Dren5 said:

Graycap23 said:

Musical Genius:

Prince

Stevie Wonder

Ray Charles

Bootsy

Donny Hathaway

Quincy Jones (maybe)

................................that is it 4 human existence.

It's wild to me the way you always try to pass your subjective opinions off as absolute law.

That is way U 2 take them.

It's just an opinion.

[Edited 2/1/12 9:36am]

smoothcriminal12 said:

Graycap23 said:

Genius? I can't think of a single one.

Hell..........I can OLNY think of a few men in that catagory. That word is seriously over used.

The folks listed so far in this thread come no where near Genius level.

Joni Mitchell?

Yes, absolutely.

mjscarousal said:

duccichucka said:

The problem is that that word, "genius," has lost its original meaning. Today it is

simply used to express what the word "exemplary" means. Marvin Gaye, The Beatles,

Prince and Stevie Wonder aren't geniuses in the true sense of the word. What you

really mean to say is that those artists are "extraordinary."

True genius as understood by psychologists is rare and therefore, not only will it be

hard to find an example of it inhabited in a female, but in a male as well.

But you're right. The problem here isn't that genius is relegated mostly to men; it's the

fact that history and the human narrative is told mostly by men! Therefore, you'll

see more examples of male excellence (and genius) before you'll see/read about female examples. It's totally sexist how the human story gets told or is celebrated.

I agree with this but I disagree with the sexist portion. In reality their arent alot of female singers that are also musicians that have had a major profound influence on music such as Prince and Stevie Wonder. I am not saying they arent but I am suggesting that is a major reason as to why female musicians get looked over. If their are more men then women in a certain field.. then yes of course their will be more men telling the story of music and portrayels so in a sense it is slightly biased but I think if their were more women that were musicians as well that had the same influence they would get talked about as well....

If you look at current entertainers now... MORE women are celebrated more then men.. NOT necessarily because its a biased but currently their are more mainstream popular female entertainers then males.. not saying their arent any males but their are more females on a bigger level so their going to be talked about more...

I think you are mistaken.

If there is a lack of influential women in the arts, it's because, like any science

or art on earth, it is dominated by the opinion, norms and standards

set upon by men. We are (unfairly) the positers of what is to be normative

in this culture - don't get it twisted. To suggest otherwise is just flat out

wrong and means that you need to pick up a book.

Astonishingly, I don't know how you can then say that current women entertainers are

celebrated moreso then men; but let's say that I grant you that. It still doesn't

mean that these celebrated women are celebrated because society is recognizing

them as geniuses and simply as "exemplary."

.................

The way the word "genius" is being used in this thread in describing Joni Mitchell,

Bjork, et. al. is a clear demonstration of how the original meaning of the word

has morphed into something else.

If Mozart is putatively accepted as a musical genius, I would ask that someone

qualify how Joni Mitchell is as well. I would venture to remark that only students

of music and/or musicians with an understanding of psychology, sociology and biology

can best accurately qualify what a musical genius is: when I think of Beethoven's

late string quartets and the body of work offered by Joni Mitchell, "genius" is not a

word I would use when drawing a comparison.

I agree with the statement made earlier about there being one musical genius in

history: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Everybody else celebrated is simply supremely

talented or gifted.

EDIT:

Ha!

I just remembered that there was an article written a couple of years ago in which

the researchers indicated that Mozart may not have been a genius: he was simply

dedicated, hard working and astute musician blessed with great talent. I'm telling y'all

(and there are a few others too), that true genius is fucking rare.

[Edited 2/1/12 11:21am]

duccichucka said:

I think you are mistaken.

If there is a lack of influential women in the arts, it's because, like any science

or art on earth, it is dominated by the opinion, norms and standards

set upon by men. We are (unfairly) the positers of what is to be normative

in this culture - don't get it twisted. To suggest otherwise is just flat out

wrong and means that you need to pick up a book.

I think you are not understanding my point at all... I get the point that you are implying I exactly agree with it. However... their isnt alot of "influential" female musical geniuses or female singers that are held very high for being musically inclined.. and thats the truth.

There probably are some female singers that play instruments but probably not have been as influential as lets say their male counterparts. I get the point you are making but I do not think it is soley based on that. The media has no problem in recognizing great female vocalist and entertainers that have paved the way...well known influential ones. I admit they dont acknowledge alot of other legends, icons or people that have been influential but just looking at female musicians that are singers its not really a whole lot. If you noticed the replies in this thread most of them have been consistent with the same singers and have been no higher than five females which I still think are not worthy of the title.

duccichucka said:

Astonishingly, I don't know how you can then say that current women entertainers are

celebrated moreso then men; but let's say that I grant you that. It still doesn't

mean that these celebrated women are celebrated because society is recognizing

them as geniuses and simply as "exemplary."

.................

That is not what I said at all or was implying. I used a different example comparing it against the arguement that you making which was that males dominant everything in this society and have controll over who gets the most recognition.

I said that currently... we have more female entertainers getting more attention, praised and marketing then male entertainers. I also said that doesnt necessarily mean their are more female entertainers than men but currently their are more popular female entertainers and singers that get alot more praised than males. Currently their isnt alot of mainstream male singers getting the same attention on a big scale as the female are..

In me acknowledging that fact doesnt me in anyway I am implying those female singers are geniuses because that was not the point in me using them as an example. The point was to show that females have had dominance in the music industry. Of course males have it overall but women get about the same attention and praise as men sometimes even more.

In this particular case related to musical geniuses not so much because their hasnt really been a female singer that has really enhanced or has been greatly influential in the composition area...

If you look at Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye... they have influenced generations and have changed music entirely... What female as done that from a musical stand point?

duccichucka said:

The way the word "genius" is being used in this thread in describing Joni Mitchell,

Bjork, et. al. is a clear demonstration of how the original meaning of the word

has morphed into something else.

Well being a genius and being a musical genius ARE two different things.. so they do mean different things and they mean different things to different people. Based on this thread, people classify musical genius differently that others. Me personally, I think the title is redundant and people use it carelessly.. not everyone is going to be a musical genius or a legend no matter how good they are.

duccichucka said:

If Mozart is putatively accepted as a musical genius, I would ask that someone

qualify how Joni Mitchell is as well. I would venture to remark that only students

of music and/or musicians with an understanding of psychology, sociology and biology

can best accurately qualify what a musical genius is: when I think of Beethoven's

late string quartets and the body of work offered by Joni Mitchell, "genius" is not a

word I would use when drawing a comparison.

Well first off I am a psychology major... firstly and have taken classes in each of those related fields..

and secondly you do NOT need to have a grasp of any of those sub fields to determine who a musical genius is.. Having an understand of the music industry and the history of it helps alot though but obviously since it has different meanings to different people the meaning is not going to be the same. However, like you said which I do agree with.. it is a title that means alot and should not be carelessly labeled.

Like I said their isnt a female singer that I would classify as a musical genius and I dont see how Stevie Wonder or Prince material and abilities should be ranked lower compared to Beethoven's just because he makes classical... thats really all subjective... Just like their will never be a Beethoven.. their will never be another Stevie or Prince.. you not giving them any credit at all.. They deserve to be called musical geniuses..

duccichucka said:

I agree with the statement made earlier about there being one musical genius in

history: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Everybody else celebrated is simply supremely

talented or gifted.

I just remembered that there was an article written a couple of years ago in which

the researchers indicated that Mozart may not have been a genius: he was simply

dedicated, hard working and astute musician blessed with great talent. I'm telling y'all

(and there are a few others too), that true genius is fucking rare.

[Edited 2/1/12 11:21am]

It is rare... my list of musical geniuses are very low exactly just like 4 or 5 people... However, I am not sure if your reason for thinking Prince or Marvin not deserving their title has to do with them not making classical music??

Quite frankly Mozart does nothing for me... he is a genius and all but I dont listen to his music..

Do you listen to his music? Or are you basing this opinion off of an article?

duccichucka said:

I would venture to remark that only students

of music and/or musicians with an understanding of psychology, sociology and biology

can best accurately qualify what a musical genius is:

How incredibly elitist of you.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Graycap23 said:

Genius? I can't think of a single one.

Hell..........I can OLNY think of a few men in that catagory. That word is seriously over used.

The folks listed so far in this thread come no where near Genius level.

Joni Mitchell?

Joni does nothing 4 me so I can't put her in any meaningful catagory.

Graycap23 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Joni Mitchell?

Joni does nothing 4 me so I can't put her in any meaningful catagory.

But does that make it less so? Prince doesn't do anything for me but the man is a brillian talent.

=====================

[Edited 2/1/12 12:31pm]

Graycap23 said:

Genius? I can't think of a single one.

Hell..........I can OLNY think of a few men in that catagory. That word is seriously over used.

The folks listed so far in this thread come no where near Genius level.

I was gonna say...

I am sure there are many creative and talented female musicians, but Sade is a genius now?!

smoothcriminal12 said:

duccichucka said:

I would venture to remark that only students

of music and/or musicians with an understanding of psychology, sociology and biology

can best accurately qualify what a musical genius is:

How incredibly elitist of you.

You can say this about the whole thread, since it only contains acts from the USA and England and mainly R&B at that. There's places where Michael Jackson and The Beatles are unknown, so I'm pretty sure these acts are not known everywhere worldwide and so don't have that much of an influence to music overall.

TD3 said:

Graycap23 said:

Joni does nothing 4 me so I can't put her in any meaningful catagory.

But does that make it less so? Prince doesn't do anything for me but the man is a brillian talent.

=====================

[Edited 2/1/12 12:31pm]

Less so 4 me............

Graycap23 said:

TD3 said:

But does that make it less so? Prince doesn't do anything for me but the man is a brilliant talent.

=====================

[Edited 2/1/12 12:31pm]

Less so 4 me............

Understood.

smoothcriminal12 said:

duccichucka said:

I would venture to remark that only students

of music and/or musicians with an understanding of psychology, sociology and biology

can best accurately qualify what a musical genius is:

How incredibly elitist of you.

I don't have a problem with this and neither should you if you just

thought about it for a second.

If you have a question about cosmology; would you rather hear

the opinion of an astrophysicist or a chef?

Again, some of the people in this thread are using the word "genius"

to simply say "good" or "great." Science contains a few putative

geniuses and it is agreed that such a person, male or female, is truly

rare. There are hundreds of thousands of talented scientists dotted

through out history; but there aren't too many Isaac Newtons and Albert

Einsteins.

But folks are rattling off musician names as if geniuses are quotidian.

Amos

Badu

Lennox

Elliott

Marie

Lopes.

silverchild said:

Teena Marie has to be in the top tier, along with the others people have mentioned. Aretha is another one. [Edited 1/31/12 22:46pm]

Lady Tee fo' sho'!

TD3 said:

Graycap23 said:

Joni does nothing 4 me so I can't put her in any meaningful catagory.

Prince doesn't do anything for me

Well THAT'S rare to see around here.

whitechocolatebrotha said:

silverchild said:

Teena Marie has to be in the top tier, along with the others people have mentioned. Aretha is another one. [Edited 1/31/12 22:46pm]

Lady Tee fo' sho'!

She is to me too.

duccichucka said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

How incredibly elitist of you.

I don't have a problem with this and neither should you if you just

thought about it for a second.

If you have a question about cosmology; would you rather hear

the opinion of an astrophysicist or a chef?

Again, some of the people in this thread are using the word "genius"

to simply say "good" or "great." Science contains a few putative

geniuses and it is agreed that such a person, male or female, is truly

rare. There are hundreds of thousands of talented scientists dotted

through out history; but there aren't too many Isaac Newtons and Albert

Einsteins.

But folks are rattling off musician names as if geniuses are quotidian.

I'd wager that "musical genius" is much harder to define than "scientific genius", and I think that's the vibe I'm getting from your posts.

I think when you say musical genius, it's usually in the opinion of someone who think one's talent was so elevating that they couldn't imagine anyone else doing that and that's why they came up with the term "musical genius". Just my two cents.

MJCarousal says:

I think you are not understanding my point at all... I get the point that you are implying I exactly agree with it. However... their isnt alot of "influential" female musical geniuses or female singers that are held very high for being musically inclined.. and thats the truth.

You are misunderstanding me! First of all, I'm really not implying anything - I'm saying

it explicity: the reason why we do not see examples of female musical geniuses is

because of two reasons:

1. It is rare to find a true genius; no, not someone who is "great," "good," or even

"brilliant." But a true genius is rare.

2. Men tell the story and have been telling the story of humanity since the conception

of history began, therefore, you are going to see a male version of a male dominated

world, particularly in our westernly conceived society.

These are the reasons why you don't see female musical geniuses: men tell the story, so

you're going to see more men geniuses and genius in and of itself is rare.

There probably are some female singers that play instruments but probably not have been as influential as lets say their male counterparts. I get the point you are making but I do not think it is soley based on that. The media has no problem in recognizing great female vocalist and entertainers that have paved the way...well known influential ones. I admit they dont acknowledge alot of other legends, icons or people that have been influential but just looking at female musicians that are singers its not really a whole lot. If you noticed the replies in this thread most of them have been consistent with the same singers and have been no higher than five females which I still think are not worthy of the title.

What the media does today in acknowledging the talents and influence of women still does

not mean that these celebrated female musicians are genius. Again, language is not a

static aspect of our existence - it changes. The word genius and its meaning has changed

over time. It simply refers to qualities known as "brilliant" or "outstanding" these days.

Influence is not the totality of genius. Madonna is not a genius because she's influential.

You keep going on and on about praise. But praise is not an indication of genius. It is

an indication of praise! Female musicians receiving the same amount of praise that men

receive is due to our society's recognition that it is male centered.

Like I said their isnt a female singer that I would classify as a musical genius and I dont see how Stevie Wonder or Prince material and abilities should be ranked lower compared to Beethoven's just because he makes classical... thats really all subjective... Just like their will never be a Beethoven.. their will never be another Stevie or Prince.. you not giving them any credit at all.. They deserve to be called musical geniuses..

This is a very bad argument. You are confusing originality for genius. Originality may in

fact be a component of genius, but it does not on its own merits make one a genius. This

has nothing to do with genres of music: this has to do with what the word truly means or

how it is going to be used. When you say that Prince/Stevie/Beethoven/Mozart are geniuses,

what you are really saying is that you think they are outstanding. I don't use the word that way

because I understand genius to be rare and a very complicated and complex phenomenon.

Prince and Stevie Wonder are wondrously talented. That's as far as I'm willing to go. And

shame on you for being a psych major and not paying attention in class.

It is rare... my list of musical geniuses are very low exactly just like 4 or 5 people... However, I am not sure if your reason for thinking Prince or Marvin not deserving their title has to do with them not making classical music??

Of course not! I love Prince and I think What's Goin' On is the best pop album ever recorded.

However, I use the word "genius" differently than you do: I lean towards Mozart being a

musical genius. I cannot call Mozart a genius and call Marvin Gaye and Prince geniuses in

the same breath. I know better than that. You guys are using the word differently than what

I conceive of the constituents of that word.

Prince is a brilliant musician who works hard and has a tremendous gift. That does not

necessarily make him a genius - it doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't as well. All I'm

saying is that if I call Mozart a genius, then another genius better sure as hell match

the qualities I believe to be genius in Mozart as well! More on Mozart....

Quite frankly Mozart does nothing for me... he is a genius and all but I dont listen to his music..

Do you listen to his music? Or are you basing this opinion off of an article?

Yes, I listen to Mozart daily. But that is besides the point.

I am not sure if Mozart is a genius or simply a brilliant musician who worked very hard.

Again, genius is rare; I am not a psychologist, musicologist, sociologist, or biologist who

can qualify/quantify what a genius is or isn't. But I do know that if Mozart is/was a genius,

and as someone who studies music, I feel qualified to assert that if I judge the quality of

his work, the influence of his music, the breadth of his output, his musical virtuosity, his

ability to sight read perfectly, his perfect pitch, his improvization skills, his memory and

ability for musical recall, that Patrice fucking Rushen ain't no goddamn musical genius.

Proof is in the pudding: someone tell me why such and such is a genius. And I'll then

explain why I believe Mozart could be one.

Sorry for any errors: I gotta run to class.

smoothcriminal12 said:

duccichucka said:

I don't have a problem with this and neither should you if you just

thought about it for a second.

If you have a question about cosmology; would you rather hear

the opinion of an astrophysicist or a chef?

Again, some of the people in this thread are using the word "genius"

to simply say "good" or "great." Science contains a few putative

geniuses and it is agreed that such a person, male or female, is truly

rare. There are hundreds of thousands of talented scientists dotted

through out history; but there aren't too many Isaac Newtons and Albert

Einsteins.

But folks are rattling off musician names as if geniuses are quotidian.

I'd wager that "musical genius" is much harder to define than "scientific genius", and I think that's the vibe I'm getting from your posts.

Nope.

I'm saying the word itself is hard to define.

I'm not saying you guys are misuing it; I'm saying that you are

using it differently.

But think about it:

Isaac Newton

Mozart

Einstein

Beethoven (maybe)

Miles Davis (maybe)

Patrice Rushen

Teena Marie

LOL!

smoothcriminal12 said:

TD3 said:

Prince doesn't do anything for me

Well THAT'S rare to see around here.

yeah, i know i've taken a lil' bit of grief but dammit i'm standing my ground. Harle says she praying for me, calling on all faiths and deities.

duccichucka said:

men tell the story

You mean white men.

TD3 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Well THAT'S rare to see around here.

yeah, i know i've taken a lil' bit of grief but dammit i'm standing my ground. Harle says she praying for me, calling on all faiths and deities.

duccichucka said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I'd wager that "musical genius" is much harder to define than "scientific genius", and I think that's the vibe I'm getting from your posts.

Isaac Newton

Mozart

Einstein

Beethoven (maybe)

Miles Davis (maybe)

Patrice Rushen

Teena Marie

LOL!

Yeah, you're right.

TD3 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Well THAT'S rare to see around here.

yeah, i know i've taken a lil' bit of grief but dammit i'm standing my ground. Harle says she praying for me, calling on all faiths and deities.

You mean white men.

Uh-oh.

Tori Amos and Kate Bush.

smoothcriminal12 said:

TD3 said:

You mean white men.

Uh-oh.

i'm not gonna even touch that.

smoothcriminal12 said:

duccichucka said:

Isaac Newton

Mozart

Einstein

Beethoven (maybe)

Miles Davis (maybe)

Patrice Rushen

Teena Marie

LOL!

Yeah, you're right.

Hehehe...

BUT!

The problem is: (white) men are telling these stories.

If women were the keepers of time and space (history), maybe

shit would be told, explained and chronicled differently.

For example: when my wife is explaining how her day went (her history),

she tells her story in a different manner than I do. I give facts and I have

a point to my story. She gives feelings, emotions, glosses over facts,

has 48 points to her story and expects me to support her 48 points or my black

ass is sleeping on the couch.

On second thought, let's not give women the right to tell history, the crazy fucks.

Wendy Carlos.