Timmy84 said:

I've seen several threads asking why Black folks aren't into rock and/or when they dropped it. Too bad they're either very old or locked cuz there was definitely a turning point. The funny thing is that many artists who are thought of as soul artists from that era were considered rock artists OR rnb artists who performed rock back then. Revisionist history has wiped them outta the rock cannon.

Most people think of classic Rod Stewart (a la Jeff Beck Group and Faces) as heavy rock, right? He's doing straight up Sam and Jackie in his vocal style, yet they aren't considered rock?

Perhaps too, most people think of rock ONLY as screaming lead guitars and super loud plugged in bass. That's a mid 60s thing really cuz until the Beatles, the sax or piano handled much of what guitar would later do....then there was standing bass. Maybe they don't recognize it as rock because the different instruments were emphasized? What I find so funny about this is that most of what is considered rock from the mid 60s to today was what people back then considered straight blues...ie Muddy Waters, Bobby "Blue" Bland, etc. Early rock sounded nothing like this!

I consider "Green Onions" the song that really kicked off modern rock. 1962!
[Edited 6/15/09 17:30pm]

brooksie said:

You don't get no arguments from me!

Timmy84 said:

I can't think of any song before this (which was a huge hit) that had all the rock (I call the 50s rock n roll vs rock of the 60s+) cannon...fully plugged and barest instrumentation. Bands w/ only 4 instrumentalists were almost unheard of back then. Even Jimi Hendrix had to be sold on ONLY 3 pieces The only thing lacking was a serious guitar solo...Cropper stayed mostly w/in the rhythym style.

Can you think of another Black artist who came between Checker and Hendrix who are considered rock? I can't, but what do you think?

brooksie said:

You mean besides from James Brown and the Turners (Ike & Tina)? I would think Etta was a "rock 'n' roller". Early Motown was especially rock 'n' roll, especially Marv Johnson and the early Miracles and Marvelettes songs.

Timmy84 said:

I think Ike and Tina are definitely considered rock, but they came before Chubby Checker. Ike and Tina are 50s vintage. Tho JB changed his sound in the 60s to be more "soul", his early stuff from the 50s was def rock n roll.

Funny you mention Etta, but I was going to say if Lil Willie ever had a efmale counterpart, it was Etta, but I thought that might be too audacious.

I don't think Motown has much of that era "considered" rock. Early Miracles definitely was as is the song "Money" and quite a bit more. Ironically several of these early Motown songs were covered by Enligh rock bands. My fav cover from Motown is The Who's "Heatwave".
[Edited 6/15/09 17:53pm]

brooksie said:

Yeah, they also covered "Money" over there. "Can I Get a Witness" was also covered. Usually early Motown from 1959-1964 gets covered a lot by English rock bands. That's why Motown artists from that period and afterwards (Marvin, Smokey, etc.) get as respected in the UK as they did. But see that is ironic, yeah I know early Motown is not considered "rock" but to me it did influence some variations of modern rock due to its influences.

Also Ike & Tina's origins MAY be from the '50s, I mean Ike obviously came from the early period of that era, but "A Fool in Love" was a hit AFTER Chubby "twisted".
[Edited 6/15/09 18:02pm]

Timmy84 said:

I actually believe Ike goes back to the late 40s like Muddy Waters and the gang. He's truly a rock pioneer. You're right that Checker had a big hit 1st, but Ike and Tina were a hot act on the Circuit since Adam's housecat was a kitten!

Motown really had a major influence on early British Invansion groups in those early days. Few of them were venturing into "true blues" before about 65-66, they were still on the rnb tip. The blues and early rock n roll guys started to come over about this time or a bit earlier and that's when they got into the harder stuff. It's funny that the Clapton era Yardbirds had a big hit on "Good Morning Little Schoolgirl" and there's hardly any guitar in evidence! This was a blues song they turned into complete rnb w/ a Booker T swing. It always cracks me up that the Beatles did Motown and Lil Willie "music hall" style. No Yank would have ever thought to sing it like they did!

Timmy lemme ask you, what do you think of Ritchie Havens and Arthur Lee? I always hip people to Ritchie and everybody's surprised when they get a look at him...a BLACK folkie Dylan type dude? I always loved how much jazz instrumentation he used. Speaking of, do you think Miles crossed the street once he did "Bitches Brew"? While trumpet has long since been relegated or dismissed from rock, I think he did.

It's a shame that Jackie never signed to Motown Tamla....he coulda taken it in a whole 'nother direction.

Weird, ain't it? But yeah Ike does go back that far! I think he was 17 when his career took off! He was the sideman for SO MANY blues artists it doesn't make sense. But I do agree that Ike & Tina were a hot act on the circuit in the late 1950s. Tina was about 18 or 19 when she started out in the circuit, I think, as "Little Ann". She became "Tina Turner" in 1960, lol. And yeah I did notice no guitar on the Yardbirds' version of "Schoolgirl", lol. As for the Beatles, they did the same thing to early Isley Brothers hits.

brooksie said:

Ritchie is cool! As for Arthur Lee? The precursor to Jimi Hendrix I believe. And Miles definitely crossed into rock with "Bitches' Brew".

Timmy84 said:

Oy vey, I'd forgotten "Twist and Shout"...why'd you have to remind me? (I'm ing) It amazes me that the Beatles blew up so big w/ their early material cuz it was so lame. Later Beatles I get (around 65-66 or so), but the early stuff was no reason to throw over the Yanks like Ricky Nelson (Fabian and Pat Boone NEEDED to go). I've always rated 60s London area bands far higher than the up North stuff. The Animals are a notable exception. Once we hit the 70s onwards, I rate the Northerners higher.
[Edited 6/15/09 18:46pm]

brooksie said:

The reason the Beatles took off was for one reason and one reason: they were long-haired guys from another country who excited the mainstream after Kennedy passed away. Also, I guess American deejays felt like playing more British pop after Dusty Springfield arrived around that same time (Beatles records in the US were played as late as 1962 but were flops until late '63).

As for the Nuggets, I don't think I am but I can be hip.

Timmy84 said:

Oh yes, I forgot the long hair! When I was a kid and saw the "mop tops" and was hipped to the long hair controversy, I asked "where's the long hair?". Their hair was short to my eyes. Needless to say, their hair wasn't any big deal by the late 70s-early 80s.

Nuggets was one of the 1st comps of "old stuff" (only 4-7 years before 1972). Lenny Kaye put it togehter before he joined Patti Smith. The original was a 2 LP set of "garage bands" that happened either locally or had 5 mins of fame, but were pretty much lost to the British Invasion. A few have tunes/bands future big timers like The Hawks (soon to be The Band), Arthur Lee, Ted Nugent, Captain Beefheart, etc....but most are pretty crappy IMHO. It's like ? and the Mysterions, The Electric Prunes, and that sorta stuff.

This collection was considered the precursor to punk rock, so they say. (I say not really...UK gets my vote) This collection has a grand total of ONE Black(ish) group represented...Love (Arthur Lee's group). IMHO, this collection and the later NYC punk scene is really when the concerted effort to whitewah rock begins in earnest. Of course, the Bad Brains come on the scene and kinda screw it up, but this had a real long term effect.





[Edited 6/15/09 19:29pm]