Graycap23 said:

duccichucka said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

I Just Can't Stop Loving You:

MJ starts off Bad, like Thriller, with a simple duet. But there is no deep meaning behind the song like The Girl is Mine which clearly addresses social issues such as miscegenation. IJCSLY could have been a song released by Klymaxx, Atlantic Starr or other run of the mill acts of the time. MJ's voice doesn't have much contrast to Siedah Garret's either. Had Whitney accepted to sing on this duet, it would have been much stronger with Houston and Jackson showcasing their vocal talents. Siedah Garret doesn't have a distinct enough voice to make this any more than a schmaltzy 80s duet that was average at best. At some points it's difficult to know if MJ or Siedah is singing the line.

Bad:

This song was clearly written for bigger things like a duet with Prince or a rapping interlude from LL Cool J. Since MJ couldn't land either, the chorus is and overused so much that it leaves the listener feeling empty because the song doesn't sound complete. MJ tries to recreate Beat It but falls far short of the classic. It lacks the innovation, powerful lyrics and developed song structure that Beat It had in spades. The term, Bad, has been around since the mid 1970s so this week attempt to sound street-tough is flat.

Dirty Diana:

A song with the weakest lyrics on the Bad album. MJ tries to make this a heavy metal power house about groupies but it can't over come the simple uninspired, lazy writing such as this:

She Said I Have To Go Home
'Cause I'm Real Tired You See
But I Hate Sleepin' Alone
Why Don't You Come With
Me
I Said My Baby's At Home
She's Probably Worried
Tonight

I Didn't Call On The Phone To
Say That I'm Alright

Diana Walked Up To Me,
She Said I'm All Yours
Tonight
At That I Ran To The Phone
Sayin' Baby I'm Alright
I Said But Unlock The Door,
Because I Forgot The Key,
She Said He's Not Coming
Back

Great guitar riffs from Stevie Stevens though. Give in to Me was a much better heavy metal song with more sophisticated writing. In additon, MJ had already written Billie Jean which was a more believable premise as a song.

Prince even said the album was titled Bad because there wasn't enough room to call it "Pathetic" and for an album that was 5 years in the making, it didn't live up to the hype or anticipation.

A good pop album but Bad will never be in the same league as Thriller or Off The Wall which were great albums. It's also overproduced with too many of MJ's trademark hees hees and hoo hoos.

These are not reasons why a song shouldn't have been number one. These are merely
reasons why you don't like a song.

You asked why I didn't think the songs were No.1 material and I gave you my answer.

IJCSLY was nothing if Whitney Houston didn't take part and she didn't. Neither did Barbara Striesand. Without more star power, this song should not have topped the charts as MJ's star power was waning fast in America. As I said, Siedah doesn't provide this duet the needed punch for it to be huge and her voice was indistinguishable from Jackson's.

Bad was a weak song. So weak that after two weeks, crap like Could've Been from teenybopper Tiffany kicked it off the top. Too repetitive with no substance or real musical hook. And "Bad" is a slang from the 70s so it doesn't even give the song street-credibility, so those into hip hop likely had no interest in it.

Dirty Diana is a poor man's heavy metal version of Billie Jean. And metal fans weren't exactly too fond of Michael Jackson and his new look by 1987, which is who this song was geared towards.

The public wanted knew topics, not topics about street gangs and groupies all over again. If they wanted songs about that from Jackson, they'd listen to Beat It and Billie Jean instead because they were infinitely better. Not my opinion, but the opinion of the American public at large, the 14-15 million Americans that decided to pass on Bad after supporting Thriller.

Maybe late 87-88 was easy for artists to get No.1s. Whitney Houston and George Michael both managed four No.1s off their albums around that time too.

If my explanation is unsatisfactory to you, so be it. I have nothing against the songs. Why don't you tell me why they deserve to be No.1s if you disagree with me.

MichaelJackson5 said:

crap like Could've Been from teenybopper Tiffany kicked it off the top.

I'm one of the people who bought Could've Been, so I like it.

NorthC said:

Graycap23 said:

What aside from the VIDEO's was ground breaking about Thriller?

Just so that I'm clear, I'm NOT talking about the video side of Thriller.

What musically was ground breaking about it?

Musically, maybe not so much, but I was thinking more in making him a worldwide superstar. So if you want to replace "groundbreaking" with "massively popular", be my guest. Just trying to say something nice about Mr. Jackson after dissing him for most of my post!

Ok. That makes more sense to me.

NorthC said:

In Holland it was Rick Astley's Never Gonna Give You Up that kicked Jackson's Bad off the # 1 spot after only one week. So yes, the hype surrounding that album was wearing off pretty quickly. Altough it still sold millions of course, but to say it was THE musical event of the year...not really. I think U2's The Joshua Tree was the best selling album of that year.

For sure, and then Joshua Tree cleaned up at The Grammys.

NorthC said:

I think U2's The Joshua Tree was the best selling album of that year.

I thought it was either Slippery When Wet by Bon Jovi or Licensed To Ill by the Beastie Boys (at least in the US).

MichaelJackson5 said:

Bon Jovi was huge in America at the time and supplanted Bruce Springsteen as the biggest act out of New Jersey.

MichaelJackson5 said:

duccichucka said:

These are not reasons why a song shouldn't have been number one. These are merely
reasons why you don't like a song.

You asked why I didn't think the songs were No.1 material and I gave you my answer.

IJCSLY was nothing if Whitney Houston didn't take part and she didn't. Neither did Barbara Striesand. Without more star power, this song should not have topped the charts as MJ's star power was waning fast in America. As I said, Siedah doesn't provide this duet the needed punch for it to be huge and her voice was indistinguishable from Jackson's.

Bad was a weak song. So weak that after two weeks, crap like Could've Been from teenybopper Tiffany kicked it off the top. Too repetitive with no substance or real musical hook. And "Bad" is a slang from the 70s so it doesn't even give the song street-credibility, so those into hip hop likely had no interest in it.

Dirty Diana is a poor man's heavy metal version of Billie Jean. And metal fans weren't exactly too fond of Michael Jackson and his new look by 1987, which is who this song was geared towards.

The public wanted knew topics, not topics about street gangs and groupies all over again. If they wanted songs about that from Jackson, they'd listen to Beat It and Billie Jean instead because they were infinitely better. Not my opinion, but the opinion of the American public at large, the 14-15 million Americans that decided to pass on Bad after supporting Thriller.

Maybe late 87-88 was easy for artists to get No.1s. Whitney Houston and George Michael both managed four No.1s off their albums around that time too.

If my explanation is unsatisfactory to you, so be it. I have nothing against the songs. Why don't you tell me why they deserve to be No.1s if you disagree with me.

These are not reasons! For example: you think "I Just Can't Stop Loving You" didnt deserve
to be a number one because it lacked proper "star power." That' such an arbitrary way to
assess the merits of a song becoming number one. There are TONS of songs that became
number one with singers who didn't have "star power."

You say "Bad" is a weak song; but there are TONS of "weak songs" (I wish you would define
this term, but I know what you mean) that became number one. You also criticize "Bad" for
lacking street cred; this is ridiculous. There are TONS of songs that became number one that
didn't have "street cred."

Your reasons for considering "Dirty Diana" unworthy of any special distinction like being number
one is also ridiculous. Just because metal fans were turned off by this tune doesn't mean that
it doesn't deserve a number one ranking - another arbitrary way for assessment on your part.

Asking me to tell you why these songs deserve to be number one is not my point. My point
was to only discover how you determine a song deserves to be number one. And it looks like
your criteria for songs becoming number one doesn't really have any consistency and doesn't
appeal to some type of musical standard. All you are doing here is just telling us why you
don't like these songs. But there are TONS of songs that became number one despite you
or me disliking them. But here's my real point:

I don't think there is a sturdy blueprint that is inviolable and can tell us how/why a song becomes
number one - it's almost like a crap shoot, for the public's taste is just so fluid and dynamic.
I appreciate how thoughtful your posts are, though. This forum is filled with dimwits and nitwits.

MickyDolenz said:

U2 deserved their top billing.

They captured the zietgiest that year.

duccichucka said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

You asked why I didn't think the songs were No.1 material and I gave you my answer.

IJCSLY was nothing if Whitney Houston didn't take part and she didn't. Neither did Barbara Striesand. Without more star power, this song should not have topped the charts as MJ's star power was waning fast in America. As I said, Siedah doesn't provide this duet the needed punch for it to be huge and her voice was indistinguishable from Jackson's.

Bad was a weak song. So weak that after two weeks, crap like Could've Been from teenybopper Tiffany kicked it off the top. Too repetitive with no substance or real musical hook. And "Bad" is a slang from the 70s so it doesn't even give the song street-credibility, so those into hip hop likely had no interest in it.

Dirty Diana is a poor man's heavy metal version of Billie Jean. And metal fans weren't exactly too fond of Michael Jackson and his new look by 1987, which is who this song was geared towards.

The public wanted knew topics, not topics about street gangs and groupies all over again. If they wanted songs about that from Jackson, they'd listen to Beat It and Billie Jean instead because they were infinitely better. Not my opinion, but the opinion of the American public at large, the 14-15 million Americans that decided to pass on Bad after supporting Thriller.

Maybe late 87-88 was easy for artists to get No.1s. Whitney Houston and George Michael both managed four No.1s off their albums around that time too.

If my explanation is unsatisfactory to you, so be it. I have nothing against the songs. Why don't you tell me why they deserve to be No.1s if you disagree with me.

These are not reasons! For example: you think "I Just Can't Stop Loving You" didnt deserve
to be a number one because it lacked proper "star power." That' such an arbitrary way to
assess the merits of a song becoming number one. There are TONS of songs that became
number one with singers who didn't have "star power."

You say "Bad" is a weak song; but there are TONS of "weak songs" (I wish you would define
this term, but I know what you mean) that became number one. You also criticize "Bad" for
lacking street cred; this is ridiculous. There are TONS of songs that became number one that
didn't have "street cred."

Your reasons for considering "Dirty Diana" unworthy of any special distinction like being number
one is also ridiculous. Just because metal fans were turned off by this tune doesn't mean that
it doesn't deserve a number one ranking - another arbitrary way for assessment on your part.

Asking me to tell you why these songs deserve to be number one is not my point. My point
was to only discover how you determine a song deserves to be number one. And it looks like
your criteria for songs becoming number one doesn't really have any consistency and doesn't
appeal to some type of musical standard. All you are doing here is just telling us why you
don't like these songs. But there are TONS of songs that became number one despite you
or me disliking them. But here's my real point:

I don't think there is a sturdy blueprint that is inviolable and can tell us how/why a song becomes
number one - it's almost like a crap shoot, for the public's taste is just so fluid and dynamic.
I appreciate how thoughtful your posts are, though. This forum is filled with dimwits and nitwits.

I don't want to offend fellow MJ fans here. But when it comes down to it, Michael Jackson had much less star power in America after he changed his face.

Most of his African American fans stopped supporting Bad. That's a huge demographic there.

The majority of white suburban teenage girls also didn't find him appealing any longer and teenage boys followed.

Nobody at my college was talking about him or playing his music. There didn't seem to be much support from young adults.

The adults, which Thriller and OTW appealled to, were also abandoning him in droves.

The only group that he had a grip on were young kids 14 and under. That's why his 4 part Pepsi commercial, The Price of Fame, played out like a video game.

The storyline for the Smooth Criminal video was equally childish. These young kids made up the majority of his fan base in America.

This is why MJ needed Whitney Houston for IJCSLY. It's why he wanted Prince for Bad. He probably realized around mid 1986 that he was taking a huge gamble with his surgical transformation. And he miscalculated with that gamble.

So while lesser songs have reached No.1, MJ songs and especially his videos, limited his potential for massive No.1 hits or even one week chart-toppers.

Most of the singles from the Bad album had a short chart run and tapered off very fast straight out of the Top 40 on the pop charts. Stations played the singles heavily the first 4-5 weeks so the possibility of payola is definitely there given that most people no longer professed to be Michael Jackson fans in the United States....at least not openly in public. Most folks were embarassed to even admit liking him or his music from 1987 onward so probably weren't calling stations to request his songs.

So it is odd that a man whose primary fans were pre-pubescent children managed 5 consecutive No.1 singles when that demographic has never dictated radio play to such an extent.

There were skits on Saturday Night Live in the late 80s poking fun at Michael Jackson, and in a vicious fashion. It wasn't "cool" to like Michael Jackson after all the strange stories and plastic surgery that made him nearly unrecognizable to his former fans.

Check out this new report the day of the album's release:

MichaelJackson5 said:

It wasn't "cool" to like Michael Jackson

When has being cool determined someones popularity? Barbra Striesand, Billy Joel, Phil Collins, Barry Manilow, Kenny G, James Taylor, Carole King, Whitney Houston, John Denver, Wilson Phillips, Kenny Rogers, Bryan Adams, and many others weren't considered hip but yet sold lots of records. In the 1980s, Bob Hope TV specials were popular and he wasn't "cool" at all. Other than a few exceptions like Miami Vice, I wouldn't say most of the popular network TV shows of the time were considered cool and they generally had a wider or bigger audience than the average music act. Was Matlock, Wheel Of Fortune, Newhart, The Facts Of Life, and Knots Landing cool? Huey Lewis & The News even had a hit called Hip To Be Square.

.

Most songs that hit #1 during the entire history of Billboard & Cashbox didn't stay there for any long period of time. So I don't know what that has to do with anything. I think Elvis Presley had the record until Whitney Houston or Boyz II Men. #1 on the Top 100 singles is not the only way to determine popularity. Some acts were more popular with albums than the Top 40 like Pink Floyd, Beastie Boys, & Metallica. Grateful Dead was popular with touring.

duccichucka said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

I Just Can't Stop Loving You:

MJ starts off Bad, like Thriller, with a simple duet. But there is no deep meaning behind the song like The Girl is Mine which clearly addresses social issues such as miscegenation. IJCSLY could have been a song released by Klymaxx, Atlantic Starr or other run of the mill acts of the time. MJ's voice doesn't have much contrast to Siedah Garret's either. Had Whitney accepted to sing on this duet, it would have been much stronger with Houston and Jackson showcasing their vocal talents. Siedah Garret doesn't have a distinct enough voice to make this any more than a schmaltzy 80s duet that was average at best. At some points it's difficult to know if MJ or Siedah is singing the line.

Bad:

This song was clearly written for bigger things like a duet with Prince or a rapping interlude from LL Cool J. Since MJ couldn't land either, the chorus is and overused so much that it leaves the listener feeling empty because the song doesn't sound complete. MJ tries to recreate Beat It but falls far short of the classic. It lacks the innovation, powerful lyrics and developed song structure that Beat It had in spades. The term, Bad, has been around since the mid 1970s so this week attempt to sound street-tough is flat.

Dirty Diana:

A song with the weakest lyrics on the Bad album. MJ tries to make this a heavy metal power house about groupies but it can't over come the simple uninspired, lazy writing such as this:

She Said I Have To Go Home
'Cause I'm Real Tired You See
But I Hate Sleepin' Alone
Why Don't You Come With
Me
I Said My Baby's At Home
She's Probably Worried
Tonight

I Didn't Call On The Phone To
Say That I'm Alright

Diana Walked Up To Me,
She Said I'm All Yours
Tonight
At That I Ran To The Phone
Sayin' Baby I'm Alright
I Said But Unlock The Door,
Because I Forgot The Key,
She Said He's Not Coming
Back

Great guitar riffs from Stevie Stevens though. Give in to Me was a much better heavy metal song with more sophisticated writing. In additon, MJ had already written Billie Jean which was a more believable premise as a song.

Prince even said the album was titled Bad because there wasn't enough room to call it "Pathetic" and for an album that was 5 years in the making, it didn't live up to the hype or anticipation.

A good pop album but Bad will never be in the same league as Thriller or Off The Wall which were great albums. It's also overproduced with too many of MJ's trademark hees hees and hoo hoos.

These are not reasons why a song shouldn't have been number one. These are merely
reasons why you don't like a song.

Agree. He just wants to turn this into another MJ bash thread. Its obsessed with bashing MJ:lol:

[Edited 12/8/15 17:46pm]

MichaelJackson5 said:

duccichucka said:

These are not reasons! For example: you think "I Just Can't Stop Loving You" didnt deserve
to be a number one because it lacked proper "star power." That' such an arbitrary way to
assess the merits of a song becoming number one. There are TONS of songs that became
number one with singers who didn't have "star power."

You say "Bad" is a weak song; but there are TONS of "weak songs" (I wish you would define
this term, but I know what you mean) that became number one. You also criticize "Bad" for
lacking street cred; this is ridiculous. There are TONS of songs that became number one that
didn't have "street cred."

Your reasons for considering "Dirty Diana" unworthy of any special distinction like being number
one is also ridiculous. Just because metal fans were turned off by this tune doesn't mean that
it doesn't deserve a number one ranking - another arbitrary way for assessment on your part.

Asking me to tell you why these songs deserve to be number one is not my point. My point
was to only discover how you determine a song deserves to be number one. And it looks like
your criteria for songs becoming number one doesn't really have any consistency and doesn't
appeal to some type of musical standard. All you are doing here is just telling us why you
don't like these songs. But there are TONS of songs that became number one despite you
or me disliking them. But here's my real point:

I don't think there is a sturdy blueprint that is inviolable and can tell us how/why a song becomes
number one - it's almost like a crap shoot, for the public's taste is just so fluid and dynamic.
I appreciate how thoughtful your posts are, though. This forum is filled with dimwits and nitwits.

I don't want to offend fellow MJ fans here. But when it comes down to it, Michael Jackson had much less star power in America after he changed his face.

Most of his African American fans stopped supporting Bad. That's a huge demographic there.

The majority of white suburban teenage girls also didn't find him appealing any longer and teenage boys followed.

Nobody at my college was talking about him or playing his music. There didn't seem to be much support from young adults.

The adults, which Thriller and OTW appealled to, were also abandoning him in droves.

The only group that he had a grip on were young kids 14 and under. That's why his 4 part Pepsi commercial, The Price of Fame, played out like a video game.

The storyline for the Smooth Criminal video was equally childish. These young kids made up the majority of his fan base in America.

This is why MJ needed Whitney Houston for IJCSLY. It's why he wanted Prince for Bad. He probably realized around mid 1986 that he was taking a huge gamble with his surgical transformation. And he miscalculated with that gamble.

So while lesser songs have reached No.1, MJ songs and especially his videos, limited his potential for massive No.1 hits or even one week chart-toppers.

Most of the singles from the Bad album had a short chart run and tapered off very fast straight out of the Top 40 on the pop charts. Stations played the singles heavily the first 4-5 weeks so the possibility of payola is definitely there given that most people no longer professed to be Michael Jackson fans in the United States....at least not openly in public. Most folks were embarassed to even admit liking him or his music from 1987 onward so probably weren't calling stations to request his songs.

So it is odd that a man whose primary fans were pre-pubescent children managed 5 consecutive No.1 singles when that demographic has never dictated radio play to such an extent.

There were skits on Saturday Night Live in the late 80s poking fun at Michael Jackson, and in a vicious fashion. It wasn't "cool" to like Michael Jackson after all the strange stories and plastic surgery that made him nearly unrecognizable to his former fans.

Check out this new report the day of the album's release:

Your post just shows, that americans are superficial idiots, nothing more. In many countries around the world he surpassed Thriller with Bad and it became his commercial peak.

PatrickS77 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

I don't want to offend fellow MJ fans here. But when it comes down to it, Michael Jackson had much less star power in America after he changed his face.

Most of his African American fans stopped supporting Bad. That's a huge demographic there.

The majority of white suburban teenage girls also didn't find him appealing any longer and teenage boys followed.

Nobody at my college was talking about him or playing his music. There didn't seem to be much support from young adults.

The adults, which Thriller and OTW appealled to, were also abandoning him in droves.

The only group that he had a grip on were young kids 14 and under. That's why his 4 part Pepsi commercial, The Price of Fame, played out like a video game.

The storyline for the Smooth Criminal video was equally childish. These young kids made up the majority of his fan base in America.

This is why MJ needed Whitney Houston for IJCSLY. It's why he wanted Prince for Bad. He probably realized around mid 1986 that he was taking a huge gamble with his surgical transformation. And he miscalculated with that gamble.

So while lesser songs have reached No.1, MJ songs and especially his videos, limited his potential for massive No.1 hits or even one week chart-toppers.

Most of the singles from the Bad album had a short chart run and tapered off very fast straight out of the Top 40 on the pop charts. Stations played the singles heavily the first 4-5 weeks so the possibility of payola is definitely there given that most people no longer professed to be Michael Jackson fans in the United States....at least not openly in public. Most folks were embarassed to even admit liking him or his music from 1987 onward so probably weren't calling stations to request his songs.

So it is odd that a man whose primary fans were pre-pubescent children managed 5 consecutive No.1 singles when that demographic has never dictated radio play to such an extent.

There were skits on Saturday Night Live in the late 80s poking fun at Michael Jackson, and in a vicious fashion. It wasn't "cool" to like Michael Jackson after all the strange stories and plastic surgery that made him nearly unrecognizable to his former fans.

Check out this new report the day of the album's release:

Your post just shows, that americans are superficial idiots, nothing more. In many countries around the world he surpassed Thriller with Bad and it became his commercial peak.

Americans ain't idiots, we all live on the same planet........

the fact is none of Michael's subsequent albums after Thriller did not surpass it

His international sales were at its peak with Thriller

it was his tours internationally that gave the impression that Bad, Dangerous, History sold greater than Thriller but that was not the case........

Thriller sold 47 million copies during its initial run selling 25 million copies domestically, so the other 22 million were sold overseas

Bad sold 25 million during it's initial run, where 6-8 million copies domesticall, and the remaining 17-19 million overseas

Dangerous sold 20 million copies during its initial run, selling 4-6 million copies domesticlaly, the remaining 14-16 million copies overseas

History sold 15 million copies worldwide, selling 3-5 million copies domestically and the remaining 10-12 million overseas

So y'all think this letter is legit huh? Celebrities paying for awards, accolades, titles, hype, etc. has been going on for decades and is nothing new. But where did this letter come from? Who or where is the source? Anybody could have created this 'resignation letter to Billboard' and posted it up on the internet. Internet hoaxes happen all the time, just sayin.

MickyDolenz said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

It wasn't "cool" to like Michael Jackson

When has being cool determined someones popularity? Barbra Striesand, Billy Joel, Phil Collins, Barry Manilow, Kenny G, James Taylor, Carole King, Whitney Houston, John Denver, Wilson Phillips, Kenny Rogers, Bryan Adams, and many others weren't considered hip but yet sold lots of records. In the 1980s, Bob Hope TV specials were popular and he wasn't "cool" at all. Other than a few exceptions like Miami Vice, I wouldn't say most of the popular network TV shows of the time were considered cool and they generally had a wider or bigger audience than the average music act. Was Matlock, Wheel Of Fortune, Newhart, The Facts Of Life, and Knots Landing cool? Huey Lewis & The News even had a hit called Hip To Be Square.

.

Most songs that hit #1 during the entire history of Billboard & Cashbox didn't stay there for any long period of time. So I don't know what that has to do with anything. I think Elvis Presley had the record until Whitney Houston or Boyz II Men. #1 on the Top 100 singles is not the only way to determine popularity. Some acts were more popular with albums than the Top 40 like Pink Floyd, Beastie Boys, & Metallica. Grateful Dead was popular with touring.

The difference is that during the Thriller Era, it was cool to support Michael Jackson. Kids wore Beat It jackets to school and even young adults wore MJ stuff to nightclubs.

While Streisand, Billy Joel, Houston, Bryan Adams, Kenny Rogers, James Taylor and Carole King were never cool they were respected artists, repected by their peers, the public and by the media.

With Jackson, he went from being the coolest and one of the most respected artist on the planet to being a joke in just 3 years after Thriller completed it's run. Nobody was wearing his outfits from Bad or The Way You Make Me Feel. If people liked him, they mostly kept it to themselves or got responses like "you actually like that weird freak?"

MJ went from The Gloved One to Wacko Jacko in about 2-3 years.

This is MJ's own fault for pursuing surgery to look racially and sexually agnostic by late 1986; in addition, all the stories about him sleeping in hyperbaric chambers, pursuing John Merrick's remains and having a shrine dedicated to Liz Taylor turned most of the public against him. He never needed another surgical procedure after 1983 and he certainly didn't need to plant those stories about himself in the tabloids.

As for your comment on Number 1 songs, it's a fact that I Just Can't Stop Loving You and Bad were two of the fastest falling No.1s in Billboard Hot 100 history, dropping out of the Top 40 just weeks after reaching the top.

If you don't believe me, take a look at this snapshot of the Hot 100 for the week September 19, 1987 which was the week I Just Can't Stop Loving You reached No.1:

http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100/1987-09-19

Within just three weeks on October 10th, it was out of the Top 20 at No.23:

http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100/1987-10-10

By October 24th, it was down to No.62.

http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100/1987-10-24

One week later, it was at No. 77.

http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100/1987-10-31

I'm pretty certain CBS Records wanted both IJCSLY and Bad to be in the Top 5 simultaneously. A strategy that worked perfectly for Billie Jean and Beat It. But just six weeks after topping the charts, IJCSLY had already fallen 76 positions. Bad only faired slightly better.

Most No.1 songs in the 70s and 80s didn't fall that quick out of the Top 40. Only the Bee Gees managed a similar distinction with Tragedy and Too Much Heaven back in 1979 and nobody respected the Bee Gees that year as they were the poster boys for disco's demise. In fact, it was down right embarassing to be even whistling a Bee Gee tune in public by that point.

[Edited 12/8/15 20:55pm]

^^Why did you single out certain acts? What about Bob Hope, John Denver, Wilson Phillips, & Kenny G? They were popular too, especially Kenny. He's probably the main person to popularize smooth jazz to the general public. As far as surgery goes, it didn't hurt Cher's career. Since you're so concerned about popularity falling, what about Prince's Purple Rain & the albums that came after it? Now that's a big drop. Bruce Springsteen never matched the sales of Born In The USA either, nor did other acts that had really big albums like Alanis Morissette, Shaggy, Norah Jones, George Michael, INXS, Guns & Roses, MC Hammer, Santana, etc. The 2 biggest selling Van Halen albums were with David Lee Roth, but Van Hagar had more hit singles.

.

Who cares about somebody's music being respected? Respect doesn't sell records and never really has. If that's the case, jazz, blues, & classical records would have blockbuster sales. Most of James Brown's albums never really sold that much. Most people do not read record reviews or music magazines. They hear something on the radio or at a club and decide if they like it. All I care about is if I like it or not. Just because some paid critic says something is good, bad, or cool does not make it so. It's just their opinion.

MickyDolenz said:

^^Why did you single out certain acts? What about Bob Hope, John Denver, Wilson Phillips, & Kenny G? They were popular too, especially Kenny. He's probably the main person to popularize smooth jazz to the general public. As far as surgery goes, it didn't hurt Cher's career. Since you're so concerned about popularity falling, what about Prince's Purple Rain & the albums that came after it? Now that's a big drop. Bruce Springsteen never matched the sales of Born In The USA either, nor did other acts that had really big albums like Alanis Morissette, Shaggy, Norah Jones, George Michael, INXS, Guns & Roses, MC Hammer, Santana, etc. The 2 biggest selling Van Halen albums were with David Lee Roth, but Van Hagar had more hit singles.

.

Who cares about somebody's music being respected? Respect doesn't sell records and never really has. If that's the case, jazz, blues, & classical records would have blockbuster sales. Most of James Brown's albums never really sold that much. Most people do not read record reviews or music magazines. They hear something on the radio or at a club and decide if they like it. All I care about is if I like it or not. Just because some paid critic says something is good, bad, or cool does not make it so. It's just their opinion.

Cher's surgery didn't make her unrecognizable to the public. MJ's surgery did and made him look racially and sexually ambiguous.

Forget about respect or popularity. Did Michael Jackson, who already had surgery to improve his looks in the late 70s and early 80s, did his transformation help or hurt the sales of Bad in the US market? Were fans of Thriller, who could barely recognize the new Michael Jackson, wanting to purchase Bad with MJ's new nose, chin cleft, tatooed eyeliner?

The sales numbers would indicate the opposite. And this was the most anticipated album of the entire decade. It wasn't MC Hammer who was a novelty, Santana who's success in 1999 was just before the dawn of Napster, George Michael who wanted to break free from his image during Faith and write songs closer to his heart. Prince also didn't care about matching or beating Purple Rain's commercial success. But MJ did and wanted to sell 100 million copies of Bad.

True, some artists like INXS, Bruce Springsteen and Huey Lewis had a sound that people were tired of by the 1990s. That happens. Some artists are just one-album wonders like Alanis Morrissette.

Michael Jackson was an established artist since 1969. His base of fans in America was huge. People from all walks of life and all ages loved Thriller which was the culmination of his growing fan base in America. There isn't really a single reason for Bad's meagre sales in America, and 6 million is meagre when compared to the nearly 20 million copies of Thriller sold in the US. Keep in mind too, MJ had his fans wait 5 years until Bad was available. Michael Jackson albums were supposed to be a major event in the entire music industry as he only released albums ever 4-5 years on average and his international sales proved that as he still managed incredible numbers outside of the US for Bad, Dangerous and HIStory.

So MJ's face was well known by the mid 1980s by any American who wasn't living in a cave. Take that face and resculpt it into a different face.....does that sound like a good business strategy for the US market?

Once he changed his face, he lost continuity with his previous albums and millions of American fans in the process.

Even if MJ peaked with Thriller, he should have sold over 10 million copies of Bad if he just left his face as it was. Just look at that CBS news report I linked earlier....record buyers were not keen on his new look, to put it politely. And MJ lost massive support in every single demographic in America, with the exception of possibly young kids.

If you want a real comparison, look at Jennifer Grey, who's career fizzled after she had surgery on her Jewish nose. She no longer was distinct from other actresses out there and her career was all but over as nobody could even recognize her as "Baby" from Dirty Dancing.

http://www.afterplasticsurgery.com/jennifer-grey-plastic-surgery/

Jennifer Grey is a renowned American actress most known for her film roles in the 1980 films Dirty Dancing and Ferris Bueller’s Day Off. Her career has been successful with a Golden Globe Award nomination. She also made waves with her much recent victory in the 11th season of Dancing with the Stars, the American version in 2010. More recently news about Jennifer Grey plastic surgery has made her a subject to online criticism. The famous “nose job from hell” has landed her in trouble with many fans literally.

Many have been wondering about her current appearance with rumors going round on the number of cosmetic procedures she has had. Truth is that, yes, she did have a nose job or rhinoplasty and her intention was to have her distinctive nose bump removed. The opposite happened and instead she came out with her face looking entirely different. This was revealed after she confessed on media speculations claiming her surgery wasn’t what she had expected.

Jennifer Gray has probably had her lips injected with fillers. Most of her fans have admitted that she is one of the sexiest celebrities in Hollywood. They are all attracted to her pretty baby face, sensual lips and nice skin. She certainly doesn’t want to look old so she had removed wrinkles on her forehead and around her eyes.

She was quoted saying that she got into the operating theatre a known actress and a celebrity but left anonymous. Her nose job has made her totally unrecognizable by changing her facial appearance. She is now an actress who was once famous but isn’t recognized anymore thanks to her plastic surgery. Going through her before and after pictures she looks like two different people and the difference is too loud and significant.

Plastic surgery was meant to improve upon a person's natural appearance and MJ managed that, looked perfect by 1983 while still being visibly black and male in gender. Plastic surgery isn't meant for a man to remove any trace of his African heritage like MJ from Bad and beyond. It also wasn't invented for MJ to look more feminine unless he was transgender and MJ never claimed to be.

Hey, it's a free country and Jackson had the right to do whatever he wanted with his face. But if his intention was to top Thriller, and it was, he completely miscalculated by undergoing a transformation that left the majority of his fans dating back to his J5 days baffled and no longer supportive of him...especially his Black fans.

Dr. Sebi 11:27-13:43 / Morris Day 2:38

Rah Digga 0:23-2:00

I'm impressed.

MichaelJackson5 hijacked this thread like a BOSS, and with such ease to boot.

How Do you do it?

I'm so glad we don't hear about Elvis sightings anymore. Give it ten years or so, folks.

MickyDolenz said:

NorthC said:

I think U2's The Joshua Tree was the best selling album of that year.

I thought it was either Slippery When Wet by Bon Jovi or Licensed To Ill by the Beastie Boys (at least in the US).

Ooh, that hits home. That's is a more accurate memory.