MickyDolenz said:

People who always talk about Lionel's solo music, must haven't heard much of J.D. Nicholas era Commodores. Their records weren't that different from Lionel's, they just didn't sell much. Their most popular song Nightshift could have fit just fine on Lionel's albums.

You have a point. I only liked Nightshift during it's time and the uptempo Going To The Bank

which does nothing for me now. Truth is much of their output during J'D's period

sounded like theme songs to cheesy 80's movies. There weren't going to be a whole lot of die hard Commodores fans accepting the new lineup without Lionel. I was one of them. As for Lionel his first 2 solo albums were great but there was very little that I liked after. It was just as well Lionel left when he did because they were slowly but surely becoming a pop ballad band which Lionel was spearheading because he became the alpha dog songwriter. I'm not sure Nightshift is a song Lionel would have gone for.

phunkdaddy said:

You have a point. I only liked Nightshift during it's time and the uptempo Going To The Bank

which does nothing for me now. Truth is much of their output during J'D's period

sounded like theme songs to cheesy 80's movies. There weren't going to be a whole lot of die hard Commodores fans accepting the new lineup without Lionel. I was one of them. As for Lionel his first 2 solo albums were great but there was very little that I liked after. It was just as well Lionel left when he did because they were slowly but surely becoming a pop ballad band which Lionel was spearheading because he became the alpha dog songwriter. I'm not sure Nightshift is a song Lionel would have gone for.

Really, the main difference is that Lionel's songs were big hits, so were played a lot and some are still popular today, unlike the Commodores with J.D. Many R&B and rock acts from the 1960s & 1970s changed their sound in the 1980s. There's a difference between early 1970s jazzy Chicago and the 1980s power ballad era. Same for Kenny Loggins, who became known for soundtrack hits in the 1980s. Stevie Wonder & The Pointer Sisters made synth pop songs in the 80s. Kool & The Gang crossed over with songs like Celebration, Misled & Joanna. Bob Seger had a synth pop hit with Shakedown. Listen to the Jacksons' Victory and Jermaine's solo albums on Arista. Peabo Bryson, George Benson, & Atlantic Starr started doing adult contemporary songs. Aretha Franklin, Natalie Cole, Patti Labelle & Tina Turner had success doing Top 40 style pop songs just like Lionel, especially Tina. That was just the popular sound then on Top 40. So I don't get why Lionel gets put down for doing the same thing a bunch of other acts did during the same time period.

MickyDolenz said:

It's not just the fans, Lionel's own bandmates particularly William King wasn't
happy with the way Lionel exited the band. The band was on hold while Lionel
worked on outside projects with the understanding that they would work on the next album before Lionel decided to jump solo. When Lionel called for a reunion of the original members several years ago William King and Clyde Orange respectfully declined on their Facebook page.

phunkdaddy said:

It's not just the fans, Lionel's own bandmates particularly William King wasn't happy with the way Lionel exited the band. The band was on hold while Lionel worked on outside projects with the understanding that they would work on the next album before Lionel decided to jump solo. When Lionel called for a reunion of the original members several years ago William King and Clyde Orange respectfully declined on their Facebook page.

That doesn't really have anything with the sound of Lionel's or the Commodores records, that's more a personality conflict. If Lionel remained with the group, their albums wouldn't have been drastically different. Some of the Commodores songs post-Lionel sound no different than Dancing On The Ceiling (the song). So it wasn't only Lionel who abandoned funk music, so did the band. They were already heading towards that with Lady You Bring Me Up & Oh No from the last album with Lionel. Really you could say it was the audience who abandoned funk, especially horn bands. Hip hop and Luther Vandross/Freddie Jackson/Whitney Houston AC style ballad singers eventually took their place on the R&B chart. Electrofunk fit with more what b-boy breakdancers & lockers were doing. Even Soul Train started playing and featuring more pop acts in the mid-1980s. I guess Don was trying to get some of the American Bandstand & Solid Gold audience.

phunkdaddy said:

MickyDolenz said:

There's also the case that Lionel has been touring every year for years. Many of the people who would go to see him probably already have. He probably doesn't change his his setlist much either. It's not like the Rolling Stones, who might tour every few years, so a demand has built up. I'm not sure that there's much of an overlap between the fan bases of Lionel & Mariah. Mariah has a more hip hop audience who might not be interested in Lionel, & vice versa. In recent years. Lionel has had his biggest CD success with the country audience, sort of like Darius Rucker from Hootie & The Blowfish. Technically, not counting the Commodores, Lionel only has 3 albums that were well known and had big hit singles. They all came out in the 1980s. The ones that came out after 1990 were little known for the most part and I don't think he performs any of that. So Lionel has a limited amount of material to perform. For some reason, he likes to sing Fire by the Ohio Players in his shows.

I'm quite surprised he performs this song considering he won't perform any of the Commodores

hits besides Easy. It's like he would break out in hives if he performed Just To Be Close To You

or Fancy Dancer. Sail On is as country as you can get and he won't perform that during his solo shows.

I saw Lionel during his residency at Planet Hollywood in Vegas last September and he sang Fancy Dancer, Just to be Close to You and Sweet Love, among other Commodores hits.

MickyDolenz said:

phunkdaddy said:

It's not just the fans, Lionel's own bandmates particularly William King wasn't happy with the way Lionel exited the band. The band was on hold while Lionel worked on outside projects with the understanding that they would work on the next album before Lionel decided to jump solo. When Lionel called for a reunion of the original members several years ago William King and Clyde Orange respectfully declined on their Facebook page.

That doesn't really have anything with the sound of Lionel's or the Commodores records, that's more a personality conflict. If Lionel remained with the group, their albums wouldn't have been drastically different. Some of the Commodores songs post-Lionel sound no different than Dancing On The Ceiling (the song). So it wasn't only Lionel who abandoned funk music, so did the band. They were already heading towards that with Lady You Bring Me Up & Oh No from the last album with Lionel. Really you could say it was the audience who abandoned funk, especially horn bands. Hip hop and Luther Vandross/Freddie Jackson/Whitney Houston AC style ballad singers eventually took their place on the R&B chart. Electrofunk fit with more what b-boy breakdancers & lockers were doing. Even Soul Train started playing and featuring more pop acts in the mid-1980s. I guess Don was trying to get some of the American Bandstand & Solid Gold audience.

I wouldn't classify In The Pocket as a total pop album. Lady You Bring Me Up was more R&B than

pop. You also had Saturday Night and Keep On Taking Me Higher. Oh No and Why You Wanna Try Me were more pop records. They rode a delicate balance between pop and R&B on their final album with Lionel. I had no interest in any post Commodores albums without Lionel and you're right even if Lionel stayed I think their core audience would have waned anyway. I was in high school when Lionel left and many fans had moved on to Prince and The Time, Cameo, Barkays, Lakeside, Zapp, and other synth funkers. EWF barely hung on around this time with Let's Groove after the disappointing Faces album. I don't think the audience abandoned funk as much as the industry changed. The industry found there were cheaper ways to make a profit without using

a studio full of musicians thus the evolution of rappers, pared down r&b lineups, and solo artists some of whom fronted big r&b bands. There were still many r&b bands coming out in the late 80's into 1991 but you could probably count on one hand the number of them having success into the 90's. The bottom line is the majority of artists in the industry has a shelf life.

MissEmeraldCity said:

phunkdaddy said:

I'm quite surprised he performs this song considering he won't perform any of the Commodores

hits besides Easy. It's like he would break out in hives if he performed Just To Be Close To You

or Fancy Dancer. Sail On is as country as you can get and he won't perform that during his solo shows.

I saw Lionel during his residency at Planet Hollywood in Vegas last September and he sang Fancy Dancer, Just to be Close to You and Sweet Love, among other Commodores hits.

I would love to see him sing Fancy Dancer.

[Edited 3/6/17 20:53pm]

phunkdaddy said:

Wow,they really declined to reunite? I never knew that I love it when my favorite bands decide to reunite but if there is still bad blood and hurt feelings,it makes sense to not do it

MickyDolenz said:

--Because he put out crap like Dancing On The Ceiling. or Say you Say Me. The Commodores songs were better songs and did we really need a black Barry Manilow?

phunkdaddy said:

Lionel's solo work was also pretty 80's cheesy. Not everything, but a lot.

Cinny said:

.
Sure she did I mean she sure did

laurarichardson said:

--Because he put out crap like Dancing On The Ceiling. or Say you Say Me. The Commodores songs were better songs and did we really need a black Barry Manilow?

Since Dancing On The Ceiling was Top 10 on the Hot 100, R&B, and adult contemporary chart and Say You, Say Me was #1 on all 3 charts, a lot of other people disagree with you. Both songs were also re-recorded on the country duets album Lionel released in 2012 and the CD was Lionel's biggest seller since the 1980s. Barry was really popular too, so what's your point? Nothing wrong with someone that makes music that a lot of people buy, nor is there anything wrong with adult contemporary.

StrangeButTrue said:

Cinny said:

Well, Janet really did have that baby.

. Sure she did I mean she sure did

nextedition said:

Lionel's solo work was also pretty 80's cheesy. Not everything, but a lot.

I like his first two solo albums,but he lost me with the third album Dancing On The Ceiling.The title track is the worst song he ever did and with sappy,draggy ballads like "Say You,Say Me" and "Ballerina Girl",he was really starting to piss me off

SoulAlive said:

I do like "Say you.." though, but the title track was really really bad

MickyDolenz said:

In the 80s,I used to read a magazine called Black Beat.Their writers were very opinionated and wrote exactly what they felt.In 1986,they had an article titled 'Is Lionel Richie becoming the black Barry Manilow?' There was a feeling among R&B/funk fans that Lionel was becoming "too pop" and completely abandoning his R&B roots.What a lot of people don't know is that,Lionel was kinda feeling the same way.In 1987,he asked Jam and Lewis to produce his next album.The idea was to make a soulful album with less pop on it.They turned him down because they were too busy at the time.They finally worked with him in the 90s,on his 1996 album 'Louder Than Words'.The single "Don't Wanna Lose You Now" has a "Just To Be Close To You" feel to it....really smooth and soulful.That was intentional.


..
[Edited 3/7/17 20:32pm]

SoulAlive said:

phunkdaddy said:

It's not just the fans, Lionel's own bandmates particularly William King wasn't happy with the way Lionel exited the band. The band was on hold while Lionel worked on outside projects with the understanding that they would work on the next album before Lionel decided to jump solo. When Lionel called for a reunion of the original members several years ago William King and Clyde Orange respectfully declined on their Facebook page.

Wow,they really declined to reunite? I never knew that I love it when my favorite bands decide to reunite but if there is still bad blood and hurt feelings,it makes sense to not do it

From my understanding they're all cool with each other it's just from a business perspective that

they prefer not to work with Lionel.

phunkdaddy said:

From my understanding they're all cool with each other it's just from a business perspective that

they prefer not to work with Lionel.

The other 2 ex-members (Thomas McClary & Ronald LaPread) have performed with Lionel.

MickyDolenz said:

phunkdaddy said:

From my understanding they're all cool with each other it's just from a business perspective that

they prefer not to work with Lionel.

The other 2 ex-members (Thomas McClary & Ronald LaPread) have performed with Lionel.

I know. I was referring to William King and Clyde Orange.

MickyDolenz said:

laurarichardson said:

--Because he put out crap like Dancing On The Ceiling. or Say you Say Me. The Commodores songs were better songs and did we really need a black Barry Manilow?

Since Dancing On The Ceiling was Top 10 on the Hot 100, R&B, and adult contemporary chart and Say You, Say Me was #1 on all 3 charts, a lot of other people disagree with you. Both songs were also re-recorded on the country duets album Lionel released in 2012 and the CD was Lionel's biggest seller since the 1980s. Barry was really popular too, so what's your point? Nothing wrong with someone that makes music that a lot of people buy, nor is there anything wrong with adult contemporary.

You are right nothing wrong with MOR boring and white bread music. Plenty of people like it and plenty of people do not. If you think Lionel deserved to win best album over Purple Rain so be it but PR has been a continual best seller not so much for "Cant' Slow Down" or any of Lionel subsequent releashes.

At the end of the day his Commordore stuff is a million times better qualtity wise then his solo or country stuff. Oh and Commondore stuff was pretty popular just because you drain the soul out of music does not make it better.

My guess is RnB stations played "Dancing On The Ceiling" due to payola. I have never heard that song on RnB radio since the 80's not even on the RnB oldies stations.

laurarichardson said:

At the end of the day his Commordore stuff is a million times better qualtity wise then his solo or country stuff. Oh and Commondore stuff was pretty popular just because you drain the soul out of music does not make it better.

But we were talking about the Commodores with J.D. Nicholas, which wasn't really popular other than the song Nightshift. The Commodores music with J.D. was not any different than Lionel's solo albums. You must haven't heard them if you think it's different.

MickyDolenz said:

laurarichardson said:

At the end of the day his Commordore stuff is a million times better qualtity wise then his solo or country stuff. Oh and Commondore stuff was pretty popular just because you drain the soul out of music does not make it better.

But we were talking about the Commodores with J.D. Nicholas, which wasn't really popular other than the song Nightshift. The Commodores music with J.D. was not any different than Lionel's solo albums. You must haven't heard them if you think it's different.

I am comparing the original Commodores music to Lione'sl solo dreck.

So are you saying this stuff is way different from Lionel solo?

laurarichardson said:

MickyDolenz said:

But we were talking about the Commodores with J.D. Nicholas, which wasn't really popular other than the song Nightshift. The Commodores music with J.D. was not any different than Lionel's solo albums. You must haven't heard them if you think it's different.

You asked this question " So I don't get why Lionel gets put down for doing the same thing a bunch of other acts did during the same time period." Lionel solo stuff sucked compared to the stuff he did with the original Commodores. No one really cares about the Commodores music after Lionel left. You can be an RnB artist and do good pop music. Plenty of people of have done it.

MickyDolenz said:

So are you saying this stuff is way different from Lionel solo?

These songs were not even hits. No one was checking for these guys after Nightshift.

laurarichardson said:

These songs were not even hits. No one was checking for these guys after Nightshift.

Doesn't matter if it they were hits or not. People put down Lionel for dropping R&B and funk when the Commodores did the same thing. Most of the 1970s Commodores hits had Lionel as the lead. Some people think Lionel is lead on Brick House, when he wasn't. To the general public, Lionel was the voice of the Commodores like Michael was the voice of The Jacksons. So of course, the Commodores aren't going to sell as much without Lionel or get the same amount of airplay. It wasn't like Van Halen with Sammy Hagar. Sammy already had some popularity before joining Van Halen, so people knew his voice, unlike with J.D. Nicholas or even Walter Orange. That's why Lionel was successful, the mainstream already knew his voice and he made catchy songs that people liked.

laurarichardson said:

My guess is RnB stations played "Dancing On The Ceiling" due to payola. I have never heard that song on RnB radio since the 80's not even on the RnB oldies stations.

All songs on Top 40 stations are on there by payola. Payola doesn't sell records. People are not going to buy record they don't like. They're not going to call in to the station to request it either. Many songs played on the radio flop. A record back then couldn't get to the top 10 without people buying it. So that means the R&B audience liked Dancing On The Ceiling enough to spend money on the 45 or the album it came from.

Mickey who are you having this conversation with about the post Lionel Commodores music

being funk oriented?

I never saw anyone here say as much. Most people tuned the post Lionel Commodores out

after Nightshift. We both could agree that Lionel made his exit at the right time because their popularity would have waned just like EWF was waning by 1983. They were both replaced by Kool & The Gang as the Universal Band reaching audiences on R&B and pop radio. Meanwhile most r&b fans had turned their attention to all the synth funk bands up until 1986.

I even forgot the post Lionel lineup released an album called Rock Solid.

Like Laura mentioned no one was checking for the post Lionel Commodores after Nightshift and they

barely sniffed the charts again with Going To The Bank. Why the post Lionel Commodores were

releasing music for the Short Circuit soundtrack is a mystery to me especially with the musical

backbone of the group Milan Williams(keys) and Ronald LaPread(bass) still intact for a minute.

When they left it was really all she wrote.

As far as the popularity of Dancing On The Ceiling it was a given that it was gonna make

a splash on pop radio. I am surprised that it charted that high on R&B charts because I didn't hear

it that much as opposed to Say You, Say Me. Also folks didn't have to buy singles in mass quantity for it to chart high back in the day. Folks did request records on radio back then that's why some stations had a weekly most requested song of the day honor. When new singles came out

they often had what they called radio add ons so some had more than others and generally got

more airplay based off that and requests. So airplay and requests factored into chart success

back then. I don't know about now. I remember buying the Dancing On The Ceiling album and

forgiving Lionel for the first single but when I bought it home and listened to it I took it back to the

record store the next day and before I even got out the parking lot to the record store I sold

it to the first soccer mom I saw.

phunkdaddy said:

I remember buying the Dancing On The Ceiling album and

forgiving Lionel for the first single but when I bought it home and listened to it I took it back to the

record store the next day and before I even got out the parking lot to the record store I sold

it to the first soccer mom I saw.

same here! LOL,I bought the cassette when it was released.There is only one song on the album that I liked ("Love Will Conquer All").I ended up giving the cassette away.

MickyDolenz said:

laurarichardson said:

These songs were not even hits. No one was checking for these guys after Nightshift.

Doesn't matter if it they were hits or not. People put down Lionel for dropping R&B and funk when the Commodores did the same thing. Most of the 1970s Commodores hits had Lionel as the lead. Some people think Lionel is lead on Brick House, when he wasn't. To the general public, Lionel was the voice of the Commodores like Michael was the voice of The Jacksons. So of course, the Commodores aren't going to sell as much without Lionel or get the same amount of airplay. It wasn't like Van Halen with Sammy Hagar. Sammy already had some popularity before joining Van Halen, so people knew his voice, unlike with J.D. Nicholas or even Walter Orange. That's why Lionel was successful, the mainstream already knew his voice and he made catchy songs that people liked.

Maybe there is a language barrier. No one was checking for the Commodores after Lionel left. I doubt the Commodores had any say in their music after Lionel left. Motown was on their last legs and probably decided to make the Commodores more pop because they desperately needed to sell records. Although the Commodores did pop/mor cuts on their albums when Lionel was around just not whole albums being pop and corny. Anyway no one cared about the new Commodores corny pop songs are not. I kind of think good songs are needed to maintain popularity.