Examples of their plagiarism that I didn't know about before. I can't respect this band.

Very interesting video. I had heard a couple of those before but it really looks bad when they are all played together like that. Still I will continue to enjoy Led Zeppelin's music. Theft is nothing new in the music business. For example, did James Brown get any credit for Alicia Keys' "Fallin"? I suspect that management had as much to do with the songwriting credits as Jimmy Page did. After all there's a lot of money to be made in publishing. No doubt about it, credit should be given where it's due and it's sad that Jimmy Page is still hesitant to do so but I think that Zeppelin had enough great original material in them for me to forgive any "stealing" that they did.

ouch!

I thought a lot of this was common knowledge.

Wow!
I actually read articles about this,but did'nt think
it was this obvious.I met Willie Dixon's widow last year
and she told me about her husband suing "Led Zeppelin"
for "Whole lotta love",but I did'nt think so many of their songs
were covers of old bluessongs.

This makes "Led Zeppelin" the greatest coverband in the world:)
I love their music and performances,but how could
Page & Plant sleep at night taking credit for that and
did they not think the world would find out about it?

/peace Manki

Paris9748430 said:

Quite.


At one part it says that "in 1985 Willie Dixon sued Led Zeppelin". That's 23 years ago! Not exactly what I'd call news. I realise a lot of people out there don't know this stuff, but anyone with more than a passing interest in Led Zep will have read about this subject over and over again in countless articles.

I believe these days the albums have the correct writing credits on them.


With regards to the plagiarism - can't argue with the charges. It was a pretty shitty thing to do and shows the arrogance of the band and their management.
However, let's not make out that they couldn't write their own material - they had enough of their own creativity to bring to the table!

rocknrolldave said:

Willie Dixon's song was the original source of the Led Zep track but the actual inspiration was a cover version of the song, You Need Loving on The Small Faces' first album. When forming the band Page wanted a singer like Steve Marriott and both Page and Plant are known to have attended Small Faces gigs.

It's the first two albums that are covers. Even though they made them their own, they should have acknowledged the artists they were cutting into. I think the painful part is the money they made and didn't pass on given this fact.

I'm glad people realize this but I realized it when I started digging into real music. I suggest everyone who appreciates all music do the same.

It took Brits to do this for the Americans to recognize this powerful music in their own back yard but ignored because of racial ignorance.

Paris9748430 said:

yeah, so did I.

Thats not a good look. If you ask me, Lenny can 'borrow' from all the Zeppelin songs he wants, because chances are they ripped it from some unknown writer in the first place.

So Jimmy Page didnt neccessarily have a deal w/ the devil. He just stole a bunch of shit from struggling blues artists.
[Edited 2/18/08 6:27am]

I thought this was all common knowledge too, and I'm a young cat.

I was waiting for some more iconic songs to appear in the video....but no. As long as Led Zep wrote "Kashmir" and "Immigrant Song", it's all cool with me, lol.

Militant said:

'Stairway.." is about as iconic as they come.

I've read about them being sued for not giving proper writing credit, but this is the 1st time that I've heard the original songs for myself.

THat said, I still rock "Houses of the Holy" on rainy days.

unkemptpueblo said:

Exactly. Like the rest of the Rock N Roll artist out there. The influence of the Blues on Rock N Roll is major. If anything more Rock artist ( especially the younger artist should give more homage and respect) to the blues which is the blueprint of the music form.
[Edited 2/18/08 7:45am]

anyone with the slightest ear would at least be able to tell that their music is made up of blues standards.

unkemptpueblo said:

Exactly. Valid point.
[Edited 2/18/08 7:26am]

unkemptpueblo said:

I might add you've mentioned a valuable point about the strugggling aspect of the Blues Artist. It is the struggle that infuses or drives the artist to write about his life struggles and like alot of Black Music artist in the Early 20th Century they didn't get their proper recognition or credit.

this sh*t probably allows prince to justify all the ripping off he did.

sosgemini said:

rialb said:

That's partly why I have a love-hate thing for Zep. Their orignality really shows thru on subsequent albums and even on their covers of the plagirized tunes. It's of major significance that original releases of the debut were pulled and reissued with Dixon's named added to the credits. Zep's entire career was based on the success of that first album, so retroactive royalties had to be paid.

PFunkjazz said:

Valid point.

Paris9748430 said:

Indeed. I already knew of most those examples, but it is a little striking just how many of their songs were 'borrowed' from earlier artists and credit taken by Page/ Plant.

Having said that, this has been common practice for many, many bands/ artists since day one. In fact, it's a long and (dis)honourable tradition, depending on your point of view.

Even with respect to Willie Dixon, he didn't invent the blues (nor did self styled 'inventor of the blues' WC Handy, also a 'borrower' of other people's blues songs who took credit for them long before), and I'm sure Dixon took loads of stuff from earlier songs and took credit for those 'cos he knew he could do some business ... In fact he was probably braver, 'cos, as is well known, in those days, if certain blues cats found out you were borrowing their thang, they might well come after you with something a whole lot sharper than a lawsuit .

It's also well known that blues and folk musicians begged, borrowed or stole songs, riffs, lyrics, arrangements since the dawn of time. Bob Dylan's been accused of doing the same thing on and off through his career. One person's 'adaptation' is someone else's 'theft'.

At one time, there were two bluesman peddling their wares as 'Sonny Boy Williamson'; one came first, the other (a guy called Rice Miller, the 'famous 'Sonny Boy Williamson) took his name and hit the bigger time.

The great bluesman John Lee Hooker even had a light hearted 'technical term' attached to the way he 'borrowed' other people's songs, from blues standards to James Brown's 'I Feel Good' - Hookerisation . Mind you, he would generally transform the song into his own unique style. Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson both borrowed heavily from the style and repertoire of mentors like Son House and Charlie Patten.

Charlie Parker took the popular song 'Cherokee' and 'Parkerised' it into the incredible 'Koko', but I haven't heard of lawyers hunting down his estate ...

Music copyright is a huge grey area. If a lawyer got into this area of 'folk music copyright' too deep, it would be a never ending trip back into the mists of time, from the Mississipi delta back to Africa and the British Isles - what unknown, long dead bard/ griot originated all this -trying to work out who originated what song, riff, lyric line. You've got to stop somewhere.

Back on point, I agree that, on the evidence above, Page was both under-handed and lucky - and he had both a lot of money and Peter Grant - super-hardman Zeppelin manager to er, 'bounce' most litigation back where it came from, I'd guess.

It's human nature. Everybody wants to take credit for this cool song or that cool riff or lyric. Some earlier links in the chain get more 'disgusted' than others, and sue the next link in the chain, for understandable financial/ reputation reasons, but let's not kid ourselves that Page was the only one who did this to blues songs, and that most artists haven't done this for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Imo, music's one big continuum, being invented and reinvented all the way.

PFunkjazz said:

They were??

Miles said:

Elegantly stated.

Cinnie said:

Yeah. The suit was finally settled in mid-80s and subsequently the entire catalog was reissued with updated credits and a "catch-up" payment plan for Dixon's estate.

Makes more sense why my dad listens to blues and Led Zeppelin though.

JIMMY PAGE PROBABLY DOESN'T REMEMBER THE GUITAR SOLO HE PLAYED ON THE 1965 HIT "IT'S NOT UNUSUAL" BY THE ONE & ONLY TOM JONES!!!!!

sosgemini said:

WORD!!!!! BETTY DAVIS SHOULD SUE THA SH*T OUTTA PRINCE!!!!! YA KNOW THAT STRANGE YELP HE DOES AT THE BEGINNING OF 1981'S "SEXUALITY"??? IT'S A DIRECT RIP-OFF OF MS. BETTY DAVIS!!!!! SHE HAD A SONG OUT BACK IN THE 70'S CALLED "DEDICATED TO THE PRESS" AND ABOUT 2 & 1/2- 3 MINUTES IN THE SONG.....U GUESSED IT.....

I think one thing that makes Zeppelin's "theft" much more obvious is the fact that they often didn't even bother changing the words and if they did they often kept enough of the original to make it obvious where they got the idea from. It's easier to deny stealing music rather than lyrics.

unkemptpueblo said:

Yeah, apart from that one, right at the very end of the damn video when you think it's finished and hit "post response" on a message board.

Miles said:

A few other examples I might add

Many of Ray Charles' early soul hits were in fact just jazzier arrangements of traditional gospel songs with rewrittern, secularized words: I got a woman, this little girl of mine etc.

As you pointed out, even as far back as Robert Johnson, blues artists were "borrowing" or "adapting" songs from their predecessors (and contemporaries) and claiming them as their own. Robert's "If I had possession over judgement day" is based on hambone willie newburn's "Roll And tumble" which then became adapted by subsequent blues artists as "rollin' and tumblin'". There's even an interesting compilation of songs by various predecessors of Robert Johnson called "The roots of Robert Johnson" one might check out.

Chuck Berry's "Maybelleine" is adapted from a blue grass song "Ida Red". Furthermore, as even chuck himself ackwnowledged, many of his hits were created by grafting his guitar riffs, solos and lyrics onto the boogie arrangements that his piano player Johnnie Johnson had already come up with (some might speculate this is why many of his songs are in "piano keys" like F and C instead of "guitar keys" like E, A or D). Finally in an interview for Taylor Hackford's film Hail hail Rock N roll, Chuck said that his classic guitar intros were modified from the intro piano vamps that Louis jordan's bands would play.

As you said, many of Charlier Parker's early bebop compositions were "contrafacts" (songs created by using the same chord progressions as earlier songs) of tin pan alley and big band swing songs.

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that certain similarities between pieces of music may reflect an artist using the same basic structural element as another one or coincidentally stumbling upon a similar structural element rather than conscious plagiarism. Led zeppelin's "Rock N Roll" for example probably sounds similar to many early rock songs because, well, it's an homage to early rock n roll and they're using the same basic structure, likewise "Maggot Brain" might sound similar to a number of Otis Redding songs because his ballads often opened with an arpeggio, as does Maggot Brain.

Technically speaking the blues and rock n roll have a very basic structure, which simultaneously allows for a lot of variation and room with which to build on, but also can cause a lot of similarity or seeming redundancy. I think the same might be said of any number of styles and genres of music, there's bound to be striking similarities between certain artists' music because they have to share certain characteristics in order to belong in the same genre.