TheFreakerFantastic said:

jonylawson said:

Yes i guess i am.

MJ fans always come acr....well look we all seen them on the TV

no idea what madonna fans are like...usually it seems middle aged and homosexual

Yes, they do seem to be don't they?

No. I'm not middle aged. lol. I'm 16...

I can name a lot of fans that are not middle aged and not gay.

OldFriends4Sale said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

Just wondering if in the Madonna forums you get people complaining about her business / lack of albums (last one was 2008) or do you think they are more gushing and respectful?

Also MJ...were they more cohesive or do you think they were split down the middle due to those believing he was up to no good and those who thought he was an angel...

If I was a Madonna fan i would say:

1) Why are you trying to chase trends?

2) What happened to the 80s sound?

3) Is gyrating in leotards dignified for a 53 year old? Is it sexy? Because to me that's not sexy...

4) Why such a long gap between albums?

(I suppose 1 and 2 apply to P too !)

I think Madonna was cool in the 80s but i never really 'got' the whole 1997 new sound/reinvention thing, to me she changed into a totally different artist.

I remember there used to be a lot of rivalry on here between Prince and MJ fans, especially around the HIStory and Emancipation eras...i guess I feel sorry for them a bit now as we still have our idol (for want of a better word) and they don't..

To me, there's no need to argue, they are both talented people in their own way, but I prefer Prince just as some people prefer one food to another food.

What trends are she chasing?

What 80's sound? How could she stay with an 80's sound?

As she said herself why is that a person has to stop being sexy or sexual once they pass an age (ageism) Yes at 53 she still has it and people love it

what period of time was there long gaps between albums? 2 easily answer that look at what was going on in her life.

She released Sticky Sweet and did the tour the tour was such a hit and sell out that she did Sticky Sweet 2 and continued into the next years time

she got married-divorced, had a child, got married again & had another child.

I don't see how she really could have stayed the same artist she was in the 1980s yet she really is doing the same thing yet on a bigger scale

Exactly.

Between the break from Hard Candy and the upcoming album she also directed a movie. So... that was a thing she wanted to do. there are always been breaks between Madonna her albums.

[Edited 12/5/11 2:15am]

Emancipation89 said:

I thought a lot of MJ fans weren't happy about Invincible, History tour lip sync, the documentary he did and the trial...I really don't think most of MJ fans worship him in a way that all his songs were great, he had no flaws, he was always the victim etc. Not letting the media and tabloids brainwash you is not equal to unreasonably defending the man. And I think after his death he's had a lot of newer younger fans and they(and the public) just like to focus on all the positive things and cultural legacy he left behind but the same goes to Freddie Mercury and Elvis doesn't it.

Some Prince fans love to claim that they only care about music which is bs. I've seen a lot of them complaining about his attitude towards fans-how he shows no respect to them, what ridiculous cult JW is, and so on

[Edited 12/5/11 2:01am]

I agree with a lot of this, and I've been angry about some of it too cause I took it too personal. I worry for the younger fans though and whether they know how to defend him like we do. Some of them like his music but still believe untrue things cause they couldn't be bothered to look it up I'm sure, and that upsets me a lot. I guess I feel bitter and old cause the newbies will never know what it was like being a fan of his before the death and the emotional attachment we formed.

I've seen MJ fans put down JW too though, saying he didn't have sex because of it and stuff like that, or that it "ruined his life" though I think this has to do more with their own views on religion in general than anything else.

Saying Madonna's fans are gay is SO 90's, get over it! I don't mean that in a condescending way cause she did a lot for the gay community then and the messages in her music were empowering, but her audience is not limited at all. Her fanbase was always diverse and still is. From the mid 80's and onwards, I've met people who love her who are straight and gay, mostly straight and of all ages and they appreciate all kinds of music. My mom likes 80's and Ray of Light Madonna, people around my age who liked r&b/hip hop in the 90's loved Bedtime Stories, many people I know that aren't fans of hers have hailed La Isla Bonita and Like a Prayer a classic that they know the words, songs from Confessions were generally enjoyed by everyone and so forth.

[Edited 12/5/11 2:22am]

MattyJam said:

jonylawson said:

Well i may be a dick but how does that above quote qualify me as said apendage?

love MJ all you want- he isnt classed as a musician..by anyone

Whether you choose to classify him as a musician or not, he was and still is internationally recognised for being insanely gifted musically, as a songwriter, a vocalist and an entertainer. Anybody can learn to play a few different instruments to a competant level. Would you call Lenny Kravitz more talented than Michael Jackson just because he can strum a few chords and play the drums?

I wager that the vast majority of people outside of fanboards would say MJ was equally as talented as Prince or moreso.

to be honest i was agreeing with you until the final line....

Well, I've heard Prince come up when MJ has and vice versa for many years....and I think it's usually cause it's from a superficial way of looking at it more than from classifying them based on their showmanship.....80's, black, pop/rock, guyliner. People amuse me.

alphastreet said:

Saying Madonna's fans are gay is SO 90's, get over it! I don't mean that in a condescending way cause she did a lot for the gay community then and the messages in her music were empowering, but her audience is not limited at all. Her fanbase was always diverse and still is. From the mid 80's and onwards, I've met people who love her who are straight and gay, mostly straight and of all ages and they appreciate all kinds of music. My mom likes 80's and Ray of Light Madonna, people around my age who liked r&b/hip hop in the 90's loved Bedtime Stories, many people I know that aren't fans of hers have hailed La Isla Bonita and Like a Prayer a classic that they know the words, songs from Confessions were generally enjoyed by everyone and so forth.

[Edited 12/5/11 2:22am]

True!

Every artist gets the fanbase they deserve. Including Prince.

Prince has a lot of whiny little bitch fans, because he can be a whiny little bitch too. On the other hand he has a lot of cool, intelligent, funny, sophisticated and fine music loving fans too, because so can he be. Prince is twisted himself like that and so is his fanbase. All that crap between 'fams' and 'naysayers' bitching at eachother whenever they can, came out of Prince's kitchen.

MJ and Madonna's fan bases are different because they are different. MJ's fans always worshipped him because he always worshipped them. Madonna's fans are critical about her music too, but less than Prince fans because Madonna herself is less critical about her music than Prince is about his. His standards have always been higher, therefore also his fans always expect more of him. And so on.

[Edited 12/5/11 5:25am]

I hate the word worship, not everyone acts like that. People just love him so much and seeing him get put down, whether by fans or non fans feels like a personal attack for many, that's why you see that protective side coming out at times

I don't think the word worship is an incorrect way to generally describe the way MJ treated most of his fans and what he got in return from them. Millions of total devotees.

I think it's unfair to group all fans into that category then. I like to say I admired him and he was like escapism and fascinating, and a role model for me in many ways, especially during tough times. People like him absolutely had a special purpose in life for inspiring others. And I'm sure MJ knowing he had so many supporters during good times and bad times was a high motivator for him, though I also think there is a possibility it got to a point where he needed validation he is loved to keep going, which led to This Is It.

rlittler81 said:

jonylawson said:

Yes i guess i am.

MJ fans always come acr....well look we all seen them on the TV

no idea what madonna fans are like...usually it seems middle aged and homosexual

tut, tut.

This is absolutely true.
I once had a fan-forum on Madonna, there is questioning about members of the forum: more than 70% of her fans are gay, it's a known fact.

MattyJam said:

jonylawson said:

Well i may be a dick but how does that above quote qualify me as said apendage?

love MJ all you want- he isnt classed as a musician..by anyone

Whether you choose to classify him as a musician or not, he was and still is internationally recognised for being insanely gifted musically, as a songwriter, a vocalist and an entertainer. Anybody can learn to play a few different instruments to a competant level. Would you call Lenny Kravitz more talented than Michael Jackson just because he can strum a few chords and play the drums?

I wager that the vast majority of people outside of fanboards would say MJ was equally as talented as Prince or moreso.

to be honest i was agreeing with you until the final line....

Michael was very talented. His overall talent is huge. Or talent for you is limited only by the ability to play any musical instrument and all? To sing in 11 years in 3-octave voice, do not need a talent? To dance better than any other pop artist does not need a talent? I am not to understand your logic ....

And Michael really has more obsessed fans in a percentage than any other artist, but he suffered the greatest losses among his fans, too. Partly because of the strangeness, partly because of scandals, partly due to the fact that since 1995, did not release a great album, it is a long time, people just got tired of waiting. I know hundreds of "ex-MJ fans", so I would not say that they are very loyal in general. People are different

jonylawson said:

Well no.

MJ and madonna arent really classed as "musicians" whereas P attracts a much more diverse and musically sophisicated demographic.

[img:$uid]http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/767/1281883099699.jpg[/img:$uid]

I agree that every artist gets the fanbase that they deserve

SoulAlive said:

I agree that every artist gets the fanbase that they deserve

And every nation has the leaders, which deserves, too??
Poor Iraqis, Iranians, Somalis, Belarussians, etc. ...

No such generalizing rules.

I've actually heard people say Prince is not original or innovative too....and THAT really shocked me, cause I always felt he was.

There are people with their own lives..............and People without.

TheFreakerFantastic said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

What trends are she chasing?

What 80's sound? How could she stay with an 80's sound?

As she said herself why is that a person has to stop being sexy or sexual once they pass an age (ageism) Yes at 53 she still has it and people love it

what period of time was there long gaps between albums? 2 easily answer that look at what was going on in her life.

She released Sticky Sweet and did the tour the tour was such a hit and sell out that she did Sticky Sweet 2 and continued into the next years time

she got married-divorced, had a child, got married again & had another child.

I don't see how she really could have stayed the same artist she was in the 1980s yet she really is doing the same thing yet on a bigger scale

She has been tracing the silly R&B trend / Timberlake shit, ie. think of '4 minutes'...(P has also been guilty of that recently with damn autotune).

People like Prince and Madonna should be making new trends not copying other trends already out there.

The 80s sound is what made her good IMO, since 97 she hasn't really been 'Madonna' but a different artist as far as I can see, but her fans seem to lap it up....

I don't think people stop being sexy after a certain age.....look at Nigella Lawson or the actress Helen Mirren, she's freakin hot and she's late 60s...

BUT you can be dignified about it and Madonna spreading her legs in leotards and fishnets at 53 is just not sexy but smacks of desperation....

She can still be sexy, but be more subtle about it....(maybe like Prince is now)

It's funny that you accuse Madonna and Prince of chasing R&B trends, wasn't MJ working with or reaching out to work with Akon, Will.I.Am. and Neyo before his death? Don't throw stones in glass houses.

Also any real Madonna fan loves her for the fact that she doesn't do the same thing twice. If she did an 80s album tomorrow I would be dissapointed. I want to see her move forward, she's not the type of act that needs to ride on nostalgia.

Madonna can wear anythign she wants. Her fans love it. why do you care?

Madonna did pay a bit of homage to her early 80's sound on Hard Candy, yet sounded modern.

RKJCNE said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

She has been tracing the silly R&B trend / Timberlake shit, ie. think of '4 minutes'...(P has also been guilty of that recently with damn autotune).

People like Prince and Madonna should be making new trends not copying other trends already out there.

The 80s sound is what made her good IMO, since 97 she hasn't really been 'Madonna' but a different artist as far as I can see, but her fans seem to lap it up....

I don't think people stop being sexy after a certain age.....look at Nigella Lawson or the actress Helen Mirren, she's freakin hot and she's late 60s...

BUT you can be dignified about it and Madonna spreading her legs in leotards and fishnets at 53 is just not sexy but smacks of desperation....

She can still be sexy, but be more subtle about it....(maybe like Prince is now)

It's funny that you accuse Madonna and Prince of chasing R&B trends, wasn't MJ working with or reaching out to work with Akon, Will.I.Am. and Neyo before his death? Don't throw stones in glass houses.

Also any real Madonna fan loves her for the fact that she doesn't do the same thing twice. If she did an 80s album tomorrow I would be dissapointed. I want to see her move forward, she's not the type of act that needs to ride on nostalgia.

Madonna can wear anythign she wants. Her fans love it. why do you care?

I agree!

RKJCNE said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

She has been tracing the silly R&B trend / Timberlake shit, ie. think of '4 minutes'...(P has also been guilty of that recently with damn autotune).

People like Prince and Madonna should be making new trends not copying other trends already out there.

The 80s sound is what made her good IMO, since 97 she hasn't really been 'Madonna' but a different artist as far as I can see, but her fans seem to lap it up....

I don't think people stop being sexy after a certain age.....look at Nigella Lawson or the actress Helen Mirren, she's freakin hot and she's late 60s...

BUT you can be dignified about it and Madonna spreading her legs in leotards and fishnets at 53 is just not sexy but smacks of desperation....

She can still be sexy, but be more subtle about it....(maybe like Prince is now)

It's funny that you accuse Madonna and Prince of chasing R&B trends, wasn't MJ working with or reaching out to work with Akon, Will.I.Am. and Neyo before his death? Don't throw stones in glass houses.

Also any real Madonna fan loves her for the fact that she doesn't do the same thing twice. If she did an 80s album tomorrow I would be dissapointed. I want to see her move forward, she's not the type of act that needs to ride on nostalgia.

Madonna can wear anythign she wants. Her fans love it. why do you care?

Michael didnt base his ENTIRE career off of FOLLOWING TRENDS hun... he INNOVATED TRENDS.. even some Madonna followed HERSELF... Collabing with the artists you mentioned does not = an entire career unlike Madonna.

mjscarousal said:

RKJCNE said:

It's funny that you accuse Madonna and Prince of chasing R&B trends, wasn't MJ working with or reaching out to work with Akon, Will.I.Am. and Neyo before his death? Don't throw stones in glass houses.

Also any real Madonna fan loves her for the fact that she doesn't do the same thing twice. If she did an 80s album tomorrow I would be dissapointed. I want to see her move forward, she's not the type of act that needs to ride on nostalgia.

Madonna can wear anythign she wants. Her fans love it. why do you care?

Michael didnt base his ENTIRE career off of FOLLOWING TRENDS hun... he INNOVATED TRENDS.. even some Madonna followed HERSELF... Collabing with the artists you mentioned does not = an entire career unlike Madonna.

Both Michael and Madonna started trends, the thing is people use Madonna's last album to claim she started following them. It was not her entire career. My point was MJ was headed on that path too. All three artists this thread is on have both set trends, and chased them. People don't seem to understand that ultimately Michael and Madonna are pop artists and when they release music it has to appeal to pop radio, so in the 2008 music landscape both of them latched on to popular acts.

RKJCNE said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

She has been tracing the silly R&B trend / Timberlake shit, ie. think of '4 minutes'...(P has also been guilty of that recently with damn autotune).

People like Prince and Madonna should be making new trends not copying other trends already out there.

The 80s sound is what made her good IMO, since 97 she hasn't really been 'Madonna' but a different artist as far as I can see, but her fans seem to lap it up....

I don't think people stop being sexy after a certain age.....look at Nigella Lawson or the actress Helen Mirren, she's freakin hot and she's late 60s...

BUT you can be dignified about it and Madonna spreading her legs in leotards and fishnets at 53 is just not sexy but smacks of desperation....

She can still be sexy, but be more subtle about it....(maybe like Prince is now)

It's funny that you accuse Madonna and Prince of chasing R&B trends, wasn't MJ working with or reaching out to work with Akon, Will.I.Am. and Neyo before his death? Don't throw stones in glass houses.

Also any real Madonna fan loves her for the fact that she doesn't do the same thing twice. If she did an 80s album tomorrow I would be dissapointed. I want to see her move forward, she's not the type of act that needs to ride on nostalgia.

Madonna can wear anythign she wants. Her fans love it. why do you care?

I'm not throwing stones in glass houses, you are assuming I am a major MJ fan when i am a Prince fan... I respect MJ, but all that collaboration wasn't his choice, it was all done after his death...if he was alive he would never have allowed that to go out... I'm sure he'd be mad about them releasing the This Is It rehearsals too...

(On a side note I think this will be why Prince will release the vault in his lifetime, to stop anyone unscrupulous ruining it and profiting from it. My only concern is I don't want him to butcher it himself (the trauma of Extraloveable is still in my mind)...

I don't know about Madonna, i think its fine if you like all her re-inventions but 80s she was sexy and innovative, now she just seems rather staid and too mainstream in comparison....but that's just my 2 cents.

[Edited 12/5/11 8:09am]

TheFreakerFantastic said:

RKJCNE said:

It's funny that you accuse Madonna and Prince of chasing R&B trends, wasn't MJ working with or reaching out to work with Akon, Will.I.Am. and Neyo before his death? Don't throw stones in glass houses.

Also any real Madonna fan loves her for the fact that she doesn't do the same thing twice. If she did an 80s album tomorrow I would be dissapointed. I want to see her move forward, she's not the type of act that needs to ride on nostalgia.

Madonna can wear anythign she wants. Her fans love it. why do you care?

I'm not throwing stones in glass houses, you are assuming I am a major MJ fan when i am a Prince fan... I respect MJ, but all that collaboration wasn't his choice, it was all done after his death...if he was alive he would never have allowed that to go out... I'm sure he'd be mad about them releasing the This Is It rehearsals too...

(On a side note I think this will be why Prince will release the vault in his lifetime, to stop anyone unscrupulous ruining it and profiting from it. My only concern is I don't want him to butcher it himself (the trauma of Extraloveable is still in my mind)...

I don't know about Madonna, i think its fine if you like all her re-inventions but 80s she was sexy and innovative, now she just seems rather staid and too mainstream in comparison....but that's just my 2 cents.

[Edited 12/5/11 8:09am]

But not all of MJ's collaborations were after his death, before his death I heard constant rumors that he was working with Will.I.Am and Neyo.

mjscarousal said:

RKJCNE said:

It's funny that you accuse Madonna and Prince of chasing R&B trends, wasn't MJ working with or reaching out to work with Akon, Will.I.Am. and Neyo before his death? Don't throw stones in glass houses.

Also any real Madonna fan loves her for the fact that she doesn't do the same thing twice. If she did an 80s album tomorrow I would be dissapointed. I want to see her move forward, she's not the type of act that needs to ride on nostalgia.

Madonna can wear anythign she wants. Her fans love it. why do you care?

Michael didnt base his ENTIRE career off of FOLLOWING TRENDS hun... he INNOVATED TRENDS.. even some Madonna followed HERSELF... Collabing with the artists you mentioned does not = an entire career unlike Madonna.

I'm a little confused you guys.

I thought the whole purpose of being a popular music artist was about chasing trends in some sort of fashion. If you don't, how will your music sell? Things are constantly changing and moving forwards, so if you don't how would one intend to make it in such an industry?

That is unless you are targeting a niche market, then yeah...you can do what you want then, but I still think it has to adhere to the genre no?

RKJCNE said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

I'm not throwing stones in glass houses, you are assuming I am a major MJ fan when i am a Prince fan... I respect MJ, but all that collaboration wasn't his choice, it was all done after his death...if he was alive he would never have allowed that to go out... I'm sure he'd be mad about them releasing the This Is It rehearsals too...

(On a side note I think this will be why Prince will release the vault in his lifetime, to stop anyone unscrupulous ruining it and profiting from it. My only concern is I don't want him to butcher it himself (the trauma of Extraloveable is still in my mind)...

I don't know about Madonna, i think its fine if you like all her re-inventions but 80s she was sexy and innovative, now she just seems rather staid and too mainstream in comparison....but that's just my 2 cents.

[Edited 12/5/11 8:09am]

But not all of MJ's collaborations were after his death, before his death I heard constant rumors that he was working with Will.I.Am and Neyo.

Ah, but would he have released them?

Why were those released instead of the many outtakes he still has from the classic albums?

LiLi1992 said:

SoulAlive said:

I agree that every artist gets the fanbase that they deserve

And every nation has the leaders, which deserves, too??
Poor Iraqis, Iranians, Somalis, Belarussians, etc. ...

No such generalizing rules.

Apples and oranges. Artists have nothing in common with politicians except they are both public figures. Both are fruit but not the same at all. And they aren't "leaders" either, altho' some of the great ones and their fans do sometimes suffer from that illusion...

Tremolina said:

LiLi1992 said:

And every nation has the leaders, which deserves, too??
Poor Iraqis, Iranians, Somalis, Belarussians, etc. ...

No such generalizing rules.

Apples and oranges. Artists have nothing in common with politicians except they are both public figures. Both are fruit but not the same at all. And they aren't "leaders" either, altho' some of the great ones and their fans do sometimes suffer from that illusion...

I did not write that it is parallel.
Just another example of generalization

LiLi1992 said:

Tremolina said:

Apples and oranges. Artists have nothing in common with politicians except they are both public figures. Both are fruit but not the same at all. And they aren't "leaders" either, altho' some of the great ones and their fans do sometimes suffer from that illusion...

I did not write that it is parallel.
Just another example of generalization

You don't have to write that. You compared artists to leaders of undemocratic countries. Which is nonsense of course.

Tremolina said:

LiLi1992 said:

I did not write that it is parallel.
Just another example of generalization

You don't have to write that. You compared artists to leaders of undemocratic countries. Which is nonsense of course.

Really?

It was no comparison, it was generalization

And every nation has the leaders, which deserves, too??
Poor Iraqis, Iranians, Somalis, Belarussians, etc. ...

No such generalizing rules.

Although maybe very popular artists have something in common with politicians.
For example Gaga and her monsters - a whole ideology in a simplified form. Mama Monster and the lil monsters .... and the rest of this nonsense.