theAudience said:

Well ain't that why Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder, two men with an obvious disability, were basically laughing their ways to the bank? They KNEW better. Other artists weren't too sure lol

and:



Please tell me in what universe those quotes are defending Goldstein? I'm the one who started the thread that shows the attorney explaining how guys like Goldstein rip artists off, including my favorite band, WAR. I'm not blaming any victims, I'm sticking up for Sly even though he may not have acted in his own best interest. I pointed out several times that even sober people often don't read their contracts.

It seems like it's always more important to you to look for a reason to pounce than to understand what is being said and I hope you will not continue to disrupt the thread with misinterpretations and hostility.

Timmy84 said:

My guess is that those 2 in particular are hyper-sensitive about being taken advantage of in general.
It would probably very hard to run the okie-doke on either one.


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babynoz said:

-----
"I really don't understand why you see it as your duty to bring venom and vitriol to every discussion, not to mention that you're just plain wrong for mis-representing what I said. If you didn't get what I said you could simply ask me to clarify... "

Nothing I asked you or responded to was filled venom or vitriol. You need to get a much thicker skin if anytime you are asked a question your going to freak the fuck out. You typed the following comments and I responded to them. I did not think the following comments showed any sympathy for Sly but perhaps I misinterperted what you were trying to say. You typed the following.
----

As I was saying, I get plenty of perfectly sober people every day who won't even read their court summons, much less the contract they signed. They all seem to think that "I didn't know" is a legitimate defense,

In Sly's case, ain't no judge tryin' to hear, "I was high your honor". Unless his attorney can prove that Goldstein personally drugged him, that excuse ain't gonna fly.
-----
I do not see Sly or his lawyer using the "I was high defense' since Goldstein appears to have committed serveral crimes. .. This was the only thing I was questioning. Get a fucking grip on reality before you go off next time.
[Edited 5/12/10 12:32pm]

TD3 said:

Partially.

The main point being that he had competent representation to, at the very least, help him through the negotiation.
Any artist that doesn't also have a legal background, is foolish to sign anything (recording/management/etc contract) without serious counsel.


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theAudience said:

This is true.

I suspect that Stevie learned that the hard way...probably Ray Charles too. Apparently it took Sly a lot longer to get on top of things. There's many other artists in similar situations, such as WAR and even George Clinton.

babynoz said:

I think James Brown was going through the same thing a few years ago.

Timmy84 said:

I understand your point, however, lawyers are trained to circomvent the law for their advantage.

madhattter said:

I just caught this.

With all due respect, I wasn't "trained" nor educated to circumvent law. Granted, some lawyers do engage in unscrupulous, unethical, and illegal behaviour but to say lawyers are trained as such... is patently false.

madhattter said:

I just caught this.

With all due respect, I wasn't "trained" nor educated to circumvent law. Granted, some lawyers do engage in unscrupulous, unethical, and illegal behaviour but to say lawyers are trained as such... is patently false.

TD3 said:

I was wondering if you had missed that,

Btw, I also had a question for you in reply 13.

Here's a case of someone who obviously could not read his own contract and fortunately got it right.

An excerpt from a story posted here: http://prince.org/msg/8/335735

Margouleff and Cecil mentioned attorney Johanan Vigoda to him. A long time music business attorney who cut Jimi Hendrix's first US record deal and handled Richie Havens, Vigoda was a long-haired maverick who looked like hell, but was as sharp as they come ("Forget the fucking costume," one of his opponents once warned, "Vigoda's a shark"). He first met with Wonder in his Holiday Inn room, where Wonder told his prospective representative that he was going to ask for 25 per cent of his earnings across the board; records, songs, performances. "To me, it sounded nuts," said Vigoda.

It would be up to Vigoda to solve Wonder's problems with his somewhat tyrannical, usually inflexible record company. While Vigoda briefly entertained offers from other labels, Wonder always felt an allegiance to Motown and never seriously considered leaving the label, Vigoda said. Of course, Motown had never before granted any artist the kind of control over his career that Wonder was demanding.

BEFORE LONG, VIGODA FOUND HIMSELF IN CALIFORNIA, trying to hammer out a satisfactory agreement with Motown Records President Ewart Abner, who Vigoda used to represent when he ran Vee-Jay Records. "They basically surrounded me with lawyers," Vigoda said. "Every six hours, they would bring in another two lawyers with a fresh draft, around the clock. Berry hired all these outside law firms to cover me. They would have all these fancy lawyers in their suits with their yellow pads and I showed up in jeans, bandana and cowboy boots. I would do yoga, stand on my head, to deal with it."

While Motown's lawyers waited for Vigoda and Wonder to sign the finalised agreement, Vigoda realised they had worn him down to where he gave away some crucial procedural points and, at the last minute, advised Stevie against signing the document. After a long, restful sleep, Vigoda re-read the entire 240 page contract, making semi-legible handwritten changes with a felt-tipped magic marker. He delivered the dog-eared, scrawled-over contract to Motown with Wonder's signature and told them they had 48 hours to return this exact document signed or the deal was off. They brought it back, signed, in six hours.

Vigoda won unprecedented concessions from Motown. Wonder earned the total creative control he sought. The label was required to release the records he delivered "as is", said Vigoda. Wonder had complete command of cover art. The company retained only the right to pick the singles. Wonder won half of all his future publishing for his own Black Bull Music, and he won back half of the publishing to all his previous work. "He needed the freedom," said Vigoda. "He needed the money basically, to fund the freedom. He made more on the initial advance than he netted the entire previous 10 years."

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


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babynoz said:

Nothing at all, Mr. Goldstein must bring forth evidence to support his clients claims (Sly Stewart) that he's been defrauded. Civil fraud cases differ from civil suits, they must describe in detail the nature of the fraud. The law from state to state may differ, but all states have a definition... a criteria that must be meet to prove you've been defrauded. Civil fraud must be proved by clear and convincing evidence because the interests involved are deemed to be more substantial than the mere loss of money. This standard is more rigorous than the preponderance of the evidence required in a civil case, but less stringent than beyond a reasonable doubt neccassary in a criminal case where a person's liberty is at stake. Just because Stewart's lawyer claims Mr. Goldstein has a history of defrauding his clients doesn't make it true. If Mr. Stewart wins. it could set legal precedence for others how've been defrauded to file suit.

=====
[Edited 5/14/10 5:54am]

TD3 said:

Thanks a million...I was wondering how the standard of proof differs. I'm following this case and I hope the evidence is solid enough to prevail.