^ Damn is that tweet really from 50 Cent? What a silly thing to say. Must be another rap beef he's having.

Anyway....

We probally shouldn't judge anyone who wants to commit suicide because we never know another's pain (physical or mental illness) and some people aren't so much in pain as they are fed up with this world we live in. On the other hand....no one should be DRIVEN to commit suicide either by the cruel and juvenile actions of another. I'm not entirely convinced this kid jumped off the bridge because of the video taping but I think there were other issues and maybe other students who played a part in his decision. The taping of his private moments may have been the tip of the iceberg and besides...most sane people would not want a sex tape made of them without their knowledge and consent then have said tape released to the general public - traumatizing and humiliating for anyone. Those tards definitely need to go to prison.

DesireeNevermind said:

^ Damn is that tweet really from 50 Cent? What a silly thing to say. Must be another rap beef he's having.

He has been trying to find a "bitch" on Twitter, as well as a BJ. He was hinting that he reciprocates orally.

It's terribly sad for the silly boy and his family, but there's a disturbing clamber for retribution going on here. It cannot be proved the perpetrators actions were wilfully malicious in intent, they treated him like an object without feelings for their own amusement. Glossing over the emotions of others(even ourselves) is pretty much a base problem w/humanity.

In Trenton, Gov. Chris Christie expressed outrage over the suicide and the events preceding it, saying, "I don't know how those two folks are going to sleep at night." And a spokesman for the state's attorney general, Paula T. Dow, said her office was consulting with Middlesex County prosecutors to see if the evidence supported bringing bias charges, based on the victim's sexual orientation, that would raise the potential punishment from 5 years in prison to 10.

On Sept. 19, Mr. Ravi messaged his Twitter followers that he had set up a webcam in his room and then watched from Ms. Wei's room, adding that he saw Mr. Clementi "making out with a dude."

The postings on the gay chat site last week, reported Wednesday on the Web site Gawker, appear to show Mr. Clementi's reactions as he read Mr. Ravi's posts about the camera, and the apparent disdain for his homosexuality.

"And so I feel like it was 'look at what a fag my roommate is,' " he wrote on Sept. 21. "Other people have commented on his profile with things like 'how did you manage to go back in there?' and 'are you ok?' and the fact that the people he was with saw my making out with a guy as the scandal whereas I mean come on ... he was SPYING ON ME ... do they see something wrong with this?"

Cerebus said:

dseann said:

My point is that most Americans do give the big thumbs up to gays despite the laws of the land.

And my country is America by the way, I'm just living in Antigua right now. I am an American.

Actually, that wasn't your point just a couple posts ago. But I'm really no longer interested in discussing this. Your entitled to your opinion and I respect that fact that we were able to discuss this peacefully. But your views on what affects other peoples mental states and the extent to which even SMALL incidents can have GREAT consequences is rather unbelievable and wholey inaccurate.

Let's respectfully agree to disagree.

In my first post I did say that most attitudes if not laws, were changed about gays and I guess I don't understand why Tyler would kill himself simply because he was outed for being gay. Thanks for your patience with dealing with my opinion.

sextonseven said:

dseann said:

My point is that most Americans do give the big thumbs up to gays despite the laws of the land.

And my country is America by the way, I'm just living in Antigua right now. I am an American.

When it comes to marriage, gays get the thumbs down from most Americans.

I see that differently, in the case of Frisco the vast majority approved of the marriages but the "powers that be" didn't.

SUPRMAN said:

dseann said:

I really feel there was something else going on there. The stream might have been the catalyst.

Is that your excuse?

And if there wasn't I doubt that you'd feel any differently.

Even if it was just a catalyst it was enough.

You seem to be suggesting that no one commits suicide simply because they are gay?

You are wrong on that one . . . .

You're right, I could be wrong.

dseann said:

sextonseven said:

When it comes to marriage, gays get the thumbs down from most Americans.

I see that differently, in the case of Frisco the vast majority approved of the marriages but the "powers that be" didn't.

It wasn't the "powers that be" that voted down Proposition 8. It was the majority of voters.

So even in what is regarded as the MOST liberal of states, gay marriage cannot yet win approval.

All it would have taken was a simple majority, so I don't know how you conclude that the "vast majority" approve of gay marriage.

[Edited 10/1/10 8:10am]

SUPRMAN said:

dseann said:

I see that differently, in the case of Frisco the vast majority approved of the marriages but the "powers that be" didn't.

It wasn't the "powers that be" and voted down Proposition 8. It was the majority of voters.

So even in what is regarded as the MOST liberal of states, gay marriage cannot yet win approval.

All it would have taken was a simple majority, so I don't know how you conclude that the "vast majority" approve of gay marriage.

OK

dseann said:

Cerebus said:

Actually, that wasn't your point just a couple posts ago. But I'm really no longer interested in discussing this. Your entitled to your opinion and I respect that fact that we were able to discuss this peacefully. But your views on what affects other peoples mental states and the extent to which even SMALL incidents can have GREAT consequences is rather unbelievable and wholey inaccurate.

Let's respectfully agree to disagree.

In my first post I did say that most attitudes if not laws, were changed about gays and I guess I don't understand why Tyler would kill himself simply because he was outed for being gay. Thanks for your patience with dealing with my opinion.

Those of us who have been targetted, taunted, bullied, teased and turned into policial and social pawns understand completely. You don't have to understand but we do. I only wish he had someone he could have turned to to help him work through all his feelings on this.

I guess I don't understand why this guy committed suicide. So he was outed and people saw him kissing a guy and teased him. It's embarrassing but it's no reason to end your life. Now he'll never have a bf. Maybe he came from an ultra-religious home where his parents would shame him if he was gay? He obviously couldn't deal with the fact that people now knew he was gay. He only knew the dude that filmed him for 3 or 4 weeks and he decides to kill himself because of something this guy did? I think the poor guy had some mental problems combined with the fact that he probably didn't have any gay friends (except the one he was making out with).

I was made fun of constantly in 7th and 8th grade to the point of crying after school most days and then dreading waking up in the morning. I was made fun of for being gay, for having the worst acne in my entire grade and for living in a trailer park. It was really brutal. But I kept my head high because I knew I had better character and morals than those assholes. Their insults weren't even very cleaver or witty. I still got straight As through it all and went ont to get my bachelor's. Now I have a nice apartment and a sexy boyfriend.

It's very sad how we're treated and how it affects our mental state. Even the fact that it's illegal for me to donate blood is depressing because I could help save people. Oh well!

MidniteMagnet said:

I guess I don't understand why this guy committed suicide. So he was outed and people saw him kissing a guy and teased him. It's embarrassing but it's no reason to end your life. Now he'll never have a bf. Maybe he came from an ultra-religious home where his parents would shame him if he was gay? He obviously couldn't deal with the fact that people now knew he was gay. He only knew the dude that filmed him for 3 or 4 weeks and he decides to kill himself because of something this guy did? I think the poor guy had some mental problems combined with the fact that he probably didn't have any gay friends (except the one he was making out with).

I was made fun of constantly in 7th and 8th grade to the point of crying after school most days and then dreading waking up in the morning. I was made fun of for being gay, for having the worst acne in my entire grade and for living in a trailer park. It was really brutal. But I kept my head high because I knew I had better character and morals than those assholes. Their insults weren't even very cleaver or witty. I still got straight As through it all and went ont to get my bachelor's. Now I have a nice apartment and a sexy boyfriend.

It's very sad how we're treated and how it affects our mental state. Even the fact that it's illegal for me to donate blood is depressing because I could help save people. Oh well!

He's not you. Some people can survive (I did too against sick and twisted odds) but we shouldn't be adding judgment to this mans death.

Heard about this last night. RIP

First I'll say that I do think this was an unforgivable offense and it should not be one that goes away without consequences.

On the subject of whether someone should serve a murder-type sentence for embarassing someone who then commits suicide...I'm not so clear or sure on how I feel about that. While people can be pushed to limits and we all have different thresholds and different life experiences, I don't think we can go around life being held responsible for people's innappropriate reactions...even when these reactions are to completely awful and unnecessary actions by others. If this poor kid had turned around and killed the offender, no body would be saying that he shouldn't serve a sentence for killing a person just on the reasoning that he is from a minority group or that he was humiliated and so on. Most people would feel terribly sad and some of us might sympathize but most, I'd guess would say, he should have expressed his anger/sadness/depression/humiliation...in a different way.

When it serves our arguments we often refer to suicide as a selfish act. I'm not so sure about that either, but whether it is or not, it's an act of self.

I'm not sure what I just wrote even makes proper sense. I do hope that the dude has to serve some sort of sentence that is not just a slap on the wrist though.

Cinnie said:

Hero0101 said:

And one more thing: 50 cent tweets about this:

[img:$uid]http://towleroad.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c730253ef013487dfbe5e970c-pi[/img:$uid]

=0P

Totally out of context.

http://www.huffingtonpost...45797.html

[Edited 9/30/10 16:13pm]

Maybe... but he has a history...

http://www.fenuxe.com/201...t-suicide/

johnart said:

Heard about this last night. RIP

First I'll say that I do think this was an unforgivable offense and it should not be one that goes away without consequences.

On the subject of whether someone should serve a murder-type sentence for embarassing someone who then commits suicide...I'm not so clear or sure on how I feel about that. While people can be pushed to limits and we all have different thresholds and different life experiences, I don't think we can go around life being held responsible for people's innappropriate reactions...even when these reactions are to completely awful and unnecessary actions by others. If this poor kid had turned around and killed the offender, no body would be saying that he shouldn't serve a sentence for killing a person just on the reasoning that he is from a minority group or that he was humiliated and so on. Most people would feel terribly sad and some of us might sympathize but most, I'd guess would say, he should have expressed his anger/sadness/depression/humiliation...in a different way.

When it serves our arguments we often refer to suicide as a selfish act. I'm not so sure about that either, but whether it is or not, it's an act of self.

I'm not sure what I just wrote even makes proper sense. I do hope that the dude has to serve some sort of sentence that is not just a slap on the wrist though.

I think I agree with most of this. My main issue remains the invasion of privacy and posting it on the internet. The outing...that's tricky and a slippery slope. In general, I'm against outing--I think people should have the freedom to out themselves when and if they choose--but in reality, I've inadvertantly done it. Luckily that didn't lead to anyone harming themselves.

I'm willing to cut the roommate some slack when it comes to the outing part. I disagree with the possible addition of hate crime charges. It's the posting online that I think he should be punished for. I wouldn't go beyond that.

Efan said:

johnart said:

Heard about this last night. RIP

First I'll say that I do think this was an unforgivable offense and it should not be one that goes away without consequences.

On the subject of whether someone should serve a murder-type sentence for embarassing someone who then commits suicide...I'm not so clear or sure on how I feel about that. While people can be pushed to limits and we all have different thresholds and different life experiences, I don't think we can go around life being held responsible for people's innappropriate reactions...even when these reactions are to completely awful and unnecessary actions by others. If this poor kid had turned around and killed the offender, no body would be saying that he shouldn't serve a sentence for killing a person just on the reasoning that he is from a minority group or that he was humiliated and so on. Most people would feel terribly sad and some of us might sympathize but most, I'd guess would say, he should have expressed his anger/sadness/depression/humiliation...in a different way.

When it serves our arguments we often refer to suicide as a selfish act. I'm not so sure about that either, but whether it is or not, it's an act of self.

I'm not sure what I just wrote even makes proper sense. I do hope that the dude has to serve some sort of sentence that is not just a slap on the wrist though.

I think I agree with most of this. My main issue remains the invasion of privacy and posting it on the internet. The outing...that's tricky and a slippery slope. In general, I'm against outing--I think people should have the freedom to out themselves when and if they choose--but in reality, I've inadvertantly done it. Luckily that didn't lead to anyone harming themselves.

I'm willing to cut the roommate some slack when it comes to the outing part. I disagree with the possible addition of hate crime charges. It's the posting online that I think he should be punished for. I wouldn't go beyond that.

I'm there with you on your points. It's tricky (emotions vs. what's right/wrong and how someone should be punished). Terribly sad.

Efan said:

johnart said:

Heard about this last night. RIP

First I'll say that I do think this was an unforgivable offense and it should not be one that goes away without consequences.

On the subject of whether someone should serve a murder-type sentence for embarassing someone who then commits suicide...I'm not so clear or sure on how I feel about that. While people can be pushed to limits and we all have different thresholds and different life experiences, I don't think we can go around life being held responsible for people's innappropriate reactions...even when these reactions are to completely awful and unnecessary actions by others. If this poor kid had turned around and killed the offender, no body would be saying that he shouldn't serve a sentence for killing a person just on the reasoning that he is from a minority group or that he was humiliated and so on. Most people would feel terribly sad and some of us might sympathize but most, I'd guess would say, he should have expressed his anger/sadness/depression/humiliation...in a different way.

When it serves our arguments we often refer to suicide as a selfish act. I'm not so sure about that either, but whether it is or not, it's an act of self.

I'm not sure what I just wrote even makes proper sense. I do hope that the dude has to serve some sort of sentence that is not just a slap on the wrist though.

I think I agree with most of this. My main issue remains the invasion of privacy and posting it on the internet. The outing...that's tricky and a slippery slope. In general, I'm against outing--I think people should have the freedom to out themselves when and if they choose--but in reality, I've inadvertantly done it. Luckily that didn't lead to anyone harming themselves.

I'm willing to cut the roommate some slack when it comes to the outing part. I disagree with the possible addition of hate crime charges. It's the posting online that I think he should be punished for. I wouldn't go beyond that.

WOW

I disagree.

If you are the get away driver in a bank robbery and someone in the bank gets shot and killed, you are still tried for first degree murder. No one believes you planned or intended that someone was killed, but you engaged in an act that you knew or should have known has the potential to harm.

Same here.

They didn't have to intend a bad result to know or should have known that a bad result could occur.

Have people who have been outed killed themselves before? Yes.

Have people who have had video's of themselves posted for behavior they felt would shame and embarrass their families killed themselves before? Yes.

Have people been hounded, harassed and bullied as a result of videos of them being posted online by others without their consent? Yes.

Why would they not know such actions were likely illegal and likely to lead to a bad result?

I see it as negligent manslaughter.

Please stop by if you can. prince.org in da hizzy!

SUPRMAN said:

Efan said:

I think I agree with most of this. My main issue remains the invasion of privacy and posting it on the internet. The outing...that's tricky and a slippery slope. In general, I'm against outing--I think people should have the freedom to out themselves when and if they choose--but in reality, I've inadvertantly done it. Luckily that didn't lead to anyone harming themselves.

I'm willing to cut the roommate some slack when it comes to the outing part. I disagree with the possible addition of hate crime charges. It's the posting online that I think he should be punished for. I wouldn't go beyond that.

WOW

I disagree.

If you are the get away driver in a bank robbery and someone in the bank gets shot and killed, you are still tried for first degree murder. No one believes you planned or intended that someone was killed, but you engaged in an act that you knew or should have known has the potential to harm.

Same here.

They didn't have to intend a bad result to know or should have known that a bad result could occur.

Have people who have been outed killed themselves before? Yes.

Have people who have had video's of themselves posted for behavior they felt would shame and embarrass their families killed themselves before? Yes.

Have people been hounded, harassed and bullied as a result of videos of them being posted online by others without their consent? Yes.

Why would they not know such actions were likely illegal and likely to lead to a bad result?

I see it as negligent manslaughter.

In a bank robbery, you are going into a secured building where there are guards with guns. Presumably the robbers you are driving have guns. And the police will be called, and they have guns. And then you will be driving very quickly and recklessly to get away. And, of course, you are doing something explicitly illegal.

If I agree to drive a getaway car during a robbery, presumably I would know all these things and I have either accepted them or chosen to ignore them. I can see the law's point in charging that person with the most serious crime possible.

With outing, it's far, far different. People get outed all the time and don't kill themselves. Some gay people may be offended if you think they are straight. I inadvertently outed a guy I was dating (to his very conservative mother). I didn't say it to her directly, and I certainly wasn't bullying him, but my actions did cause her to find out and it was not good for him. I felt bad about it, of course...very bad. He did not kill himself or hurt himself, and I'm very glad for that.

I don't know from the little I've read about this case if the roommate was a bully. If he was, then that's one thing. But if he just remarked to a friend something like, "Yuck, my roommate's in there making out with a dude!" I wouldn't see that he did anything wrong. All people deserve not to be harassed or bullied (or harmed or beaten, etc.), but not everyone has to be completely comfortable with homosexuality.

The roommate could have told someone, "You know, he farts in his sleep," and that could have caused the tremendous embarrassment too. If he had harmed himself over that, I wouldn't want to see the roommate prosecuted for it. How much responsibility can we be expected to have for someone else's mental state?

Efan said:

SUPRMAN said:

WOW

I disagree.

If you are the get away driver in a bank robbery and someone in the bank gets shot and killed, you are still tried for first degree murder. No one believes you planned or intended that someone was killed, but you engaged in an act that you knew or should have known has the potential to harm.

Same here.

They didn't have to intend a bad result to know or should have known that a bad result could occur.

Have people who have been outed killed themselves before? Yes.

Have people who have had video's of themselves posted for behavior they felt would shame and embarrass their families killed themselves before? Yes.

Have people been hounded, harassed and bullied as a result of videos of them being posted online by others without their consent? Yes.

Why would they not know such actions were likely illegal and likely to lead to a bad result?

I see it as negligent manslaughter.

In a bank robbery, you are going into a secured building where there are guards with guns. Presumably the robbers you are driving have guns. And the police will be called, and they have guns. And then you will be driving very quickly and recklessly to get away. And, of course, you are doing something explicitly illegal.

If I agree to drive a getaway car during a robbery, presumably I would know all these things and I have either accepted them or chosen to ignore them. I can see the law's point in charging that person with the most serious crime possible.

With outing, it's far, far different. People get outed all the time and don't kill themselves. Some gay people may be offended if you think they are straight. I inadvertently outed a guy I was dating (to his very conservative mother). I didn't say it to her directly, and I certainly wasn't bullying him, but my actions did cause her to find out and it was not good for him. I felt bad about it, of course...very bad. He did not kill himself or hurt himself, and I'm very glad for that.

I don't know from the little I've read about this case if the roommate was a bully. If he was, then that's one thing. But if he just remarked to a friend something like, "Yuck, my roommate's in there making out with a dude!" I wouldn't see that he did anything wrong. All people deserve not to be harassed or bullied (or harmed or beaten, etc.), but not everyone has to be completely comfortable with homosexuality.

The roommate could have told someone, "You know, he farts in his sleep," and that could have caused the tremendous embarrassment too. If he had harmed himself over that, I wouldn't want to see the roommate prosecuted for it. How much responsibility can we be expected to have for someone else's mental state?

In a bank robbery, as the driver, you can just be sitting outside the bank. You don't have to move the car to be charged with first degree murder for a shooting that occurs inside the bank. If one of the robbers is killed that is still first degree murder for the driver. The driver is participating is a series of actions, that result in a death, even though he has no control or direct knowledge the death occurs. They probably didn't intend for him to commit suicide but that was the direct result of their actions.

This is more that a verbal comment regarding something personal that may be, or is, embarrassing. This is a personal private guarded moment, unknowingly and unexpectedly broadcast to the world, irretrievably available to all future employers and anyone who googles him.

How much responsibility for someone else's mental state? Why not err on the side of caution? Why go out of your way to be deliberately cruel and insensitive? Again, in this situation, the result is foreseeable to a reasonable person. One doesn't have to have the specific intent. I may not intend to kill anyone but driving 70 mph down a residential street I don't need intent do I?

Enough people have committed suicide or hurt themselves and others after having videos posted that they gave no consent to and have no control over for it to be generally known that direct harms result from such actions. That's why they are culpable.

SUPRMAN said:

Efan said:

In a bank robbery, you are going into a secured building where there are guards with guns. Presumably the robbers you are driving have guns. And the police will be called, and they have guns. And then you will be driving very quickly and recklessly to get away. And, of course, you are doing something explicitly illegal.

If I agree to drive a getaway car during a robbery, presumably I would know all these things and I have either accepted them or chosen to ignore them. I can see the law's point in charging that person with the most serious crime possible.

With outing, it's far, far different. People get outed all the time and don't kill themselves. Some gay people may be offended if you think they are straight. I inadvertently outed a guy I was dating (to his very conservative mother). I didn't say it to her directly, and I certainly wasn't bullying him, but my actions did cause her to find out and it was not good for him. I felt bad about it, of course...very bad. He did not kill himself or hurt himself, and I'm very glad for that.

I don't know from the little I've read about this case if the roommate was a bully. If he was, then that's one thing. But if he just remarked to a friend something like, "Yuck, my roommate's in there making out with a dude!" I wouldn't see that he did anything wrong. All people deserve not to be harassed or bullied (or harmed or beaten, etc.), but not everyone has to be completely comfortable with homosexuality.

The roommate could have told someone, "You know, he farts in his sleep," and that could have caused the tremendous embarrassment too. If he had harmed himself over that, I wouldn't want to see the roommate prosecuted for it. How much responsibility can we be expected to have for someone else's mental state?

In a bank robbery, as the driver, you can just be sitting outside the bank. You don't have to move the car to be charged with first degree murder for a shooting that occurs inside the bank. If one of the robbers is killed that is still first degree murder for the driver. The driver is participating is a series of actions, that result in a death, even though he has no control or direct knowledge the death occurs. They probably didn't intend for him to commit suicide but that was the direct result of their actions.

This is more that a verbal comment regarding something personal that may be, or is, embarrassing. This is a personal private guarded moment, unknowingly and unexpectedly broadcast to the world, irretrievably available to all future employers and anyone who googles him.

How much responsibility for someone else's mental state? Why not err on the side of caution? Why go out of your way to be deliberately cruel and insensitive? Again, in this situation, the result is foreseeable to a reasonable person. One doesn't have to have the specific intent. I may not intend to kill anyone but driving 70 mph down a residential street I don't need intent do I?

Enough people have committed suicide or hurt themselves and others after having videos posted that they gave no consent to and have no control over for it to be generally known that direct harms result from such actions. That's why they are culpable.

I wouldn't consider the type of person who does this sort of thing to another reasonable, but why would the result be so forseeable to a reasonable person in the first place? Did the victim have a history of depression or suicide attempts that the offender knew about? If that is the case I would totally agree. Unfortunatlely people kill themselves over all sorts of things. We can't just start handing out manslaughter sentences because some people are assholes and others unstable or insecure or depressed due to opression...or maybe we can, I don't know. I know that if I were a family member I would want it to be considered manslaugter. My heart wants it to be considered manslaughter, but I just can't rationalize it as such.

[Edited 10/1/10 22:20pm]

I dont give a crap bout if this young man was depressed or whatnot, to secretly stream and twitter this guys sexual encounter is beyond mean spirited and just plain cruel. The roommate had an issue with Tyler and did this to hurt him. He wouldn't have streamed this if Tyler was getting it on with a woman cause that would just have ended up with High Fives from his fellow male students.
The roommate wanted to hurt and humilate this young man and that's the bottom line. Malice drips from this story like like blood from an open wound.

[Edited 10/1/10 22:49pm]

dseann said:

sextonseven said:

When it comes to marriage, gays get the thumbs down from most Americans.

I see that differently, in the case of Frisco the vast majority approved of the marriages but the "powers that be" didn't.

um...hello???? Frisco is WAY different than the rest of the country when it comes to attitudes toward homosexuals. And you're using it as an example to prove your point???

I live here, and I have lived in lots of other places too. To be blunt, your opinions reek of ignorance. The world is not simply how you wish it to be and prefer it to be. You can have opinions but there is such a thing as reality, and you are out of touch with the reality of gay youth in America today. Young people, especially, are not likely to share your tolerant and nuanced views. Kids are often overflowing with insecurities and find some relief in tormenting a scapegoat or two.

BTW, nobody in San Francisco EVER refers to the city as "Frisco".

dseann said:

SUPRMAN said:

It wasn't the "powers that be" and voted down Proposition 8. It was the majority of voters.

So even in what is regarded as the MOST liberal of states, gay marriage cannot yet win approval.

All it would have taken was a simple majority, so I don't know how you conclude that the "vast majority" approve of gay marriage.

OK

I thought dseann was referring to the City of San Francisco, which seemed like a really farfetched example to use for the rest of the country. It was "powers that be" that gave gays the right to marry. An act of civil disobedience by Mayor Gavin Newsom, where the courts eventually backed him up. When the issue was brought to the voters by proposition, the voters voted it down. On August 4, 2010, Judge Walker overturned the proposition. It is now under a stay, pending appeal.

Historically, civil rights [and attitudes] have never advanced through majority of opinion. The courts and the law advance rights first.

RIP Tyler. He reminds me of the many virtuoso violin nerds I have sat next to or behind in the orchestra. Probably they were closeted too, now that I think of it. Musicianship is a great escape for troubled youth. And in the photos, he has excellent violin form.

Gathering or viewing sexual pictures without consent is a fourth-degree crime, and broadcasting them is a third-degree crime.

"State laws treat it like a nuisance, like graffiti on a street," Klingeman said.

He likened cyber-voyeurism to the illegal recording of phone calls and said: "It took a while for the law to catch up. Now, wiretapping is illegal."

This summer, ESPN reporter Erin Andrews appeared in Congress to express support for federal legislation to strengthen stalking laws.

The man convicted of videotaping her through a hotel peephole was sentenced to two years in prison. Her sentence, she said, was a lifetime of looking over her shoulder.

The legislation would cover technologies such as electronic monitoring, spyware, bugging and video surveillance, said the bill's sponsor, Rep. Loretta Sanchez, D-California. Under current law, a victim must have a "reasonable fear of physical injury" before a case can be prosecuted, Sanchez said. Sometimes, that is too late.

All the facts in the Clementi case are yet to surface.

Ravi's lawyer, Steve Altman, told The Star Ledger newspaper that he did not see how, under New Jersey law, Ravi and Wei could be held accountable for Clementi's suicide.

"To my knowledge, whatever the allegations are that justify the criminal complaints filed against the students, would not justify under either legal or common law any culpability for the suicide," Altman told the newspaper.

What is alleged is that on the evening of September 19, Ravi sent a message by Twitter about his roommate, Clementi.

"Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay."

Ravi tried to use the webcam again two days later, on September 21, according to the Middlesex County prosecutor's office.

"Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it's happening again," Ravi is believed to have tweeted.

The next day, Clementi, 18, was dead.

A mobile status update September 22 on a Facebook page purportedly belonging to Clementi said: "jumping off the gw bridge sorry."

"If the charges are true, these actions gravely violate the university's standards of decency and humanity," Rutgers President Richard L. McCormick said after the news of Clementi's death broke.

If Ravi and Wei are convicted on the invasion of privacy charges, they face a maximum penalty of five years in jail.

The punishment, said Washington privacy lawyer Christopher Wolf, seems too lenient for the crime if it's proved that Clementi's suicide was triggered by the webcam video.

Wolf said the Rutgers incident reminded him of Lori Drew, the Missouri woman convicted on three misdemeanor counts of accessing protected computers without authorization.

Prosecutors argued that Drew illegally used the social networking site MySpace to humiliate a 13-year-old girl, who authorities said killed herself after receiving derogatory messages.

In that case, Wolf said, prosecutors found that there were not any existing laws that allowed them to charge Drew for the crime they said was committed.

But in America, Wolf said, revisions in the law will not come easy.

"We also have to remember we have First Amendment laws," he said. "What we really need is a new culture of cyber civility."

When fourth-graders are obtaining Facebook pages, Wolf said, parents can no longer afford to abdicate computer usage rules to the kids because they happen to be more technologically savvy than they are.

Wolf said service providers and institutions -- like Rutgers -- need to take more responsibility for online content.

"There isn't an easy solution," he said. "But hateful words do cause physical harm. The blog-brain barrier has been breached.

"I'm a privacy lawyer by profession, but I think we're making a mistake if we depend just on the law."

http://edition.cnn.com/20...ide.legal/

I very rarely post over here anymore, but I was curious about what you all had to say about this incident, and apparently there have been 4 others all concerning young men and their sexuality?

In my experience... young men and men are more prone to suicide in general. It seems young men commit suicide as a sort of impulse, or course I'm talking about those without a history of depression. I used to to teach high school, and I had a student who committed suicide over breaking up with his girlfriend. He got drunk and shot himself. Then there were two former students who also committed suicide.. one by hanging and one by jumping off the roof of his house over breaking-up with a girl.. then the other had a drug problem. Then there was another student I knew vaguely with a history of depression who drowned himself.. From what I understand his suicide was more planned-out. I taught for 10 years, and I'm not aware of any female students committing suicide.. not to say it doesn't happen, of course, but I just don't think women commit suicide as often as men.

I also think this sort of relates to the dynamic of on-campus shootings and other sort of suicide missions where males tend to take people with them. I mean... how many females have done this--even with suicide bombers? It's just not as common for females even though statistically, females suffer more from depression than men, it's men who tend to take their lives more often.. and then some taking the lives of others, too.

I do think "bullying" is a problem in schools because it's a problem in American culture. Adults bully each other, condoning their kids actions or looking the other way when it suits them. That's one of the reasons I left teaching--not so much because of the kids being bullies because some of them don't know any better, but because the "system" sort of allows it. The final straw for me came when these "rich" kids were taunting this special needs girl with a history of depression. I walked up to them, and told them to cut it out--telling them they knew better... and told the girl to get back to class--or content mastery. Then I told him an administrator about it, and his response to me was that she "was probably off her meds."

This whole incident happened right after Columbine. One would think administrators would be hyper-vigilant.. but no.. nothing had changed at all. The administrator didn't reprimand the "rich and popular" kids at all was all too quick to make some assinine quip about a special-needs student. I couldn't believe it, particularly considering the climate at the time. Nothing had changed at all, and still hasn't from my observation.

I don't know exactly what has happened... what has "turned-off" but it just seems like society isn't compassionate or tolerant much less kids. I don't really know what is going on.. I don't know if we've gotten too competitive.. I don't know.. But it's very sad, and scary actually.

Anyway, this boy committing suicide obviously did it because he couldn't see any way out in the moment. That's what happens to A LOT with young men in the moment. My question is what on earth possessed the other two student to do film him in the first place? It might be true these two students involved would have done the same thing with a heterosexual girl or guy, but it's still...disgusting and illegal obviously. It may have been just some dumb-ass stunt. And yeah, the response from the victims would probably be different. But I just think this boy couldn't see the forest for the trees in the moment. It was just a moment in time where he couldn't see a way out and acted upon it.

It's very sad..

If you are the get away driver in a bank robbery and someone in the bank gets shot and killed, you are still tried for first degree murder. No one believes you planned or intended that someone was killed, but you engaged in an act that you knew or should have known has the potential to harm. If you are the get away driver in a bank robbery and someone in the bank gets shot and killed, you are still tried for first degree murder. No one believes you planned or intended that someone was killed, but you engaged in an act that you knew or should have known has the potential to harm.

I think one would have to look at the facts of a specific case as far as the sentencing phase...but for sure there are certain crimes automatically qualifying for 1st degree as opposed to manslaughter..

I'm wondering exactly how this all fits in because the "perpetrators" did not directly "kill" this boy as part of a crime in progress. In other words a similar scenario would be more similar to victims of a robbery choosing to commit suicide due to emotional distress as a result of being victimized. I don't think this act would qualify as first degree murder. Unfortunately, this boy chose to take his own life. I don't think this would qualify as murder in the first degree. There is a possibility if this boy had been harassed repeatedly then there might be an argument for manslaughter??

But it doesn't appear this boy had been harassed as far as we know right now. As far as we know, this was a single event...with a horrible outcome..

We shall see how everything plays-out.

[Edited 10/2/10 5:29am]

SUPRMAN said:

This is more that a verbal comment regarding something personal that may be, or is, embarrassing. This is a personal private guarded moment, unknowingly and unexpectedly broadcast to the world, irretrievably available to all future employers and anyone who googles him.

This is exactly the part that I agree with. Throw the book at him for invading his privacy and posting it online. It's the additional part--the hate crime aspect and the outing--that I can't rush to judgment on.

Efan said:

SUPRMAN said:

This is exactly the part that I agree with. Throw the book at him for invading his privacy and posting it online. It's the additional part--the hate crime aspect and the outing--that I can't rush to judgment on.

Yeah...

If this boy had been harassed repeatedly TO HIS FACE, I doubt very seriously if he would have brought home a date. I don't think he would have trusted his roommate enough to bring home a date.

HOWEVER, the boy apparently didn't have any idea what had been going on behind his back. It seems to me this was the first overt incident. Right now it appears, the roomate may have done the same thing to a heterosexual guy bringing home a date. The result may have been different because I wonder in that case if the guy victim would have been upset.. as the girl being filmed. As a female I would have pissed enough to press charges, but I wonder if a heterosexual guy would have pressed charges on his buddy for taping him? But I would imagine "the date" would not have been so forgiving.

So not only was this boy a "victim" of a cyber crime, but his date was also a victim, right? I would imagine his date was on-film, too, and he didn't commit suicide? Was his face covered somehow? Was it a set-up of some sort?? It could have been a set-up in the sense the "date" was in on the whole thing. That's always a possibility.

I just think it's going to be a very fine line to prove "manslaughter" based upon what we know now. But there is a possibility if the boy was set-up as a fool--if kids were conspiring behind his back to set him up for a fall--particularly if "the date" was involved... then those are extreme circumstances beyond just a random act as a horrible prank.

I wonder about the other victim... "the date"?

Cinnie said:

DesireeNevermind said:

^ Damn is that tweet really from 50 Cent? What a silly thing to say. Must be another rap beef he's having.

He has been trying to find a "bitch" on Twitter, as well as a BJ. He was hinting that he reciprocates orally.

And then there's his cheaper to keep her? nah, cheaper to kill her tweet, which did it for me.