...the way Justin Timberlake has been accused of?

This is a stupid thread and I love ya scriptgirl, but Music is Music no matter what skin color and just some people are born with SOUL...

Joe and that is what I was pointing out with this thread. The whole idea is stupid and I wanted to point that out. I will say I am not a huge Justin fan, but is more due to his personal life than his music.

Since Black's first album came out in 1987 and some of these acts came out before him, I'm not sure how they stole his music.

Stolen?

Nope...it's right here where we left it.

scriptgirl said:

Joe and that is what I was pointing out with this thread. The whole idea is stupid and I wanted to point that out. I will say I am not a huge Justin fan, but is more due to his personal life than his music.

Take for example Sara Bareillis whether you like her or not that lady has SOUL. Justin has his moments, is he the best nasal SOUL voice, no. There are not really are not any Aretha or Sam, but there some good ones. James Morrison and Elliot Yamin now we are talking, yeah they got the Stevie vibe, but darn they are good.

That was great, Micky. Black was great, anyway; just like black music is...

[Edited 5/21/14 5:23am]

How do you "steal" music?

MotorBootyAffair said:

How do you "steal" music?

You go into a store and shoplift it.

.

ginusher said:

Ah, yes, the early 80s, such a great time to shoplift cassettes.

aMickyDolenz said:

MotorBootyAffair said:

How do you "steal" music?

You go into a store and shoplift it.

Don't play naive guys. You know this is reactionary feelings. Black folks are sensitive about things like this. I suppose, and it's only a theory, that people feel that they are losing their culture to a pretty white face. You made this thread up as a joke response to the Justin board that keeps going and going. But I think the sentiment is shared with that article I posted about the guy who feels that since we have all the white kids doing the R&B and becoming successful at it, the climate has become one of '"who needs you" now that we've learned it'. it sounds kinda silly as I type it but there it is. Also can you imagine that happening in rock? There's no way a white audience will abandon their white artists just because a black artist makes some headway. It is after all a white world and the industry and media is run by white folks. MAYBE that's why there's this reaction. It might be irrational but it's a reaction nonetheless.

Blues, country , bluegrass, all played on this instrument no? Where did it come from though?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar#History

Blues contains elements of country and bluegrass or 'hillbilly' music all mixed with traditional African styles.

Rock and Roll is a mixture of blues , bluegrass, swing, be-bop, and country music. Yank out one influence and everything changes.

So really now, no one ever 'stole' from anybody. It's all one big jumble of styles and influances.

You want to talk about who got paid and who didn't? Well that's a whole other issue and you may win that arguement. But as far as the art and the artists that made it are concerned, no one invented anything and no one stole from anyone else.

CynicKill said:

Don't play naive guys. You know this is reactionary feelings. Black folks are sensitive about things like this. I suppose, and it's only a theory, that people feel that they are losing their culture to a pretty white face. You made this thread up as a joke response to the Justin board that keeps going and going. But I think the sentiment is shared with that article I posted about the guy who feels that since we have all the white kids doing the R&B and becoming successful at it, the climate has become one of '"who needs you" now that we've learned it'. it sounds kinda silly as I type it but there it is. Also can you imagine that happening in rock? There's no way a white audience will abandon their white artists just because a black artist makes some headway. It is after all a white world and the industry and media is run by white folks. MAYBE that's why there's this reaction. It might be irrational but it's a reaction nonetheless.

.

Thing is, it happened in rock 'n' roll. When the pretty-faced white kid teen idols had successfully appropriated it circa 1960, the AA artists were kind of like "You can have it", and moved on to other genres. (This is disregarding the white rock 'n' roll musicians who were taking their craft seriously)

.

Appropriation of genres that are 'in vogue' is going to happen. Bastardization is going to happen. But we can dwell on the bad exponents of this phenomenon and spend all this time and energy on analyzing how and why exactly it's that bad. Or, we can leave that stuff to the VMAs and the Top 40 stations, and focus on the modern innovators, the struggling talents, the hidden gems, regardless if they're black, white, Asian or et cetera.

.

Now I like JT. He's a good entertainer with an okay voice who puts a lot of enthusiasm into what he does and has an admirable work ethic. But I can get why someone would be gritting his teeth to see JT get all this spotlight media attention while the works of Bilal, Maxwell, or Eric Benét fly under the radar.

.

I'm part Afro-Caribbean part Pacific Islander living in a European smalltown that's 99% Caucasian. I know of ethnic dynamics and perceptions in media. I know of skewed views. But if I rage against a white artist not because they've made a horrible R&B song or album but because they made an okay R&B song/album shooting up the charts and happen to be white, what would that say about me? If Robin Thicke releases a stinker you bet I'm going to say my piece about it, just as soon as I'll do that when Chanté Moore brings out something subpar. What do I care that one of the two sells more units to an audience that wouldn't know Curtis Mayfield from Adam?

.

scriptgirl said:

...the way Justin Timberlake has been accused of?

These artists you just mentioned are actually some of the baddest cats in the game; regardless of them being white. They are genuinely soulful and that's simply the truth. George Michael and Lewis Taylor are two of the best to ever do it and their fanbase speaks volumes. Lewis Taylor has hardcore fans in D'Angelo, Maxwell, Chaka Khan, David Bowie, and Stevie Wonder has always co-signed George Michael. Anyone and everyone who loves D'Angelo, Marvin Gaye, and Jimi Hendrix should get to know Lewis Taylor's music.Robert Palmer take on The System's "You Are My System" is the shit..I don't care what anyone says. Culture Club is soulful. Sade is soulful and let's not forget that Sade is "a band" that features all white musicians on the production. The Police is soulful. Steely Dan is soulful. Paul McCartney is soulful. Teena Marie is soulful. Bobby Caldwell is soulful. Jamiroquai is soulful. As a black man who loves great soul music, never once does it cross my mind that these artists are white and that they are stealing black music. You have artists out there that are posers and wannabes who comes off contrived, but that really can't be said about the artists you mentioned.

jrodndigo said:

scriptgirl said:

...the way Justin Timberlake has been accused of?

These artists you just mentioned are actually some of the baddest cats in the game; regardless of them being white. They are genuinely soulful and that's simply the truth. George Michael and Lewis Taylor are two of the best to ever do it and their fanbase speaks volumes. Lewis Taylor has hardcore fans in D'Angelo, Maxwell, Chaka Khan, David Bowie, and Stevie Wonder has always co-signed George Michael. Anyone and everyone who loves D'Angelo, Marvin Gaye, and Jimi Hendrix should get to know Lewis Taylor's music.Robert Palmer take on The System's "You Are My System" is the shit..I don't care what anyone says. Culture Club is soulful. Sade is soulful and let's not forget that Sade is "a band" that features all white musicians on the production. The Police is soulful. Steely Dan is soulful. Paul McCartney is soulful. Teena Marie is soulful. Bobby Caldwell is soulful. Jamiroquai is soulful. As a black man who loves great soul music, never once does it cross my mind that these artists are white and that they are stealing black music. You have artists out there that are posers and wannabes who comes off contrived, but that really can't be said about the artists you mentioned.

...

Ndeed!

...

Lewis Taylor was an interesting case, because I think he served as a wake up call and an inspiration, at least for other musicians. IMO, he came along at a time when a lot of artists were just phoning it in. I believe one reviewer said of his Stoned album, "This is R&B music done right--at a time when so many are doing it wrong"...

Lewis was never a household name, but he was getting attention from fellow musicians across the spectrum--Pop, Rock, R&B, Electronic, Experimental, etc---

--and as jrodndigo just said, everyone from D'Angelo to Timbaland, to Todd Rundgren, to Chaka, to David Bowie was checkin' him out. I saw a clip from a UK TV show years back, and Elton John pulled a Lewis Taylor album out of his pocket, and said "you have to listen to this guy...".

...

Pretty cool when Elton is walking around with your album on him, LOL....

...

But I think it's also noteworthy that Lewis was never specifically an R&B artist--he really mixed all of his influences together ...from Progressive Rock to Soul, to Pop, Funk, Psychedelic, and on....so it sounds like all of those things at once...if that makes any sense....

...

...

[Edited 5/23/14 11:12am]

ginusher said:

CynicKill said:

Don't play naive guys. You know this is reactionary feelings. Black folks are sensitive about things like this. I suppose, and it's only a theory, that people feel that they are losing their culture to a pretty white face. You made this thread up as a joke response to the Justin board that keeps going and going. But I think the sentiment is shared with that article I posted about the guy who feels that since we have all the white kids doing the R&B and becoming successful at it, the climate has become one of '"who needs you" now that we've learned it'. it sounds kinda silly as I type it but there it is. Also can you imagine that happening in rock? There's no way a white audience will abandon their white artists just because a black artist makes some headway. It is after all a white world and the industry and media is run by white folks. MAYBE that's why there's this reaction. It might be irrational but it's a reaction nonetheless.

.

Thing is, it happened in rock 'n' roll. When the pretty-faced white kid teen idols had successfully appropriated it circa 1960, the AA artists were kind of like "You can have it", and moved on to other genres. (This is disregarding the white rock 'n' roll musicians who were taking their craft seriously)

.

Appropriation of genres that are 'in vogue' is going to happen. Bastardization is going to happen. But we can dwell on the bad exponents of this phenomenon and spend all this time and energy on analyzing how and why exactly it's that bad. Or, we can leave that stuff to the VMAs and the Top 40 stations, and focus on the modern innovators, the struggling talents, the hidden gems, regardless if they're black, white, Asian or et cetera.

.

Now I like JT. He's a good entertainer with an okay voice who puts a lot of enthusiasm into what he does and has an admirable work ethic. But I can get why someone would be gritting his teeth to see JT get all this spotlight media attention while the works of Bilal, Maxwell, or Eric Benét fly under the radar.

.

I'm part Afro-Caribbean part Pacific Islander living in a European smalltown that's 99% Caucasian. I know of ethnic dynamics and perceptions in media. I know of skewed views. But if I rage against a white artist not because they've made a horrible R&B song or album but because they made an okay R&B song/album shooting up the charts and happen to be white, what would that say about me? If Robin Thicke releases a stinker you bet I'm going to say my piece about it, just as soon as I'll do that when Chanté Moore brings out something subpar. What do I care that one of the two sells more units to an audience that wouldn't know Curtis Mayfield from Adam?

.

very well said. I made the case on other thread scriptgirl was parodying that JT is an entertainer moreso than a musician.

Yes, in no way is JT a musician.

scriptgirl said:

Yes, in no way is JT a musician.

Why not?

I don't know if they have necessarily stoten R&B music but black music consumers have played a major role in some of these artist's massive success in the genre. I know many black people who had never even heard of Robin Thicke until last year, buying the "Blurred Lines" CD just because of that one song. I was very sad because when black male singers do the exact same type of music that Robin and Justin are doing, often times, they are ignored by black music consumers. It's ludicrous that organic dudes like Rashaan Patterson and Noel Gourdin are STILL underground artists in the R&B world.

Short answer:

Nope.

Timberlake and Thicke are guilty as hell, though.

^
Who is this in response to?

duccichucka said:

BobGeorge909 said:

duccichucka said:

Why not?

The statement is clearly hyperbolic. The point being he's a poor musician...with lots of dough.

How is script's statement "clearly hyperbolic," but then you say disagree with the statement

by saying Timberlake is in fact a musician, only a shitty one? I'm lost, Bob!

By the way, he's not a shitty musician. Have you ever seen him perform music? He's not

shitty by any means. Now, is he non-descript instrumentalist? You betcha! But as one who

performs music, thereby making him a musician, he's not shitty at all. I give that white boy

all the props in the world for putting on a great live show. And I don't begrudge him his

Black American art influences at all!

duccichucka said:

BobGeorge909 said:

duccichucka said:

How is script's statement "clearly hyperbolic," but then you say disagree with the statement

by saying Timberlake is in fact a musician, only a shitty one? I'm lost, Bob!

By the way, he's not a shitty musician. Have you ever seen him perform music? He's not

shitty by any means. Now, is he non-descript instrumentalist? You betcha! But as one who

performs music, thereby making him a musician, he's not shitty at all. I give that white boy

all the props in the world for putting on a great live show. And I don't begrudge him his

Black American art influences at all!

Hyperbolic - Merriam-Webster Online www.merriam-webster.com/.../hyperbolic 1hy·per·bol·ic. adjective \ˌhī-pər-ˈbä-lik\. Definition of HYPERBOLIC. : of, relating to, or marked by hyperbole. Hyperbole - Merriam-Webster Online www.merriam-webster.com/.../hyperbole language that describes something as better or worse than it really is. Does it make more sense now? Clearly he's a musician of sorts as he's been seen playing instruments and...as far as I'm concerned, vocalists are musicians tho some would argure. Can he play keys...yes. Set him next to Stevie or prince, morris, or carol king even...and U'd be safe saying he can't. Can he play guitar? I suppose. Set him next to Nile, john f., mike Scott...or Donna even...and U'd be safe to say he can't. Can he sing? I suppose. Set him next to Alicia, Christina, gaga...hell, even Susannah...and he would easily be challenged. He's cool and all. I like Justin. Not a fan...but I like him. But in relation to musicians....he's a poor one. Who heralds his musical skills? Besides his mama. He's an engaging entertainer tho and keeps ones attention onstage. [Edited 5/25/14 20:53pm]

Agreed, and I don't think even JT himself would disagree. He's an averagely good singer with massive stage presence who knows how to surround himself with the right people. That's what's gotten him where he is today, and I think he knows that (or at least, he knew it once). I remember one interview in his early solo days when he was asked who the best singer in NSYNC was and he didn't even hesitate, said JC straight away (speaking of which, there's a follow-up album I could do with...).

BobGeorge909 said:

duccichucka said:

How is script's statement "clearly hyperbolic," but then you say disagree with the statement

by saying Timberlake is in fact a musician, only a shitty one? I'm lost, Bob!

By the way, he's not a shitty musician. Have you ever seen him perform music? He's not

shitty by any means. Now, is he non-descript instrumentalist? You betcha! But as one who

performs music, thereby making him a musician, he's not shitty at all. I give that white boy

all the props in the world for putting on a great live show. And I don't begrudge him his

Black American art influences at all!

Hyperbolic - Merriam-Webster Online www.merriam-webster.com/.../hyperbolic 1hy·per·bol·ic. adjective \ˌhī-pər-ˈbä-lik\. Definition of HYPERBOLIC. : of, relating to, or marked by hyperbole. Hyperbole - Merriam-Webster Online www.merriam-webster.com/.../hyperbole language that describes something as better or worse than it really is. Does it make more sense now? Clearly he's a musician of sorts as he's been seen playing instruments and...as far as I'm concerned, vocalists are musicians tho some would argure. Can he play keys...yes. Set him next to Stevie or prince, morris, or carol king even...and U'd be safe saying he can't. Can he play guitar? I suppose. Set him next to Nile, john f., mike Scott...or Donna even...and U'd be safe to say he can't. Can he sing? I suppose. Set him next to Alicia, Christina, gaga...hell, even Susannah...and he would easily be challenged. He's cool and all. I like Justin. Not a fan...but I like him. But in relation to musicians....he's a poor one. Who heralds his musical skills? Besides his mama. He's an engaging entertainer tho and keeps ones attention onstage. [Edited 5/25/14 20:53pm]

Um, no, it's actually not. If you look at the context in which Scripts made that statement, it is

not clear that Scripts is being hyperbolic or even sarcastic. It appears that Scripts actually

thinks that Timberlake is not a musician. Until Scripts clarifies this claim, nothing about the

context in which the statement was made is "clear." And no need to post a definition - I know

what "hyperbole" is. Don't be a smart ass with me, homie!

As far as your "sit him next to..." enumeration goes, who cares? I'm not judging the caliber of

his musicianship, neither am I defending it. If you sit all of those pop stars you mentioned next

to jazz greats, the argument could be used against you. No, I'm asking Scripts, who was not

being hyperbolic or sarcastic, to at least clarify that statement because those who perform music,

regardless of the comparative quality of their musicianship , are still musicians.

He was not my favorite singer in the N*Sync. He's not my favorite pop dancer. But his catalog

is impressive. The only reason why he's getting this (mis)treatment in this org is because he's

simply a white dude gunning for reduplicating Michael Jackson, and stans are fanatically defending

MJ's legacy because some of you actually believe that Timberlake, because he's white, could

be claimed, by the media, as worthy of being considered in the same rank as MJ. This is not

Timberlake's fault, if you haters could just take a step back and view the situation with some

perspective. You are basically faulting a guy for having high aspirations and expectations and

working towards achieving them. We should be rooting for Timberlake to reach the heights of his

artistry, even in the face of his extreme indebtedness and emulation of Michael Jackson.

If you (not you specifically, Bob) don't want Justin Timberlake to steal Black American music, then

you should start championing those unheralded Black American musicians who are ignored by the

media. While Rahsaan Patterson, Van Hunt, and Georgia Anne Muldrow work in relative obscurity,

you bitch and complain about Justin Timberlake. And if Black America started buying the works

of these unheralded artists, we then would feel comfortable with R&B not going the way of rock n'

roll, the blues, and possibly jazz. But Justin Timberlake is no Gerry Mulligan - you jazz heads will

know what I'm talking about. JT is the real deal.

BobGeorge909 said:

Hey...I like when musical genres cross whatever perceived racial lines they have. Just the same as I love interracial babies. Humans r humans and music is music. Throw either in a blender and u will get what u started with. I'm creole with roots in new Orleans. IMO, music don't get stole(well sometimes ©'s are infringed) but music inspires. More power to ya if it inspires out your box our if ure inspired outside your own box. So I'm with you. To not see the hyperbole in scripts statement is to assume a level of ignorance that's disrespectful...or ignorant itself. This is a forum about a musician, prince. 100% of people know he's a singer,..which makes him a musician. I suspect 90-95% of the people in this forum are aware or would assume he's played or plays instruments which makes him a musician. To disregard all of that and go with a literal interpretation of the statement is silly and helps u miss the point of the sentence. Which is that, in scripts opinion, timberlands a poor musician. I maaaaay be wrong...but that's what the sentence is screaming to me. Language would be boring is everyone spoke literally.

Bob, it is not my intent to turn this thread into a discussion about the philosophy of language. And

I've some other qualms about your post here. I'd rather keep this particular discussion private so,

check your PMS.

Anyways, clearly humans are not humans and music is not music, otherwise, we would not be

discussing, no matter how ironic the thread title is, white people stealing what is considered to

be Black music. The fact of the matter is that this discussion is founded on the fact that Justin

Timberlake is white. If he was Black, we wouldn't be talking about his skin color, but solely the

merits of his music's attempt to honor and/or emulate Michael Jackson.