lastdecember said:

paisleypark4 said:

from yahoo answers:

I for one love him

[Edited 12/28/13 15:13pm]

Actually Phil didnt turn Genesis into anything, he could have left that band as Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks said, when he had some solo success he could have walked easily and probably done even more. I love this Yahoo answers thing, its so way off base, im going to guess that people think PHIL was hired to replace Peter, well actually he stepped in because all the auditions sucked, and Tony liked Phil's voice when he did backing vocals. Truth is Genesis would have died as a progressive rock band, look at Yes they have been singing the same 30 minute songs for eons, after awhile you wanna kill yourself, even Dennis De Young formally of STYX in that bands early days they were "progressive" till he gave them a "hit" then he was cited as being the "weak ballad guy" when the truth was tracks like "renegade" which was Tommy Shaws was never a "rock song" till dennis said it should be. Phil gets a lot of crap for merely stepping into a band that was basically done when ego maniac gabriel left.

Can I just say this? I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I saw the Behind the Music documentary on Styx. Tommy Shaw was complaining "why was Dennis doing Mr. Roboto when we could've been doing Renegade!?" But after he left Styx, he did a damn soft rock song with Ted Nugent! It's like "dude either you gonna be a hard rocker or shut up". Even some of the stuff Damn Yankees did wasn't close to being as rock and roll as you expect. Yes could've had more classics if they didn't focus on being so overly dramatic with their songs. Genesis was considered more of an "art rock" band in the beginning of their career and got into progressive rock much later. People forget Genesis was more diverse during the Phil years. They did everything: progressive rock, fusion, R&B, jazz, dance rock, etc. They just don't wanna give Phil credit for anything. He's the go-to guy for picking on. It's almost turned personal. He doesn't deserve most of the attacks he get. It's like all of a sudden you cared for Peter when Genesis was almost on the verge of breaking up because of him? SMH

[Edited 12/28/13 23:05pm]

Timmy84 said:

lastdecember said:

Actually Phil didnt turn Genesis into anything, he could have left that band as Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks said, when he had some solo success he could have walked easily and probably done even more. I love this Yahoo answers thing, its so way off base, im going to guess that people think PHIL was hired to replace Peter, well actually he stepped in because all the auditions sucked, and Tony liked Phil's voice when he did backing vocals. Truth is Genesis would have died as a progressive rock band, look at Yes they have been singing the same 30 minute songs for eons, after awhile you wanna kill yourself, even Dennis De Young formally of STYX in that bands early days they were "progressive" till he gave them a "hit" then he was cited as being the "weak ballad guy" when the truth was tracks like "renegade" which was Tommy Shaws was never a "rock song" till dennis said it should be. Phil gets a lot of crap for merely stepping into a band that was basically done when ego maniac gabriel left.

Can I just say this? I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I saw the Behind the Music documentary on Styx. Tommy Shaw was complaining "why was Dennis doing Mr. Roboto when we could've been doing Renegade!?" But after he left Styx, he did a damn soft rock song with Ted Nugent! It's like "dude either you gonna be a hard rocker or shut up". Even some of the stuff Damn Yankees did wasn't close to being as rock and roll as you expect. Yes could've had more classics if they didn't focus on being so overly dramatic with their songs. Genesis was considered more of an "art rock" band in the beginning of their career and got into progressive rock much later. People forget Genesis was more diverse during the Phil years. They did everything: progressive rock, fusion, R&B, jazz, dance rock, etc. They just don't wanna give Phil credit for anything. He's the go-to guy for picking on. It's almost turned personal. He doesn't deserve most of the attacks he get. It's like all of a sudden you cared for Peter when Genesis was almost on the verge of breaking up because of him? SMH

[Edited 12/28/13 23:05pm]

Tommy Shaw was on that metal saying how ''metall' Styx was. I had this discussion before... so many old rock hits want metal cred now. No matter how loud they turned up their guitars, they are light rock. They are hard rock... not fucking metal. Tommy is a hypocrite

Damn Yankees were mainly ballads... High Enough, Come Again etc. They had some hard rock stuff like Coming Of Age & Don't Tread On Me. But even Coming Of Age was practically a country song in disguise. Metal my ass

Timmy84 said:

It's funny. People love doing revisionist history on Genesis but their early recordings were just as pop-friendly as the records they claimed Phil-era Genesis recordings were (but I think Phil was edgier than giving credit). Genesis was not actually considered "cool" or "hip" during Peter Gabriel's tenure with them. In fact they had to compete with Todd Rundgren for space since he had the better produced shows while Peter struggled to perform wearing bizarre clothing. Phil's drumming probably kept fans coming. When Phil was coming up, it was usually rock based stuff. Brand X was a fusion group. Genesis, before Phil, was not exactly winning their label over. When Phil joined, he brought something to Genesis that they had lacked: a diverse drummer (and later a diverse singer-songwriter). With Peter, they might've had the "show", but with Phil, they had the classics, and then Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks added their own creative touches (matter of fact one of my all time favorite non-Phil written Genesis songs is "Man of Our Times" from Duke). I love the ones where Phil, Mike & Tony wrote all the songs together. Whereas with Peter, it was almost a guilty pleasure. Plus Phil just has a more melodic voice than Peter. Peter IMHO didn't find his edge until after he left Genesis. Phil almost never wanted to do a solo career, it happened almost by accident. He couldn't help it if people were buying his stuff and also in the time period he released them, to single him out as bland is ridiculous. The same thing with Lionel Richie and Tina Turner in a sense.

From what I understand, it was mainly Anthony Phillips that changed their early pop sound to the more prog sound. It wasn't called progressive rock in the beginning. But he had extreme stage fright and left the group after the 2nd album. Peter didn't always have that much to do with the sound. In some cases, the band just jammed and recorded instrumental songs and Peter added lyrics and vocals later or played a flute. Peter himself has said the group became more popular after he left.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

It's funny. People love doing revisionist history on Genesis but their early recordings were just as pop-friendly as the records they claimed Phil-era Genesis recordings were (but I think Phil was edgier than giving credit). Genesis was not actually considered "cool" or "hip" during Peter Gabriel's tenure with them. In fact they had to compete with Todd Rundgren for space since he had the better produced shows while Peter struggled to perform wearing bizarre clothing. Phil's drumming probably kept fans coming. When Phil was coming up, it was usually rock based stuff. Brand X was a fusion group. Genesis, before Phil, was not exactly winning their label over. When Phil joined, he brought something to Genesis that they had lacked: a diverse drummer (and later a diverse singer-songwriter). With Peter, they might've had the "show", but with Phil, they had the classics, and then Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks added their own creative touches (matter of fact one of my all time favorite non-Phil written Genesis songs is "Man of Our Times" from Duke). I love the ones where Phil, Mike & Tony wrote all the songs together. Whereas with Peter, it was almost a guilty pleasure. Plus Phil just has a more melodic voice than Peter. Peter IMHO didn't find his edge until after he left Genesis. Phil almost never wanted to do a solo career, it happened almost by accident. He couldn't help it if people were buying his stuff and also in the time period he released them, to single him out as bland is ridiculous. The same thing with Lionel Richie and Tina Turner in a sense.

From what I understand, it was mainly Anthony Phillips that changed their early pop sound to the more prog sound. It wasn't called progressive rock in the beginning. But he had extreme stage fright and left the group after the 2nd album. Peter didn't always have that much to do with the sound. In some cases, the band just jammed and recorded instrumental songs and Peter added lyrics and vocals later or played a flute. Peter himself has said the group became more popular after he left.

Yeah. Peter said he didn't have much to do with the group's creativity on that purpose. He was basically Genesis' pretty boy lead singer who sometimes wore outrageous clothing. Like I said Peter found his sound after he left the group. Anthony Phillips was pretty influential to that group's prog rock sound during those years.

Gunsnhalen said:

Timmy84 said:

Can I just say this? I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I saw the Behind the Music documentary on Styx. Tommy Shaw was complaining "why was Dennis doing Mr. Roboto when we could've been doing Renegade!?" But after he left Styx, he did a damn soft rock song with Ted Nugent! It's like "dude either you gonna be a hard rocker or shut up". Even some of the stuff Damn Yankees did wasn't close to being as rock and roll as you expect. Yes could've had more classics if they didn't focus on being so overly dramatic with their songs. Genesis was considered more of an "art rock" band in the beginning of their career and got into progressive rock much later. People forget Genesis was more diverse during the Phil years. They did everything: progressive rock, fusion, R&B, jazz, dance rock, etc. They just don't wanna give Phil credit for anything. He's the go-to guy for picking on. It's almost turned personal. He doesn't deserve most of the attacks he get. It's like all of a sudden you cared for Peter when Genesis was almost on the verge of breaking up because of him? SMH

[Edited 12/28/13 23:05pm]

Tommy Shaw was on that metal saying how ''metall' Styx was. I had this discussion before... so many old rock hits want metal cred now. No matter how loud they turned up their guitars, they are light rock. They are hard rock... not fucking metal. Tommy is a hypocrite

Damn Yankees were mainly ballads... High Enough, Come Again etc. They had some hard rock stuff like Coming Of Age & Don't Tread On Me. But even Coming Of Age was practically a country song in disguise. Metal my ass

Well that may be but there is alot on "that metal show" that never should be on, Lita Ford was on there and actually i think she did the first show, and she isnt Metal, Heart were on there with her recently and heart were looking around like "WTF" are we doing on this show and Eddie and the other guys hardly knew anything but Barracuda, so i think for ratings that show is letting alot of Hard Rock not just metal on that show, cause i mean how many times can you hear about Judas Priest. And also EDDIE the host worships KISS which is POP/ROCK.

Timmy84 said:

lastdecember said:

Actually Phil didnt turn Genesis into anything, he could have left that band as Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks said, when he had some solo success he could have walked easily and probably done even more. I love this Yahoo answers thing, its so way off base, im going to guess that people think PHIL was hired to replace Peter, well actually he stepped in because all the auditions sucked, and Tony liked Phil's voice when he did backing vocals. Truth is Genesis would have died as a progressive rock band, look at Yes they have been singing the same 30 minute songs for eons, after awhile you wanna kill yourself, even Dennis De Young formally of STYX in that bands early days they were "progressive" till he gave them a "hit" then he was cited as being the "weak ballad guy" when the truth was tracks like "renegade" which was Tommy Shaws was never a "rock song" till dennis said it should be. Phil gets a lot of crap for merely stepping into a band that was basically done when ego maniac gabriel left.

Can I just say this? I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I saw the Behind the Music documentary on Styx. Tommy Shaw was complaining "why was Dennis doing Mr. Roboto when we could've been doing Renegade!?" But after he left Styx, he did a damn soft rock song with Ted Nugent! It's like "dude either you gonna be a hard rocker or shut up". Even some of the stuff Damn Yankees did wasn't close to being as rock and roll as you expect. Yes could've had more classics if they didn't focus on being so overly dramatic with their songs. Genesis was considered more of an "art rock" band in the beginning of their career and got into progressive rock much later. People forget Genesis was more diverse during the Phil years. They did everything: progressive rock, fusion, R&B, jazz, dance rock, etc. They just don't wanna give Phil credit for anything. He's the go-to guy for picking on. It's almost turned personal. He doesn't deserve most of the attacks he get. It's like all of a sudden you cared for Peter when Genesis was almost on the verge of breaking up because of him? SMH

[Edited 12/28/13 23:05pm]

I always blame TED for everything cause he is an idiot in every way shape or form. As far as STYX they had 5 albums before Toomy entered and they were straight progressive rock and at times Hard Rock. "the best thing" was their first time cracking the charts and it was hard rock, great solos, and was Dennis all the way. Dennis could always rock, his being removed from Styx was because of things like Money, Veto Power, and not wanting to tour the way they do now. That was why he was replaced.

As for Phil i will always defend this guy because he was an icon of a great musical era, lets not even forget that "in the air tonight" launched a tv show in 1984, which also was the greatest musical year ever that i have lived through, but Phil did some great work solo and in that band, yeah he did some bad songs, but who didnt? The Rollling Stones? Paul McCarntey? Elton John? Prince? come on they all did some crappy songs in the 80's 90's, Prince did a song with a Penguin for godsakes.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

From what I understand, it was mainly Anthony Phillips that changed their early pop sound to the more prog sound. It wasn't called progressive rock in the beginning. But he had extreme stage fright and left the group after the 2nd album. Peter didn't always have that much to do with the sound. In some cases, the band just jammed and recorded instrumental songs and Peter added lyrics and vocals later or played a flute. Peter himself has said the group became more popular after he left.

Yeah. Peter said he didn't have much to do with the group's creativity on that purpose. He was basically Genesis' pretty boy lead singer who sometimes wore outrageous clothing. Like I said Peter found his sound after he left the group. Anthony Phillips was pretty influential to that group's prog rock sound during those years.

Everyone needs to watch that Genesis DVD that came out years ago, that tells their whole life story from day one to the day that Phil left and they did that album with that other guy.

lastdecember said:

Gunsnhalen said:

Tommy Shaw was on that metal saying how ''metall' Styx was. I had this discussion before... so many old rock hits want metal cred now. No matter how loud they turned up their guitars, they are light rock. They are hard rock... not fucking metal. Tommy is a hypocrite

Damn Yankees were mainly ballads... High Enough, Come Again etc. They had some hard rock stuff like Coming Of Age & Don't Tread On Me. But even Coming Of Age was practically a country song in disguise. Metal my ass

Well that may be but there is alot on "that metal show" that never should be on, Lita Ford was on there and actually i think she did the first show, and she isnt Metal, Heart were on there with her recently and heart were looking around like "WTF" are we doing on this show and Eddie and the other guys hardly knew anything but Barracuda, so i think for ratings that show is letting alot of Hard Rock not just metal on that show, cause i mean how many times can you hear about Judas Priest. And also EDDIE the host worships KISS which is POP/ROCK.

Wasn't Ace on one of those Metal shows? I believe he was...

I think that show should change its name to THAT ROCK SHOW. Ain't like calling it METAL would do anything. I imagine Ann and Nancy were looking at each other like "why did he invite us? "

lastdecember said:

Timmy84 said:

Can I just say this? I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I saw the Behind the Music documentary on Styx. Tommy Shaw was complaining "why was Dennis doing Mr. Roboto when we could've been doing Renegade!?" But after he left Styx, he did a damn soft rock song with Ted Nugent! It's like "dude either you gonna be a hard rocker or shut up". Even some of the stuff Damn Yankees did wasn't close to being as rock and roll as you expect. Yes could've had more classics if they didn't focus on being so overly dramatic with their songs. Genesis was considered more of an "art rock" band in the beginning of their career and got into progressive rock much later. People forget Genesis was more diverse during the Phil years. They did everything: progressive rock, fusion, R&B, jazz, dance rock, etc. They just don't wanna give Phil credit for anything. He's the go-to guy for picking on. It's almost turned personal. He doesn't deserve most of the attacks he get. It's like all of a sudden you cared for Peter when Genesis was almost on the verge of breaking up because of him? SMH

[Edited 12/28/13 23:05pm]

I always blame TED for everything cause he is an idiot in every way shape or form. As far as STYX they had 5 albums before Toomy entered and they were straight progressive rock and at times Hard Rock. "the best thing" was their first time cracking the charts and it was hard rock, great solos, and was Dennis all the way. Dennis could always rock, his being removed from Styx was because of things like Money, Veto Power, and not wanting to tour the way they do now. That was why he was replaced.

As for Phil i will always defend this guy because he was an icon of a great musical era, lets not even forget that "in the air tonight" launched a tv show in 1984, which also was the greatest musical year ever that i have lived through, but Phil did some great work solo and in that band, yeah he did some bad songs, but who didnt? The Rollling Stones? Paul McCarntey? Elton John? Prince? come on they all did some crappy songs in the 80's 90's, Prince did a song with a Penguin for godsakes.

That's why I ride with Phil. The man had greats with Genesis and solo. You can't deny the stuff was that damn good even if you wanted to. "In the Air Tonight" definitely launched "Miami Vice". And he was iconic in his own way. True he didn't have a unique look but that's what made him special to me because he was a stand out from all the MJ's, Princes, Madonnas, Tina Turners, etc. Tommy Shaw was at best a pop rocker lol

lastdecember said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah. Peter said he didn't have much to do with the group's creativity on that purpose. He was basically Genesis' pretty boy lead singer who sometimes wore outrageous clothing. Like I said Peter found his sound after he left the group. Anthony Phillips was pretty influential to that group's prog rock sound during those years.

Everyone needs to watch that Genesis DVD that came out years ago, that tells their whole life story from day one to the day that Phil left and they did that album with that other guy.

I think I saw bits of it on YouTube...

Timmy84 said:

lastdecember said:

Well that may be but there is alot on "that metal show" that never should be on, Lita Ford was on there and actually i think she did the first show, and she isnt Metal, Heart were on there with her recently and heart were looking around like "WTF" are we doing on this show and Eddie and the other guys hardly knew anything but Barracuda, so i think for ratings that show is letting alot of Hard Rock not just metal on that show, cause i mean how many times can you hear about Judas Priest. And also EDDIE the host worships KISS which is POP/ROCK.

Wasn't Ace on one of those Metal shows? I believe he was...

I think that show should change its name to THAT ROCK SHOW. Ain't like calling it METAL would do anything. I imagine Ann and Nancy were looking at each other like "why did he invite us? "

even the guys said it too, Ann and Nancy said they knew about the show because a "roadie" of theirs loves the show so they had to play catch up with it, but they really felt a bit out of place, and i felt that way too when Tommy Shaw and JY were on the show, the audience in slayer and van halen faded shirts and they are the guys that did "Babe" and "too much time on my hands".

lastdecember said:

Everyone needs to watch that Genesis DVD that came out years ago, that tells their whole life story from day one to the day that Phil left and they did that album with that other guy.

There's also a book that came out around 2007 called Genesis: Chapter and Verse. It's similar to The Beatles Anthology book in that it is by the group and has lots of pictures. Pretty much everyone that had something to do with Genesis is featured and/or comments in it, including touring members like Chester Thompson, the singer on the last album Ray Wilson, and managers & producers.

lastdecember said:

Timmy84 said:

Wasn't Ace on one of those Metal shows? I believe he was...

I think that show should change its name to THAT ROCK SHOW. Ain't like calling it METAL would do anything. I imagine Ann and Nancy were looking at each other like "why did he invite us? "

even the guys said it too, Ann and Nancy said they knew about the show because a "roadie" of theirs loves the show so they had to play catch up with it, but they really felt a bit out of place, and i felt that way too when Tommy Shaw and JY were on the show, the audience in slayer and van halen faded shirts and they are the guys that did "Babe" and "too much time on my hands".

Yeah that's a weird show.

MickyDolenz said:

lastdecember said:

Everyone needs to watch that Genesis DVD that came out years ago, that tells their whole life story from day one to the day that Phil left and they did that album with that other guy.

There's also a book that came out around 2007 called Genesis: Chapter and Verse. It's similar to The Beatles Anthology book in that it is by the group and has lots of pictures. Pretty much everyone that had something to do with Genesis is featured and/or comments in it, including touring members like Chester Thompson, the singer on the last album Ray Wilson, and managers & producers.

Funny thing is about Ray when he got the call he didnt even know Phil had left the band, and he was a PHIL fan. Even though he was a different dynamic with them on that album i think it was pretty much over, they had so much with Phil at that point they could really not plug someone else in, i think Mike and Tony were done at that point.

lastdecember said:

MickyDolenz said:

There's also a book that came out around 2007 called Genesis: Chapter and Verse. It's similar to The Beatles Anthology book in that it is by the group and has lots of pictures. Pretty much everyone that had something to do with Genesis is featured and/or comments in it, including touring members like Chester Thompson, the singer on the last album Ray Wilson, and managers & producers.

Funny thing is about Ray when he got the call he didnt even know Phil had left the band, and he was a PHIL fan. Even though he was a different dynamic with them on that album i think it was pretty much over, they had so much with Phil at that point they could really not plug someone else in, i think Mike and Tony were done at that point.

Kinda like Gary Cherone after David Lee Roth & Sammy Hagar, Mötley Crüe with John Corabi, or the singers in Fleetwood Mac after the Rumours lineup.

From the king of white rock critics, Robert Christgau.

No Jacket Required [Atlantic, 1985]
Between his self-deprecating videos and his good taste in business associates (better Philip Bailey than, say, Steve Perry), Collins isn't as hateful as an art-rock leader-by-default turned best-selling-solo-artist-in-the-world-this-month might be. In fact, he's not hateful at all. But it takes more than that to make me want to hear a stupid love song again. Never mind the absolutely unsurprising lyrics and arrangements and just tell me why this is a great mean of Britpop voices? Is it because no one ever wonders what it sounds like unfiltered? C

And, yup, that's about right.

MendesCity said:

From the king of white rock critics, Robert Christgau.

No Jacket Required [Atlantic, 1985]
Between his self-deprecating videos and his good taste in business associates (better Philip Bailey than, say, Steve Perry), Collins isn't as hateful as an art-rock leader-by-default turned best-selling-solo-artist-in-the-world-this-month might be. In fact, he's not hateful at all. But it takes more than that to make me want to hear a stupid love song again. Never mind the absolutely unsurprising lyrics and arrangements and just tell me why this is a great mean of Britpop voices? Is it because no one ever wonders what it sounds like unfiltered? C

And, yup, that's about right.

Robert gave a Nicki Minaj album an A. And some of Prince, Stevie Wonder, and Megadeth albums a C. So...

Gunsnhalen said:

MendesCity said:

From the king of white rock critics, Robert Christgau.

No Jacket Required [Atlantic, 1985]
Between his self-deprecating videos and his good taste in business associates (better Philip Bailey than, say, Steve Perry), Collins isn't as hateful as an art-rock leader-by-default turned best-selling-solo-artist-in-the-world-this-month might be. In fact, he's not hateful at all. But it takes more than that to make me want to hear a stupid love song again. Never mind the absolutely unsurprising lyrics and arrangements and just tell me why this is a great mean of Britpop voices? Is it because no one ever wonders what it sounds like unfiltered? C

And, yup, that's about right.

Robert gave a Nicki Minaj album an A. And some of Prince, Stevie Wonder, and Megadeth albums a C. So...

Don't get why he's taken seriously at all. King of "white" rock critics. Are you serious Mendes?

"I never met anybody who said when they were a kid, I wanna grow up and be a critic." - Richard Pryor

Like a river to the sea
I will always be with you
And if you sail away
I will follow you

MickyDolenz said:

namepeace said:

I think actually many of these artists turned rock and roll back to its black roots. Perhaps that's a problem for some so-called "rock purists" as well.

I'm not sure that's it. Led Zeppelin copied blues songs and they were popular with rock fans, if not necessarily by critics. Eric Clapton is also blues based. A lot of blues is more guitar oriented than R&B, so it fits with the "guitar hero" ideal in hard rock. Southern Rock has more R&B and jazz influences though, but mixed with country.

I was referring to these artists sounds emphasizing the "rhythm" in rhythm and blues, and the "roll" in rock and roll. Notice the evolution of rock and roll to "rock" for "purist" purposes.

Has nothing to do with Blues or Rock. The answer is, he made "soft" rock, lite rock, and was overplayed. Even I couldn't appreciate him until years later.

Timmy84 said:

Gunsnhalen said:

Robert gave a Nicki Minaj album an A. And some of Prince, Stevie Wonder, and Megadeth albums a C. So...

Don't get why he's taken seriously at all. King of "white" rock critics. Are you serious Mendes?

"I never met anybody who said when they were a kid, I wanna grow up and be a critic." - Richard Pryor

I love him - he's a cranky old contrarian, and I often don't agree with him, but he's turned me on to more good music than any other critic.

I'll never understand his Nicki love...he's always been really good to our Princey though.

I didn't know Collins was loved by R&B purists

I enjoy some of his solo hits, but his '80s and '90s work was a joke next to his '70s legacy with Genesis, the production was often overkill and the lyrics cheesy as hell...

he also had this aura of "trying to hard", which made him look tiresome/desperate...not even Sting went that far LOL

[Edited 12/30/13 10:45am]

Cinny said:

Has nothing to do with Blues or Rock. The answer is, he made "soft" rock, lite rock, and was overplayed. Even I couldn't appreciate him until years later.

No one has said that Phil made blues music.

[Edited 12/30/13 11:03am]

namepeace said:

MickyDolenz said:

I'm not sure that's it. Led Zeppelin copied blues songs and they were popular with rock fans, if not necessarily by critics. Eric Clapton is also blues based. A lot of blues is more guitar oriented than R&B, so it fits with the "guitar hero" ideal in hard rock. Southern Rock has more R&B and jazz influences though, but mixed with country.

I was referring to these artists sounds emphasizing the "rhythm" in rhythm and blues, and the "roll" in rock and roll. Notice the evolution of rock and roll to "rock" for "purist" purposes.

I understand that, but blues originated with Black people and R&B is an offspring of the blues, so I didn't get saying that the light rock acts were disliked by rock fans because it turned it back to Black roots and were liked by R&B fans for that reason. The blues based rock acts like Led Zeppelin were accepted by rock fans, but they were not really popular with the R&B audience. Some of the light rock acts mentioned were considered "blue-eyed soul" and soul is not really a big thing with rock fans and doesn't get the same amount of coverage in rock based media like Rolling Stone.

Most of the hate for Phil comes from alot of things, ONE being popular gets u hated, and we know that, if you have a hit your a sellout, example metallica, u2 and REM fans who BS and talk about the old days of these bands and know nothing about them. There are tons of people call "Joshua Tree" a sellout album, really, cause when i heard that album there was nothing like it during that time period at all, to me selling out is doing what it takes to sell a record and being like everyone.

Phil to me gets shit because morons that have written for rock magazines and ROCK djs and critics think this guy doesnt fit the mold, he doesnt have that "look" of a rock star, which is BS. Rock critics have dictated shit for way too long and as Daryl Hall kinda said "maybe they are finally dieing off" which is the only reason they got into the hall of fame, cause HALL AND OATES as good as they were and are, did alot of fucking cheesey videos and songs with shitty production especially on the Big Bam Boom album and Oooh Yeah, though good albums, give me a break with these purists. Phil was always made fun of, and he agreed, but he has gotten shit for alot while others never did.

Incidents that PHIL took shit for, he was nominated for an Academy Award for "Against all odds" and wasnt asked to perform while everyone else was asked, Phil was lied to and told "actors and actresses" were going to sing there songs, and the amazing vocalist (NOT) Ann Reinking (i think thats how u spell it) sang Phils song and it sucked major ass, Phil said straight out she is a great dancer but she cant sing, which to me wasnt rude at all. But he got shit for that statement.

Next the infamous LIVE aid awful Led Zep reunion, to this day PLANT has blocked that footage from being seen and gone on record that PHIL was a bad drummer. TRUTH was Plant was awful, even worse then Simon Lebon that day, and Jimmy Page was drooling on himself and fucking stunk, his solos were not right, he was off key the whole time, Phil was the only one playing correctly, but they blamed PHIL and said he was tired because he played both London and the USA. What a crock of shit Robert Plant, but of course that is LED ZEP and anything they shit out is gold and cannot be debated.

lastdecember said:

Most of the hate for Phil comes from alot of things, ONE being popular gets u hated, and we know that, if you have a hit your a sellout, example metallica, u2 and REM fans who BS and talk about the old days of these bands and know nothing about them. There are tons of people call "Joshua Tree" a sellout album, really, cause when i heard that album there was nothing like it during that time period at all, to me selling out is doing what it takes to sell a record and being like everyone.

Phil to me gets shit because morons that have written for rock magazines and ROCK djs and critics think this guy doesnt fit the mold, he doesnt have that "look" of a rock star, which is BS. Rock critics have dictated shit for way too long and as Daryl Hall kinda said "maybe they are finally dieing off" which is the only reason they got into the hall of fame, cause HALL AND OATES as good as they were and are, did alot of fucking cheesey videos and songs with shitty production especially on the Big Bam Boom album and Oooh Yeah, though good albums, give me a break with these purists. Phil was always made fun of, and he agreed, but he has gotten shit for alot while others never did.

Incidents that PHIL took shit for, he was nominated for an Academy Award for "Against all odds" and wasnt asked to perform while everyone else was asked, Phil was lied to and told "actors and actresses" were going to sing there songs, and the amazing vocalist (NOT) Ann Reinking (i think thats how u spell it) sang Phils song and it sucked major ass, Phil said straight out she is a great dancer but she cant sing, which to me wasnt rude at all. But he got shit for that statement.

Next the infamous LIVE aid awful Led Zep reunion, to this day PLANT has blocked that footage from being seen and gone on record that PHIL was a bad drummer. TRUTH was Plant was awful, even worse then Simon Lebon that day, and Jimmy Page was drooling on himself and fucking stunk, his solos were not right, he was off key the whole time, Phil was the only one playing correctly, but they blamed PHIL and said he was tired because he played both London and the USA. What a crock of shit Robert Plant, but of course that is LED ZEP and anything they shit out is gold and cannot be debated.

The little footage I did see of the Live Aid performance of Plant, Page and Phil, I can see why Plant doesn't want it released. They were so off while Phil was on. Phil is one of the greatest drummers of all time IMHO.

Timmy84 said:

lastdecember said:

Most of the hate for Phil comes from alot of things, ONE being popular gets u hated, and we know that, if you have a hit your a sellout, example metallica, u2 and REM fans who BS and talk about the old days of these bands and know nothing about them. There are tons of people call "Joshua Tree" a sellout album, really, cause when i heard that album there was nothing like it during that time period at all, to me selling out is doing what it takes to sell a record and being like everyone.

Phil to me gets shit because morons that have written for rock magazines and ROCK djs and critics think this guy doesnt fit the mold, he doesnt have that "look" of a rock star, which is BS. Rock critics have dictated shit for way too long and as Daryl Hall kinda said "maybe they are finally dieing off" which is the only reason they got into the hall of fame, cause HALL AND OATES as good as they were and are, did alot of fucking cheesey videos and songs with shitty production especially on the Big Bam Boom album and Oooh Yeah, though good albums, give me a break with these purists. Phil was always made fun of, and he agreed, but he has gotten shit for alot while others never did.

Incidents that PHIL took shit for, he was nominated for an Academy Award for "Against all odds" and wasnt asked to perform while everyone else was asked, Phil was lied to and told "actors and actresses" were going to sing there songs, and the amazing vocalist (NOT) Ann Reinking (i think thats how u spell it) sang Phils song and it sucked major ass, Phil said straight out she is a great dancer but she cant sing, which to me wasnt rude at all. But he got shit for that statement.

Next the infamous LIVE aid awful Led Zep reunion, to this day PLANT has blocked that footage from being seen and gone on record that PHIL was a bad drummer. TRUTH was Plant was awful, even worse then Simon Lebon that day, and Jimmy Page was drooling on himself and fucking stunk, his solos were not right, he was off key the whole time, Phil was the only one playing correctly, but they blamed PHIL and said he was tired because he played both London and the USA. What a crock of shit Robert Plant, but of course that is LED ZEP and anything they shit out is gold and cannot be debated.

The little footage I did see of the Live Aid performance of Plant, Page and Phil, I can see why Plant doesn't want it released. They were so off while Phil was on. Phil is one of the greatest drummers of all time IMHO.

He is, he played what they wanted him to play, i mean he had to be ratttled to even be asked to play "Stairway" but they went for him because honestly Phil was the big star of that time, and Plant was doing standards with the HoneyDrippers. Right after the show they ripped Phil in the press it was kinda of sad to see Plant clinging to his legend status so bad he took shots at everyone but him and page who sucked and werent ready to re-form and play, both were high.

Gunsnhalen said:

I always found it odd how white rock critics despise Phil Collins, Yet he is strangely widely loved in the r&b and even hip-hop community.

There was even a hip-hop tribute album to Phil with Lil Kim, ODB, Brandy & Ray J etc.

And his music has been sampled by Nas, DMX, 2Pac, Wale, Montel Jordan, Slick Rick, Cam'ron, R. kelly, Bone Thugs-n-Harmony, Public Enemy, Run-DMC, Jay-Z etc.

And he's been covered by Kelis, Usher, Joe, R. Kelly, Chaka Khan, D'angelo, Miguel and many others.

Is it cause the people of ''Gabriel era'' Genesis are still mad when he took over? it's just odd... that he is hated in a big way by rock music critics. But he is considered a legend in the r&b crowd.

Let's say that I grant your argument its intended accuracy. If that is the case, then Phil Collins'

musical legacy is safe, because the last time I scanned the landscape of what is "cool" in music,

white people's collective musical taste was largely irrelevant.

lastdecember said:

Timmy84 said:

The little footage I did see of the Live Aid performance of Plant, Page and Phil, I can see why Plant doesn't want it released. They were so off while Phil was on. Phil is one of the greatest drummers of all time IMHO.

He is, he played what they wanted him to play, i mean he had to be ratttled to even be asked to play "Stairway" but they went for him because honestly Phil was the big star of that time, and Plant was doing standards with the HoneyDrippers. Right after the show they ripped Phil in the press it was kinda of sad to see Plant clinging to his legend status so bad he took shots at everyone but him and page who sucked and werent ready to re-form and play, both were high.

Cocaine's a helluva drug.