Just because you don't like someone's music and their style of music isn't to your personal taste doesn't mean they aren't a "real" songwriter or they don't have talent.
Sorry to his fans, but I don't particularly care for Michael Jackson's songs, but I would never say he's not a real songwriter or doesn't have talent at what he does.
The reason that the demo version of I Love New York was on the "I'm Gonna Tell you a Secret" was because it was used in the movie when she and her touring group was on their way to do their New York shows. The cd is not really one of her regular cd's. It was a bonus to the DVD of the movie. It was like a movie soundtrack.

Glindathegood said:

Actually, I DO like her music (I'm gay, it's in the contract), I just don't think she's a brilliant or underrated songwriter. Sue me.

She's great at other things, like entertaining.
[Edited 4/14/09 17:09pm]

VoicesCarry said:

Ok kids - school's out!

paisleypark4 said:

that's not true.

VoicesCarry said:

I would only say that she is underrated in the fact that people don't even think she writes her own stuff (and that is somehow just taking songwriting credits because she can). Her music is what it is. Very good pop. Often catchy and sometimes emotional. Not super intellectual but a bit more cleaver than current stuff out there. Lately her heart doesn't seem to be in it as much and the songs aren't as great but she is still pretty good.

graecophilos said:

i was saying that ironically

I appreciate Madonna songwriting skills, and I always enjoy her melodies

paisleypark4 said:

^^likes Lil Wayne

Close2u said:

haha, you're such a kind person, aren't you the one who said you liked my old avatar (it was me in the picture)?

Because of that remark I changed it now.

graecophilos said:

I think that is someone else

About her writing process with Patrick Leonard:

Interviewer: How does your writing process work? I know that many of your songs were written with Pat Leonard. You’ve mentioned that sometimes you’ll come up with a melody and bring it to him and let him figure it out–

Madonna: Yes. In my very retarded fashion I will sing it to him. Or hum the melody line to him, and he will put it into a chord progression and we’ll come up with the song that way.

Interviewer: These are melodies that just pop into your head?

Madonna: Yeah. And I start singing them just from my head. Or if I think of a lyric, like a hook or a line, I’ll just put it to a melody and he’ll bang it out on the piano for me.

Interviewer: You must have a great working relationship to be able to connect with him at that stage of the process.

Madonna: We have a very good working relationship because we both come from the Midwest, and we both worked our butts off to get where we are. But, you know, he’s the one who studied music. He knows how to read music, how to write music. I don’t know any of that. I’m completely instinctual and he’s completely intellectual. So it’s a really good combination.

Interviewer: Does he every give you a finished melody to write words to?

Madonna: Yes, he does. But inevitably we fashion it to me. I don’t think he’s ever written a melody that I just took and said, "Okay, that’s finished, I’ll just slap some words on it." It always needs to be worked.

Interviewer: One of my favorite songs on the album that you two wrote is "Oh Father."

Madonna: Isn’t that great?

Interviewer: It’s beautiful. And it’s one of those songs that has a near perfect marriage of words and music.

Madonna: That’s the great thing about Pat. I mean, Pat puts together these really strange chord progressions and these really great time signatures, and I’ll listen to it and I won’t even think about it. I’ll just put it on, and I’ll just keep playing it over and over again; it’s like free association. I’ll start singing words to it and making them fit. I don’t thing of structure. I don’t think of first chorus, first bridge.

Interviewer: Did you come up with the melody for "Oh Father"?

Madonna: No, no, Pat thought of that melody.

http://allaboutmadonna.co...ummer-1989

Since Like A Prayer though, she gets instrumental tracks from the producer and writes the lyrics and melody on top of it. It was definitely like that for Erotica & COADF. Hard Candy was different because she was working with songwriters again, like she said.

LiveToTell86 said:

I have this interview, and it's one of the most interesting ones. Certainly the only one where she talks about her music and the process of writing it rather than just: "Well, we get inspired, and wanted to write catchy tunes..."

Well, it's what I said in teh first posting: In the 80s Madonna either got songs from other songwriters (Papa, Holiday, Borderline etc) or she merely wrote teh words to Bray's and Leonard's music (Oh Father, Keep It Together).

Since Pettibone she often times comes up with Melodies ON HER OWN over other people's production.

Well, I said that all before and now after three pages I still think it's true what i said! HA !

^Yeah, it's a very interesting interview, but it's not really her fault that she can't talk about the process more. For example in Q magazine last year she did give hints about how Pharrell was innovative in the studio and he used the instruments for other uses (he can't play the guitar), but for example in the COADF era, we only got to hear stuff like "ABBA is all we ever listened to" and "I can't wait to play I Love New York Live", the rest of the questions were about if she regrets the SEX book or "tell us a day of Madonna" or "why are you not political anymore".

I think the difference between before and after LAP is that she's been doing electronic and synthesized music, while with Stephen and Patrick she was going with the "real instruments" style. She did do the "guitar only" approach on AL but many consider those song her least interesting ones, so...

LiveToTell86 said:

But there a several 2008 interviews up on youtube where they asked her about all the songs. She was asked what she would think of Heartbeat, how it was written (and WE all know it was written by Pharrell and Madonna changed some lyrics).and she said something like she dunno, they just wanted to write great pop songs blablabla.
So, I wouldn't say she is not asked about her music, she obviously doesn't like to talk about the process of songwriting in detail. It's all very vague.

lol, funny you mention "Heartbeat", because in the past few days there was this big discussion on a M forum about it, and many of us don't believe that Madonna just changed a few words, because she got 50% royalties for the track. If Madonna only got 33% for "Paradise", then it's weird that Pharrell let her take half the credit for "Heartbeat". A Neptunes fansite even listed that demo as a "vocal demonstration" for Madonna, because the lyrics Pharrell sang were improvisational. She did say that Pharrell made her sing differently (he even made her cry) so I just don't see that she got fake credits for "Heartbeat", when she had to settle for 12.5% for "Devil Wouldn't Recognize You" for example...

Here's her share on "Heartbeat":

http://www.warnerchappell...=splitinfo

"Paradise (Not For Me)"

http://www.warnerchappell...=splitinfo

LiveToTell86 said:

wow, thank you I didn't know she only got a certain percentage! Are there ALL of her songs listed?

You might have a point. Well, you know, at the end of the day we don't know ANYTHING.
But I like Pharrell's songs and Heartbeat is soooo him, musically, I doubt Madonna did have anything to do with its music.

From the demo WE know, it seems as if Madonna changed the verse lyrics and changed the grammatical person from the third to first in the chorus.

So, it's not just that she changed a few words, she changed like two thirds.

Maybe that's the 50%?

Anyway, Pharrell got what almost nobody got: His name came first!

^Yes, all of her songs are listed there, even some outtakes.

She usually gets 50%, but in cases like "Devil..." she had to settle for less because of too many collaborators. She wrote all the lyrics of "Hung Up" yet that was only good for 25% because 50% is taken away by the ABBA guys.

You're right, we really don't know anything unless Madonna and Pharrell tell every single detail lol, same case with "Ray Of Light" and "Nothing Fails", where Madonna only changed some bits, supposedly...

Babyface & Nellee Hooper also got listed before Madonna. I wonder if it means anything, because it's not reflected in the royalties? Maybe some songwriters prefer that way because they wrote the music first and Madonna came after, or something?

LiveToTell86 said:

I always thought the 100% would be divided by the number of songwriters.

Whatever reason there is. I'm sure Madonna battles for every percentage

There's a mirwais outtake Da Prayer. Is this some early version or a unreleased song??

bboy87 said:

Timmy84 said:

edit
[Edited 4/19/09 13:17pm]

graecophilos said:

I believe that was some non-Madonna song that sampled "Music", not sure if it was released.

LiveToTell86 said:

ah, I remember it was on Mirwais' album.

graecophilos said:

You probably think of "Never Young Again", that was the basis of the track "Music", but "Da Prayer" was by someone else, who sampled Madonna/Mirwais in 2004.

Not really. Alanis Morissette is an underrated songwriter. Madonna's writing is very generic.

LiveToTell86 said:

Isn't a 1999 song by Daft Punk called Da Prayer?

VinnyM27 said:

I would agree with this. She's certainly no Prince or Dylan, but she has a knack for being able to write catchy melodies and hooks, and sometimes throws in a decent lyric or too - albeit a little cliche laden. Considering most people dont think she writes any of it - she's underrated in that sense.

Its interesting to listen to her early stuff that was written by herself when she had learnt very basic guitar chords. The demo Love Express that leaked recently shows that while a lot of her writing is simplistic - she has a knack for hooks and catchy pop melodies. The same can be said for a lot of her early stuff. That she started to write songs only shortly after learning basic guitar indicates she has some natural inclination toward songwriting.

I think the fact that she uses other peoples technical and intellectual abilities to make music, makes some people uneasy in calling her a decent songwriter. I dont know whether that is people wanting to not give her any credit for the stuff she does, as that would indicate she has some talent - and its her lack of talent most people like to base their anti-madonna rants on. You can be sure they arent as quick to dismiss the collaborative efforts of many bands out there.

Ultimately she is the one consistent in her songs and songwriting - and while in recent years shes suffered creative decline - its hard to deprive her of the credit her songs should give her.

CrozzaUK said:

I think her creativity ebbs and flows. From 1979 til 1983 she did write pretty much on her own. On LAV she tried, but I'm sure she realised that her own songs didn't turn out as good as the others.
From 1984 til 1987 she mostly took other people's melodies.

In 1988 she was inspire by her divorce and other family stuff, that's why LAP was such a good album.

On the Dick Tracy album I think Pat Leonard wrote most of the music and the other half are by others.

Then she began working in late 1991 with Shep and Madonna wrote pretty much with him. But not necessarily the bests.

From 1992 to early 1994 she didn't write mucg at all!!

Bedtime Stories relies on the other musician's melodies (Take A Bow) and from 1994 til 1997 she didn't write much!!!

As you can see, there were sometimes almost 2 years when she didn't seem to write much. At least nothing substancial or released.

From 1998 til 2003 she was pretty much inspired, the same goes for 2004/05 but in 2007 she was comdortable with singing other people's melodies...

Overrated as a whole.

People have ben telling me to watch her on stage, I did, I saw nothing out of ordinary, Pure pop act with a little talent.

I would never take her seriously as an artist.

leave songwriting to real songwriters.

seeingvoices12 said:

That's a bit harsh, don'tcha think? Despite the fact that I think she's an average artist all around (singer, actress, writer, dancer, performer, lyricist, etc), she's expertly manuevered herself into this position as being a pop icon. Her stage shows are a spectacle in deed but she's glaringly average. However, I definitely think she's peerless when it comes to business and what I like to call "hu$tlenomics."

She's highly intelligent, shrewd, savvy and trendsetting. But she's a piss poor songwriter - she probably realizes it. But it doesn't stop her from being the greatest female pop star that ever lived.

chuckaducci said:

LOL, the title of the thread is flawed, you are called Underrated songwriter when you write real pieces of music most of them overlooked by people ,Madonna is not that, she heavily promotes her stuff, And people don't take her seriously as a songwriter despite the promotion.

Stop inflating madonna's talent, you say that she is peerless in business and you are right but as far as raw talent, she is nowhere to be found among real artists and songwriters . Fact.

I have nothing against Madonna, and i wasn't harsh, I haven't insulted her, I said whats need to be said .