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Thread started 08/15/11 9:38am

kindofblue7

GREAT article in NY TIMES re: getting masters back.

Hopefully PRINCE and his lawyers/advisers are reading this.


August 15, 2011

Record Industry Braces for Artists’ Battles Over Song Rights

Since their release in 1978, hit albums like Bruce Springsteen’s “Darkness on the Edge of Town,” Billy Joel’s “52nd Street,” the Doobie Brothers’ “Minute by Minute,” Kenny Rogers’s “Gambler” and Funkadelic’s “One Nation Under a Groove” have generated tens of millions of dollars for record companies. But thanks to a little-noted provision in United States copyright law, those artists — and thousands more — now have the right to reclaim ownership of their recordings, potentially leaving the labels out in the cold.

When copyright law was revised in the mid-1970s, musicians, like creators of other works of art, were granted “termination rights,” which allow them to regain control of their work after 35 years, so long as they apply at least two years in advance. Recordings from 1978 are the first to fall under the purview of the law, but in a matter of months, hits from 1979, like “The Long Run” by the Eagles and “Bad Girls” by Donna Summer, will be in the same situation — and then, as the calendar advances, every other master recording once it reaches the 35-year mark.

The provision also permits songwriters to reclaim ownership of qualifying songs. Bob Dylan has already filed to regain some of his compositions, as have other rock, pop and country performers like Tom Petty, Bryan Adams, Loretta Lynn, Kris Kristofferson, Tom Waits and Charlie Daniels, according to records on file at the United States Copyright Office.

“In terms of all those big acts you name, the recording industry has made a gazillion dollars on those masters, more than the artists have,” said Don Henley, a founder both of the Eagles and the Recording Artists Coalition, which seeks to protect performers’ legal rights. “So there’s an issue of parity here, of fairness. This is a bone of contention, and it’s going to get more contentious in the next couple of years.”

With the recording industry already reeling from plummeting sales, termination rights claims could be another serious financial blow. Sales plunged to about $6.3 billion from $14.6 billion over the decade ending in 2009, in large part because of unauthorized downloading of music on the Internet, especially of new releases, which has left record labels disproportionately dependent on sales of older recordings in their catalogs.

“This is a life-threatening change for them, the legal equivalent of Internet technology,” said Kenneth J. Abdo, a lawyer who leads a termination rights working group for the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences and has filed claims for some of his clients, who include Kool and the Gang. As a result the four major record companies — Universal, Sony BMG, EMI and Warner — have made it clear that they will not relinquish recordings they consider their property without a fight.

“We believe the termination right doesn’t apply to most sound recordings,” said Steven Marks, general counsel for the Recording Industry Association of America, a lobbying group in Washington that represents the interests of record labels. As the record companies see it, the master recordings belong to them in perpetuity, rather than to the artists who wrote and recorded the songs, because, the labels argue, the records are “works for hire,” compilations created not by independent performers but by musicians who are, in essence, their employees.

Independent copyright experts, however, find that argument unconvincing. Not only have recording artists traditionally paid for the making of their records themselves, with advances from the record companies that are then charged against royalties, they are also exempted from both the obligations and benefits an employee typically expects.

“This is a situation where you have to use your own common sense,” said June M. Besek, executive director of the Kernochan Center for Law, Media and the Arts at the Columbia University School of Law. “Where do they work? Do you pay Social Security for them? Do you withdraw taxes from a paycheck? Under those kinds of definitions it seems pretty clear that your standard kind of recording artist from the ’70s or ’80s is not an employee but an independent contractor.”

Daryl Friedman, the Washington representative of the recording academy, which administers the Grammy Awards and is allied with the artists’ position, expressed hope that negotiations could lead to a “broad consensus in the artistic community, so there don’t have to be 100 lawsuits.” But with no such talks under way, lawyers predict that the termination rights dispute will have to be resolved in court.

“My gut feeling is that the issue could even make it to the Supreme Court,” said Lita Rosario, an entertainment lawyer specializing in soul, funk and rap artists who has filed termination claims on behalf of clients, whom she declined to name. “Some lawyers and managers see this as an opportunity to go in and renegotiate a new and better deal. But I think there are going to be some artists who feel so strongly about this that they are not going to want to settle, and will insist on getting all their rights back.”

So far the only significant ruling on the issue has been one in the record labels’ favor. In that suit heirs of Jamaican reggae star Bob Marley, who died in 1981, sued Universal Music to regain control of and collect additional royalties on five of his albums, which included hits like “Get Up, Stand Up” and “One Love.”

But last September a federal district court in New York ruled that “each of the agreements provided that the sound recordings were the ‘absolute property’ ” of the record company, and not Marley or his estate. That decision, however, applies only to Marley’s pre-1978 recordings, which are governed by an earlier law that envisaged termination rights only in specific circumstances after 56 years, and it is being appealed.

Congress passed the copyright law in 1976, specifying that it would go into effect on Jan. 1, 1978, meaning that the earliest any recording can be reclaimed is Jan. 1, 2013. But artists must file termination notices at least two years before the date they want to recoup their work, and once a song or recording qualifies for termination, its authors have five years in which to file a claim; if they fail to act in that time, their right to reclaim the work lapses.

The legislation, however, fails to address several important issues. Do record producers, session musicians and studio engineers also qualify as “authors” of a recording, entitled to a share of the rights after they revert? Can British groups like Led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, and Dire Straits exercise termination rights on their American recordings, even if their original contract was signed in Britain? These issues too are also an important part of the quiet, behind-the-scenes struggle that is now going on.

Given the potentially huge amounts of money at stake and the delicacy of the issues, both record companies, and recording artists and their managers have been reticent in talking about termination rights. The four major record companies either declined to discuss the issue or did not respond to requests for comment, referring the matter to the industry association.

But a recording industry executive involved in the issue, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak for the labels, said that significant differences of opinion exist not only between the majors and smaller independent companies, but also among the big four, which has prevented them from taking a unified position. Some of the major labels, he said, favor a court battle, no matter how long or costly it might be, while others worry that taking an unyielding position could backfire if the case is lost, since musicians and songwriters would be so deeply alienated that they would refuse to negotiate new deals and insist on total control of all their recordings.

As for artists it is not clear how many have already filed claims to regain ownership of their recordings. Both Mr. Springsteen and Mr. Joel, who had two of the biggest hit albums of 1978, as well as their managers and legal advisers, declined to comment on their plans, and the United States Copyright Office said that, because termination rights claims are initially processed manually rather than electronically, its database is incomplete.

Songwriters, who in the past typically have had to share their rights with publishing companies, some of which are owned by or affiliated with record labels, have been more outspoken on the issue. As small independent operators to whom the work for hire argument is hard to apply, the balance of power seems to have tilted in their favor, especially if they are authors of songs that still have licensing potential for use on film and television soundtracks, as ringtones, or in commercials and video games.

“I’ve had the date circled in red for 35 years, and now it’s time to move,” said Rick Carnes, who is president of the Songwriters Guild of America and has written hits for country artists like Reba McEntire and Garth Brooks. “Year after year after year you are going to see more and more songs coming back to songwriters and having more and more influence on the market. We will own that music, and it’s still valuable.”

In the absence of a definitive court ruling, some recording artists and their lawyers are talking about simply exercising their rights and daring the record companies to stop them. They complain that the labels in some cases are not responding to termination rights notices and predict that once 2013 arrives, a conflict that is now mostly hidden from view is likely to erupt in public.

“Right now this is kind of like a game of chicken, but with a shot clock,” said Casey Rae-Hunter, deputy director of the Future of Music Coalition, which advocates for musicians and consumers. “Everyone is adopting a wait-and-see posture. But that can only be maintained for so long, because the clock is ticking.”

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Reply #1 posted 08/15/11 9:45am

Rhyging

Bookmarked for a later read.

Thanks for posting.

[Edited 8/15/11 9:45am]

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Reply #2 posted 08/15/11 9:57am

djThunderfunk

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Works for hire?!?

What utter bullshit!

It's not like a comic book company. Sure, if Marvel hires Artist X to draw Spider-Man for a year, that artist doesn't own the work. He was hire to draw an existing character in an existing universe.

If a movie studio buys the rights to a book for a movie and hires Famous Director to rewrite and direct it, the director does not own it.

But music? For a real artist like Prince and those mentioned, they come in with a blank slate and create from nothing. WB didn't concieve of 1999 and then hire Prince to go make it... Prince came up with it on his own. They financed it and as a result get 35 years of profitting from it. When it's over it's over... greedy bastards!

No wonder the industry is in such sad shape, it's built on lying, cheating, stealing, etc...

Not dead, not in prison, still funkin'...
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Reply #3 posted 08/15/11 10:28am

eyewishuheaven

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That was a good read, thank you.

It figures the labels would be trying to change the game. I don't even see how they could have an argument, here. The Law is The Law, ain't it?

They are so fucked. They'd be better off just folding up shop now before they completely lose their shirts. Labels are no longer necessary. All artists need now is talent, the ability to entertain in a live setting, and the energy to reach out to their fans via the internet.

Wish I was 20 right now, instead of 40... lol

PRINCE: the only man who could wear high heels and makeup and STILL steal your woman!
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Reply #4 posted 08/15/11 10:34am

TheFreakerFant
astic

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That 35 yr rule is fair enough really for the record companies - they have had the chance to make loads of £££ off the work so after that period only fair the rights revert to the artist!

[Edited 8/15/11 10:35am]

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Reply #5 posted 08/15/11 10:51am

fms

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No mention of Prince when his struggle with this same issue was so public? Hmmm...

Nice to know, though. Thanks for the share.

Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths...(Jeremiah 6:16) www.ancientfaithradio.com

dezinonac eb lliw noitulove ehT
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Reply #6 posted 08/15/11 1:51pm

rialb

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To us it seems pretty clear that the artists will win this battle but it is never a good idea to underestimate lawyers and their ability to make something simple complicated beyond understanding. Of course I am on the side of the creators but I would not be surprised if the labels somehow found a way to circumvent the law and maintain control of those masters in perpetuity.

I just hope that all of the creators are fully aware of the possibility of regaining control of their music and do not miss out on the opportunity due to the five year rule.

Also, does anyone know if the labels have taken steps to alter new contracts in such a way to get around this law? Is a new artist starting out today guaranteed to get their masters back after 35 years or have the labels found a way to hold on to them?

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Reply #7 posted 08/15/11 1:53pm

Timmy84

^ Yeah I believe anything released nowadays is under that 1978 law. We already know the artists are getting the masters back. Sure labels will fight because they're greedy like that but I can't see them winning.

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Reply #8 posted 08/15/11 2:17pm

uuhson

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can someone give me a tl;dr here

Bogey and Bacall, peanut butter and jelly, Wall being on fucking point, is "classic" dipshit. An iphone is top shelf technology. Get it straight. This thing is 4g. -Wall the great
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Reply #9 posted 08/15/11 2:18pm

Dauphin

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It's unfortunate how the Artists were sucking RIAA pen0r during the Fire Sharing debacles, but are BOHICA in this matter.

And the similarities to the Comic world are valid. Neil Gaiman had a lawsuit recently with Todd McFarlane, Jack Kirby's estate had one recently, and so have the original creators of Superman. Superman may be allowed to be published in a Marvel comic, for example!

I was reading Jim Shooter's blog last week and he tells of times where he gave unusual rights to property to some writers in order to woo them away from DC and allow them the freedom to write the story their way and preserve continuity.

But think about this situation:

Executive A recently signed Stevie Nicks. He hires Kenny Loggins to write a song for her to sing. Jack White produces with his hand picked engineers, and he plays with Meg White and Les Claypool.

Who is the creator of the song here???

And who owns rights to videos? In a way, they can almost be considered seperate pieces of art. Many times, it isn't the artist that commisions the video, but the record company.

It's a sticky situation. And a situation that has frequently benefited the large studios. Look at how long Mickey Mouse has stayed out of the pubic domain.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Still it's nice to know, when our bodies wear out, we can get another

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Reply #10 posted 08/15/11 2:20pm

NouveauDance

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Good read, thanks.

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Reply #11 posted 08/15/11 2:38pm

Dauphin

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uuhson said:

can someone give me a tl;dr here

- After 35 years, the master recordings of songs belong to the original owners.

- Starting next year, songs from 1979 will start reverting back. (1979 is significant because of legislation that passed in 1978)

- Record companies say THEY are the original owners, as bands are hired help. Anything an artist does while signed is "work for hire"

- Artists are all butthurt, or are preparing to be

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Still it's nice to know, when our bodies wear out, we can get another

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Reply #12 posted 08/15/11 4:27pm

sambluedolphin

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Dats good 4 Prince he will, his most early albums will mature. The songs he now at present release are protected.

He will have totally ownership, mabe release the albums, or remaster them. But all profits go him.

OPrince was struggling 4 control in mid 90's, it will be great 4 him dat he doesnt have 2 go through it again. Prince is most deserving and definely eligble 2 get his masters back, since he did everything, composed, performed, produced, etc.

Sam 8)

Prince 2010 Good Luck for Future & Tour
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Reply #13 posted 08/15/11 5:01pm

Timmy84

^ I think Prince is against re-releases for some reason...

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Reply #14 posted 08/15/11 6:04pm

lastdecember

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Timmy84 said:

^ I think Prince is against re-releases for some reason...

theres alot of sketchy things with Prince as far as getting music rights back, i think even he gets things back dont expect re-issues of anything.


"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #15 posted 08/15/11 6:26pm

Harlepolis

Didn't Prince obtain the masters for For You, Prince and Dirty Mind already? I think I heard that from the Peach & Black Podcast, and that its a matter of years till he get the rest.

Yeah, its a mixed blessing for a fan. On hand, I'm worried about this because of Prince' history of long lists of projects that were left for his personal use only. On the other hand, his prophecy will materialize and the fruits of his hard work for the past 16 years will be paid off after everybody from Russell Simmons to Clive Davis said he lost his mind.

I guess time will tell what will happen as far as remastered editions are concerned.

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Reply #16 posted 08/15/11 6:36pm

Dauphin

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I believe he's been allowed to claim his intent to transfer the albums to himself. Artists have a two year time frame where they can do that.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Still it's nice to know, when our bodies wear out, we can get another

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Reply #17 posted 08/15/11 9:48pm

KCOOLMUZIQ

Harlepolis said:

Didn't Prince obtain the masters for For You, Prince and Dirty Mind already? I think I heard that from the Peach & Black Podcast, and that its a matter of years till he get the rest.

Yeah, its a mixed blessing for a fan. On hand, I'm worried about this because of Prince' history of long lists of projects that were left for his personal use only. On the other hand, his prophecy will materialize and the fruits of his hard work for the past 16 years will be paid off after everybody from Russell Simmons to Clive Davis said he lost his mind.

I guess time will tell what will happen as far as remastered editions are concerned.

Yes! Prince has already started getting his masters back. He should have "Controversy" now to.........

eye will ALWAYS think of prince like a "ACT OF GOD"! N another realm. eye mean of all people who might of been aliens or angels.if found out that prince wasn't of this earth, eye would not have been that surprised. R.I.P. prince
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Reply #18 posted 08/16/11 6:33am

Dauphin

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But last September a federal district court in New York ruled that “each of the agreements provided that the sound recordings were the ‘absolute property’ ” of the record company, and not Marley or his estate. That decision, however, applies only to Marley’s pre-1978 recordings, which are governed by an earlier law that envisaged termination rights only in specific circumstances after 56 years, and it is being appealed.

Congress passed the copyright law in 1976, specifying that it would go into effect on Jan. 1, 1978, meaning that the earliest any recording can be reclaimed is Jan. 1, 2013. But artists must file termination notices at least two years before the date they want to recoup their work, and once a song or recording qualifies for termination, its authors have five years in which to file a claim; if they fail to act in that time, their right to reclaim the work lapses.

pertinent info!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Still it's nice to know, when our bodies wear out, we can get another

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Reply #19 posted 08/16/11 8:11am

AlexdeParis

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Copyright law has been grossly perverted from an agreement to benefit the public and artists to a means for someone (usually corporations) to get and stay rich. Those 1978 songs should already be in the public domain.

Edited because of a stupid spelling mistake

[Edited 8/16/11 11:46am]

"Whitney was purely and simply one of a kind." ~ Clive Davis
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Reply #20 posted 08/16/11 11:41am

FunkiestOne

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Harlepolis said:

Didn't Prince obtain the masters for For You, Prince and Dirty Mind already? I think I heard that from the Peach & Black Podcast, and that its a matter of years till he get the rest.

Yeah, its a mixed blessing for a fan. On hand, I'm worried about this because of Prince' history of long lists of projects that were left for his personal use only. On the other hand, his prophecy will materialize and the fruits of his hard work for the past 16 years will be paid off after everybody from Russell Simmons to Clive Davis said he lost his mind.

I guess time will tell what will happen as far as remastered editions are concerned.

There is a different between the physical master tapes and the rights to such songs/material.

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Reply #21 posted 08/16/11 12:17pm

lastdecember

avatar

AlexdeParis said:

Copyright law has been grossly perverted from an agreement to benefit the public and artists to a means for someone (usually corporations) to get and stay rich. Those 1978 songs should already be in the public domain.



Edited because of a stupid spelling mistake

[Edited 8/16/11 11:46am]


I could never buy into the whole public domain logic because to me why should Joe schmo just be allowed to take something he didn't write or record and now claim it to be his creation just because a certain amount of years has passed, to me this will just lead to even more lazy artists just covering and lifting music tracks and not paying a cent and then getting paid for it like they did anything.

"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #22 posted 08/16/11 2:20pm

Harlepolis

FunkiestOne said:

Harlepolis said:

Didn't Prince obtain the masters for For You, Prince and Dirty Mind already? I think I heard that from the Peach & Black Podcast, and that its a matter of years till he get the rest.

Yeah, its a mixed blessing for a fan. On hand, I'm worried about this because of Prince' history of long lists of projects that were left for his personal use only. On the other hand, his prophecy will materialize and the fruits of his hard work for the past 16 years will be paid off after everybody from Russell Simmons to Clive Davis said he lost his mind.

I guess time will tell what will happen as far as remastered editions are concerned.

There is a different between the physical master tapes and the rights to such songs/material.

I know biggrin

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Reply #23 posted 08/16/11 2:31pm

AlexdeParis

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lastdecember said:

AlexdeParis said:

Copyright law has been grossly perverted from an agreement to benefit the public and artists to a means for someone (usually corporations) to get and stay rich. Those 1978 songs should already be in the public domain.

Edited because of a stupid spelling mistake

[Edited 8/16/11 11:46am]

I could never buy into the whole public domain logic because to me why should Joe schmo just be allowed to take something he didn't write or record and now claim it to be his creation just because a certain amount of years has passed, to me this will just lead to even more lazy artists just covering and lifting music tracks and not paying a cent and then getting paid for it like they did anything.

Copyright and the public domain operate under the same logic parents rightfully teach older siblings all the time: you can't stop someone from copying your idea. That's unrealistic. So the system allows artists to profit upon their ideas for a limited amount of time in order to encourage them to enrich all our lives with their art. You have it backwards. Allowing artists, their children, and their grandchildren to profit indefinitely on an ethereal idea causes stagnation and resting on your laurels. Intellectual property will always be an oxymoron, because it's not property at all. We're just supposed to pretend it is.

Disney built a goliath of a media company off the back of the public domain, but it's been the major force behind stifling that same resource for years. Why should Disney still be making money off of "Steamboat Willie"? How many people still there had anything to do with it?

Besides, it's not about Joe Schmo taking other people's creations and passing it off as his own. Snow White? Pinocchio? Sleeping Beauty? Walt found a way to take other people's ideas and make something fresh out of them. Other people will too. In fact, they do all the time. And they shouldn't have to pay boatloads of cash to the estates of long-dead creators to do so.

"Whitney was purely and simply one of a kind." ~ Clive Davis
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Reply #24 posted 08/16/11 3:16pm

lastdecember

avatar

AlexdeParis said:

lastdecember said:

AlexdeParis said: I could never buy into the whole public domain logic because to me why should Joe schmo just be allowed to take something he didn't write or record and now claim it to be his creation just because a certain amount of years has passed, to me this will just lead to even more lazy artists just covering and lifting music tracks and not paying a cent and then getting paid for it like they did anything.

Copyright and the public domain operate under the same logic parents rightfully teach older siblings all the time: you can't stop someone from copying your idea. That's unrealistic. So the system allows artists to profit upon their ideas for a limited amount of time in order to encourage them to enrich all our lives with their art. You have it backwards. Allowing artists, their children, and their grandchildren to profit indefinitely on an ethereal idea causes stagnation and resting on your laurels. Intellectual property will always be an oxymoron, because it's not property at all. We're just supposed to pretend it is.

Disney built a goliath of a media company off the back of the public domain, but it's been the major force behind stifling that same resource for years. Why should Disney still be making money off of "Steamboat Willie"? How many people still there had anything to do with it?

Besides, it's not about Joe Schmo taking other people's creations and passing it off as his own. Snow White? Pinocchio? Sleeping Beauty? Walt found a way to take other people's ideas and make something fresh out of them. Other people will too. In fact, they do all the time. And they shouldn't have to pay boatloads of cash to the estates of long-dead creators to do so.

That goes both ways though, i get the point of it but there are people that take advantage of it, theres a huge difference in a nursery rhyme or story being passed along to kids and their kids. I mean say ten years from now a-ha's "take on me" goes into "public domain" (though it wont, just an example) should another band be able to use that riff, that lyric, without paying someone that actually did the work? I know what your saying but theres a huge difference in Disney and their stuff than artists and musicians where about 2% are actually "wealthy" and still earning off their work. Public domain is a cool thing for a quote from a book or a picture of the manhattan skyline being able to use that for free, but simply using others music and writings to load your bank account just because some time has passed or the artist has passed, doesnt quite work for me, and im sure alot of artists either. NOW to me if they actually want it in Public Domain, thats cool, but for it just to fall into the "public" because of time is wrong, what if an artist dies and puts it in his will he wants in public domain but all money made from it goes to certain charities, would that be wrong?


"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #25 posted 08/16/11 3:38pm

AlexdeParis

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lastdecember said:

AlexdeParis said:

Copyright and the public domain operate under the same logic parents rightfully teach older siblings all the time: you can't stop someone from copying your idea. That's unrealistic. So the system allows artists to profit upon their ideas for a limited amount of time in order to encourage them to enrich all our lives with their art. You have it backwards. Allowing artists, their children, and their grandchildren to profit indefinitely on an ethereal idea causes stagnation and resting on your laurels. Intellectual property will always be an oxymoron, because it's not property at all. We're just supposed to pretend it is.

Disney built a goliath of a media company off the back of the public domain, but it's been the major force behind stifling that same resource for years. Why should Disney still be making money off of "Steamboat Willie"? How many people still there had anything to do with it?

Besides, it's not about Joe Schmo taking other people's creations and passing it off as his own. Snow White? Pinocchio? Sleeping Beauty? Walt found a way to take other people's ideas and make something fresh out of them. Other people will too. In fact, they do all the time. And they shouldn't have to pay boatloads of cash to the estates of long-dead creators to do so.

That goes both ways though, i get the point of it but there are people that take advantage of it, theres a huge difference in a nursery rhyme or story being passed along to kids and their kids. I mean say ten years from now a-ha's "take on me" goes into "public domain" (though it wont, just an example) should another band be able to use that riff, that lyric, without paying someone that actually did the work? I know what your saying but theres a huge difference in Disney and their stuff than artists and musicians where about 2% are actually "wealthy" and still earning off their work. Public domain is a cool thing for a quote from a book or a picture of the manhattan skyline being able to use that for free, but simply using others music and writings to load your bank account just because some time has passed or the artist has passed, doesnt quite work for me, and im sure alot of artists either. NOW to me if they actually want it in Public Domain, thats cool, but for it just to fall into the "public" because of time is wrong, what if an artist dies and puts it in his will he wants in public domain but all money made from it goes to certain charities, would that be wrong?

It's an idea. It will never be property. Anyone who wants to borrow any part of "Take on Me" can at any time. The time limit was an original concession. Now millions upon millions are spent to protect these rights until the end of time. The whole thing is silly. George Michael vamps "you can't always get what you want" at the end of "Waiting for That Day" ... a lawsuit later, it's now "Waiting for That Day/You Can't Always Get What You Want" and the Rolling Stones have a writing credit! You can't sing "Happy Birthday" without permission because someone owns the rights. Well you know what? People are still singing it all the time! Because policing that is stupid and nigh impossible. AFAIC, undying corporations shouldn't be able to "own" songs and artists shouldn't be able to pass on the rights of songs to anyone else. But it's too late to change any of that at this point. shrug

And no, I'm not paying anybody for posting that. lol

"Whitney was purely and simply one of a kind." ~ Clive Davis
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Reply #26 posted 08/16/11 3:56pm

lastdecember

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AlexdeParis said:

lastdecember said:

That goes both ways though, i get the point of it but there are people that take advantage of it, theres a huge difference in a nursery rhyme or story being passed along to kids and their kids. I mean say ten years from now a-ha's "take on me" goes into "public domain" (though it wont, just an example) should another band be able to use that riff, that lyric, without paying someone that actually did the work? I know what your saying but theres a huge difference in Disney and their stuff than artists and musicians where about 2% are actually "wealthy" and still earning off their work. Public domain is a cool thing for a quote from a book or a picture of the manhattan skyline being able to use that for free, but simply using others music and writings to load your bank account just because some time has passed or the artist has passed, doesnt quite work for me, and im sure alot of artists either. NOW to me if they actually want it in Public Domain, thats cool, but for it just to fall into the "public" because of time is wrong, what if an artist dies and puts it in his will he wants in public domain but all money made from it goes to certain charities, would that be wrong?

It's an idea. It will never be property. Anyone who wants to borrow any part of "Take on Me" can at any time. The time limit was an original concession. Now millions upon millions are spent to protect these rights until the end of time. The whole thing is silly. George Michael vamps "you can't always get what you want" at the end of "Waiting for That Day" ... a lawsuit later, it's now "Waiting for That Day/You Can't Always Get What You Want" and the Rolling Stones have a writing credit! You can't sing "Happy Birthday" without permission because someone owns the rights. Well you know what? People are still singing it all the time! Because policing that is stupid and nigh impossible. AFAIC, undying corporations shouldn't be able to "own" songs and artists shouldn't be able to pass on the rights of songs to anyone else. But it's too late to change any of that at this point. shrug

And no, I'm not paying anybody for posting that. lol

Well with George Michael it was paying homage, but still in style of the way it was originally done. I mean someone can go to a karoake bar and sing "your song" by Elton John and Bernie Taupin, and no one cares, but should that person be able to sell their version of it 50 years from now? On that right i cannot see it being "right", to me the person that legally owns it, its their property, not that i think a company should be holding rights to what someone created in any respect, but that is the way the system was set up and remains because no one has had the balls to change it. No one has taken a hit to their bank account in place of their "rights"


"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #27 posted 08/16/11 4:27pm

rialb

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lastdecember said:

AlexdeParis said:

It's an idea. It will never be property. Anyone who wants to borrow any part of "Take on Me" can at any time. The time limit was an original concession. Now millions upon millions are spent to protect these rights until the end of time. The whole thing is silly. George Michael vamps "you can't always get what you want" at the end of "Waiting for That Day" ... a lawsuit later, it's now "Waiting for That Day/You Can't Always Get What You Want" and the Rolling Stones have a writing credit! You can't sing "Happy Birthday" without permission because someone owns the rights. Well you know what? People are still singing it all the time! Because policing that is stupid and nigh impossible. AFAIC, undying corporations shouldn't be able to "own" songs and artists shouldn't be able to pass on the rights of songs to anyone else. But it's too late to change any of that at this point. shrug

And no, I'm not paying anybody for posting that. lol

Well with George Michael it was paying homage, but still in style of the way it was originally done. I mean someone can go to a karoake bar and sing "your song" by Elton John and Bernie Taupin, and no one cares, but should that person be able to sell their version of it 50 years from now? On that right i cannot see it being "right", to me the person that legally owns it, its their property, not that i think a company should be holding rights to what someone created in any respect, but that is the way the system was set up and remains because no one has had the balls to change it. No one has taken a hit to their bank account in place of their "rights"

If I can chime in here just because someone covers or samples/uses elements from "Take on Me" or "Your Song" does not mean that they will end up making money from it. I think that as long as a proper amount of time has lapsed then all intellectual property should go into the public domain. How much time? I would say a fair bit, maybe 50-75 years? I do think that the original creator should continue to be identified as the creator but should the family or, more likely, a corporation that had nothing to do with creating the work profit from it in perpetuity? No, I do not believe so.

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Reply #28 posted 08/16/11 4:29pm

AlexdeParis

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lastdecember said:

AlexdeParis said:

It's an idea. It will never be property. Anyone who wants to borrow any part of "Take on Me" can at any time. The time limit was an original concession. Now millions upon millions are spent to protect these rights until the end of time. The whole thing is silly. George Michael vamps "you can't always get what you want" at the end of "Waiting for That Day" ... a lawsuit later, it's now "Waiting for That Day/You Can't Always Get What You Want" and the Rolling Stones have a writing credit! You can't sing "Happy Birthday" without permission because someone owns the rights. Well you know what? People are still singing it all the time! Because policing that is stupid and nigh impossible. AFAIC, undying corporations shouldn't be able to "own" songs and artists shouldn't be able to pass on the rights of songs to anyone else. But it's too late to change any of that at this point. shrug

And no, I'm not paying anybody for posting that. lol

Well with George Michael it was paying homage, but still in style of the way it was originally done. I mean someone can go to a karoake bar and sing "your song" by Elton John and Bernie Taupin, and no one cares, but should that person be able to sell their version of it 50 years from now? On that right i cannot see it being "right", to me the person that legally owns it, its their property, not that i think a company should be holding rights to what someone created in any respect, but that is the way the system was set up and remains because no one has had the balls to change it. No one has taken a hit to their bank account in place of their "rights"

Well, I would argue that the system wasn't originially set up like that, but it's since been perverted by lobbyists and greed, which I guess was inevitable. But I think we just disagree fundamentally. Should an artist be able to use older works in their creative process and profit from it (for a reasonable amount of time)? Hell yeah! Sounds like art to me. DNA took a throwaway song by Suzanne Vega and turned it into a smash, just to name one example. Stifling an artist's ability to use what came before to make something new is not in the best interests of the public or art in general IMO.

"Whitney was purely and simply one of a kind." ~ Clive Davis
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Reply #29 posted 08/16/11 4:36pm

lastdecember

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rialb said:

lastdecember said:

Well with George Michael it was paying homage, but still in style of the way it was originally done. I mean someone can go to a karoake bar and sing "your song" by Elton John and Bernie Taupin, and no one cares, but should that person be able to sell their version of it 50 years from now? On that right i cannot see it being "right", to me the person that legally owns it, its their property, not that i think a company should be holding rights to what someone created in any respect, but that is the way the system was set up and remains because no one has had the balls to change it. No one has taken a hit to their bank account in place of their "rights"

If I can chime in here just because someone covers or samples/uses elements from "Take on Me" or "Your Song" does not mean that they will end up making money from it. I think that as long as a proper amount of time has lapsed then all intellectual property should go into the public domain. How much time? I would say a fair bit, maybe 50-75 years? I do think that the original creator should continue to be identified as the creator but should the family or, more likely, a corporation that had nothing to do with creating the work profit from it in perpetuity? No, I do not believe so.

Well the thing is the artist/owner has the "right" to pass along the "rights" if i own a house and die and want it to go to my wife instead of the state of NYC that goes in my will, why should i not be allowed that right? why should anyone feel they can take the house now because im dead or its been long enough.

In the case of music again i feel its the artists right if they own it, if they want it to go to the homeless guy on the corner than they have that right if they own it. NOW i agree that family shouldnt just feel its their stuff now that so and so is dead, which OFTEN happens, Michael Hutchence of INXS fame, his family raided his estate when he died, all except his dad, everyone else got SUE happy, and even sued the band, which basically the reason Michael had money for them to steal in the first place.Now with that said, in his will things were passed to his daughter, and call me crazy, if he feels that SHE should have the right to sell "need you tonight" in 25 years as form of money that he wanted to leave her, why not? Why should the public get that right if the artist didnt want it.


"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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