duccichucka said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't understand why race identification would matter on music...

love his new cd

You're being a bit naive, dontcha think?

If race I.D.didn't matter at all, why was it a big deal that Obama

was the 1st Black American male to be elected POTUS? In a

society free from using racial categories as a designation

for anything, let alone music, the color and parentage color

of Obama's folks wouldn't have been a big deal!

Racial identification is human nature and in and of itself harm-

less. Bigotry is the problem when dealing with race (in this context,

the color of your skin).

No I'm not, Im talking about MUSIC, I specifically said "...would matter on MUSIC..."

lol sorry you wasted all that typing

Did you really think I was talking about something other than MUSIC?

the thread says "A BLACK MAN who digs John Mayer"

So we should expect white people not to listen to non white artists etc etc

Come on, you took a mole hill and made a mountain there kiddo

Racial identifications have never stopped people from listening to and liking music from people of other ethnic backgrounds

I don't even think music stores label things as Black Music nor video/award shows

duccichucka said:

Black people for the most part, don't listen to or buy

blues albums. I went to go see Johnny Winter once and I've seen BB King

and Ray Charles (before he died) and both venues were all filled with white

people.

Like how the West is "filled with white people"? You might as well say that "[insert a colour] people for the most part don't listen to or buy [insert a genre] albums".

OldFriends4Sale said:

duccichucka said:

You're being a bit naive, dontcha think?

If race I.D.didn't matter at all, why was it a big deal that Obama

was the 1st Black American male to be elected POTUS? In a

society free from using racial categories as a designation

for anything, let alone music, the color and parentage color

of Obama's folks wouldn't have been a big deal!

Racial identification is human nature and in and of itself harm-

less. Bigotry is the problem when dealing with race (in this context,

the color of your skin).

No I'm not, Im talking about MUSIC, I specifically said "...would matter on MUSIC..."

lol sorry you wasted all that typing

Did you really think I was talking about something other than MUSIC?

the thread says "A BLACK MAN who digs John Mayer"

So we should expect white people not to listen to non white artists etc etc

Come on, you took a mole hill and made a mountain there kiddo

Racial identifications have never stopped people from listening to and liking music from people of other ethnic backgrounds

I don't even think music stores label things as Black Music nor video/award shows

Kiddo, I'm looking into a matter that would cause a Black American male to even

wonder if it was okay to like John Mayer, a White American male playing an original

Black American art form.

Record stores don't have lists/sections such as "Black Music" because they would be

accused of racism. But normatively and putatively, we all know were the Black

music section is, so cut it out. Guess what color the folks are in the country music

section?....I'm not a PC kind of guy - maybe that's the disconnect between me and

others like you who are objecting to my opinion.

And your statement about "racial indentifications..." is exactly what I warned readers

in this thread about: of course skin color doesn't stop people from enjoying and liking

music - but wait - does it?! Why does this thread exist in the first place then? Why did

the Black American male who initiated this thread qualify it based upon the color of his

skin?! Who gives a fuck that he's Black? Clearly, there are racial undertones to politics,

social conventions and yes, even music.

arX said:

duccichucka said:

Black people for the most part, don't listen to or buy

blues albums. I went to go see Johnny Winter once and I've seen BB King

and Ray Charles (before he died) and both venues were all filled with white

people.

Like how the West is "filled with white people"? You might as well say that "[insert a colour] people for the most part don't listen to or buy [insert a genre] albums".

I dunno what you're saying here. Anecdotally and based upon my own observances,

I've noticed that when I've attended jazz shows or blues shows in my lifetime, that

the audience members were predominantly white. I find this interesting considering

that these art forms were created and popularized by Black Americans! What happened?

When did Black Americans stop supporting particular original Black American art

forms? I think Rialb's posts is very on point in answering or offering an answer to me

question here...

I went to see The Temptations, a popular R&B group from the 60s, who were intitially

supported by a Black audience, at Wolftrap, a venue in Virginia back in the mid 90s.

My dad is a loyal Temptation fan since he was a teen and took me and my two other

knuckleheaded brothers. Guess who was in the audience? White people. I'd say 70%

and 30% Black. Now, that may have been attributed to the location of the venue, but

still - I find that interesting. (This paragraph has been emended from the original).

So yeah, I dunno how your post contributes to the conversation here. Can you clarify

it?

[Edited 8/28/12 14:58pm]

I bought his first album and used to love it Since then, my music taste has changed/stream-lined a lot, but I still like some of his songs... and he's pretty easy on the eyes too..

duccichucka said:

arX said:

Like how the West is "filled with white people"? You might as well say that "[insert a colour] people for the most part don't listen to or buy [insert a genre] albums".

I dunno what you're saying here. Anecdotally and based upon my own observances,

I've noticed that when I've attended jazz shows or blues shows in my lifetime, that

the audience members were predominantly white. I find this interesting considering

that these art forms were created and popularized by Black Americans! What happened?

When did Black Americans stop supporting particular original Black American art

forms?

I went to see The Temptations, a popular R&B group from the 60s, who were intitially

supported by a Black audience, at Wolftrap, a venue in Virginia back in the mid 90s.

My dad is a loyal Temptation fan since he was a teen and took me and my two other

knuckleheaded brothers. Guess who was in the audience? White people. I'd say 70%

and 30% Black. Now, that may have been attributed to the location of the venue, but

still - I find that interesting. (This paragraph has been emended from the original).

So yeah, I dunno how your post contributes to the conversation here. Can you clarify

it?

[Edited 8/28/12 14:58pm]

I'm questioning your deduction that black audiences have stopped supporting Black American art forms based on your trips to venues made up of 70% whites (incidentally the average % demographic of white people in the United States).

You tried to support this assertion earlier by contrasting jazz or "art" musicians with pop musicians while failing to recognise the blatantly obvious: pop musicians succeed financially because they're... very popular. And their audiences will still consist of a white majority for the obvious reason stated above.

thekidsgirl said:

I bought his first album and used to love it Since then, my music taste has changed/stream-lined a lot, but I still like some of his songs... and he's pretty easy on the eyes too..

He is fun to look at but then I realized a few years back that he has a ginormous noggin. It was when he was 'dating' Jessica Simpson and he was standing next to her in the picture. I was like, 'Damn, his head is big.' I think he's adorable though and I really think his voice is what draws me to his music. The man has a very nice sing voice going for him I think...very soothing and passionate at times.

After his racist comments I ignore him.

arX said:

duccichucka said:

I dunno what you're saying here. Anecdotally and based upon my own observances,

I've noticed that when I've attended jazz shows or blues shows in my lifetime, that

the audience members were predominantly white. I find this interesting considering

that these art forms were created and popularized by Black Americans! What happened?

When did Black Americans stop supporting particular original Black American art

forms?

I went to see The Temptations, a popular R&B group from the 60s, who were intitially

supported by a Black audience, at Wolftrap, a venue in Virginia back in the mid 90s.

My dad is a loyal Temptation fan since he was a teen and took me and my two other

knuckleheaded brothers. Guess who was in the audience? White people. I'd say 70%

and 30% Black. Now, that may have been attributed to the location of the venue, but

still - I find that interesting. (This paragraph has been emended from the original).

So yeah, I dunno how your post contributes to the conversation here. Can you clarify

it?

[Edited 8/28/12 14:58pm]

I'm questioning your deduction that black audiences have stopped supporting Black American art forms based on your trips to venues made up of 70% whites (incidentally the average % demographic of white people in the United States).

You tried to support this assertion earlier by contrasting jazz or "art" musicians with pop musicians while failing to recognise the blatantly obvious: pop musicians succeed financially because they're... very popular. And their audiences will still consist of a white majority for the obvious reason stated above.

I'm deducing that Black Americans do not support Black American serious art forms, such

as jazz, as much as their White American counter-parts. This is very distinct and discrete

from what you are accusing me of stating. Until you recognize this distinction, I'm pretty

sure the rest of your argument is moot.

Well...A Black woman can dig John Mayer too Gravity is still my shit

duccichucka said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

No I'm not, Im talking about MUSIC, I specifically said "...would matter on MUSIC..."

lol sorry you wasted all that typing

Did you really think I was talking about something other than MUSIC?

the thread says "A BLACK MAN who digs John Mayer"

So we should expect white people not to listen to non white artists etc etc

Come on, you took a mole hill and made a mountain there kiddo

Racial identifications have never stopped people from listening to and liking music from people of other ethnic backgrounds

I don't even think music stores label things as Black Music nor video/award shows

Kiddo, I'm looking into a matter that would cause a Black American male to even

wonder if it was okay to like John Mayer, a White American male playing an original

Black American art form.

Record stores don't have lists/sections such as "Black Music" because they would be

accused of racism. But normatively and putatively, we all know were the Black

music section is, so cut it out. Guess what color the folks are in the country music

section?....I'm not a PC kind of guy - maybe that's the disconnect between me and

others like you who are objecting to my opinion.

And your statement about "racial indentifications..." is exactly what I warned readers

in this thread about: of course skin color doesn't stop people from enjoying and liking

music - but wait - does it?! Why does this thread exist in the first place then? Why did

the Black American male who initiated this thread qualify it based upon the color of his

skin?! Who gives a fuck that he's Black? Clearly, there are racial undertones to politics,

social conventions and yes, even music.

Yeah you've really blown it out of proportion lol

I was not talking at all about racial labels or issues in politics or any other era according to your other response. I was just directely talking about him questioning if it was "PC" for him to listen to John M

And then you respond with me being naive, if I would have said that in a general discussion Yeah, but in this defined discussion, No

It fogs up the discussion when you bring everything from Politics Religion Countries etc into a discussion about a "black" man listening to John Mayer

No, it depends on the record store, artists can be catagorized according to genre

and in 1985 music awards had a Black catagory

... i really don't believe in 2012 that there are racial undertones to music and who can listen to what or not

babybugz said:

After his racist comments I ignore him.

Read his recent Rolling Stone Magsazine article. I'm sure it's online.

OldFriends4Sale said:

duccichucka said:

Kiddo, I'm looking into a matter that would cause a Black American male to even

wonder if it was okay to like John Mayer, a White American male playing an original

Black American art form.

Record stores don't have lists/sections such as "Black Music" because they would be

accused of racism. But normatively and putatively, we all know were the Black

music section is, so cut it out. Guess what color the folks are in the country music

section?....I'm not a PC kind of guy - maybe that's the disconnect between me and

others like you who are objecting to my opinion.

And your statement about "racial indentifications..." is exactly what I warned readers

in this thread about: of course skin color doesn't stop people from enjoying and liking

music - but wait - does it?! Why does this thread exist in the first place then? Why did

the Black American male who initiated this thread qualify it based upon the color of his

skin?! Who gives a fuck that he's Black? Clearly, there are racial undertones to politics,

social conventions and yes, even music.

Yeah you've really blown it out of proportion lol

I was not talking at all about racial labels or issues in politics or any other era according to your other response. I was just directely talking about him questioning if it was "PC" for him to listen to John M

And then you respond with me being naive, if I would have said that in a general discussion Yeah, but in this defined discussion, No

It fogs up the discussion when you bring everything from Politics Religion Countries etc into a discussion about a "black" man listening to John Mayer

No, it depends on the record store, artists can be catagorized according to genre

and in 1985 music awards had a Black catagory

... i really don't believe in 2012 that there are racial undertones to music and who can listen to what or not

Yo, I'm not going to apologize for having or at least attempting, to give a bird's eye view

on why a Black dude feels compelled to admit that he likes a White blues player. If you

don't like or appreciate my attempt to give a bird's eye view on a topic concerning a Black

person liking John Mayer, keep it moving: I didn't ask you to respond to my post in the

first place...

The thread contains the word "Black." And my posts have been nothing but musings on

that, yes, "racial label" where the words "Black Man" are clearly a loaded phrase. You're a

moderator: if this thread is too much of deeper discussion than John Mayer's music, move

it to Politics & Religion where I can explain to you why I think that the notion that music

today doesn't contain racial undertones is certainly naive!

estelle81 said:

thekidsgirl said:

I bought his first album and used to love it Since then, my music taste has changed/stream-lined a lot, but I still like some of his songs... and he's pretty easy on the eyes too..

He is fun to look at but then I realized a few years back that he has a ginormous noggin. It was when he was 'dating' Jessica Simpson and he was standing next to her in the picture. I was like, 'Damn, his head is big.' I think he's adorable though and I really think his voice is what draws me to his music. The man has a very nice sing voice going for him I think...very soothing and passionate at times.

Considering the size of my own head, his looks normal

duccichucka said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yeah you've really blown it out of proportion lol

I was not talking at all about racial labels or issues in politics or any other era according to your other response. I was just directely talking about him questioning if it was "PC" for him to listen to John M

And then you respond with me being naive, if I would have said that in a general discussion Yeah, but in this defined discussion, No

It fogs up the discussion when you bring everything from Politics Religion Countries etc into a discussion about a "black" man listening to John Mayer

No, it depends on the record store, artists can be catagorized according to genre

and in 1985 music awards had a Black catagory

... i really don't believe in 2012 that there are racial undertones to music and who can listen to what or not

Yo, I'm not going to apologize for having or at least attempting, to give a bird's eye view

on why a Black dude feels compelled to admit that he likes a White blues player. If you

don't like or appreciate my attempt to give a bird's eye view on a topic concerning a Black

person liking John Mayer, keep it moving: I didn't ask you to respond to my post in the

first place...

The thread contains the word "Black." And my posts have been nothing but musings on

that, yes, "racial label" where the words "Black Man" are clearly a loaded phrase. You're a

moderator: if this thread is too much of deeper discussion than John Mayer's music, move

it to Politics & Religion where I can explain to you why I think that the notion that music

today doesn't contain racial undertones is certainly naive!

Never asked for an apology

You should have gave a general response to your musing then instead of responding to my little post. You refered to me an naive, (because I obviously wasn't musing the way you were)

U could have given a general MUSING post instead of replying to my question of why ... I know how race and race labels work, but in 2012 people listen to music across the board, I just don't know of people who have issues with it, Sorry for being so naive

Stay on topic just because Black is in a thread doesn't mean we need to talk about everything Black, just the simple topic,

This is how most thread veer off into other debates discussions and arguement, most of the time never addressing the individual persons question.

Just look at how far it's gone already

nursev said:

Well...A Black woman can dig John Mayer too Gravity is still my shit

I love his new album

I believe that his song are very 'real' tangible, you can feel his struggles flaws passions lust fears quiet times etc

As long as he continues he will be successful

xpertluva said:

I used to be so turned off by Mayer's public persona that I didn't really bother checking out his music. However, I've been listening to some of his songs lately and I like a lot of it, especially "I don't trust myself (with loving you)" and "Vultures."

Does anybody have any favs of his? How do you rank him as a guitarist?

So I will ask U directly, what about being Black makes you like John Mayer??

What was it about his public persona that as a Black man you didn't like?

rialb said:

I'm not really a fan of Mayer but I find it amusing that for some black men it is somewhat embarrassing to admit that you like his music. I guess he does have a very "white" image, particularly his early material, but people should just like what they like and not care what others think.

I never saw him as being 'very white'

He's very scruffy and 'on the edges of society' like almost a combo of Rural/Urban

OldFriends4Sale said:

duccichucka said:

Yo, I'm not going to apologize for having or at least attempting, to give a bird's eye view

on why a Black dude feels compelled to admit that he likes a White blues player. If you

don't like or appreciate my attempt to give a bird's eye view on a topic concerning a Black

person liking John Mayer, keep it moving: I didn't ask you to respond to my post in the

first place...

The thread contains the word "Black." And my posts have been nothing but musings on

that, yes, "racial label" where the words "Black Man" are clearly a loaded phrase. You're a

moderator: if this thread is too much of deeper discussion than John Mayer's music, move

it to Politics & Religion where I can explain to you why I think that the notion that music

today doesn't contain racial undertones is certainly naive!

Never asked for an apology

You should have gave a general response to your musing then instead of responding to my little post. You refered to me an naive, (because I obviously wasn't musing the way you were)

U could have given a general MUSING post instead of replying to my question of why ... I know how race and race labels work, but in 2012 people listen to music across the board, I just don't know of people who have issues with it, Sorry for being so naive

Stay on topic just because Black is in a thread doesn't mean we need to talk about everything Black, just the simple topic,

This is how most thread veer off into other debates discussions and arguement, most of the time never addressing the individual persons question.

Just look at how far it's gone already

I never said you did ask me for an apology. In fact, I want you to show me how

and where my posts are not on topic about a Black man digging John Mayer.

You wrote:

I don't understand why race identification would matter on music...

...and I think that's naive. Black artists for years were not given the same opportunity

that were given to white artists. I understand your sentiment here: that music

has no color; that people should like whatever they want regardless of color. That is

naive when I consider the entire history of how Black American artists have been

treated in America. If you don't understand how being Black (a racial identification)

applies to gospel, blues, jazz music (which are all expressions of being Black in

a racist country), I will ask if you aren't being naive. I addressed the individual's

question: I said John Mayer sucks, is corny, and that his popularity is due to white

Americans apotheosizing one of their own who can play or has the chops to play a

Black American art form; I said Continuum contains nothing that I found interesting;

I suggested Johnny Winter as a formidable blues/rock guitarist who is a much more

interesting guitar player. I even mentioned that Miles Davis also said the same about

Gerry Mulligan: Miles, in his autobiography, claimed that white people make a big deal

out of white artists who can play Black American music forms capably. Please tell me

how I ventured off topic...

I then wondered why the Black man who started this thread had to qualify it with his

racial identity. Now, I am not going to change my posting style which makes an

attempt to approach a thread I'm interested in with more than one hermeneutic.

OldFriends4Sale said:

xpertluva said:

I used to be so turned off by Mayer's public persona that I didn't really bother checking out his music. However, I've been listening to some of his songs lately and I like a lot of it, especially "I don't trust myself (with loving you)" and "Vultures."

Does anybody have any favs of his? How do you rank him as a guitarist?

So I will ask U directly, what about being Black makes you like John Mayer??

What was it about his public persona that as a Black man you didn't like?

Wait a second...are you being a bit hypocritical here? I've already asked this

question and you accused me of taking the thread off topic by doing so. You

even said that my question posed to the thread initiator would be better served

in the Politics & Religion forum and here you are asking the same question I've

asked already? What gives, dude?

Also, I'd like to see how you w/could respond in the new Robin Thicke thread where

he's making an attempt to do "black disco."

OldFriends4Sale said:

xpertluva said:

I used to be so turned off by Mayer's public persona that I didn't really bother checking out his music. However, I've been listening to some of his songs lately and I like a lot of it, especially "I don't trust myself (with loving you)" and "Vultures."

Does anybody have any favs of his? How do you rank him as a guitarist?

So I will ask U directly, what about being Black makes you like John Mayer??

What was it about his public persona that as a Black man you didn't like?

Honestly, it was just a funny comment (at least I thought) on how John Mayer's music is generally thought of as "blues light," the same way Kenny G's music is regarded as not really being authentic jazz. However, to my ears, skin color isn't truly an issue. If I like it, I like it.

At the same time, I see where some of the other posters are going with the underlying social and political factors behind the music scene. Record companies saw the potential to make money with black art forms, leading to black artists getting gypped for their royalties, while their white peers made fortunes because they were deemed "safe" for white consumers. Now, for some reason (and I'd actually love to know why), black audiences have pretty much turned a deaf ear to many forms of music we, as a people, created (which I imagine is a part of the reason some black people might be embarassed about listening to certain artists). Was all of that in my head when I created this thread - absolutely not.

xpertluva said:

At the same time, I see where some of the other posters are going with the underlying social and political factors behind the music scene. Record companies saw the potential to make money with black art forms, leading to black artists getting gypped for their royalties, while their white peers made fortunes because they were deemed "safe" for white consumers. Now, for some reason (and I'd actually love to know why), black audiences have pretty much turned a deaf ear to many forms of music we, as a people, created (which I imagine is a part of the reason some black people might be embarassed about listening to certain artists). Was all of that in my head when I created this thread - absolutely not.

Yes, and I agree.

When you have a black man making a confessional thread about liking a white blues

player; when you consider that blues is really a black american art form, you must

consider the underlying social and political and economical factors that go along with

this thread. I didn't do anything that was out of line in bringing these subject up in

this thread.

All of your post is well said, Xpert; you actually did a better job than I did. I'm too

wordy sometimes...

duccichucka said:

xpertluva said:

At the same time, I see where some of the other posters are going with the underlying social and political factors behind the music scene. Record companies saw the potential to make money with black art forms, leading to black artists getting gypped for their royalties, while their white peers made fortunes because they were deemed "safe" for white consumers. Now, for some reason (and I'd actually love to know why), black audiences have pretty much turned a deaf ear to many forms of music we, as a people, created (which I imagine is a part of the reason some black people might be embarassed about listening to certain artists). Was all of that in my head when I created this thread - absolutely not.

Yes, and I agree.

When you have a black man making a confessional thread about liking a white blues

player; when you consider that blues is really a black american art form, you must

consider the underlying social and political and economical factors that go along with

this thread. I didn't do anything that was out of line in bringing these subject up in

this thread.

All of your post is well said, Xpert; you actually did a better job than I did. I'm too

wordy sometimes...

Thanks! Don't stress being too wordy. One of my college professors said the same thing about my writing. We just like to be understood. Besides, I enjoyed reading the debate.

thekidsgirl said:

estelle81 said:

He is fun to look at but then I realized a few years back that he has a ginormous noggin. It was when he was 'dating' Jessica Simpson and he was standing next to her in the picture. I was like, 'Damn, his head is big.' I think he's adorable though and I really think his voice is what draws me to his music. The man has a very nice sing voice going for him I think...very soothing and passionate at times.

Considering the size of my own head, his looks normal

I'm sure ur noggin is no where near Mayer size proportions

duccichucka said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

So I will ask U directly, what about being Black makes you like John Mayer??

What was it about his public persona that as a Black man you didn't like?

Wait a second...are you being a bit hypocritical here? I've already asked this

question and you accused me of taking the thread off topic by doing so. You

even said that my question posed to the thread initiator would be better served

in the Politics & Religion forum and here you are asking the same question I've

asked already? What gives, dude?

Also, I'd like to see how you w/could respond in the new Robin Thicke thread where

he's making an attempt to do "black disco."

No, not at all, I never said we shouldn't talk about race, I said let's stay on focus of the statement made. I wasn't saying anything you've stated 'socially/historically' isn't real. But I see what happened as me going to the person face 2 face asking 'why' and you taking a 2 yr college course and then after reading and studying coming back and askin 'why'

What question did you ask that I said was taking it off topic. If you asked the originator of the post a specific question about why... I would not say your taking the topic in a different direction.

Again my question was more narrow, it was a question to xpertluva about his reasoning, because it seemed more personal that having to fully understand the "history of Black people in America"

and according to xpertluva response to my question,

Honestly, it was just a funny comment (at least I thought) on how John Mayer's music is generally thought of as "blues light," the same way Kenny G's music is regarded as not really being authentic jazz. However, to my ears, skin color isn't truly an issue. If I like it, I like it. -xpertluva

so to him it was a light "funny comment" and I was called naive