BlaqueKnight said:

I personally find it curious that white people in general would never consider saying something like "I don't see Bhangra as Indian music" or "I don't see K Pop as Korean or J Pop as Japanese." They would never fix their mouths to say I don't see Reggae as Island music. Yet these same people feel that American musical artforms created by American blacks should somehow not be directly and solely associated with with the peeople that made and initially, SOLELY supported it. Jazz, blues and dare I say it, ROCK, all started within the American black community and during their initial stages, were solely supported by black people. (In this conversation, black = African American).

I wonder where hip-hop would be today if it didn't end up supporting the music industry in the early 90s. Nothing else was making any real money besides grunge. Nonetheless, when it comes to hip-hop and I guess now R&B, white people have decided that it is not "black" even though the black community has supported R&B through thick and thin and about 95% of R&B is made by black Americans.

Could it be that like the cotton gin, white people still consider anything made by their "slaves" their property?

Could it be that culture vulturism is easily permitted and excused when it comes to black Americans because there is no fear of repercussions of any sort? (see: Zydeco music)

Could it be that "I don't see color"only applies when speaking on anything pertaining to blacks or black American culture?

Who makes these "charts" and do these "charts" really mean that someone is "king" of said genre?

Its kinda like when Rolling Stone declared Eminem "king of hip-hop" when hip-hop is so much bigger than what he was doing, but because it resonated with mainstreamers, he is somehow declared king?

Now its R&B.

George Michael was never an R&B artist. He was crossover, which is why so many people had a problem with him winning best R&B artist back in '89. Back then, people tried to justify it with "Bobby McFarren won best pop song" but "Don't Worry; Be happy" was a pop song. "Faith" was NOT an R&B record any more than Adele's 21 is. It did have songs that could be considered R&B on it but that was not the overall content of the record. He was not really a "favorite R&B male vocalist" in the eyes of the R&B community. To this day, I have never met an R&B head that lists George Michael as one of their favorite R&B vocalists.

Now its Robin Thicke & Justin Timberlake? I have to consider the source of the misinformation. These are the same people who will in one breath, say R&B is dead and yet never make mention of the contribution of singers like Angie Stone, Anthony Hamilton or Bilal. Some of the people making those claims don't even know who they are. Erykah Badu just dropped off the planet, huh?

People have come to value political correctness far too much.

There is nothing wrong with being honest about black Americasn culture. There is nothing wrong about respecting the opinions of the creators of said culture. As was said earlier, no one would dare try to claim a white "king" of Reggae or Bhangra. That is because those cultures don't let the mainstream dictate to them what is what in their own culture. It is also because whites don't $upport those genres to the extent that they do others. Just because you put some money in something doesn't mean you get to dictate it.

So, make your charts and get Rolling Stone and whatever other musical journals you control to say whatever you want. That doesn't make it so. R&B heads know what's up in the R&B community. Having a hit doesn't make you "king" by any stretch.

Maybe that declaration is a metaphor for desiring to rule over blacks in some way, shape or form? Perhaps is it the exercising of cultural white supremacy via the media?

Anyway, no matter how many times you play "Blurred Lines", I will always think of Marvin Gaye's "Got to Give It Up" when it comes on and reminisce on a REAL "King of R&B" and whenever I hear anything Timberfake drops, I tend to think of how much better those tracks would sound if Timbaland had givenm them to Ginuwine instead. We all know where Justin stands and that poser could never be king of R&B, even if Stevie Wonder, Nile Rogers and Quincy Jones were producing him. If biting off R&B wasn't making him money, he'd be doing something else.

You can have your articles and charts. I'll take my culture, thank you. That does not invalidate white artists that do actually do R&B music by any stretch. Just don't be so quick to decide who's king if you aren't already deep in the culture.

Don't be coming in here making perfectly good sense. What's wrong with u?

MickyDolenz said:

I don't get people saying that it takes no talent to rap. Rap is not something anyone can do, nor can they do turntablism. All rap is not the same. Just because someone can play an instrument does not mean their music is better than someone else's who can't. Playing an instrument doesn't really require any special talent. It can be taught and learned, and it depends on the interest/dedication of the player. Some types of music like punk, originally the whole idea was not to play well. It was a partly a rebellion against prog rock and arena rock with long solos and 20 minute songs with Dungeon & Dragons type lyrics.

.

A lot of those musicians decades ago were loners and probably had nothing better to to than practice their instrument all the time (and less technology such as video games & cell phones to keep them occupied), so of course they became better players, but it wasn't necessarily because they had more talent than someone who wasn't as interested. Others, like The Jackson 5, had parents making them practice, when many times they wanted to go out and play with the other kids or do school sports. If left to themselves without Papa Joe hounding them, would they have become a group at all? Joe said one of the reasons in making them practice constantly was to keep them off the street and joining neighborhood gangs. Also some of them were children/teens performing in strip clubs/juke joints/bars (Beatles, Jackson 5, Billie Holiday) which won't fly today.

You can't be serious. Let me address the sentence before first. Who on this site stated that just because an artist that plays an instrument automatically makes their music better than the artist that doesn't? You would be hard pressed to find one person on this site that will tell that Tyrone Brunson's music is better than Chaka Khan's(solo)music. It seems you get admiration for an artists who are skilled musicians confused with dislike for a lot of today's pop tart artists that don't. Now if you turn to this generation of artists who don't play music more often than not a large percentage of artists who are skilled musicians does have better music. The proof is in the pudding. A lot of mainstream artists today are produced by people that don't play music. They just turn knobs and push buttons. A lot of it sounds processed and lame.

Now i have to call bullshit on your comment that it doesn't require any special talent to play an instrument. I've played trumpet in middle school and high school as well as piano. I was more proficient at trumpet because i stuck with it longer but it takes good breathing control and wind to play a brass instrument. You are not gonna just be great it because your band instructor shows you how to play it out of a book. As you develop you're either gonna have that it factor to be great or you will be just ordinary . Of course playing an instrument can be taught and learned but it doesn't mean you're gonna be great at it even with dedication. You can practice and work hard at a craft but it doesn't automatically put you on top. If that were the case Tim Tebow would be a starting qb in the NFL. I have several friends that play in bands. One is a piano player and can play anything at the drop of a hat because he knows chords and he can hear it before he even attempts to play it. You can practice all you want but if you don't have that innate ability to interpret sound you can't do it. You either have it or you don't. Same goes for playing guitar. I know any musician that plays for a living would take exception to the notion that playing an instrument doesn't require any skill. I've seen kids who take up playing an instrument and don't get it right even after practice.

[Edited 6/25/13 14:57pm]

phunkdaddy said:

Who on this site stated that just because an artist that plays an instrument automatically makes their music better than the artist that doesn't?

Who said I was talking about someone on this site? This isn't the only place in the world. People just assume things that is not there. The comment I made earlier about people looking at you funny if you don't listen to R&B or dress in hip hop clothes had nothing to do with this site either.

As far as the instrument goes, I never said anything about someone becoming "great" or "ordinary" or "being at the top". I said that playing can be taught, not that everyone can do it well enough to play in an orchestra. Some people can be taught to play notes, but not necessarily become Victor Borge or create there own music. That's why I said it doesn't really take any special talent to play, hence using "special" and not just "talent" by itself. Even someone who just plays by rote or a child who learns to play Row Row Row Your Boat on a piano is playing. It's like some people can learn to do basic math like adding and subtracting, but not algebra or trigonometry. It doesn't have to be at an advanced or professional level, which is why I mentioned punk rock being about not playing well.

"Good" and "bad" music is an opinion of the listener, there is no fact about it. You can't prove someone's music is "lame".

So did we ever get an answer to the original question or are we still out in west hell?

babynoz said:

So did we ever get an answer to the original question or are we still out in west hell?

Do you need an answer? Robin Thicke's cool but

Justin Timberlake? seriously

AlexdeParis said:

kitbradley said:

I could be wrong but I don't think he held the number one spot on both the Albums & Singles chart at the same time on the R&B side.

Faith and "One More Try" were #1 on the R&B charts 25 years ago this week.

Found it... thanks AlexdeParis.

phunkdaddy said:

babynoz said:

So did we ever get an answer to the original question or are we still out in west hell?

Do you need an answer? Robin Thicke's cool but

Justin Timberlake? seriously

I don't follow the charts but is this Timberlake's first appearance on the RnB charts?

babynoz said:

phunkdaddy said:

Do you need an answer? Robin Thicke's cool but

Justin Timberlake? seriously

I don't follow the charts but is this Timberlake's first appearance on the RnB charts?

No. In 2006 he actually just missed being the first white male to top the R&B charts since George's "One More Try" when "My Love" stalled at #2. Thicke's "Lost Without U" achieved that goal not long after that.

Timberlake's R & B singles chart history:

"Like I Love You" Peak position # 53 (2002)

"Cry Me A River" Peak position # 11 (2002)

"Rock Your Body" Peak position #53 (2003)

"Sexyback" Peak position #11 (2006)

"My Love" Peak position # 2 (2006)

"What Goes..." Peak position # 11 (2006)

"Until the End..." Peak Position # 17 (2006)

"Suit & Tie" Peak position # 2 (2013)

^^Thanks again for the info...interesting,

Not color, CULTURE. And YES culture matters. You can't remove it from the music because it is almost always the inspiration, reflection of and culmination of it.

And as I have said, this only comes up as a point in conversation when talking about African American culture.

it's not so much about the genre as much as it is about the presentation of the genre and who it's geared to

I'll never forget back in 1986-1987

Maurice STarr, former manager of New Edition infamously said, and he said it, he said if he could find five white guys who could sing and dance just as the original quintet, instead of making millions, he would make hundreds of millions of dollars.....

and he meant that......and he went about the business of doing just that, he found five white teenagers, from teh same state, the same city as New Edition, and had them start performing at the Apollo Theatre during the show SHOWTIME AT THE APOLLO

that group would become known as New Kids on the Block....

not only did he craft this group in the same mold as New Edition, but the lead singer Joey McIntyre sang just like NE'S lead singer/co-lead Ralph Tresvant

and the New Kid's first hit single....PLEASE DON'T GO GIRL (1988) was essentially a carbon copy of NE'S classic IS THIS THE END (1983)...

but see the thing is, the audience New Kids would go on to cultivate NEVER knew that's where they came up w/that song....

why the omission as to the origin, how NEW KIDS came to be, because their career existed during the construct of the Pop Ascension movement which began, if one was to trace it, I would say 1987

for the movement operated on extremes because it never RECOGNIZED OR ACKNOWLEDGED CULTURE.....

undermining the very fabric of authentic expression

so what happens in 1988 and 1989, NEW KIDS get merchandizing deals out the yazoo, every time you went to the store, you saw their likeness on everything but the kitchen sink, everything, then they go on a north american tour and was the highest grossing entertainment act of 1988-1989, earning more money than Michael Jackson himself

and while they conducted their nationwide tour, they became one of the first acts (if not the first) to perform their show to exclusive prerecorded tracks, and they admitted it on Arsenio Hall show, but the fans still flocked to the arena, and that showed me that authenticity would give way to commercialization......and this wedge led to the introduction of Milliv Vanilli, as they used prerecorded tracks on top of prerecorded tracks, and STILL earned 2 grammy awards in 1990, and that's when I knew it was only a matter of time before the grammys were finished and that the industry would be destroyed

New Edition had to sit back and watch all of that as they were given the shaft. They never got the merchandising deals even as the industry knew they performed some of the most intricate dance routines on the planet.......

see, the Pop Ascension only focused on the means to the end, rather than the end to the means....

and as the movement operated in extremes, it forced acts of authenticity to respond in extremes also......as New Edition basically disbanded, Ralph went solo, so did Johnny, and Ricky Bell, Michael Bevins, and Ronnie DeVoe formed BBD, and transition from r&b to a hybrid of and hip-hop, and not just hip-hop, but a lyrical content were a number of their songs featured sexually explicit content.........

you go from MR TELEPHONE MAN/CAN U STAND THE RAIN, to DO ME BABY/POISON

and many r&b artists of the 80s travelled the same course in order to prolong their careers, and as authenticity was pushed to the brink

see, what happens, when a culture gets exploited by the establishment, those who grew up in that culture has to exert more aggressive forms of expression in order to stand out, to be noticed, TO SURVIVE...therefore, authenticity dissipates in the process for culture can no longer flourish. The attire, the style of drass (saggin), all the way to the desecration of our body stems from this exploitation, but because of the lack of accountability by the establishment, that bitterness, and exploitation becomes internalized and projected among each other..we become botht he victim and the victimizer simultaneously, and that vulnerability reflects in the lyrical content of today.

the foundation that NEW KIDS were thrusted upon as they received national acclaim, would eventually lead to major backlash some 2 years later, and even when they try to give "props" to those whose music they emulated, they still benefited from the blood sweat and tear from those who brought forth that foundation, and the heat became so intense, eventually, they stopped performing together......see, this stuff is real...the backlash occured because the audience who they would eventually be associated with never knew that the original support New Kids received were from the black record buying consumer.....

when culture withers, so does the soul of the people who gravitated to it, who contributed to it, who nurtured it, crafted it, and shaped it........it leads to a great level of bitterness, and those who are responsible never show any form of contrition

and this bitterness stems from the racial dynamic that continues to permeate this society

While it shouldn't be about race, there stands a lack of balance and genuine freedom because of proclivity and the pathological framework this country was founded on, and always takes us back to the issue of color

it's as ugly as cancer riding on the freeway, but it's all too real

[Edited 6/26/13 18:43pm]

NDRU said:

At least it's not Miley Cyrus.

To me...it seems like music goes in "cycles" where some eras are very integrated, and some eras are very segregated.

When rap went "mainstream" it seemed as if music was finally going to be the most integrated ever...we had white & latino rappers jumping into the fray, we had rockers incorporating rap (& "scratching") and we had old-school rappers covering rock tunes.

Then everyone went their separate ways again.



Of course music SHOULD be color-blind...it's all about CULTURE anyway. But the reality is different.

Scorp said:

it's not so much about the genre as much as it is about the presentation of the genre and who it's geared to

I'll never forget back in 1986-1987

Maurice STarr, former manager of New Edition infamously said, and he said it, he said if he could find five white guys who could sing and dance just as the original quintet, instead of making millions, he would make hundreds of millions of dollars.....

and he meant that......and he went about the business of doing just that, he found five white teenagers, from teh same state, the same city as New Edition, and had them start performing at the Apollo Theatre during the show SHOWTIME AT THE APOLLO

that group would become known as New Kids on the Block....

not only did he craft this group in the same mold as New Edition, but the lead singer Joey McIntyre sang just like NE'S lead singer/co-lead Ralph Tresvant

and the New Kid's first hit single....PLEASE DON'T GO GIRL (1988) was essentially a carbon copy of NE'S classic IS THIS THE END (1983)...

but see the thing is, the audience New Kids would go on to cultivate NEVER knew that's where they came up w/that song....

why the omission as to the origin, how NEW KIDS came to be, because their career existed during the construct of the Pop Ascension movement which began, if one was to trace it, I would say 1987

for the movement operated on extremes because it never RECOGNIZED OR ACKNOWLEDGED CULTURE.....

undermining the very fabric of authentic expression

so what happens in 1988 and 1989, NEW KIDS get merchandizing deals out the yazoo, every time you went to the store, you saw their likeness on everything but the kitchen sink, everything, then they go on a north american tour and was the highest grossing entertainment act of 1988-1989, earning more money than Michael Jackson himself

and while they conducted their nationwide tour, they became one of the first acts (if not the first) to perform their show to exclusive prerecorded tracks, and they admitted it on Arsenio Hall show, but the fans still flocked to the arena, and that showed me that authenticity would give way to commercialization......and this wedge led to the introduction of Milliv Vanilli, as they used prerecorded tracks on top of prerecorded tracks, and STILL earned 2 grammy awards in 1990, and that's when I knew it was only a matter of time before the grammys were finished and that the industry would be destroyed

New Edition had to sit back and watch all of that as they were given the shaft. They never got the merchandising deals even as the industry knew they performed some of the most intricate dance routines on the planet.......

see, the Pop Ascension only focused on the means to the end, rather than the end to the means....

and as the movement operated in extremes, it forced acts of authenticity to respond in extremes also......as New Edition basically disbanded, Ralph went solo, so did Johnny, and Ricky Bell, Michael Bevins, and Ronnie DeVoe formed BBD, and transition from r&b to a hybrid of and hip-hop, and not just hip-hop, but a lyrical content were a number of their songs featured sexually explicit content.........

you go from MR TELEPHONE MAN/CAN U STAND THE RAIN, to DO ME BABY/POISON

and many r&b artists of the 80s travelled the same course in order to prolong their careers, and as authenticity was pushed to the brink

see, what happens, when a culture gets exploited by the establishment, those who grew up in that culture has to exert more aggressive forms of expression in order to stand out, to be noticed, TO SURVIVE...therefore, authenticity dissipates in the process for culture can no longer flourish. The attire, the style of drass (saggin), all the way to the desecration of our body stems from this exploitation, but because of the lack of accountability by the establishment, that bitterness, and exploitation becomes internalized and projected among each other..we become botht he victim and the victimizer simultaneously, and that vulnerability reflects in the lyrical content of today.

the foundation that NEW KIDS were thrusted upon as they received national acclaim, would eventually lead to major backlash some 2 years later, and even when they try to give "props" to those whose music they emulated, they still benefited from the blood sweat and tear from those who brought forth that foundation, and the heat became so intense, eventually, they stopped performing together......see, this stuff is real...the backlash occured because the audience who they would eventually be associated with never knew that the original support New Kids received were from the black record buying consumer.....

when culture withers, so does the soul of the people who gravitated to it, who contributed to it, who nurtured it, crafted it, and shaped it........it leads to a great level of bitterness, and those who are responsible never show any form of contrition

and this bitterness stems from the racial dynamic that continues to permeate this society

While it shouldn't be about race, there stands a lack of balance and genuine freedom because of proclivity and the pathological framework this country was founded on, and always takes us back to the issue of color

it's as ugly as cancer riding on the freeway, but it's all too real

[Edited 6/26/13 18:43pm]

That was DEEEEEEP! But, very well put! Similar situation with Eminem. Hip-Hop really didn't explode and become acceptable by the massess until he came along and most of the black rappers who were doing their thing way before him who's coat tails he was riding on were bascially forgotten about and all of a sudden, Emieim becomes the greatest artist in a genre that was developed & and was always dominated by black men.

kitbradley said:

Scorp said:

it's not so much about the genre as much as it is about the presentation of the genre and who it's geared to

I'll never forget back in 1986-1987

Maurice STarr, former manager of New Edition infamously said, and he said it, he said if he could find five white guys who could sing and dance just as the original quintet, instead of making millions, he would make hundreds of millions of dollars.....

and he meant that......and he went about the business of doing just that, he found five white teenagers, from teh same state, the same city as New Edition, and had them start performing at the Apollo Theatre during the show SHOWTIME AT THE APOLLO

that group would become known as New Kids on the Block....

not only did he craft this group in the same mold as New Edition, but the lead singer Joey McIntyre sang just like NE'S lead singer/co-lead Ralph Tresvant

and the New Kid's first hit single....PLEASE DON'T GO GIRL (1988) was essentially a carbon copy of NE'S classic IS THIS THE END (1983)...

but see the thing is, the audience New Kids would go on to cultivate NEVER knew that's where they came up w/that song....

why the omission as to the origin, how NEW KIDS came to be, because their career existed during the construct of the Pop Ascension movement which began, if one was to trace it, I would say 1987

for the movement operated on extremes because it never RECOGNIZED OR ACKNOWLEDGED CULTURE.....

undermining the very fabric of authentic expression

so what happens in 1988 and 1989, NEW KIDS get merchandizing deals out the yazoo, every time you went to the store, you saw their likeness on everything but the kitchen sink, everything, then they go on a north american tour and was the highest grossing entertainment act of 1988-1989, earning more money than Michael Jackson himself

and while they conducted their nationwide tour, they became one of the first acts (if not the first) to perform their show to exclusive prerecorded tracks, and they admitted it on Arsenio Hall show, but the fans still flocked to the arena, and that showed me that authenticity would give way to commercialization......and this wedge led to the introduction of Milliv Vanilli, as they used prerecorded tracks on top of prerecorded tracks, and STILL earned 2 grammy awards in 1990, and that's when I knew it was only a matter of time before the grammys were finished and that the industry would be destroyed

New Edition had to sit back and watch all of that as they were given the shaft. They never got the merchandising deals even as the industry knew they performed some of the most intricate dance routines on the planet.......

see, the Pop Ascension only focused on the means to the end, rather than the end to the means....

and as the movement operated in extremes, it forced acts of authenticity to respond in extremes also......as New Edition basically disbanded, Ralph went solo, so did Johnny, and Ricky Bell, Michael Bevins, and Ronnie DeVoe formed BBD, and transition from r&b to a hybrid of and hip-hop, and not just hip-hop, but a lyrical content were a number of their songs featured sexually explicit content.........

you go from MR TELEPHONE MAN/CAN U STAND THE RAIN, to DO ME BABY/POISON

and many r&b artists of the 80s travelled the same course in order to prolong their careers, and as authenticity was pushed to the brink

see, what happens, when a culture gets exploited by the establishment, those who grew up in that culture has to exert more aggressive forms of expression in order to stand out, to be noticed, TO SURVIVE...therefore, authenticity dissipates in the process for culture can no longer flourish. The attire, the style of drass (saggin), all the way to the desecration of our body stems from this exploitation, but because of the lack of accountability by the establishment, that bitterness, and exploitation becomes internalized and projected among each other..we become botht he victim and the victimizer simultaneously, and that vulnerability reflects in the lyrical content of today.

the foundation that NEW KIDS were thrusted upon as they received national acclaim, would eventually lead to major backlash some 2 years later, and even when they try to give "props" to those whose music they emulated, they still benefited from the blood sweat and tear from those who brought forth that foundation, and the heat became so intense, eventually, they stopped performing together......see, this stuff is real...the backlash occured because the audience who they would eventually be associated with never knew that the original support New Kids received were from the black record buying consumer.....

when culture withers, so does the soul of the people who gravitated to it, who contributed to it, who nurtured it, crafted it, and shaped it........it leads to a great level of bitterness, and those who are responsible never show any form of contrition

and this bitterness stems from the racial dynamic that continues to permeate this society

While it shouldn't be about race, there stands a lack of balance and genuine freedom because of proclivity and the pathological framework this country was founded on, and always takes us back to the issue of color

it's as ugly as cancer riding on the freeway, but it's all too real

[Edited 6/26/13 18:43pm]

That was DEEEEEEP! But, very well put! Similar situation with Eminem. Hip-Hop really didn't explode and become acceptable by the massess until he came along and most of the black rappers who were doing their thing way before him who's coat tails he was riding on were bascially forgotten about and all of a sudden, Emieim becomes the greatest artist in a genre that was developed & and was always dominated by black men.

The newer version of Elvis.

kitbradley said:

Similar situation with Eminem. Hip-Hop really didn't explode and become acceptable by the massess until he came along and most of the black rappers who were doing their thing way before him who's coat tails he was riding on were bascially forgotten about and all of a sudden, Emieim becomes the greatest artist in a genre that was developed & and was always dominated by black men.

Not true. Run DMC popularized rap to the mainstream, and then Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, Salt N' Pepa, and DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince. Run DMC were the 1st to get regular MTV airplay, Rolling Stone cover, and other firsts. Jeff & Fresh Prince won the 1st rap Grammy, and the Fresh Prince even got a TV show (which Jazzy Jeff appeared in) from their popularity. MC Hammer had a cartoon and a doll. Fat Boys & Vanilla Ice got movies (Disorderlies/Cool As Ice) and Vanilla Ice had a doll too. They wouldn't have gotten these things if they weren't mainstream. Whodini didn't have a TV show or movie, even though they had the 1st rap album to go platinum, but they didn't cross over. Also there were several white rappers before Eminem like the Beastie Boys, 3rd Bass, Vanilla Ice, Tairrie B, Jesse Jaymes, Young Black Teenagers, House Of Pain/Everlast, Kid Rock, and others. Even Michael Jackson had a rap group called Quo in which one of the members was white. Rick Rubin started out as a rap producer and now produces acts in many genres.

.

It's also not true that hip hop was developed by blacks only. Even though most of the acts that actually rapped/DJ were black, there was a Latino presence from the beggining, especially with breakdancing, popping, fashion, and tagging/graffiti.

[Edited 6/27/13 10:53am]

MickyDolenz said:

kitbradley said:

Similar situation with Eminem. Hip-Hop really didn't explode and become acceptable by the massess until he came along and most of the black rappers who were doing their thing way before him who's coat tails he was riding on were bascially forgotten about and all of a sudden, Emieim becomes the greatest artist in a genre that was developed & and was always dominated by black men.

Not true. Run DMC popularized rap to the mainstream, and then Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, Salt N' Pepa, and DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince. Run DMC were the 1st to get regular MTV airplay, Rolling Stone cover, and other firsts. Jeff & Fresh Prince won the 1st rap Grammy, and the Fresh Prince even got a TV show (which Jazzy Jeff appeared in) from their popularity. MC Hammer had a cartoon and a doll. Fat Boys & Vanilla Ice got movies (Disorderlies/Cool As Ice) and Vanilla Ice had a doll too. They wouldn't have gotten these things if they weren't mainstream. Whodini didn't have a TV show or movie, even though they had the 1st rap album to go platinum, but they didn't cross over. Also there were several white rappers before Eminem like the Beastie Boys, 3rd Bass, Vanilla Ice, Tairrie B, Jesse Jaymes, Young Black Teenagers, House Of Pain/Everlast, Kid Rock, and others. Even Michael Jackson had a rap group called Quo in which one of the members was white. Rick Rubin started out as a rap producer and now produces acts in many genres.

.

It's also not true that hip hop was developed by blacks only. Even though most of the acts that actually rapped/DJ were black, there was a Latino presence from the beggining, especially with breakdancing, popping, fashion, and tagging/graffiti.

[Edited 6/27/13 10:53am]

MickyDolenz said:

kitbradley said:

Similar situation with Eminem. Hip-Hop really didn't explode and become acceptable by the massess until he came along and most of the black rappers who were doing their thing way before him who's coat tails he was riding on were bascially forgotten about and all of a sudden, Emieim becomes the greatest artist in a genre that was developed & and was always dominated by black men.

Not true. Run DMC popularized rap to the mainstream, and then Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, and DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince. Run DMC were the 1st to get regular MTV airplay, Rolling Stone cover, and other firsts. Jeff & Fresh Prince won the 1st rap Grammy, and the Fresh Prince even got a TV show (which Jazzy Jeff appeared in) from their popularity. MC Hammer had a cartoon. Fat Boys & Vanilla Ice got movies (Disorderlies/Cool As Ice). They wouldn't have gotten these things if they weren't mainstream. Whodini didn't have a TV show or movie, even though they had the 1st rap album to go platinum, but they didn't cross over. Also there were several white rappers before Eminem like the Beastie Boys, 3rd Bass, Vanilla Ice, Tairrie B, Jesse Jaymes, Young Black Teenagers, House Of Pain/Everlast, Kid Rock, and others. Even Michael Jackson had a rap group called Quo in which one of the members was white. Rick Rubin started out as a rap producer and now produces acts in many genres.

.

It's also not true that hip hop was developed by blacks only. Even though most of the acts that actually rapped/DJ were black, there was a Latino presence from the beggining, especially with breakdancing, popping, fashion, and tagging/graffiti.

I was in grade school when Disco died and Hip-Hop was born and it was a music that was originated by black people. You don't have to believe me, investigate yourself. There was a Latino presence in the culture, but no where near the same as the African-American presence and influence.

I was in high school during the height of Run DMC's career. I watched as Hip-Hop went from struggling to find radio acceptance for years to overtaking the airwaves in the late 80's. DMC were even having problems getting played on black radio for the first few years of their career! The only reason why I knew they even existed was because of their music videos. The black radio stations in Michigan sure weren't playing their songs.

Yes, Run DMC played a major role popularizing Rap music outside of the black community. They had a slew of charting singles (on the R&B charts) between 1983 & 1986. However, they had to collaborate with a white rock band in order to garner their first and only Top 10 song on the Pop chart. So, yeah, they played a big part in making Hip-Hop music more mainstream (thanks to help from a Rock band) which helped other African-American Hip-Hop artists who came along after them. But, my point is, DMC or any other black hip-hop artists never experienced the same type of sales, hype, popularity, praise and acceptance by mainstream America (and especially outside of America) that Ememin has. No other Hip-Hop artists before him - Run DMC, MC Hammer, Snoop Dogg - nobody, can claim they have sold over 100 million albums or anywhere near it world-wide and have won a dozen Grammies. So, yes, he absolutely did make the genre more acceptable to the masses.

[Edited 6/27/13 11:29am]

kitbradley said:

MickyDolenz said:

Not true. Run DMC popularized rap to the mainstream, and then Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, and DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince. Run DMC were the 1st to get regular MTV airplay, Rolling Stone cover, and other firsts. Jeff & Fresh Prince won the 1st rap Grammy, and the Fresh Prince even got a TV show (which Jazzy Jeff appeared in) from their popularity. MC Hammer had a cartoon. Fat Boys & Vanilla Ice got movies (Disorderlies/Cool As Ice). They wouldn't have gotten these things if they weren't mainstream. Whodini didn't have a TV show or movie, even though they had the 1st rap album to go platinum, but they didn't cross over. Also there were several white rappers before Eminem like the Beastie Boys, 3rd Bass, Vanilla Ice, Tairrie B, Jesse Jaymes, Young Black Teenagers, House Of Pain/Everlast, Kid Rock, and others. Even Michael Jackson had a rap group called Quo in which one of the members was white. Rick Rubin started out as a rap producer and now produces acts in many genres.

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It's also not true that hip hop was developed by blacks only. Even though most of the acts that actually rapped/DJ were black, there was a Latino presence from the beggining, especially with breakdancing, popping, fashion, and tagging/graffiti.

I was in grade school when Disco died and Hip-Hop was born and it was a music that was originated by black people. You don't have to believe me, investigate yourself. There was a Latino presence in the culture, but no where near the same as the African-American presence and influence.

I was in high school during the height of Run DMC's career. I watched as Hip-Hop went from struggling to find radio acceptance for years to overtaking the airwaves in the late 80's. DMC were even having problems getting played on black radio for the first few years of their career! The only reason why I knew they even existed was because of their music videos. The black radio stations in Michigan sure weren't playing their songs.

Yes, Run DMC played a major role popularizing Rap music outside of the black community. They had a slew of charting singles (on the R&B charts) between 1983 & 1986. However, they had to collaborate with a white rock band in order to garner their first and only Top 10 song on the Pop chart. So, yeah, they played a big part in making Hip-Hop music more mainstream (thanks to help from a Rock band) which helped other African-American Hip-Hop artists who came along after them. But, my point is, DMC or any other black hip-hop artists experienced the same type of sales, hype, popularity, praise and acceptance by mainstream America (and especially outside of America) that Ememin has. No other Hip-Hop artists - Run DMC, MC Hammer, 50-Cent, Snoop Dogg - nobody, can claim they have sold over 100 million albums or anywhere near it world-wide and have won a dozen Grammies. So, yes, he absolutely did make the genre more acceptable to the masses.

[Edited 6/27/13 11:15am]

You have very valid points...HOWEVER...I respectfully disagree with your last (bolded) comment and your initial comment to which MickyD replied to.

Eminem's success is NOT a result of HIS work making the genre "more acceptable to the masses"...the genre was already entrenched in mainstream, and he rode the coat-tails of all the aforementioned artists to break out as a "superstar" (in terms of sales).

He appealed to white twentysomethings, so he sold gazzillions of albums. But those white twentysomethings were ALREADY listening to hip-hop, and rap was already being used in movies and commercials and stuff. Tone Loc was the first rap artist to have a #1 hit single. Did he have a lasting career? Nope. But that's because of the nature of hip-hop at the time. Doesn't mean that his music was any less popular with the masses. Eminem was one in a long line of white rappers...the difference is that he had the wherewithall to build his career into mega-stardom. Doesn't mean that HE specifically made the genre palatable to mainstream.

PurpleJedi said:

Eminem's success is NOT a result of HIS work making the genre "more acceptable to the masses"...the genre was already entrenched in mainstream, and he rode the coat-tails of all the aforementioned artists to break out as a "superstar" (in terms of sales).

There was also 2 Live Crew who received lots of news and media coverage, and so older people who had no idea of rap at least knew who they were, and their records started to sell to people who just wanted to see what all of the fuss was about. The situations of Elvis Presley and Eminem are totally different.

kitbradley said:

DMC were even having problems getting played on black radio for the first few years of their career! The only reason why I knew they even existed was because of their music videos. The black radio stations in Michigan sure weren't playing their songs.

I guess it depended on where you lived, as I lived in the south and I heard rap played on the R&B station, even before Run DMC. It's like Latin Freestyle was very popular locally, but apparently it was little known in other parts of the US.

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Run DMC was on MTV before Walk This Way, and like the Beastie Boys, were more popular album wise than singles wise. Many of those hair metal bands weren't that popular as far as singles go, but sold lots of albums, and were played more on AOR stations than Top 40. Hit singles isn't the only way to determine popularity, look at Pink Floyd, AC/DC, Grateful Dead, KISS, and Black Sabbath who had few if any Top 40 radio hits.