duccichucka said:

SeventeenDayze said:

You know what else is to blame? The excessive use of drum beats in "traditional" R&B. I swear, I can hardly listen to some R&B artists because it seems like they are using the same sappy, tired sounding beats in the background or whatever. I'm not a musician so I can't describe it but it sounds so dull and it hurts my ears. I enjoy trap music more than most R&B because at least in trap they have a bit more variety in the beats LOL Remember this song? This is a prime example of the convergence of the two genres that are now joined at the hip:

[Edited 1/18/16 20:41pm]

There is no connection between the proliferation of R&B artists using drum machines excessively
with its purported demise. There are TONS of great R&B songs that feature a drum machine that
are really great pieces of art. This means that the converse is true: there are shitty R&B songs
that feature live drumming. So, I kinda disagree with this.

And what is "real" R&B" anyways? What does that even mean? Nothing has "happened" to R&
B music other than what happens to most pop music: taste changes over time!

Are you saying that the possibilities are endless with drum machines versus real instruments? I mean, I would think that drum machines can only come up with so many sounds but instruments can probably come up with a greater variety of sounds. But there's no denying that there are still MANY R&B songs that have painfully slow and sappy beats....as I said, trap music seems to be more entertaining than some of the R&B that's been put out over the past 10 years maybe. As I said in another post though there are exceptions.

SeventeenDayze said:

Are you saying that the possibilities are endless with drum machines versus real instruments? I mean, I would think that drum machines can only come up with so many sounds but instruments can probably come up with a greater variety of sounds.

Early R&B generally didn't have extravagant drumming. Just a steady backbeat.

MickyDolenz said:

kitbradley said:

Never going to happen. Hiring muscians is expensive. Labels don't respect R&B music. They are not willing to go back and make that kind of investment. Drum machines are way cheaper and as long as R&B artists are able to crank out 18 song CDs with that same, repetitive beat, record execs are saving lots of money.

Big name R&B producers aren't cheap though (and neither are name beatmakers). Anyway like I posted in the Adele thread, 18 of 25 albums of a recent Billboard R&B albums chart were rap albums. So a major label is likely to spend spend more money on rap than R&B when it is not that popular with a mainstream audience. The R&B acts that are popular usualy has a hip hop image like Chris Brown. That image kinda started with Jodeci, Jade, BBD, and TLC in the 1990s. Before this R&B acts either wore suits, sequined clothes, or space costumes and didn't really look like the audience. The hip hop generation's R&B acts were often dressed like the audience, so it's less the "us & them" of the old acts. It probably helped that the old R&B acts had little media attention, unlike today's social media generation, which also helped to kill the "us & them". The audience did not know that much about them. Ebony mostly had features on superstar acts like Diana Ross and not Brick.

.

It might be costly to hire name session musicians, but it can't cost all that much to hire someone to play instruments. Chuck Berry often hired pickup musicians in each city instead of having his own band when touring. Genres like zydeco, polka, & death metal are not mainstream popular, but they generally are self contained bands or have session guys on their records. A symphony orchestra has dozens of people in it. Audiences go to see them in concert too although they might not sell a huge amount of records. People go to tribute band/singer concerts, in which a lot of them don't even record. Oldies R&B acts usually have a band playing behind them like The O'Jays & The Whispers. Even Beyonce has an all female band playing behind her at her concerts.

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I think it's more that younger generations popular R&B generally has no bands in it, so they did not grow up with that. They grew up with a rap break instead of a guitar/sax solo. They also are more likely to go to a club to hear a DJ play CDs/records and not a live act. It's been said that that disco in the 1970s created DJ culture, so some clubs started to hire a DJ instead of a band. Rock, blues,death metal, & polka music were not as dependent on club DJs like dance music (in which some later R&B can be included) or even radio airplay, so the places those acts perform still hire bands or a singer with a band. There's also the "video killed the radio star". That created more dependence on an act being pretty in which some of the older R&B acts weren't. Although rappers don't have to be pretty. A pretty rapper is probably a minus and not a plus.

the big name producers today have no clue about live instruments, they are basically dj's who recycle the same beats. current artists are hardly going to the old school producers, they consider them irrelevant or old.

Co-sign with Lowkey there is no rhythm without real humans playing instruments involved. Its just programming.

There is no blues because our music has become advertorial (cars, clothes, beverages) and self-fulfilling... they talk about what they have, how they got or are getting it, and why they deserve it in most cases. What happened to R&B music is that both rhythm and blues have become passe. No one wants to hear sad songs because the world is really fuckin depressing enough in 2016.

I liked when it was swinging more towards the word "soul", an undefined term like "love" because its hard to package, capture, or snuff out the essence of something intangible. Just a few cents.

lowkey said:

the big name producers today have no clue about live instruments, they are basically dj's who recycle the same beats. current artists are hardly going to the old school producers, they consider them irrelevant or old.

Why would they use them, when that is not going to get radio airplay or at least get Youtube popularity? Compare the views of Rihanna or Nicki Minaj to Sharon Jones & The Dap Kings and Vintage Trouble. Sharon Jones don't even get airplay on adult R&B stations which favors neo-soul and Sam Smith/Adele and not really uptempo songs.

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In the past it wasn't that common to use old producers in current R&B. Other than Michael Jackson, how many young R&B acts in the 1980s used Quincy Jones? I think Jam & Lewis, L.A. & Babyface, Kashif, Teddy Riley, Full Force, Leon Sylvers, etc. were more used than Gamble & Huff, Don Davis, or Holland Dozier Holland. Many of those 1980s producers used drum programming. Rock Steady by The Whispers was programming and that crossed over and became a pop hit. Stevie Wonder's records in the 1980s had drum programming and so did Phil Collins' and they're drummers. Some smooth jazz songs and records by southern soul acts like Marvin Sease had drum machines. So drum programming was not just in music marketed towards a teen & young adult audience. This is probably Johnnie Taylor's highest charting song of the 1990s and there's no live drums. There a rap remix of Good Love too.

When it comes to R&B,I mostly listen to the great music from the past (60s,70s,and early 80s).Some would say that I'm "living in the past",but I refuse to spend my money on crap like this...

Let the young ones enjoy this crap!

SoulAlive said:

When it comes to R&B,I mostly listen to the great music from the past (60s,70s,and early 80s).Some would say that I'm "living in the past",but I refuse to spend my money on crap like this...

Let the young ones enjoy this crap!

Beyonce's "music" is trash! Why did you post this? LOL She's not even a real R&B singer. I was in the car with someone last week when a Beyonce song came on the radio. Oh my god, the longest 3 minutes and 30 seconds of my life! Absolute shit.

I'd rather listen to Migos LOL

I like 7/11, but don't really care about the video. Here's one of my fave DC songs.

See but tossing a remix by the legendary Maurice Joshua cannot validate DC. I was just thinking about how ridiculous that DC song "Jumpin Jumpin" is the other night, how do I know all the words to this? What is this an infidelity anthem? Maurice was on some other shit with those disco mixes tho, he really tried.

JKOOLMUSIC said:

What is this an infidelity anthem?

What's new about that?

If you like orchestral string based r and b, check out Kadja Bonet.

Kwabs is a solid r and b artist.

Crossover

&

Some folks think others folks ice water is so much colder. ...

JKOOLMUSIC said:

Co-sign with Lowkey there is no rhythm without real humans playing instruments involved. Its just programming.

There is no blues because our music has become advertorial (cars, clothes, beverages) and self-fulfilling... they talk about what they have, how they got or are getting it, and why they deserve it in most cases. What happened to R&B music is that both rhythm and blues have become passe. No one wants to hear sad songs because the world is really fuckin depressing enough in 2016.

I liked when it was swinging more towards the word "soul", an undefined term like "love" because its hard to package, capture, or snuff out the essence of something intangible. Just a few cents.

MickyDolenz said:

JKOOLMUSIC said:

What is this an infidelity anthem?

What's new about that?

.

well this instance was 3/4 teen-ish chicks who were just singing about "pay my bills" and "say my name" suddenly looking for "pockets full grown". It was a call to action for both sexes lol i get when fellas do it. that beyonce, breaking down walls one at a time.

JKOOLMUSIC said:

MickyDolenz said:

What's new about that?

.

well this instance was 3/4 teen-ish chicks who were just singing about "pay my bills" and "say my name" suddenly looking for "pockets full grown". It was a call to action for both sexes lol i get when fellas do it. that beyonce, breaking down walls one at a time.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic

JKOOLMUSIC said:

well this instance was 3/4 teen-ish chicks who were just singing about "pay my bills" and "say my name" suddenly looking for "pockets full grown". It was a call to action for both sexes lol i get when fellas do it. that beyonce, breaking down walls one at a time.

These were teens too. Not all teen acts sang Debbie Gibson type songs.

SeventeenDayze said:

You know what else is to blame? The excessive use of drum beats in "traditional" R&B. I swear, I can hardly listen to some R&B artists because it seems like they are using the same sappy, tired sounding beats in the background or whatever. I'm not a musician so I can't describe it but it sounds so dull and it hurts my ears. I enjoy trap music more than most R&B because at least in trap they have a bit more variety in the beats LOL Remember this song? This is a prime example of the convergence of the two genres that are now joined at the hip:

OMG! This Youtube did not show up on page two so I clicked back to page one to see what your prime example was.

Breaks my heart because I loved Xscape, especially "Just Kickin' It", but yes it was a total hip hop approach to producing R&B. I guess you could go back to the success of Bell Biv DeVoe being produced by The Bomb Squad (Public Enemy). I think '80s New Jack Swing was even sorta different from the permutation of BBD, TLC, Xscape.

I realize now there is still a lot of R&B that does not go pop, but it still has the production of something aiming at the pop charts.

SeventeenDayze said:

JKOOLMUSIC said:

.

well this instance was 3/4 teen-ish chicks who were just singing about "pay my bills" and "say my name" suddenly looking for "pockets full grown". It was a call to action for both sexes lol i get when fellas do it. that beyonce, breaking down walls one at a time.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic

.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. I know Bey, Kel, and friend(s) are merely pretty, marginally talented puppets in bikinis 99.9% of the time.

.

Rhythm & Blues was once about "the blues" (negative things, love lost, money lost, family lost) presented in the "new style" while style has certainly evolved and modern culture has become the antithesis of the blues (pimps/ballers, making it rain, your one and only, not knowing how beautiful you are, etc.).

.

Its not cool to lament about your shortcomings now, no matter how achingly beautiful and poetic that may be, because the audience is implied to "have" or to be the desired object itself. R&B was amazing but so were rotary phones and I just don't see either ever really having a popular resurgence.

The blues wasn't only music about sad topics. There's many blues songs about partying, bragging about Cadillacs, doing drugs, how many women the singer has, their dog, etc.

JKOOLMUSIC said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Please tell me you're being sarcastic

.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. I know Bey, Kel, and friend(s) are merely pretty, marginally talented puppets in bikinis 99.9% of the time.

.

Rhythm & Blues was once about "the blues" (negative things, love lost, money lost, family lost) presented in the "new style" while style has certainly evolved and modern culture has become the antithesis of the blues (pimps/ballers, making it rain, your one and only, not knowing how beautiful you are, etc.).

.

Its not cool to lament about your shortcomings now, no matter how achingly beautiful and poetic that may be, because the audience is implied to "have" or to be the desired object itself. R&B was amazing but so were rotary phones and I just don't see either ever really having a popular resurgence.

OK thanks for clarifying that It's bad enough BeYAWNce paints herself as some sort of feminist while simultaneously wearing blonde weaves, makeup that's 10 shades lighter than she is and doing questionable/highly sexualized "dancing" on stage. Some feminist!

Here's some clips from a recent Saturday Night Live

Cinny said:

SeventeenDayze said:

You know what else is to blame? The excessive use of drum beats in "traditional" R&B. I swear, I can hardly listen to some R&B artists because it seems like they are using the same sappy, tired sounding beats in the background or whatever. I'm not a musician so I can't describe it but it sounds so dull and it hurts my ears. I enjoy trap music more than most R&B because at least in trap they have a bit more variety in the beats LOL Remember this song? This is a prime example of the convergence of the two genres that are now joined at the hip:

OMG! This Youtube did not show up on page two so I clicked back to page one to see what your prime example was.

Breaks my heart because I loved Xscape, especially "Just Kickin' It", but yes it was a total hip hop approach to producing R&B. I guess you could go back to the success of Bell Biv DeVoe being produced by The Bomb Squad (Public Enemy). I think '80s New Jack Swing was even sorta different from the permutation of BBD, TLC, Xscape.

I realize now there is still a lot of R&B that does not go pop, but it still has the production of something aiming at the pop charts.

What up Cinny!!! Yes, I liked Xcape too, there was a good episode of "Unsung" on TV One about them a few months ago. Typical story of the rise to fame, huge egos, the demise, the bitterness, etc. I really think the architect of large-scale hip-hop/R&B mix is Teddy Riley.

SoulAlive said:

When it comes to R&B,I mostly listen to the great music from the past (60s,70s,and early 80s).Some would say that I'm "living in the past",but I refuse to spend my money on crap like this...

Let the young ones enjoy this crap!

PREACH! I live in the past too, when we had "real" R&B.

MickyDolenz said:

I like 7/11, but don't really care about the video. Here's one of my fave DC songs.

In my opinion, "Bills Bills Bills" and "No Scrubs" are the exact point when R&B ventured past the point of no return: ignorant lyrics and bastard tracks that sold way too much for the good of the genre.

Cinny said:

In my opinion, "Bills Bills Bills" and "No Scrubs" are the exact point when R&B ventured past the point of no return: ignorant lyrics and bastard tracks that sold way too much for the good of the genre.

Swing Out Sister likes No Scrubs

MickyDolenz said:

Cinny said:

In my opinion, "Bills Bills Bills" and "No Scrubs" are the exact point when R&B ventured past the point of no return: ignorant lyrics and bastard tracks that sold way too much for the good of the genre.

Swing Out Sister likes No Scrubs

A LOT of people like those songs, but when the songs came out, I am sure they were meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Now, they're considered poetry. THAT'S "What Happened to R&B Music".

Cinny said:

A LOT of people like those songs, but when the songs came out, I am sure they were meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Now, they're considered poetry. THAT'S "What Happened to R&B Music".

Nothing happened to R&B other than conglomerates like Clear Channel buying up radio stations all over the USA and making identical playlists often played by computer instead of disc jockeys. There's nothing really different about No Scrubs or Bills, Bills Bills subject wise than what people like Denise LaSalle, Bobby Rush, & Marvin Sease were doing other than the updated slang. Denise & Bobby have been around since the 1960s. There's no difference in Bills Bills Bills and these songs

MickyDolenz said:

Nothing happened to R&B other than conglomerates like Clear Channel buying up radio stations all over the USA and making identical playlists often played by computer instead of disc jockeys. There's nothing really different about No Scrubs or Bills, Bills Bills subject wise than what people like Denise LaSalle, Bobby Rush, & Marvin Sease were doing other than the updated slang. Denise & Bobby have been around since the 1960s. There's no difference in Bills Bills Bills and these songs

This has probably already been stated, but I'll say again anyway that the lessened presence of solo and group singers with live bands broadcast on the airwaves makes some of the difference in perception between new/old--bad/good. Programmed sonic tracks can conjure good artistic statements and great entertainment, but the lack of variety and complete substitution of old voices with the new ones is wearisome for most who know more about the genre than the average younger listener.

MickyDolenz said:

Cinny said:

A LOT of people like those songs, but when the songs came out, I am sure they were meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Now, they're considered poetry. THAT'S "What Happened to R&B Music".

Nothing happened to R&B other than conglomerates like Clear Channel buying up radio stations all over the USA and making identical playlists often played by computer instead of disc jockeys. There's nothing really different about No Scrubs or Bills, Bills Bills subject wise than what people like Denise LaSalle, Bobby Rush, & Marvin Sease were doing other than the updated slang. Denise & Bobby have been around since the 1960s. There's no difference in Bills Bills Bills and these songs

Sure there's no difference ("automo-bills").. Updated with what? Plastic fraud beats?