Imago said:

Imago said:

This is such an enlightening read, Dan, really. Thanks.

I think that's an important distinction - parents may have some disappointment, but what's profound is the absence of judgment and hate, no?


[Edited 11/14/09 7:38am]

what do you honestly feel the future will hold for this LadyBoy...?

Do I still have to call you Professor when we chat?

roodboi said:

I had a dream of you last night



I need to go find a temple this morning.

roodboi said:

!!!

I’ve been teaching English at a pretty prestigious International University here in Bangkok now for the last week (yes, I’m a total newbie at what I’m doing). To say that I enjoy my work would be nothing more than a gross understatement. I absolutely love what I’m doing for the first time in almost 5 years. Dare I say it, it’s quite possibley the most fun I’ve evey had working at any place, in any position, ever. There is something to be said about having your students wait until after class to hand little gifts just because they like you. Or to have them stand at the door after class saying, “Ajan (the word for teacher/professor), Dan—goodbye…Have a good day.” It’s positively heart warming. It’s healing.

I’ve been ‘volunteered’ to work one day a week in a town about 2 hours outside of Bangkok located on the shores of the Gulf of Thailand not far from the resort location of Pataya and Ban Saeng. It’s a high school which is trying to get a certain percentage of their students in to my University. There’s a ‘handshake’ program in which I’m required to give these students a 10 week intensive English learning program.
The students are much less polished than the senior 4th year college students that I lecture to on a normal basis. These students laugh, and joke, and must be told at least 4 or 5 times a day to quite down. But along with this spunk and energy is a certain willingness to volunteer for class activities that is lacking in my more demure and reserved college students.
But I’ve noticed something very …unique… at least in my experience… about 2 of my students. I have a few gay students in each class. Thailand is not a country that is openly hostile to gay youth. As a matter of fact, young, gay men in Thailand are self-actualized with regards to their homosexuality long before their western counterparts. By the time a homosexual male is 13 or 14, he may very well already be ‘out’ to his parents and all of his friends. And there is little or no discrimination or harassment that I can tell that takes place with them. They’re simply just gay, and nobody seems to turn it into a moral or political item for posturing.

This does not mean, of course, that my gay students are ‘one of the boys’, nor does it mean that they are free of bullying. Boy swill bully each other, and being more feminine than that the other boys is surely going to be an easy attribute to pick on. But the idea that you gang up on and ‘beat the fag’ isn’t part of the Thai mentality. That being said, I have gay students in each of my classes who are ‘out’ with no need to make a statement about it.

However, in my high school class that I teach once a week, one of the students is actually a ladyboy. He’s very pale, obviously lightening his skin, and he has the cutest little smile. His mannerisms are typically female. But the poor kid must dress in the boy’s uniform (dark blue shorts, white socks, black shoes, and white button shirt). Boys at the highschool must also not have hair that touches their shoulders—the dress code is very strict. I did a meet-and-greet with the students asking them to give a short speech about themvelves. When I called on him, I said, “And you sir. What is your name?”.
The boy in front of him, who is your typical masculine alpha-male type, corrected me and said, “no sir, Ajan Dan… M’am.—He keotoey (their word for ladyboy). The class than laughed and giggled, and the boy looked at me with a shy smile and said, “(his name), ka (the female polite word added to the end of sentences).”
I, having seen plenty of ladyboys in Bangkok and being VERY sensitive to making sure my students don’t feel alienated, simply nodded in respect then carried on the conversation about his “likes and dislikes about his classes, which was part of the meet-and-greet speeches.” His friend, who sat beside him, was very feminine too--but not as much so. He was more like a flamboyantly gay man--But someone who definitely identified as a man and not a woman or ladyboy.

What completely blew my mind, though I dared not show it, was that everyone in class knew what he was. He felt no need to hide it. He felt no need to apologize or feel ashamed of himself. The alpha-male joked at him, but not in a mean way---he joked at him sort of like you would with a good friend of yours. It was the strangest thing I’ve ever seen here in Thailand—and believe me, I’ve seen a lot of strange things.

The dichotomy between the repressed, puritan West, with it’s supposed championing of diversity and human rights, has many many decades if not another century to catch up with Thailand when it comes to acceptance of differences with sexuality.
Can you imagine an America where teenage boys don’t have to go through their adolescent years being secretly in love with unrequited objects of affection? Where they don’t feel a need to pray…indeed plead and beg God to let them ‘not be gay.’? Where they don’t need to live in fear of being rejected by family, friends, and society? Where they don’t have to go on to sometimes becoming repressed self-hating Republican senators? (And democratic ones too).
I don’t mean to romanticize Thailand’s acceptance of homsexuals—it’s not perfect. Fathers and mothers would still be very disappointed and upset if their sons were gay or transgender. But the level of their disappointment is more about what’s preferred and ‘better for the child’ or family than what is right or wrong. It’s more about being ‘normal’ to them than being moral.

I had so many things I wanted to say about this subject, but the ideas and thoughts now escape me. All I can say is that with each passing day, I become more and more in love with my heritage, my motherland, and humankind. I’m finding happiness in the strangest experiences, and I love it more than I can convey in this sloppy post.


.
[Edited 11/14/09 6:56am]

Muse2NoPharaoh said:

You can call me what you've always called.... boo

Imago said:

This is such an enlightening read, Dan, really. Thanks.

I think that's an important distinction - parents may have some disappointment, but what's profound is the absence of judgment and hate, no?


[Edited 11/14/09 7:38am]

First of all, awesome thread. There's so much more to go into about these issues and how they're viewed in Thailand (about the tolerance, acceptance, but also disappointment you touched upon) but it could go on and on and on. You just about nailed the general differences here.

That was also a great point you made about how integrated they are, work-wise. Mon's make-up artist and stylist for the wedding was a ladyboy, as was the owner of the bridal shop in charge of the dresses and photography. There are some places they won't be found working, like the ones you mentioned, but in general they can work pretty much anywhere, and most importantly, be a ladyboy as they want to be in the workplace without any problems. They can work in office jobs and dress in womens' clothes, no matter that their ID card says they're male. There are ladyboys around here in the restaurants, in hotels we've been to waiting tables, behind the bar, on reception or wherever. A lot work in the service industry, nobody bats an eyelid, and they're just like any other female worker. Working on the cosmetic counters in department stores too, or in any shop really, and you just don't think about it after a while.

About the word 'katoey', it's not used in a derogatory way. The way to know this is to think about the terms used as insults in English and compare them to Thai insults. In the west you'll hear 'fag', 'gay' etc. as insults but not in Thailand. They usually say 'ai' (hey) either bitch, prick, buffalo, animal, or crazy but nobody goes around saying 'ai gay' or 'ai katoey'. They just don't. I think that actually says a hell of a lot.

Great thread Dan... you're doing a good thing!

will you also teach them OTA, Amessing, OTAasskaboom and so on? That would be... well... amessing!

Another thing I remember was a time I was having a few beers with my brother in law and his mates and they were talking about a night out they'd had. Turns out a couple of the guys had had a bit of a fumble with some katoeys. They said they were 'suay' (beautiful) and I think one guy knew they were katoeys and the other didn't. They just joked about it, without being ashamed or made to feel embarrassed or anything, and certainly without disgust. They were all straight guys as far as I know (now married or with gf's), and didn't seem to have any insecurity issues about it. They just saw it as a fun night out. Conversely many years back when I stayed with Mon in her guesthouse job I heard of a few western guys unwittingly having similar experiences, ending up either going straight home on the next available flight or spiraling into drinking and depression.

Fauxie said:

and it's all because of society's expectations and pressures, nothing to do with the experience itself

I’ve been teaching English at a pretty prestigious International University here in Bangkok now for the last week (yes, I’m a total newbie at what I’m doing). To say that I enjoy my work would be nothing more than a gross understatement. I absolutely love what I’m doing for the first time in almost 5 years. Dare I say it, it’s quite possibley the most fun I’ve evey had working at any place, in any position, ever. There is something to be said about having your students wait until after class to hand little gifts just because they like you. Or to have them stand at the door after class saying, “Ajan (the word for teacher/professor), Dan—goodbye…Have a good day.” It’s positively heart warming. It’s healing.

I’ve been ‘volunteered’ to work one day a week in a town about 2 hours outside of Bangkok located on the shores of the Gulf of Thailand not far from the resort location of Pataya and Ban Saeng. It’s a high school which is trying to get a certain percentage of their students in to my University. There’s a ‘handshake’ program in which I’m required to give these students a 10 week intensive English learning program.
The students are much less polished than the senior 4th year college students that I lecture to on a normal basis. These students laugh, and joke, and must be told at least 4 or 5 times a day to quite down. But along with this spunk and energy is a certain willingness to volunteer for class activities that is lacking in my more demure and reserved college students.
But I’ve noticed something very …unique… at least in my experience… about 2 of my students. I have a few gay students in each class. Thailand is not a country that is openly hostile to gay youth. As a matter of fact, young, gay men in Thailand are self-actualized with regards to their homosexuality long before their western counterparts. By the time a homosexual male is 13 or 14, he may very well already be ‘out’ to his parents and all of his friends. And there is little or no discrimination or harassment that I can tell that takes place with them. They’re simply just gay, and nobody seems to turn it into a moral or political item for posturing.

This does not mean, of course, that my gay students are ‘one of the boys’, nor does it mean that they are free of bullying. Boy swill bully each other, and being more feminine than that the other boys is surely going to be an easy attribute to pick on. But the idea that you gang up on and ‘beat the fag’ isn’t part of the Thai mentality. That being said, I have gay students in each of my classes who are ‘out’ with no need to make a statement about it.

However, in my high school class that I teach once a week, one of the students is actually a ladyboy. He’s very pale, obviously lightening his skin, and he has the cutest little smile. His mannerisms are typically female. But the poor kid must dress in the boy’s uniform (dark blue shorts, white socks, black shoes, and white button shirt). Boys at the highschool must also not have hair that touches their shoulders—the dress code is very strict. I did a meet-and-greet with the students asking them to give a short speech about themvelves. When I called on him, I said, “And you sir. What is your name?”.
The boy in front of him, who is your typical masculine alpha-male type, corrected me and said, “no sir, Ajan Dan… M’am.—He keotoey (their word for ladyboy). The class than laughed and giggled, and the boy looked at me with a shy smile and said, “(his name), ka (the female polite word added to the end of sentences).”
I, having seen plenty of ladyboys in Bangkok and being VERY sensitive to making sure my students don’t feel alienated, simply nodded in respect then carried on the conversation about his “likes and dislikes about his classes, which was part of the meet-and-greet speeches.” His friend, who sat beside him, was very feminine too--but not as much so. He was more like a flamboyantly gay man--But someone who definitely identified as a man and not a woman or ladyboy.

What completely blew my mind, though I dared not show it, was that everyone in class knew what he was. He felt no need to hide it. He felt no need to apologize or feel ashamed of himself. The alpha-male joked at him, but not in a mean way---he joked at him sort of like you would with a good friend of yours. It was the strangest thing I’ve ever seen here in Thailand—and believe me, I’ve seen a lot of strange things.

The dichotomy between the repressed, puritan West, with it’s supposed championing of diversity and human rights, has many many decades if not another century to catch up with Thailand when it comes to acceptance of differences with sexuality.
Can you imagine an America where teenage boys don’t have to go through their adolescent years being secretly in love with unrequited objects of affection? Where they don’t feel a need to pray…indeed plead and beg God to let them ‘not be gay.’? Where they don’t need to live in fear of being rejected by family, friends, and society? Where they don’t have to go on to sometimes becoming repressed self-hating Republican senators? (And democratic ones too).
I don’t mean to romanticize Thailand’s acceptance of homsexuals—it’s not perfect. Fathers and mothers would still be very disappointed and upset if their sons were gay or transgender. But the level of their disappointment is more about what’s preferred and ‘better for the child’ or family than what is right or wrong. It’s more about being ‘normal’ to them than being moral.

I had so many things I wanted to say about this subject, but the ideas and thoughts now escape me. All I can say is that with each passing day, I become more and more in love with my heritage, my motherland, and humankind. I’m finding happiness in the strangest experiences, and I love it more than I can convey in this sloppy post.


.
[Edited 11/14/09 6:56am]