian church or Jewish synagogue? Probably not. Many republicans are against illegal immigration but as we see with Meg Whitman, they probably have illegal immigrants working for them. That's not about Christianity, it's about money and whatever enriches their lot on the whole.

As for the letter writer....I wouldn't go as far as to say that person is against equal rights for gays because I don't see them writing that they don't want gays to vote, have fair employment, fair housing, adoption rights, equal education and so on and so forth. All I see them writing is that they don't want to be lumped in with any so called christian folks who take their bias to an extreme level like the idiots who protest at soldier's funerals for instance.

Again...people are trying to politicize Tyler's death and ignoring the facts at hand. He was being exploited by his roommates and who knows what else they did to him. Would he have killed himself if the guy he was hooking up with went and blabbed about it afterwards? I doubt it. The very real humiliation that comes with having your intimate moments aired on the internet for anyone to see is what sent him over the edge. My guess is his ostracizing and bullying by those two were ongoing and they broke his spirit. I doubt that his roommates were Christian, probably sikh and maybe buddhist. Did their faith cause them to videotape tyler. I seriously doubt it. they did to him what they would do to anyone they perceived as weak. That's what bullies do...prey on the weak and as we know through history, the weak come in all colors shapes sizes etc.

Folk can blame Christianity for every evil under the sun. I aint buying it...not with a rusty penny.

It's natural to want to deny someone the same rights as yourself? Really?

I repeat, if you are against gays getting married in a court of law then you are against them having equal rights.

sextonseven said:

DesireeNevermind said:

familial, political, cultural and the big one PLAIN PERSONAL PREFERENCE. People don't get it. They think all biases are learned and they aren't. Many are biases that come naturally to people. they can't help how they feel but because we say bias is wrong in all forms, folk grasp onto something to help legitimize it. As for most republicans being against gay marriage....most might actually be gay themselves. So what do you do with someone who's gay and doesn't support their own causes? Does that gay republican go to a Christian church or Jewish synagogue? Probably not. Many republicans are against illegal immigration but as we see with Meg Whitman, they probably have illegal immigrants working for them. That's not about Christianity, it's about money and whatever enriches their lot on the whole.

As for the letter writer....I wouldn't go as far as to say that person is against equal rights for gays because I don't see them writing that they don't want gays to vote, have fair employment, fair housing, adoption rights, equal education and so on and so forth. All I see them writing is that they don't want to be lumped in with any so called christian folks who take their bias to an extreme level like the idiots who protest at soldier's funerals for instance.

Again...people are trying to politicize Tyler's death and ignoring the facts at hand. He was being exploited by his roommates and who knows what else they did to him. Would he have killed himself if the guy he was hooking up with went and blabbed about it afterwards? I doubt it. The very real humiliation that comes with having your intimate moments aired on the internet for anyone to see is what sent him over the edge. My guess is his ostracizing and bullying by those two were ongoing and they broke his spirit. I doubt that his roommates were Christian, probably sikh and maybe buddhist. Did their faith cause them to videotape tyler. I seriously doubt it. they did to him what they would do to anyone they perceived as weak. That's what bullies do...prey on the weak and as we know through history, the weak come in all colors shapes sizes etc.

Folk can blame Christianity for every evil under the sun. I aint buying it...not with a rusty penny.

It's natural to want to deny someone the same rights as yourself? Really?

I repeat, if you are against gays getting married in a court of law then you are against them having equal rights.

johnart said:

I refuse to get off Christianity's jock because I refuse to get off the jock of all organized religion.

I refuse to get off the jock of some man made bullshit that is constantly used as a tool to opress me and my community as well as others (hello, women). Sorry, just can't do it.

Edit:

And when I say bullshit I use it as a general term, the way I do with a million other things. I'm referring to the oppressive non-sensical stuff. I recognize that a lot of good also comes from folk who consider themselves Christians (or other religions).

[Edited 10/6/10 12:22pm]

I totally agree. We are not bashing all Christians here. There are many that let gays be and don't toe the company line. The fact remains however, that it is the company line and that needs to change.

DesireeNevermind said:

UptownCitizen said:

[img:$uid]http://www.dallasvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Alec-Henrikson.jpg[/img:$uid]

Yet another one: Alec Henriksen, a Utah native who was a student at Earlham College in Indiana, was found dead on Sept. 30.

more at DallasVoice.com

If you or anyone you know is personally going through this, contact The Trevor Project. By the way, they can always use your ... donations.

And Ms. Nevermind - your argument that Christianity isn't necessarily an influence in these suicides isn't holding water. It must be a coincidence that this took place just a couple of days before. One of the most infuriating things about this is that many 'Christians' who wield Christianity to protest gay rights probably have never even stepped foot in a church nor have actually read the Bible they say they're defending.

Oh it's holding water alright but some folk just want to blame Christianity for every dang thing under the sun and that is what's not holding water. Have you ever heard of copycat incidents? I think that these poor folk (kid and adult) are killing themselves because they see it as a way out just like Tyler. Remember that crazy asian dude that shot up his college campus? that same week there were several more murder/suicide attempts. He claimed in his manifesto that he was being discriminated against among other things. People were trying to blame that on racism and Christianity too.

Actually, it's not holding water at all. Not even a little bit. We're not talking about 'every dang thing' ... we are talking about gay teens killing themselves. And suggesting that these guys might be killing themselves just because they know someone else did the same thing has got to be one of the most asinine things I've ever read in these forums.

For the most part, they're killing themselves because they realize who they are and who they're surrounded by. They see no way to integrate themselves within this mess and choose the only option they feel that's available to them - to end this life. It's not a fucking game of taking shots.

People need to get off the jock of Christianity because it is not the only religion out there being biased and unfair nor are all it's members holding the same views toward gays. And like I said, such an attitude does a great disservice to all the gay christians out there who have no problem with their faith and work to change views of the ignorant (many who use Christianity as a cover/crutch for the attitudes they've always held). We agree....many of the folk calling themselves christians probably never read the bible or stepped foot in a church. That's why you have to look at the PERSON not the club they claim to belong to.

I completely disagree. Christianity hasn't only done damage via individuals; it's done unprecedented damage globally as a system and a structure. And about those good (and rare) Christian folk? Yeah, I'm sure they exist ... somewhere ... but if they stand by the sidelines and let other not-so-good Christians represent them, who's to blame for that? Especially at a time like this when we need them to be present?

Vendetta1 said:

DesireeNevermind said:

Oh it's holding water alright but some folk just want to blame Christianity for every dang thing under the sun and that is what's not holding water. Have you ever heard of copycat incidents? I think that these poor folk (kid and adult) are killing themselves because they see it as a way out just like Tyler. Remember that crazy asian dude that shot up his college campus? that same week there were several more murder/suicide attempts. He claimed in his manifesto that he was being discriminated against among other things. People were trying to blame that on racism and Christianity too.

People need to get off the jock of Christianity because it is not the only religion out there being biased and unfair nor are all it's members holding the same views toward gays. And like I said, such an attitude does a great disservice to all the gay christians out there who have no problem with their faith and work to change views of the ignorant (many who use Christianity as a cover/crutch for the attitudes they've always held). We agree....many of the folk calling themselves christians probably never read the bible or stepped foot in a church. That's why you have to look at the PERSON not the club they claim to belong to.

How many of its members know this and yet sit silent on the issue? Does it make it somehow better because everybody does it?

When I see Christians come together and speak out against the hatred shown to gays then I'll eat my words.

Until then, organized religion can go fuck itself.

It's memebers? That would imply that there is some single, big, unilateral christian church that every Chrisitan on the planet attends. Such a place doesn't exist. You have christians sects that don't acknowledge and agree with other chrisitan sects. Do Baptists fall in line with Mormons? Probably not. Do Mormons fall in line with Greek Orthodox? Probably not. Do Catholics fall in line with Jews for Jesus (hybrid of judaism & christianity)? Probably not. Do any of those fall in line with other faiths and their many sects? Likely not.

You want to see christians come together to speak out against hatred against gays? How do you know you haven't seen this already? Tyler's classmates held a candle light vigil for him and spoke about the tragic loss. Did anybody do a pole to see how many were Christian. Tyler's parents spoke once and thanked the outpouring of support they've received. Did anybody do a pole to see how many of those people were Christian?

Does anyone even bother to check out the numerous gay friendly christian churches that exist? United Church of Christ comes to mind and i think they have several churches and I think the one in long beach was among the first to perform gay weddings when it was legal in Cali - but heck folk need to get to googling.

I agree organized religion can go fuck itself. Then again...organized anything can go fuck itself IMHO. The more organized a thing becomes...the more corrupt and self-serving that thing becomes.

sextonseven said:

DesireeNevermind said:

familial, political, cultural and the big one PLAIN PERSONAL PREFERENCE. People don't get it. They think all biases are learned and they aren't. Many are biases that come naturally to people. they can't help how they feel but because we say bias is wrong in all forms, folk grasp onto something to help legitimize it. As for most republicans being against gay marriage....most might actually be gay themselves. So what do you do with someone who's gay and doesn't support their own causes? Does that gay republican go to a Christian church or Jewish synagogue? Probably not. Many republicans are against illegal immigration but as we see with Meg Whitman, they probably have illegal immigrants working for them. That's not about Christianity, it's about money and whatever enriches their lot on the whole.

As for the letter writer....I wouldn't go as far as to say that person is against equal rights for gays because I don't see them writing that they don't want gays to vote, have fair employment, fair housing, adoption rights, equal education and so on and so forth. All I see them writing is that they don't want to be lumped in with any so called christian folks who take their bias to an extreme level like the idiots who protest at soldier's funerals for instance.

Again...people are trying to politicize Tyler's death and ignoring the facts at hand. He was being exploited by his roommates and who knows what else they did to him. Would he have killed himself if the guy he was hooking up with went and blabbed about it afterwards? I doubt it. The very real humiliation that comes with having your intimate moments aired on the internet for anyone to see is what sent him over the edge. My guess is his ostracizing and bullying by those two were ongoing and they broke his spirit. I doubt that his roommates were Christian, probably sikh and maybe buddhist. Did their faith cause them to videotape tyler. I seriously doubt it. they did to him what they would do to anyone they perceived as weak. That's what bullies do...prey on the weak and as we know through history, the weak come in all colors shapes sizes etc.

Folk can blame Christianity for every evil under the sun. I aint buying it...not with a rusty penny.

It's natural to want to deny someone the same rights as yourself? Really?

I repeat, if you are against gays getting married in a court of law then you are against them having equal rights.

It's natural to not like something because it offends you or seems weird to you or whatever. The bad side effect is that some people take that offense/personal feeling and try and turn it into law. That part is not natural, it's plain mean and selfish. Again...what does this have to do with Tyler leaping to his death. I doubt gay marriage was on his mind when he killed himself.

As for your last statement....all politics. What about gays who are in long term relationships and don't care about or endorse gay marriage. Are they against gays having equal rights? How do you tell somebody what to support and how do you define for somebody what an equal right is?

DesireeNevermind said:

Vendetta1 said:

How many of its members know this and yet sit silent on the issue? Does it make it somehow better because everybody does it?

When I see Christians come together and speak out against the hatred shown to gays then I'll eat my words.

Until then, organized religion can go fuck itself.

It's memebers? That would imply that there is some single, big, unilateral christian church that every Chrisitan on the planet attends. Such a place doesn't exist. You have christians sects that don't acknowledge and agree with other chrisitan sects. Do Baptists fall in line with Mormons? Probably not. Do Mormons fall in line with Greek Orthodox? Probably not. Do Catholics fall in line with Jews for Jesus (hybrid of judaism & christianity)? Probably not. Do any of those fall in line with other faiths and their many sects? Likely not.

You want to see christians come together to speak out against hatred against gays? How do you know you haven't seen this already? Tyler's classmates held a candle light vigil for him and spoke about the tragic loss. Did anybody do a pole to see how many were Christian. Tyler's parents spoke once and thanked the outpouring of support they've received. Did anybody do a pole to see how many of those people were Christian?

Does anyone even bother to check out the numerous gay friendly christian churches that exist? United Church of Christ comes to mind and i think they have several churches and I think the one in long beach was among the first to perform gay weddings when it was legal in Cali - but heck folk need to get to googling.

I agree organized religion can go fuck itself. Then again...organized anything can go fuck itself IMHO. The more organized a thing becomes...the more corrupt and self-serving that thing becomes.

Members of the Christian faith. I didn't think I would need to say that since we keep talking about Christians.

And I am well aware of gay friendly Christian churches.

And no, no one took a poll to see who is Christian and who is not but what I can tell you is that I have not seen any group of Christians come out and condemn the hatred against gays since these deaths have started occuring.

DesireeNevermind said:

sextonseven said:

It's natural to want to deny someone the same rights as yourself? Really?

I repeat, if you are against gays getting married in a court of law then you are against them having equal rights.

It's natural to not like something because it offends you or seems weird to you or whatever. The bad side effect is that some people take that offense/personal feeling and try and turn it into law. That part is not natural, it's plain mean and selfish. Again...what does this have to do with Tyler leaping to his death. I doubt gay marriage was on his mind when he killed himself.

As for your last statement....all politics. What about gays who are in long term relationships and don't care about or endorse gay marriage. Are they against gays having equal rights? How do you tell somebody what to support and how do you define for somebody what an equal right is?

I cannot speak for other orgers but I, PERSONALLY grew up in a Christian Home, in Christian Churches and suffered incredibly to the point that yes (had I not been too afraid to die) I wished I could kill myself. I bet the majority of the gay folk who are holding Christianity's hand to the fire grew up in the same circumstances. It's not like we are making shit up and that there is no valid reason for our anger against this faith and the people in it who are either victimizing us or standing on the sidelines doing nothing while their brethren do.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

DesireeNevermind said:

It's natural to not like something because it offends you or seems weird to you or whatever. The bad side effect is that some people take that offense/personal feeling and try and turn it into law. That part is not natural, it's plain mean and selfish. Again...what does this have to do with Tyler leaping to his death. I doubt gay marriage was on his mind when he killed himself.

As for your last statement....all politics. What about gays who are in long term relationships and don't care about or endorse gay marriage. Are they against gays having equal rights? How do you tell somebody what to support and how do you define for somebody what an equal right is?

I cannot speak for other orgers but I, PERSONALLY grew up in a Christian Home, in Christian Churches and suffered incredibly to the point that yes (had I not been too afraid to die) I wished I could kill myself. I bet the majority of the gay folk who are holding Christianity's hand to the fire grew up in the same circumstances. It's not like we are making shit up and that there is no valid reason for our anger against this faith and the people in it who are either victimizing us or standing on the sidelines doing nothing while their brethren do.

UptownCitizen said:

DesireeNevermind said:

Actually, it's not holding water at all. Not even a little bit. We're not talking about 'every dang thing' ... we are talking about gay teens killing themselves. And suggesting that these guys might be killing themselves just because they know someone else did the same thing has got to be one of the most asinine things I've ever read in these forums. You've got to study human psychology a little more. You'd be surprised what people do when they see others do it. Isn't that how political movements are built, how mobs are built, how social networks get started? Take Rosa Parks for example, she refused to stand up then others became inspired to do the same- next thing you know a movement is created. Unfortunately we as humans will follow another down both the positive and the negative paths. If other gay teens saw that Tyler's only way out was suicide and they are undergoing bullying then why wouldn't they likewise commit suicide? You actually think that the suicide attempts that immediately followed Tyler's death are just coincidence?

For the most part, they're killing themselves because they realize who they are and who they're surrounded by. They see no way to integrate themselves within this mess and choose the only option they feel that's available to them - to end this life. It's not a fucking game of taking shots. You've ignored or are oblivious to the fact that some of the kids who've recently commited or attempted suicide weren't gay. The one thing they all had in common was that they were being harassed to no end. Bullying is the culprit here and I will say it till I'm blue in the face....bullies don't give a fuck. they will harass anyone perceived as weak and anything at any moment can make us appear weak from our sexuality to our financial status to our skin color, whether we speak with an accent, whether we're small, fat , cross-eyed or what have you.

People need to get off the jock of Christianity because it is not the only religion out there being biased and unfair nor are all it's members holding the same views toward gays. And like I said, such an attitude does a great disservice to all the gay christians out there who have no problem with their faith and work to change views of the ignorant (many who use Christianity as a cover/crutch for the attitudes they've always held). We agree....many of the folk calling themselves christians probably never read the bible or stepped foot in a church. That's why you have to look at the PERSON not the club they claim to belong to.

I completely disagree. Christianity hasn't only done damage via individuals; it's done unprecedented damage globally as a system and a structure. And about those good (and rare) Christian folk? Yeah, I'm sure they exist ... somewhere ... but if they stand by the sidelines and let other not-so-good Christians represent them, who's to blame for that? Especially at a time like this when we need them to be present?

where are all these damage weilding christians that rule the world? how many of them are there? replace christian with muslim and you've got the same silly ass argument the scare mongerers give us about why we should hate muslims. replace christian with jew and we see how hitler came so easily to power. it's all fucking bullshit politics meant to disguise and divide.

Contact your local representatives and leanr more about the anti-bullying legislation making its way through congress, fight for this as it will protect all youth.

http://www.glsen.org/cgi-.../2429.html

DesireeNevermind said:

sextonseven said:

It's natural to want to deny someone the same rights as yourself? Really?

I repeat, if you are against gays getting married in a court of law then you are against them having equal rights.

It's natural to not like something because it offends you or seems weird to you or whatever. The bad side effect is that some people take that offense/personal feeling and try and turn it into law. That part is not natural, it's plain mean and selfish. Again...what does this have to do with Tyler leaping to his death. I doubt gay marriage was on his mind when he killed himself.

As for your last statement....all politics. What about gays who are in long term relationships and don't care about or endorse gay marriage. Are they against gays having equal rights? How do you tell somebody what to support and how do you define for somebody what an equal right is?

This is bigger than gay marriage. It's about accepting gays as equals and not making gays feel so cornered that suicide becomes their only escape.

And of course gays who don't want to get married themselves are not against other gays having that right. Equal rights are rights available for all people if they so choose to exercise those rights.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

DesireeNevermind said:

It's natural to not like something because it offends you or seems weird to you or whatever. The bad side effect is that some people take that offense/personal feeling and try and turn it into law. That part is not natural, it's plain mean and selfish. Again...what does this have to do with Tyler leaping to his death. I doubt gay marriage was on his mind when he killed himself.

As for your last statement....all politics. What about gays who are in long term relationships and don't care about or endorse gay marriage. Are they against gays having equal rights? How do you tell somebody what to support and how do you define for somebody what an equal right is?

I cannot speak for other orgers but I, PERSONALLY grew up in a Christian Home, in Christian Churches and suffered incredibly to the point that yes (had I not been too afraid to die) I wished I could kill myself. I bet the majority of the gay folk who are holding Christianity's hand to the fire grew up in the same circumstances. It's not like we are making shit up and that there is no valid reason for our anger against this faith and the people in it who are either victimizing us or standing on the sidelines doing nothing while their brethren do.

Well im not accusing your of making shit up so don't even put that crap on me (not saying that was your intent but you are responding to my post).

I'm saying LOUDLY AND CLEARLY people need to focus and realize the severity of bullying and harassment and that it comes from all sources not just christianity or white people or who ever the proverbial big bad wolf is AND that kids from all walks of life suffer. To put the blame solely on christianity is both wrong and does nothing but perpetuate bullying and harassment and discrimination no matter what form it takes and even ignores all the kids who are also christian and get harassed and bullied for things that have nothing to do with their faith.

Anyone who thinks bullying and discrimination were somehow invented by christians are just plain delusional and historically ignorant.

Vendetta1 said:

DesireeNevermind said:

It's memebers? That would imply that there is some single, big, unilateral christian church that every Chrisitan on the planet attends. Such a place doesn't exist. You have christians sects that don't acknowledge and agree with other chrisitan sects. Do Baptists fall in line with Mormons? Probably not. Do Mormons fall in line with Greek Orthodox? Probably not. Do Catholics fall in line with Jews for Jesus (hybrid of judaism & christianity)? Probably not. Do any of those fall in line with other faiths and their many sects? Likely not.

You want to see christians come together to speak out against hatred against gays? How do you know you haven't seen this already? Tyler's classmates held a candle light vigil for him and spoke about the tragic loss. Did anybody do a pole to see how many were Christian. Tyler's parents spoke once and thanked the outpouring of support they've received. Did anybody do a pole to see how many of those people were Christian?

Does anyone even bother to check out the numerous gay friendly christian churches that exist? United Church of Christ comes to mind and i think they have several churches and I think the one in long beach was among the first to perform gay weddings when it was legal in Cali - but heck folk need to get to googling.

I agree organized religion can go fuck itself. Then again...organized anything can go fuck itself IMHO. The more organized a thing becomes...the more corrupt and self-serving that thing becomes.

Members of the Christian faith. I didn't think I would need to say that since we keep talking about Christians.

And I am well aware of gay friendly Christian churches.

And no, no one took a poll to see who is Christian and who is not but what I can tell you is that I have not seen any group of Christians come out and condemn the hatred against gays since these deaths have started occuring.

UCC did and nobody paid attention to them. Perhaps the media is to blame. They even address how Tyler was failed on their website and they mentioned the other kids that had committed suicide. I also think they are one of the many backers of the safe schools legislation.

DesireeNevermind said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I cannot speak for other orgers but I, PERSONALLY grew up in a Christian Home, in Christian Churches and suffered incredibly to the point that yes (had I not been too afraid to die) I wished I could kill myself. I bet the majority of the gay folk who are holding Christianity's hand to the fire grew up in the same circumstances. It's not like we are making shit up and that there is no valid reason for our anger against this faith and the people in it who are either victimizing us or standing on the sidelines doing nothing while their brethren do.

Well im not accusing your of making shit up so don't even put that crap on me (not saying that was your intent but you are responding to my post).

I'm saying LOUDLY AND CLEARLY people need to focus and realize the severity of bullying and harassment and that it comes from all sources not just christianity or white people or who ever the proverbial big bad wolf is AND that kids from all walks of life suffer. To put the blame solely on christianity is both wrong and does nothing but perpetuate bullying and harassment and discrimination no matter what form it takes and even ignores all the kids who are also christian and get harassed and bullied for things that have nothing to do with their faith.

Anyone who thinks bullying and discrimination were somehow invented by christians are just plain delusional and historically ignorant.

And yet One of 2 major political parties has staked it's political survival on scapegoating gays. This party happens to be comprised of "Christians" for the most part and dominates and entire region of this country known as the BIBLE BELT. And yet we are supposed to believe it's not related?

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

DesireeNevermind said:

Well im not accusing your of making shit up so don't even put that crap on me (not saying that was your intent but you are responding to my post).

I'm saying LOUDLY AND CLEARLY people need to focus and realize the severity of bullying and harassment and that it comes from all sources not just christianity or white people or who ever the proverbial big bad wolf is AND that kids from all walks of life suffer. To put the blame solely on christianity is both wrong and does nothing but perpetuate bullying and harassment and discrimination no matter what form it takes and even ignores all the kids who are also christian and get harassed and bullied for things that have nothing to do with their faith.

Anyone who thinks bullying and discrimination were somehow invented by christians are just plain delusional and historically ignorant.

And yet One of 2 major political parties has staked it's political survival on scapegoating gays. This party happens to be comprised of "Christians" for the most part and dominates and entire region of this country known as the BIBLE BELT. And yet we are supposed to believe it's not related?

ARe you fuckin' kidding me? Republicans staking their political survival on scapegoating gays? So um...they never have a whim about um let's say....illegal immigrants, islamo fascists/islamic terrorists, abortion, obama the socialist muslim etc.

Come on Supa....I'm no fan of the republican party but keep it 100, they've got a whole lot of stuff to stake their political survival on.

DesireeNevermind said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

And yet One of 2 major political parties has staked it's political survival on scapegoating gays. This party happens to be comprised of "Christians" for the most part and dominates and entire region of this country known as the BIBLE BELT. And yet we are supposed to believe it's not related?

ARe you fuckin' kidding me? Republicans staking their political survival on scapegoating gays? So um...they never have a whim about um let's say....illegal immigrants, islamo fascists/islamic terrorists, abortion, obama the socialist muslim etc.

Come on Supa....I'm no fan of the republican party but keep it 100, they've got a whole lot of stuff to stake their political survival on.

Of course, but you hear us being scapegoated CONSTANTLY. They just have the ability to scapegoat others at the same time

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

DesireeNevermind said:

ARe you fuckin' kidding me? Republicans staking their political survival on scapegoating gays? So um...they never have a whim about um let's say....illegal immigrants, islamo fascists/islamic terrorists, abortion, obama the socialist muslim etc.

Come on Supa....I'm no fan of the republican party but keep it 100, they've got a whole lot of stuff to stake their political survival on.

Of course, but you hear us being scapegoated CONSTANTLY. They just have the ability to scapegoat others at the same time

I hear them scapegoating on everybody constantly...they seem to have their favorites come every election though. Perhaps they switch it up depending on who's running for what office in what state. You have to feel sorry for them to a certain degree....folk who will say/do anything to gain political power are just plain pathetic to the core. Whatever happened to making the nation a better place for everybody?

^ I need to modify that slightly. Not all republicans are pathetic to the core. There are some good ones somewhere....

I don't trust politrickans either. I'm sure there's good people on both sides but most of them (in both parties) are crooked. Along with religion, they're another form of society I hate.

DesireeNevermind said:

Whatever happened to making the nation a better place for everybody?

The people who were willing to do just that were shot and killed because that's exactly what they feared.

This is a lesson and a test for LGBT people, too. It's easy to jump on the bandwagon asking for these kids' heads, but it's much more complicated than that. One kid is dead - but it doesn't have to be three. Does that mean that Ravi and Wei should escape without any restitution whatsoever? Hell no - they should be expelled from Rutgers immediately. But we do need to be compassionate enough to allow for and determine a viable restitution. Nothing is going to bring Tyler Clementi back, but we also have to be the standard of compassion that we want to see in others in order to prevent even more damage than what has already occurred.

UptownCitizen said:

This is a lesson and a test for LGBT people, too. It's easy to jump on the bandwagon asking for these kids' heads, but it's much more complicated than that. One kid is dead - but it doesn't have to be three. Does that mean that Ravi and Wei should escape without any restitution whatsoever? Hell no - they should be expelled from Rutgers immediately. But we do need to be compassionate enough to allow for and determine a viable restitution. Nothing is going to bring Tyler Clementi back, but we also have to be the standard of compassion that we want to see in others in order to prevent even more damage than what has already occurred.

Have the facts been made clear in this case?

It seems like Wei just let the other guy use the computer... Should someone be held guilty for what someone else does on his computer?

crazydoctor said:

Have the facts been made clear in this case?

It seems like Wei just let the other guy use the computer... Should someone be held guilty for what someone else does on his computer?

That's what I thought at first, too ... but if that were the case, why hasn't she (or her lawyer) just said something like "Look - I just let this guy use my computer. I had no idea that he would use it for something like that." and just nipped her role in this in the bud instead of remaining silent?