deadmansbones said:

I very rarely post over here anymore, but I was curious about what you all had to say about this incident, and apparently there have been 4 others all concerning young men and their sexuality?

In my experience... young men and men are more prone to suicide in general. It seems young men commit suicide as a sort of impulse, or course I'm talking about those without a history of depression. I used to to teach high school, and I had a student who committed suicide over breaking up with his girlfriend. He got drunk and shot himself. Then there were two former students who also committed suicide.. one by hanging and one by jumping off the roof of his house over breaking-up with a girl.. then the other had a drug problem. Then there was another student I knew vaguely with a history of depression who drowned himself.. From what I understand his suicide was more planned-out. I taught for 10 years, and I'm not aware of any female students committing suicide.. not to say it doesn't happen, of course, but I just don't think women commit suicide as often as men.

I also think this sort of relates to the dynamic of on-campus shootings and other sort of suicide missions where males tend to take people with them. I mean... how many females have done this--even with suicide bombers? It's just not as common for females even though statistically, females suffer more from depression than men, it's men who tend to take their lives more often.. and then some taking the lives of others, too.

I do think "bullying" is a problem in schools because it's a problem in American culture. Adults bully each other, condoning their kids actions or looking the other way when it suits them. That's one of the reasons I left teaching--not so much because of the kids being bullies because some of them don't know any better, but because the "system" sort of allows it. The final straw for me came when these "rich" kids were taunting this special needs girl with a history of depression. I walked up to them, and told them to cut it out--telling them they knew better... and told the girl to get back to class--or content mastery. Then I told him an administrator about it, and his response to me was that she "was probably off her meds."

This whole incident happened right after Columbine. One would think administrators would be hyper-vigilant.. but no.. nothing had changed at all. The administrator didn't reprimand the "rich and popular" kids at all was all too quick to make some assinine quip about a special-needs student. I couldn't believe it, particularly considering the climate at the time. Nothing had changed at all, and still hasn't from my observation.

I don't know exactly what has happened... what has "turned-off" but it just seems like society isn't compassionate or tolerant much less kids. I don't really know what is going on.. I don't know if we've gotten too competitive.. I don't know.. But it's very sad, and scary actually.

Anyway, this boy committing suicide obviously did it because he couldn't see any way out in the moment. That's what happens to A LOT with young men in the moment. My question is what on earth possessed the other two student to do film him in the first place? It might be true these two students involved would have done the same thing with a heterosexual girl or guy, but it's still...disgusting and illegal obviously. It may have been just some dumb-ass stunt. And yeah, the response from the victims would probably be different. But I just think this boy couldn't see the forest for the trees in the moment. It was just a moment in time where he couldn't see a way out and acted upon it.

It's very sad..

If you are the get away driver in a bank robbery and someone in the bank gets shot and killed, you are still tried for first degree murder. No one believes you planned or intended that someone was killed, but you engaged in an act that you knew or should have known has the potential to harm. If you are the get away driver in a bank robbery and someone in the bank gets shot and killed, you are still tried for first degree murder. No one believes you planned or intended that someone was killed, but you engaged in an act that you knew or should have known has the potential to harm.

I think one would have to look at the facts of a specific case as far as the sentencing phase...but for sure there are certain crimes automatically qualifying for 1st degree as opposed to manslaughter..

I'm wondering exactly how this all fits in because the "perpetrators" did not directly "kill" this boy as part of a crime in progress. In other words a similar scenario would be more similar to victims of a robbery choosing to commit suicide due to emotional distress as a result of being victimized. I don't think this act would qualify as first degree murder. Unfortunately, this boy chose to take his own life. I don't think this would qualify as murder in the first degree. There is a possibility if this boy had been harassed repeatedly then there might be an argument for manslaughter??

But it doesn't appear this boy had been harassed as far as we know right now. As far as we know, this was a single event...with a horrible outcome..

We shall see how everything plays-out.

[Edited 10/2/10 5:29am]

Thank you for posting. I am not contending this was first degree murder. I see it as negligent manslaughter.

In the robber scenario the charge would be first degree murder. That wouldn't be determined at the sentencing phase. I used that example because in the commission of a crime with multiple participants they ALL would be tried for first degree murder if someone were killed even if they did not witness it, were unaware of it or even tried to prevent it.

I think the law is lagging, as the article I posted pointed out.

They won't be charged with negligent manslaughter but I don't believe they have no culpability for this man's suicide. "But for" their actions, would he have committed suicide? That the causation standard for negligence.

deadmansbones said:

Efan said:

This is exactly the part that I agree with. Throw the book at him for invading his privacy and posting it online. It's the additional part--the hate crime aspect and the outing--that I can't rush to judgment on.

Yeah...

If this boy had been harassed repeatedly TO HIS FACE, I doubt very seriously if he would have brought home a date. I don't think he would have trusted his roommate enough to bring home a date.

HOWEVER, the boy apparently didn't have any idea what had been going on behind his back. It seems to me this was the first overt incident. Right now it appears, the roomate may have done the same thing to a heterosexual guy bringing home a date. The result may have been different because I wonder in that case if the guy victim would have been upset.. as the girl being filmed. As a female I would have pissed enough to press charges, but I wonder if a heterosexual guy would have pressed charges on his buddy for taping him? But I would imagine "the date" would not have been so forgiving.

So not only was this boy a "victim" of a cyber crime, but his date was also a victim, right? I would imagine his date was on-film, too, and he didn't commit suicide? Was his face covered somehow? Was it a set-up of some sort?? It could have been a set-up in the sense the "date" was in on the whole thing. That's always a possibility.

I just think it's going to be a very fine line to prove "manslaughter" based upon what we know now. But there is a possibility if the boy was set-up as a fool--if kids were conspiring behind his back to set him up for a fall--particularly if "the date" was involved... then those are extreme circumstances beyond just a random act as a horrible prank.

I wonder about the other victim... "the date"?

So do I.

Efan said:

SUPRMAN said:

This is exactly the part that I agree with. Throw the book at him for invading his privacy and posting it online. It's the additional part--the hate crime aspect and the outing--that I can't rush to judgment on.

I'm certain some sort of charges will come from the illegal taping. As for posting the tape on line and the comments (negative) about said video by the perpetrator may constitute a hate crime. The comments may bring insight to the motive behind the taping and posting of video on line, thus a hate crime (but that's a big maybe).

At least I' hoping that everyone reading this thread is in agreement that there should be punishment and that is should not be light. I think at this point we're probably discussing/debating technicalities and such right?

Thank you for posting. I am not contending this was first degree murder. I see it as negligent manslaughter.

In the robber scenario the charge would be first degree murder. That wouldn't be determined at the sentencing phase. I used that example because in the commission of a crime with multiple participants they ALL would be tried for first degree murder if someone were killed even if they did not witness it, were unaware of it or even tried to prevent it.

I think the law is lagging, as the article I posted pointed out.

They won't be charged with negligent manslaughter but I don't believe they have no culpability for this man's suicide. "But for" their actions, would he have committed suicide? That the causation standard for negligence.

You're welcome...

Well... I understand your point.. For me... it all depends upon the circumstances. And from what I've read.. by all accounts the students who did this weren't in the habit of of harassing gays. I think this may have been... a dumb-ass prank maybe... made more enticing because the boyWAS gay. I mean... as a I said... taping heterosexual sex may have been boring.. you know what I"m sayin?? This was more.. risque in a sense. From what I can tell, it may have been, "Ooo my gay roommate is bringing a guy home, let's see what he does..." The students taping him were only 18, too, right?

The mindset is just so juvenile.. but I can so see those two thinking "gay sex" let's see what he does..and then broadcasting it everywhere... I don't think this was done it malice as in they wanted to "hurt" him. I don't think they were thinking of "hurting" him. I might be wrong.. but I have this feeling it was more like "gay sex"... I'm just sayin... I can "see" kids doing such a dumbass thing.

As far as the victim, the thing is this event may have not caused his suicide, per se. It may have been a trust being broken? Perhaps he trusted his roommate.. as a friend. So it may have not been the "event" itself but the fact the boy was crushed emotionally somebody would do that to him. It's the way he responded to the event itself--afraid of ramifications possibly? Maybe it could have been about how people in his family would responded? We don't really know his family dynamics.. The fear of their response..not the event itself may have caused him to act on impulse... It may have been ALL of it... just everything plus other pressures related to being freshman at college. It's hard being a freshman at college as I recall.. It's hard to find one's niche.

I just think the dynamics of this whole situation are very complex.

The thing is though... the two students didn't have any clue this boy would commit suicide, do ya think? I can't imagine what the hell they were thinking regarding the legality of the whole thing much less the ramifications involved at the university.. really c'mon! How stupid can they be? Pretty damn stupid to think they we would even get away with something like this. But for sure, I do not think they had a clue this boy would kill himself over it...

Can you imagine how THEY must feel now?? I wouldn't be surprised if they were also suicidal at this point. It wouldn't surprise me at all... the guilt they must be experiencing.. Can you imagine? And then to be facing a trial, prison... all of this.. They probably think they deserve whatever is coming to them. They probably feel just horrible about it.. I HOPE they feel horrible about it..

To me.. it's a tragedy all the way around...

[Edited 10/2/10 10:08am]

To further clarify, when you point a gun at somebody without checking to see whether or not it's loaded, and then pull the trigger, killing a the person in your sites, then yeah... that's negligence. I mean...pointing a gun at someone is dangerous. Driving a car too fast is negligence. Drinking and driving is negligence. Forcing kids to drink too much alcohol during a hazing process is negligence. It's definitely putting another person at risk physically.

But the kids posting their video...this young man killing himself wasn't necessarily in their mindset.. unless for some reason they had malice towards him... like they were trying to hurt him emotionally. It just seems like right now, there is no evidence these students were out to "hurt" him.. or break him emotionally. There doesn't seem to be any evidence they had it in for "gays" in general.

Right now, it just looks like some dumb-ass prank that backfired. Hey, a lot of so-called "jokes" backfire or go too far. I just don't think the students who did this "thought" about what they were doing how HE might feel about it which really was the most important thing of all..

[Edited 10/2/10 10:28am]

I do care about how these two must feel knowing that they contributed to this guy's death, but I care more about the fact that this guy is dead and that their behavior could ever be seen as 'normal' ...

UptownCitizen said:

I do care about how these two must feel knowing that they contributed to this guy's death, but I care more about the fact that this guy is dead and that their behavior could ever be seen as 'normal' ...

It's not normal. It's a lack of respect and empathy. The fact they didn't take his feelings into account--the inability to empathize is not normal in my opinion. But it happens all the time more and more. It's like we as a culture have lost the ability to empathize. It wouldn't have been normal if they had taped and broadcasted a heterosexual couple having sex. Why do something like that? It's illegal and wrong, period. Why would a "normal" person do something knowingly illegal? And even if it weren't illegal, why would a normal person do something ethically wrong, but yet it happens... a lot.

The thing is I'm not sure lacking empathy is necessarily negligent. I don't think these students considered he might commit suicide. Now.. if they harassed the boy repeatedly--which they may have because we don't know at this point.. then yeah.. I'd say the boy committing suicide was in the realm of possibility. Or... if they had conspired against the boy behind his back.. pretending to befriend him, yet plotting to hurt him all along, then yeah... they should have considered he might respond in this way.

Regardless, it still was illegal. It still was ethically wrong. However, I'm not sure they had any clue he'd kill himself even though it happens. My goodness, it happens a lot. It just that people...adults and kids both... I dunno. We've just lost the ability to empathize.. or we just don't care enough.

I don't really know...

[Edited 10/2/10 10:56am]

Raymond Chase, 19 Year Old Gay Male Is 5th Suicide In Last 3 Weeks

19 Year old Raymond Chase Commits Suicide

What’s with all the young gay males committing suicide in the last few weeks? Is it that support systems at colleges in America are breaking down or is it all just a coincidence? It is being reported that Wednesday, September 29th, 19 year old Raymond Chase committed suicide via a hanging in his dorm room. The Sophomore at Johnson & Wales seemed happy, but clearly there was more going on inside than he showed outside.

Yesterday, the Vice President of Johnson & Wales, Ronald Martel emailed all students the following message, “Today I contact you with the deeply sad news of the passing of Raymond Chase, sophomore, 19, culinary arts major. The campus community is mourning the loss of this vibrant young man who leaves many JWU friends and teachers, and a loving family of Monticello, New York. Funeral arrangements are not available at this time. As we obtain more information that can be shared, we will do so. Ray’s JWU friends and the university are planning a memorial service for the campus community. Those details will be forthcoming”.

Johnson & Wales University is fairly large with over 16,000 enrolled students. it is located in Providence Rhode Island, and was founded in 1914 as a business school. Today the university has programs for business, culinary, equine management, hospitality, education, and technology.

Does something need to be done in America to set up support groups for not only young homosexual men, but for those youngsters looking for people to talk to, someone to air their daily frustrations about life to? Our hearts go out to the family of Raymond Chase, as well as the other 4 young men who took their own lives in the month of September

People just have no respect for people's privacy that they would do that and this would force someone to end it all. People of all orientations need to get support or otherwise this will continue. It's sad.

RIP

banks said:

Raymond Chase, 19 Year Old Gay Male Is 5th Suicide In Last 3 Weeks

19 Year old Raymond Chase Commits Suicide

What’s with all the young gay males committing suicide in the last few weeks? Is it that support systems at colleges in America are breaking down or is it all just a coincidence? It is being reported that Wednesday, September 29th, 19 year old Raymond Chase committed suicide via a hanging in his dorm room. The Sophomore at Johnson & Wales seemed happy, but clearly there was more going on inside than he showed outside.

Yesterday, the Vice President of Johnson & Wales, Ronald Martel emailed all students the following message, “Today I contact you with the deeply sad news of the passing of Raymond Chase, sophomore, 19, culinary arts major. The campus community is mourning the loss of this vibrant young man who leaves many JWU friends and teachers, and a loving family of Monticello, New York. Funeral arrangements are not available at this time. As we obtain more information that can be shared, we will do so. Ray’s JWU friends and the university are planning a memorial service for the campus community. Those details will be forthcoming”.

Johnson & Wales University is fairly large with over 16,000 enrolled students. it is located in Providence Rhode Island, and was founded in 1914 as a business school. Today the university has programs for business, culinary, equine management, hospitality, education, and technology.

Does something need to be done in America to set up support groups for not only young homosexual men, but for those youngsters looking for people to talk to, someone to air their daily frustrations about life to? Our hearts go out to the family of Raymond Chase, as well as the other 4 young men who took their own lives in the month of September

This just makes me soooo sad.

=0P

These students need a fall equivalent of "Spring Break"!

Oh yeah can I also say this to those who ridicule folks because of their orientations?

FUCK SOCIETY AND ITS CONFORMITY.

That's all.

johnart said:

At least I' hoping that everyone reading this thread is in agreement that there should be punishment and that is should not be light. I think at this point we're probably discussing/debating technicalities and such right?

You are absolutely right John.

Unless there is more to this case than what's been reported, the Rutgers students charged with invasion of privacy will stand. This isn't a case of manslaughter of any degree.

I am guessing the people behind this actually feel awful about the suicide, and it's just a case of short-sightedness. Not a lack of empathy, but not really thought out.

TD3 said:

johnart said:

At least I' hoping that everyone reading this thread is in agreement that there should be punishment and that is should not be light. I think at this point we're probably discussing/debating technicalities and such right?

You are absolutely right John.

Unless there is more to this case than what's been reported, the Rutgers students charged with invasion of privacy will stand. This isn't a case of manslaughter of any degree.

And it would be humiliating to any orientation.

TD3 said:

johnart said:

At least I' hoping that everyone reading this thread is in agreement that there should be punishment and that is should not be light. I think at this point we're probably discussing/debating technicalities and such right?

You are absolutely right John.

Unless there is more to this case than what's been reported, the Rutgers students charged with invasion of privacy will stand. This isn't a case of manslaughter of any degree.

See post # 85

SUPRMAN said:

TD3 said:

You are absolutely right John.

Unless there is more to this case than what's been reported, the Rutgers students charged with invasion of privacy will stand. This isn't a case of manslaughter of any degree.

See post # 85

Thanks Sup I wasn't aware of the CNN article.

I found CNN article incomplete, somewhat misleading, and simplistic. That's why our legal system has possible penalties vary with the degree of offense. The two cases noted as examples . . . the charges, the legalities, the motives, and the outcomes were and are different.

If you want go into those differences we can, but the Lori Drew case isn't anywhere close to what is alleged to have happened in the Tyler Clementi case. As I said before, if the circumstances of the charges stand as is, Dharun Ravi and Molly Wei should be charged with two count of invasion of privacy. If these charges can be proven, should the judge take into consideration the cause and effect and hand down the maximum? Should Rutgers University expell them? Yes. Mr. Ravi and Ms. Wei actions were amoral, egregious, evil, and ruthless but Mr. Clementi death was caused by his own hand. Mr. Ravi and Ms. Wie aren't legally responsible for Clementi committing suicide. We can debate their culpability on moral or ethical grounds but we can't legally legislate or mandate all civility.

If there's a need to legally stiffen the penalties for cyberstalking, stalking, harassment, and invasion of privacy fine. We should be wary of knee jerk reactions of enacting laws "thinking one shoe fits all"; three strikes laws and mandatory sentencing guidelines should've taught use something.

[Edited 10/4/10 5:59am]

Timmy84 said:

Oh yeah can I also say this to those who ridicule folks because of their orientations?

FUCK SOCIETY AND ITS CONFORMITY.

That's all.

And to quote, the man said it years ago: "Am I black or white? Am I straight or gay? Controversy"

It's so sad to think that this was an issue then and is STILL an issue causing controversy

RIP Tyler.

Great response to all of this from Dan Savage. It's a response to a letter he recieved:

The letter:

[Edited 10/4/10 11:43am]

^Dan Savage is kicking ass and taking names over this.

So, so very sad.

In this day and age, for this to happen is terrible.

I do want to plug that CNN AC360 is doing a week long story on Bullying in general starting tonight at 10 EST. Anderson seems really invested in this issue.

Hero0101 said:

Great response to all of this from Dan Savage. It's a response to a letter he recieved:

The letter:

I was listening to the radio yesterday morning and I heard your interview with Beth McDonald. I have been thinking about it a lot since then and I feel compelled to share my thoughts with you. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bulling. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man that took his own life after being humiliated by people who should have known better. I think you need to be aware of your own prejuduces and how they might play into your thinking. At best I think your comments were hypocritical.

If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preferance, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man and I know for a fact that is true of many other people who disagree with your viewpoint. Please be aware that your words are powerful and people are listening to you.

To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people. I have never in my life know someone who loved the Lord who wished ill will on other people and certainly not death "so that [we] can perpetuate [our own] agenda."

Please consider your viewpoint and please be more careful with your words in the future.

L. R.

His response:

I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.

No, wait. I'm not. Gay kids are dying. So let's try to keep things in perspective: fuck your feelings.

A question: do you support atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All legal, of course, and there's no Christian movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or to people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?

Being told that they're sinful and that their love offends God, and being told that their relationships are unworthy of the civil right that is marriage (not the religious rite that some people use to solemnize their civil marriages), can eat away at the souls of gay kids. It makes them feel like they're not valued, that their lives are not worth living. And if one of your children is unlucky enough to be gay, the anti-gay bigotry you espouse makes them doubt that their parents truly love them—to say nothing of the gentle "savior" they've heard so much about, a gentle and loving father who will condemn them to hell for the sin of falling in love with the wrong person.

The children of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or at your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. You may only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, but your children have the option of attacking actual real gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.

Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not "sinners." Real gay and lesbian children.

The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from lips of "faithful Christians," and the lies that spew forth from the pulpit of the churches "faithful Christians" drag their kids to on Sundays, give your straight children a license to verbally abuse, humiliate and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your straight children—having listened to mom and dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to the family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry himself to sleep—feel justified in physically attacking the gay and lesbian children they encounter in their schools. You don't have to explicitly "encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate" gay kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It's here, it's clear, and we can see the fruits of it.

Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words.

Did that hurt to hear? Good. But hearing it couldn't have hurt nearly as much as what the boys in the photo above had to listen to—day-in, day-out, for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the images of the hateful and false "followers of Christ" they call "mom and dad."

P.S.: The religious right points to the suicide rate among gay teenagers—which the religious right works so hard to drive up (see above)—as evidence that the gay lifestyle is destructive. It's like intentionally running someone down with your car and then claiming that it isn't safe to walk the streets.

Which is why I argued that every gay teen suicide is a victory for the religious right. Because, you see, your side does use those suicides to "perpetuate [your] agenda." Tony Perkins and all those other oddly effete defenders of "Chrisitian values" and "traditional marriage" will point to this recent spate of gay teen suicides to argue against gay marriage, anti-bullying programs, against allowing gay people to serve in the military—basically, they'll gleefully use these tragedies to justify what they like to call the "Christian, pro-family agenda."

But right now Tony Perkins is being strangely silent. Why is that? Could it be that even Tony Perkins has a conscience? Nah, couldn't be that. He must be away on vacation.

=0P

[Edited 10/4/10 11:43am]

How innocent Christians portray themselves. It's sickening. Dans response is SO. SPOT. ON. Before we are gay adults, we are gay children and the religious right is the one creating the environment in which gay youth are pushed to the edge of despair. And he's right, they cite suicide as proof of the destructive nature of being gay but it's never asked why the kids are killing themselves in the first place:

BECAUSE OF THE HATRED THAT COMES FROM THE CHURCH, PERPETUATED IN THIS SOCIETY BECAUSE OTHER SO CALLED "LOVING" CHRISTIANS DON'T EVER QUESTION THE SOCIETY THEY LIVE IN BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE MINORITY.

Hero0101 said:

Great response to all of this from Dan Savage. It's a response to a letter he recieved:

The letter:

I was listening to the radio yesterday morning and I heard your interview with Beth McDonald. I have been thinking about it a lot since then and I feel compelled to share my thoughts with you. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bulling. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man that took his own life after being humiliated by people who should have known better. I think you need to be aware of your own prejuduces and how they might play into your thinking. At best I think your comments were hypocritical.

If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preferance, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man and I know for a fact that is true of many other people who disagree with your viewpoint. Please be aware that your words are powerful and people are listening to you.

To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people. I have never in my life know someone who loved the Lord who wished ill will on other people and certainly not death "so that [we] can perpetuate [our own] agenda."

Please consider your viewpoint and please be more careful with your words in the future.

L. R.

His response:

I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.

No, wait. I'm not. Gay kids are dying. So let's try to keep things in perspective: fuck your feelings.

A question: do you support atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All legal, of course, and there's no Christian movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or to people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?

Being told that they're sinful and that their love offends God, and being told that their relationships are unworthy of the civil right that is marriage (not the religious rite that some people use to solemnize their civil marriages), can eat away at the souls of gay kids. It makes them feel like they're not valued, that their lives are not worth living. And if one of your children is unlucky enough to be gay, the anti-gay bigotry you espouse makes them doubt that their parents truly love them—to say nothing of the gentle "savior" they've heard so much about, a gentle and loving father who will condemn them to hell for the sin of falling in love with the wrong person.

The children of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or at your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. You may only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, but your children have the option of attacking actual real gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.

Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not "sinners." Real gay and lesbian children.

The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from lips of "faithful Christians," and the lies that spew forth from the pulpit of the churches "faithful Christians" drag their kids to on Sundays, give your straight children a license to verbally abuse, humiliate and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your straight children—having listened to mom and dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to the family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry himself to sleep—feel justified in physically attacking the gay and lesbian children they encounter in their schools. You don't have to explicitly "encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate" gay kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It's here, it's clear, and we can see the fruits of it.

Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words.

Did that hurt to hear? Good. But hearing it couldn't have hurt nearly as much as what the boys in the photo above had to listen to—day-in, day-out, for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the images of the hateful and false "followers of Christ" they call "mom and dad."

P.S.: The religious right points to the suicide rate among gay teenagers—which the religious right works so hard to drive up (see above)—as evidence that the gay lifestyle is destructive. It's like intentionally running someone down with your car and then claiming that it isn't safe to walk the streets.

Which is why I argued that every gay teen suicide is a victory for the religious right. Because, you see, your side does use those suicides to "perpetuate [your] agenda." Tony Perkins and all those other oddly effete defenders of "Chrisitian values" and "traditional marriage" will point to this recent spate of gay teen suicides to argue against gay marriage, anti-bullying programs, against allowing gay people to serve in the military—basically, they'll gleefully use these tragedies to justify what they like to call the "Christian, pro-family agenda."

But right now Tony Perkins is being strangely silent. Why is that? Could it be that even Tony Perkins has a conscience? Nah, couldn't be that. He must be away on vacation.

=0P

[Edited 10/4/10 11:43am]

You tell 'em Dan!

Hero0101 said:

Great response to all of this from Dan Savage. It's a response to a letter he recieved:

Harsh words, but it needed to be said.

I'm not particularly a fan of Dan Savage, but I generally agree with him here.

I'm not a fan of Dan, some stuff I agree with and some stuff I don't but I pose some questions...

Were the two students who secretly filmed Tyler Christian?

Did they film him and stream his privacy on the Internet in the name of Christianity?

Were all three students at a Christian church when this incident occurred?

Did Tyler leave a suicide note saying he was killing himself because he felt let down by Christianity?

THE ANSWER IS NO!

Why are people using this incident as a political stone to throw at Christians? I don't think Christianity had anything to do with what happened between these 3 people. You have two idiots who thought they were doing something funny and probably have done it to other students and now a man is dead and these two dumb asses will hopefully go to jail. Plus, last time I checked, Christians weren't the only ones who've ever had an issue with homosexuality. Lastly, what about Gay christians? If gay folk hate christianity so damn much then they are hating other gays by default. People need to realize that there are good and bad people everywhere, in every walk of life and there always have been. This isn't about religion it's about humanity's need to pick itself apart over everything from immigrant status to sexuality to religion to education to finances to race to language to the nth power. If it weren't this guy jumping off a bridge it would be some other guy or gal and for some other reason. We still have people going to their workplaces and shooting up former coworkers. It's all tied together. Society has become incrediby dysfunctional and people from all walks of life are feeling like their lives aren't worth anything which is terribly sad.

DesireeNevermind said:

I'm not a fan of Dan, some stuff I agree with and some stuff I don't but I pose some questions...

Were the two students who secretly filmed Tyler Christian?

Did they film him and stream his privacy on the Internet in the name of Christianity?

Were all three students at a Christian church when this incident occurred?

Did Tyler leave a suicide note saying he was killing himself because he felt let down by Christianity?

THE ANSWER IS NO!

Why are people using this incident as a political stone to throw at Christians? I don't think Christianity had anything to do with what happened between these 3 people. You have two idiots who thought they were doing something funny and probably have done it to other students and now a man is dead and these two dumb asses will hopefully go to jail. Plus, last time I checked, Christians weren't the only ones who've ever had an issue with homosexuality. Lastly, what about Gay christians? If gay folk hate christianity so damn much then they are hating other gays by default. People need to realize that there are good and bad people everywhere, in every walk of life and there always have been. This isn't about religion it's about humanity's need to pick itself apart over everything from immigrant status to sexuality to religion to education to finances to race to language to the nth power. If it weren't this guy jumping off a bridge it would be some other guy or gal and for some other reason. We still have people going to their workplaces and shooting up former coworkers. It's all tied together. Society has become incrediby dysfunctional and people from all walks of life are feeling like their lives aren't worth anything which is terribly sad.

PUHLEASE

PUHLEASE

PUH

LEASE!

Leave your defensiveness at the door. Christianity, particularly the American Taliban who controls and contributes to politics, bears full responsibility here. This climate and these conditions don't create themselves in a vacuum.

DesireeNevermind said:

I'm not a fan of Dan, some stuff I agree with and some stuff I don't but I pose some questions...

Were the two students who secretly filmed Tyler Christian?

Did they film him and stream his privacy on the Internet in the name of Christianity?

Were all three students at a Christian church when this incident occurred?

Did Tyler leave a suicide note saying he was killing himself because he felt let down by Christianity?

THE ANSWER IS NO!

Why are people using this incident as a political stone to throw at Christians? I don't think Christianity had anything to do with what happened between these 3 people. You have two idiots who thought they were doing something funny and probably have done it to other students and now a man is dead and these two dumb asses will hopefully go to jail. Plus, last time I checked, Christians weren't the only ones who've ever had an issue with homosexuality. Lastly, what about Gay christians? If gay folk hate christianity so damn much then they are hating other gays by default. People need to realize that there are good and bad people everywhere, in every walk of life and there always have been. This isn't about religion it's about humanity's need to pick itself apart over everything from immigrant status to sexuality to religion to education to finances to race to language to the nth power. If it weren't this guy jumping off a bridge it would be some other guy or gal and for some other reason. We still have people going to their workplaces and shooting up former coworkers. It's all tied together. Society has become incrediby dysfunctional and people from all walks of life are feeling like their lives aren't worth anything which is terribly sad.

Why throw a political stone at Christians? Because pretty much every sign I see at protests against gay rights quotes the Bible or says homosexuality is against God. If other groups besides Christians have issues with homosexuals, they need to scream a little louder and let themselves be known so they can get stoned too because Christians are hogging the spotlight.

And why do all those circumstances have to be present in order to prove that Christian teachings played a role in Tyler Clementi's suicide?