[Edited 6/23/09 16:05pm]

I think I'm gonna cry seeing this. Flo definitely got the wrong end of the stick in life.

I have always wondered if in her dotage, Diana regrets how she treated Flo. It's one thing to do somebody dirt, but to do it to a childhood friend, one that did not have the survival skills you did, well, that is fucked.

Timmy84 said:

You think the Shalamar thread produced some heated debates,,,,wait till this one come up

I'm def on pins & needles till I see this,,,,even though I know Unsung won't tap any new infos I'm not fimiliar with, still it'll be a good watch for the ones who are not.

scriptgirl said:

One can only hope wrt Diana, but I REALLY wonder about Berry, esp if it's true that he used his influence to keep Flo out of work/no air play. Diana was still fairly young when it all went down, but Berry was a full grown man when he did this to Flo. Berry knew what it was like to be used after working w/ Jackie Wilson, so throwing Flo to the wolves like that really looks even worse for him than Diana.

Since you like music books, have you read "The Lost Supreme"? I'm in the process of reading it now. I'd never heard Flo's PoV, so this is quite interesting for me. Can't wait to see what angle they'll use in the Unsung.

Harlepolis said:

Nah, everybody's gonna be down and out on this one. There's no way either Diana or Berry can smell like roses here, no positive spins. Flo had problems, but that situation made them far worse. These days, Flo would have just been sent to rehab and gotten on w/ her life as a Supreme....the fans wouldn't have stood for her being dogged like that.

In some ways, it's so much better for an artist today. Second chances are far more likely.

I'm done saying that Diana is the one who caused the demise of Flo's career. I think Berry is the SOLE reason who fucked her up.

And its not really Flo only, pick ANY Motown artist(minus Smokey Robinson) you'll find out that they got ruthlessly manipulated by Berry Gordy.
[Edited 6/23/09 17:00pm]

here we go...listen up everybody i will admit that berry gordy deserve his fair share of critic but the fact of the matter is if he didnt put time and money and muscle and vision behind florence ballard nobody i mean nobody would even known if she could sing or not, because believe it or not most singers like ms ballard ended up on a record exec bedroom and nothing esle would come from it.

I think that rape is what destroyed Flo. Berry was the icing on a melting cake. I mean, back then, rape was not talked about, esp in the black community.

Harlepolis said:

Yeah Diana was not the cause of Flo's problem but Berry Gordy definitely played his hand. If not entirely. I also blame Tommy Chapman. Flo was about to come back when she died.
[Edited 6/23/09 18:14pm]

Well the rape was a major personal problem for her, but in terms of her professional life it's obvious that Berry would brook no nonsense from her. He felt she was expendable and she was simply thrown on the scrap heap. That wasn't uncommon then, but in her case it was done so publicly that it stands out. Berry was out to give her maximum humiliation it seems...he got his wish. The woman ended up on welfare...sheesh. Of course, she nand her hubby made bad decisions too.

Diana didn't have the power to do what happened to Flo. Blaming her is easy cuz she's the one who gained most from it in the obvious way. I'm not convinced that Flo would have been successful solo act, but it's obvious that Berry used both contracts and connections to ensure she's not have a chance.

She wasn't the 1st or last he's suspected of doing this to, only the most public example.
[Edited 6/23/09 18:19pm]

brooksie said:

Exactly. I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions about Diana. I think
there was an article from a magazine or something where Flo's sister blamed
her misfortune on Diana. One of Flo's own children acknowledged Diana had
been nothing but kind to Flo's children especially after Flo's death. I know
Diana played the Diva part during the supremes heyday but she wasn't particularly responsible for Flo's demise. Mary's stories sometimes seem to
be conflicted at times so i don't believe everything that comes from her mouth.
[Edited 6/23/09 19:10pm]

Berry seemed to have really had it out for Flo in a way that went beyond wanting to protect his pet Diana. I wonder if he tried to make a play for Flo and she really let him have it.

scriptgirl said:

Yes, that makes lots of sense. I've seen stories that said Berry had real issues w/ her for taking up w/ the chauffeur (ie Chapman) who he thought was beneath HIS GIRLS and started in on her around this time about her weight.

I am pretty sure he didn't consider the Marvelettes his girls

scriptgirl said:

Nor the Vandellas.

No...it was The Supremes who were HIS GIRLS. This guy even picked out houses for them, on the same street! The level of control he had over these women was unreal and lasted until each one left Motown.

I don't know why he settled on The Supremes as THE ONES because both Martha and Gladys were far better singers, but he felt they were the ones who could take him to the top. Personally, I think any of the others could've too w/ the coaching.

brooksie said:

Because even with Flo's assertiveness, unlike the Vandellas and Marvelettes, the Supremes were willing to be his guinea pigs. Mary Wilson said that Berry began focusing on them shortly after signing them but they didn't get any success for three years because they didn't find their "sound" yet.

Wait, if Flo never revealed the name of her rapist, why does everyone assume it's that basketball player?

scriptgirl said:

It was supposedly confirmed to be him according to Peter Benjamison's book.

scriptgirl said:

She did name him...to her family and perhaps to a few others. Her niece told the guy who wrote "The Lost Supreme" (ie Peter Benjaminson) what his name was. Her sister Maxine wrote a book and pretty much gave it away in all but name. The guy's name was Reginald Harding and he died in 1972.

This dude was arrested for statutory rape even before what happened to Flo, but he was a basketball big shot (he played for the Detroit Pistons) and got away w/ alot of stuff apparently... until his playing fell off.

brooksie said:

I wonder if she told it to Mary and Diana. I heard Flo's daughters didn't even know about the incident until Mary blabbed about it on TV or on the book, I'm not sure where I heard the story.

Couldn't his family have sued for defmation or something? I wonder why he wasn't called out on the show

scriptgirl said:

His family haven't denied it. And I guess it's to respect him from public TV. Unless you have the book or heard about it online, you probably wanted to figure out who it was. Guess they just didn't wanna go there in RESPECT to HIS family and FLO'S.
[Edited 6/24/09 0:42am]

this one is gonna be very interesting

And sad

scriptgirl said:

I haven't seen the show clips yet, but I'm not surprised they haven't said anything against it. For starters, only living people can sue for defamation on their own behalf.....and this guy's been dead a long time, so legally the family has no leg to stand on. Then w/ his criminial record (public record) was so extensive and violent (he got shot and died right after he got outta jail) that even if his family COULD sue, they'd not have much in their favor.
[Edited 6/24/09 11:33am]

Timmy84 said:

She probably did tell them even just as a warning. This guy was the local hero back then and it was very likely Diane and Mary could have run into him at some point. Apparently Flo's incident happened after a sock hop she and her brother attended together. Somehow they got separated and this basketball guy offered her a ride home. She went w/ him because she "knew" him. The kid was well known to the teens and had his dirt covered up cuz he was a "hero", so Flo would maybe decided to hip them to what happened so the same wouldn't happen to them.

As for her daughters, they were so young when their mother died that it's quite likely they did learn about it from Mary rather than their family, sadly. I don't think Mary named the "hero", but she did talk about the incident in her books and stuff.

Timmy84 said:

I think he went for the Supremes because of DIANA'S sound. Her smallish high registered slightly nasal voice was quite different that what was popular for Black female singers. Most had rather full and well rounded voices w/ some gospel influence, but Diana is notable for the complete absence of any of these things. Diana's voice had a quality that was both new and very delicate. I think this is why he stuck w/ them for 4 hitless years cuz he wanted THAT VOICE to hit it's stride.

I'm always surprised that Smokey failed w/ them and did so for so long. He's the one who got Mary Wells to successfully move to a softer higher registered sound, but he fails w/ The Supremes?
[Edited 6/24/09 12:14pm]

brooksie said:

The reason they couldn't find a hit was because they couldn't tell Diana shit back then. She thought she could hang singing in that nasal tone. It wasn't until giving "that crappy song" "Where Did Our Love Go" where she changed her vocal register that things change. Oh and the fact that technically Holland-Dozier-Holland had by that point began to find the niche that made them the producing stars of the Motown label eclipsing Smokey. Also to put it lightly, Diana was the Eartha Kitt of R&B in a VOCAL sense.
[Edited 6/24/09 12:36pm]