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Thread started 09/12/07 12:06pm

namepeace

The Rap's On . . . Us? Article and Comment on the state of hip-hop

Offended? The Rap's On Me.

Justin D. Ross (Maryland State Representative)
Washington Post
Sept. 9. 2007

When it comes to sexism and racism in hip-hop, I'm part of the problem.

Let me explain. I love hip-hop -- have ever since it first came on the scene when I was in elementary school. Over the years, I've bought hundreds of tapes, CDs and downloads, gone to countless rap concerts, even worn my favorite artists' clothing lines. We used to think of hip-hop as just a black thing, but it's not. The largest share of rap music sales in America goes to white listeners. That would be me.

So I'm not just sounding off when I say this: It's time for a boycott of all rap music that stereotypes African Americans or insults and degrades women. And in particular, the people who need to be doing the boycotting are white fans like myself.

In the current debate over whether hip-hop has become degrading to women and harmful to race relations, I've heard quite a bit from black activists, some of whom have fought for years against the sort of lyrics I'm writing about, and I've gotten several earfuls from black rap artists. But I haven't heard a peep from the white fans who essentially underwrite the industry by purchasing more than 70 percent of the rap music in this country, according to Mediamark Research Inc. I don't presume to tell any artist, studio executive or record label what to record or not record. But I will presume to ask young white customers: Why are we buying this stuff?

Across the country, white kids in comfortable suburban neighborhoods (mine was Greenbelt) sit in their cars or bedrooms or studio apartments, listening to the latest rap music that glorifies violence, peddles racist stereotypes and portrays women as little more than animals. We look through the keyhole into a violent, sexy world of "money, ho's and clothes." We're excited to be transported to a place where people brag about gunplay, use racial epithets continually and talk freely about dealing drugs. And then we turn off whatever we're listening to and return to our comfy world in time for dinner.

But music is powerful. You can't just turn it on and off with a switch. Back in 1989, rap music had this white kid wearing a leather African pendant and reading Malcolm X because Chuck D did. Before I graduated from Kenmoor Middle School, I was ready to "Fight the Power" because Public Enemy told me to (even though I didn't really know what that meant).

But it has been a long time since Public Enemy. Some hip-hop artists (the Roots, Talib Kweli, D.C.'s own Wale) still succeed without using stereotypes and misogyny, but too much of today's rap goes another way: It's full of drug dealing and killing, and it portrays women as sex objects. A generation ago, at least some element of hip-hop remained loyal to the civil rights movement. Now songs talk so casually about selling crack and committing murder that listeners are desensitized to the words' effect.

Let's be clear about what we -- rap's huge white audience -- are becoming insensitive to: crime against black people, drugs being sold in black neighborhoods, black people being killed. I think this desensitization is partly responsible for the absence of discussion about the cruel fact that, according to a 2001 study by the Department of Health and Human Services, the leading killer of African Americans ages 15 to 34 is homicide. It may also help explain why you'll seldom hear politicians talking about another awful statistic: According to the same study, African Americans are five times more likely than whites to be victims of homicide.

So who are the rappers really aiming at? Many rap songs use the "N-word" a dozen times or more. But I can count on two hands the number of times I've heard the words "whitey" or "cracker" in rap music. I wonder: If the Grand Wizard himself owned a record label, how much different would the music sound?

I also wonder what would happen if rap artists started talking about selling dope in the suburbs, or shooting white people or beating down white men. Would rap's comfortable white fans continue to consume it? I suspect the record companies wouldn't even sell it. Like the majority of people who buy rap music, the majority of people who get rich off it are white. That sort of thing might hit a little too close to home for hip-hop's fans and profiteers.

The other day, my 3-year-old wanted to listen to some music on my iPod. Before I let her, I checked out what I had on there. Much of it was trash I wouldn't let her listen to. I've been waxing intellectual for years about the state of rap and how it needs to change, and there I was, looking at my iPod and seeing songs such as "Hustlin'," "Bury Me a G" and "Poppin' My Collar," all of which are guilty of the very offenses I just decried and all of which I purchased within the past year.

That's when it hit me: I'm the problem. It's time for me and others like me to own up to our role in peddling degrading hip-hop. Of course, I can't legislate a boycott of offensive rap, except for myself. And that's exactly what I plan to do.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #1 posted 09/12/07 12:32pm

lastdecember

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Very good article but the point is still who is putting it out, thats where the issue stems from, you have to cut the source off, thats the only way it will change, because mainly, a good % of people are gonna buy what they hear, and younger fans are gonna buy whats cool. So until radio alters its playlists and labels stop signing and promoting what they promote, you will get no change in enviroment. To sum this issue up go into a Club in NYC and hear tons of these Hip Hop Songs and look around to whos dancing to them, mainly white girls from the south here in NYC, and thinking that being "black" is saying the word "gangsta" every other word.

"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #2 posted 09/12/07 12:32pm

namepeace

I loved the article. I came to that conclusion years ago.

It's funny that I have been in an extended debate over the merits of The Notorious B.I.G. on another thread. He was a drug dealer, a braggart, and a storyteller, but IMHO, when he was at his best, he wove his semi-fabricated stories with wit, context, and emotion. He was a great MC, but his subject matter dealt with some of the worst elements of black life. He walked, and often tripped over, the fine line between depicting bad conditions and glorifying them, for all of his talents. Same, perhaps even moreso, with Tupac Shakur.

Their deaths are attributable to the lives they portrayed on wax and in the media. My interest in hip-hop diminished at that point. The focus on drugs, violence, misogyny and most poisonous of all, materialism and ignorance, lost any substantive context it may have had as most artists strove to fill the void left by their much more talented predecessors. Now, hip-hop is this century's answer to the minstrel show. With one big exception. Blacks have given it the cultural cache necessary for others to consume it without guilty consciences.

I, and many other hip-hop heads, grew up with hip-hop and came of age in its golden age of the late 80's to mid-90's. Then, hip-hop was a broad canvass of styles, messages, religions, and topics. NWA, Ice Cube and Ice-T were giving voice to one part of the black experience, but BDP, De La Soul, Public Enemy, A Tribe Called Quest, and X-Clan offered different perspectives (and got great exposure from outlets like Yo! MTV Raps). But the success of gangsta rap forced the other, more positive voices to the margins.

It all depends on the the artist. If a talented MC like Biggie, Tupac or jay-Z is dealing with the subject matter, it can be of some worth. But in the hands of lesser talents, it can prove worthless if not outright harmful and exploitative.

Take for example, film. Scorcese can make Goodfellas, but hacks can copy it and turn it into a violent joke. Or Tarantino can make a Reservoir Dogs and then exploit his own work in future movies. The same has happened with rap music. And the deaths of arguably the two greatest hardcore MCs the genre has seen changed nothing about that.

So, I still appreciate some of the earlier hardcore/gangsta hip-hop by some of the originators, but for the last 10 years, I've bought much less hip-hop. I have been encouraged by the vibrant underground scene, which has included MF Doom, the late J Dilla, and others, and I still support some of the giants of the "golden age," like Com, De La, The Roots, Mos Def, Kweli, and PE.

At this point, I agree with Rep. Ross. Hip-hop needs a change. Hip-Hop As We KNOW It needs to die. Hip-Hop As We KNEW It needs to be resurrected.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #3 posted 09/12/07 12:34pm

namepeace

lastdecember said:

Very good article but the point is still who is putting it out, thats where the issue stems from, you have to cut the source off, thats the only way it will change, because mainly, a good % of people are gonna buy what they hear, and younger fans are gonna buy whats cool. So until radio alters its playlists and labels stop signing and promoting what they promote, you will get no change in enviroment. To sum this issue up go into a Club in NYC and hear tons of these Hip Hop Songs and look around to whos dancing to them, mainly white girls from the south here in NYC, and thinking that being "black" is saying the word "gangsta" every other word.


Yeah, I'd beg those who miss hip-hop to seek out the underground, once again. There are a bevy of great artists right below the surface who add positive voices to hip-hop. They just need to be cultivated and brought along. The success story of Common is a prime example of how increased awareness can increase demand and increase supply for positive hip-hop.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #4 posted 09/12/07 12:47pm

lastdecember

avatar

namepeace said:

lastdecember said:

Very good article but the point is still who is putting it out, thats where the issue stems from, you have to cut the source off, thats the only way it will change, because mainly, a good % of people are gonna buy what they hear, and younger fans are gonna buy whats cool. So until radio alters its playlists and labels stop signing and promoting what they promote, you will get no change in enviroment. To sum this issue up go into a Club in NYC and hear tons of these Hip Hop Songs and look around to whos dancing to them, mainly white girls from the south here in NYC, and thinking that being "black" is saying the word "gangsta" every other word.


Yeah, I'd beg those who miss hip-hop to seek out the underground, once again. There are a bevy of great artists right below the surface who add positive voices to hip-hop. They just need to be cultivated and brought along. The success story of Common is a prime example of how increased awareness can increase demand and increase supply for positive hip-hop.


Yeah i agree, im by far an expert on rap, but Common and Talib are the few that i own mainly because everything else is speaking about something i dont really wanna know about, i mean how many videos are we gonna see with the guy in the hot tub with some hot girls? Like Prince said years ago, Rap is very broad, but if you are saying "bitch this and Bitch that, you are stuck in a web that you cant get out of" and once again he was right.

"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #5 posted 09/12/07 1:13pm

MuthaFunka

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I also wonder what would happen if rap artists started talking about selling dope in the suburbs, or shooting white people or beating down white men. Would rap's comfortable white fans continue to consume it? I suspect the record companies wouldn't even sell it. Like the majority of people who buy rap music, the majority of people who get rich off it are white. That sort of thing might hit a little too close to home for hip-hop's fans and profiteers.


And there it is right there.

But the blame is 3 part:

1 - The fans: Supply and demand is what business is all about. If the demand isn't there, then there's no need for a supply. Once the consumers decide to turn that wack shit off and get into more REAL shit, that's when we will see a change.

2 - The industry: They respond to the demand. The more the demand for wack shit, the more they will be gladly to supply it.

3 - The artist: For giving in to the record companies to keep putting out wack and degrading shit.

You have to have at LEAST 2 of those 3 to change in order for Hip Hop to come back.
nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher

MuthaFunka - Black...by popular demand
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Reply #6 posted 09/12/07 2:06pm

vainandy

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I thought it was a great article but I don't think white people boycotting shit hop is going to make a difference.

First of all, the white kids who are buying the music aren't going to boycott it. They like it. That would be like someone telling me to boycott funk back in the early 1980s. Do you think I would have done it? Hell no. I would be trying to destroy something that I love. That leaves the white parents refusing to buy it for the kids. Well, some of them may not like the cuss words but, as far as the word "nigger" being used repeadly and all the negative stereotypes, the racist white parents wouldn't care. Why would they care? They're racist, that's exactly how they want black people to act. Don't think that racism doesn't exist any more and don't think that a racist white person wouldn't want their kids listening to black artists either. As long as the black artists play the part of being beneath them, they are fine with them. As far as the violence goes, they don't care either. It's not in their neighborhoods and it's not affecting their kids.

That leaves the "concerned" white parents boycotting. That's not going to make a difference either. People will make a joke out of them. Just look what happened in the mid 1980s when all those parents were pissed about rock lyrics. They did get a "parental advisory" sticker put on albums but people made of a joke of the whole thing. The "parental advisory" sticker's logo was placed on T Shirts and people wore them. It was cool getting an album that had a sticker on it. As a matter of fact, I remember being disappointed when I bought my first Prince album that didn't have the sticker on it.

I place the blame on the record labels first. There are only about three or four companies that own all the labels. With monopolies like that, they can keep out anything that can threaten shit hop's existance. If something new were to come along that was just as cheap to make as shit hop, they wouldn't mind, but if it costs any extra, they aren't interested. The music business these days is about strictly business, fuck the music.

Then I blame the companies that own all these radio stations and video channels. Those are monopolies also that can control what gets played and if anyone happens to slip through the cracks on an independent owned label with something that doesn't fit the shit hop format of being cheaply made, they can just simply see that they get no airplay. Now the corporations are starting to buy coliseums, theaters, and nightclubs also. They have all their bases covered. "We wouldn't want to threaten shit hop, would we? Hmmmmm.....now if we can just find a way to manipulate the inernet then we could just keep it alive forever."
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[Edited 9/12/07 14:16pm]
Andy is a four letter word.
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Reply #7 posted 09/12/07 2:18pm

Alasseon

avatar

vainandy said:

I thought it was a great article but I don't think white people boycotting shit hop is going to make a difference.

First of all, the white kids who are buying the music aren't going to boycott it. They like it. That would be like someone telling me to boycott funk back in the early 1980s. Do you think I would have done it? Hell no. I would be trying to destroy something that I love. That leaves the white parents refusing to buy it for the kids. Well, some of them may not like the cuss words but, as far as the word "nigger" being used repeadly and all the negative stereotypes, the racist white parents wouldn't care. Why would they care? They're racist, that's exactly how they want black people to act. Don't think that racism doesn't exist any more and don't think that a racist white person wouldn't want their kids listening to black artists either. As long as the black artists play the part of being beneath them, they are fine with them. As far as the violence goes, they don't care either. It's not in their neighborhoods and it's not affecting their kids.

That leaves the "concerned" white parents boycotting. That's not going to make a difference either. People will make a joke out of them. Just look what happened in the mid 1980s when all those parents were pissed about rock lyrics. They did get a "parental advisory" sticker put on albums but people made of a joke of the whole thing. The "parental advisory" sticker's logo was placed on T Shirts and people wore them. It was cool getting an album that had a sticker on it. As a matter of fact, I remember being disappointed when I bought my first Prince album that didn't have the sticker on it.

I place the blame on the record labels first. There are only about three or four companies that own all the labels. With monopolies like that, they can keep out anything that can threaten shit hop's existance. If something new were to come along that was just as cheap to make as shit hop, they wouldn't mind, but if it costs any extra, they aren't interested. The music business these days is about strictly business, fuck the music.

Then I blame the companies that own all these radio stations and video channels. Those are monopolies also that can control what gets played and if anyone happens to slip through the cracks on an independent owned label with something that doesn't fit the shit hop format of being cheaply made, they can just simply see that they get no airplay. Now the corporations are starting to buy coliseums, theaters, and nightclubs also. They have all their bases covered. "We wouldn't want to threaten shit hop, would we? Hmmmmm.....now if we can just find a way to manipulate the inernet then we could just keep it alive forever."
.
.
[Edited 9/12/07 14:16pm]


What I don't understand is why everyone wants to be Vanilla Ice. I'm an Ivy and this one big white kid tries SO hard with the rap lingo. He's not the only one. Contrary to what he may believe it doesn't make him look cool. It makes him look as ignorant as anyone else, black, brown, or white who dumb themselves down to be "ghetto".
batman guitar

Some people tell me I've got great legs...
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Reply #8 posted 09/12/07 2:30pm

vainandy

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Alasseon said:

What I don't understand is why everyone wants to be Vanilla Ice. I'm an Ivy and this one big white kid tries SO hard with the rap lingo. He's not the only one. Contrary to what he may believe it doesn't make him look cool. It makes him look as ignorant as anyone else, black, brown, or white who dumb themselves down to be "ghetto".


Oh, I've met some of those. They sound more stupid talking that shit than the actual rappers they are immitating.

My favorite is when they try to accuse me of being racist when I say something negative about shit hop. Then I have to set them straight and let them know that there was a whole black world that existed before shit hop. I let them know real quick...."You might be Eminem, but I'm Teena Marie bitch". lol
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[Edited 9/12/07 14:32pm]
Andy is a four letter word.
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Reply #9 posted 09/12/07 2:54pm

uPtoWnNY

vainandy said:

Alasseon said:

What I don't understand is why everyone wants to be Vanilla Ice. I'm an Ivy and this one big white kid tries SO hard with the rap lingo. He's not the only one. Contrary to what he may believe it doesn't make him look cool. It makes him look as ignorant as anyone else, black, brown, or white who dumb themselves down to be "ghetto".


Oh, I've met some of those. They sound more stupid talking that shit than the actual rappers they are immitating.


Yeah, and I find that just as insulting as someone calling me the N-word. What they're really doing is associating talking/acting ignorant with blackness. I let them know real quick that sh!t doesn't fly with me.
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Reply #10 posted 09/12/07 3:13pm

TotalAlisa

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YOu guys know its more then a rap thing.... there are things im not even going to explain to you guys.. because you would think im lying and im crazy...

but don't blame rap.... just realize this world is getting worst... do you realize that people are calling what is wrong... right... and what is right wrong.... morals and the way people think are backwards.... Let me tell you God is getting very angry.... the same way he destroyed the world with the flood (Noah's arch) he destroyed the earth because of sin.. the world at the time was how it is NOW (lots of sin)... ...


for example if you tell someone lying, stealing, gossip, having sex before marriage/fornication(thats why their are so many dieseases.. because of disobedience), unforgiveness or being gay is wrong.. PEOPLE will attack me or any others who agree... because they think backwards... calling what is evil.. right....

seriously DON'T blame rap... im not saying that rap is okay... ITS not... but thats not the big reason for why young kids and adults are more violent and degrading women....


IM sick and tired of people blaming rap... WHY don't you guys actually find out the real reason...

I already know what the problem is.... and who can solve it
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Reply #11 posted 09/12/07 4:07pm

TonyVanDam

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Great essay Namepeace.

However, there is one more reason why you and your white friends like hip-hop so much.....and it's part of the reason why I like during the 88-93 era: The Beats!!!


Drum patterns (from drum machines OR live drum kits) have always been the biggest selling point with hip-hop.

The only thing that can ruin these beats are the lyrical contents.

[Edited 9/12/07 16:08pm]
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Reply #12 posted 09/12/07 4:16pm

TonyVanDam

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uPtoWnNY said:

vainandy said:



Oh, I've met some of those. They sound more stupid talking that shit than the actual rappers they are immitating.


Yeah, and I find that just as insulting as someone calling me the N-word. What they're really doing is associating talking/acting ignorant with blackness. I let them know real quick that sh!t doesn't fly with me.


To put it bluntly, some of these white teens today are trying too hard to be "wiggas". And it does look kind of stupid to see white teens from the good homes of Beverly Hills trying to be harder and more ghetto than the Bloods or the Crips of South Central L.A. disbelief
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Reply #13 posted 09/12/07 6:47pm

namepeace

TonyVanDam said:

Great essay Namepeace.

However, there is one more reason why you and your white friends like hip-hop so much.....and it's part of the reason why I like during the 88-93 era: The Beats!!!


Drum patterns (from drum machines OR live drum kits) have always been the biggest selling point with hip-hop.

The only thing that can ruin these beats are the lyrical contents.

[Edited 9/12/07 16:08pm]


Oh, that's not my essay leading the thread. My essay is second.

And most of my white friends wouldn't know Ghostface from Casper the Friendly Ghost.

But you ARE right. It is INDEED about that beat. But when beats and rhymes are on par, there's nothing quite like it in music.

When Chuck D met "Rebel Without A Pause."

When CL Smooth met Pete Rock's "They Reminisce Over You."

When Q-Tip and Phife met "Check The Rhime."

When Afrika Bambataa landed on "Planet Rock."

and so on . . . matches made in hip-hop heaven.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #14 posted 09/12/07 6:52pm

vainandy

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TonyVanDam said:

The only thing that can ruin these beats are the lyrical contents.


Wrong! The only thing that can ruin the beats is to slow the motherfuckers down. lol
Andy is a four letter word.
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Reply #15 posted 09/12/07 6:58pm

paisleypark4

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Arent they having some meeting soon on the state of the lyrics in hip hop music? I heard what's her face say that on 106 & park.
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Reply #16 posted 09/12/07 7:06pm

namepeace

TonyVanDam said:

uPtoWnNY said:



Yeah, and I find that just as insulting as someone calling me the N-word. What they're really doing is associating talking/acting ignorant with blackness. I let them know real quick that sh!t doesn't fly with me.


To put it bluntly, some of these white teens today are trying too hard to be "wiggas". And it does look kind of stupid to see white teens from the good homes of Beverly Hills trying to be harder and more ghetto than the Bloods or the Crips of South Central L.A. disbelief


But, as with the leather jackets of the 50's, the tie-dye of the 60's, the bell bottoms of the 70's and the lace shirts and makeup in the 80's, they can lay them aside when it's time to "grow up."
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #17 posted 09/12/07 7:08pm

Najee

I said some of the same things on another thread, namepeace, so if you don't mind if I repeat a few thoughts.

The style of hip-hop you hear today has not changed stylistically since at least the mid-1990s -- for that matter, that includes soul music. I cannot point to another period in contemporary black popular music where the styles have been the same for 14 plus-years. Even when it comes to contemporary fashion surrounding the hip-hop culture, the same baggy-pants, basektball-jersey-wearing style has been around for 20 years.

It's like black pop culture has been in a time warp since the late 1980s. It's ironic some people will call me a "fuddy-duddy" when in fact the music and clothing style they like is the same stuff that was around when I was a teen-ager (and I'll be 40 next year).

[Edited 9/12/07 19:10pm]
THE TRAFFIC JAMMERS, The Org's house band: VAINANDY -- lead singer; NAJEE -- bass; THE AUDIENCE -- guitar; PHUNKDADDY -- rhythm guitar; ALEX de PARIS -- keyboards; Da PRETTYMAN -- keyboards; FUNKENSTEIN -- drums. HOLD ON TO YOUR DRAWERS!
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Reply #18 posted 09/12/07 7:27pm

vainandy

avatar

Najee said:

I said some of the same things on another thread, namepeace, so if you don't mind if I repeat a few thoughts.

The style of hip-hop you hear today has not changed stylistically since at least the mid-1990s -- for that matter, that includes soul music. I cannot point to another period in contemporary black popular music where the styles have been the same for 14 plus-years. Even when it comes to contemporary fashion surrounding the hip-hop culture, the same baggy-pants, basektball-jersey-wearing style has been around for 20 years.

It's like black pop culture has been in a time warp since the late 1980s. It's ironic some people will call me a "fuddy-duddy" when in fact the music and clothing style they like is the same stuff that was around when I was a teen-ager (and I'll be 40 next year).

[Edited 9/12/07 19:10pm]


It's because people see that they can cash in on making the cheapest thing possible and now they have an audience that isn't going to complain about it because they either don't realize it or don't care. Just turn on a drum machine, sample an old record, push some buttons on a computer, and get a rapper to talk over it. There's not nearly as much involved as getting a gang of musicians together with all their instruments. Not to mention getting a gang of creative musicians together who have a passion for their craft who are going to want to do things their way and are going to fight or question changes. Get an unknown rapper in there and he doesn't like it, hey, they just throw him out and replace him with another one.

As for the clothes, jeans and T shirts are probably the cheapest things to make and it takes no creativity to come up with a new style or design. Just get a rapper to endorse a cheap pair of everyday ordinary jeans, slap a new label on them, and place a Beverly Hills price tag on a Walmart product.
Andy is a four letter word.
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Reply #19 posted 09/12/07 7:40pm

Bishop31

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vainandy said:



It's because people see that they can cash in on making the cheapest thing possible and now they have an audience that isn't going to complain about it because they either don't realize it or don't care. Just turn on a drum machine, sample an old record, push some buttons on a computer, and get a rapper to talk over it. There's not nearly as much involved as getting a gang of musicians together with all their instruments. Not to mention getting a gang of creative musicians together who have a passion for their craft who are going to want to do things their way and are going to fight or question changes. Get an unknown rapper in there and he doesn't like it, hey, they just throw him out and replace him with another one.

As for the clothes, jeans and T shirts are probably the cheapest things to make and it takes no creativity to come up with a new style or design. Just get a rapper to endorse a cheap pair of everyday ordinary jeans, slap a new label on them, and place a Beverly Hills price tag on a Walmart product.


So true. Both of ur points. confused
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Reply #20 posted 09/12/07 8:26pm

namepeace

Najee said:

I said some of the same things on another thread, namepeace, so if you don't mind if I repeat a few thoughts.

The style of hip-hop you hear today has not changed stylistically since at least the mid-1990s -- for that matter, that includes soul music. I cannot point to another period in contemporary black popular music where the styles have been the same for 14 plus-years. Even when it comes to contemporary fashion surrounding the hip-hop culture, the same baggy-pants, basektball-jersey-wearing style has been around for 20 years.

It's like black pop culture has been in a time warp since the late 1980s. It's ironic some people will call me a "fuddy-duddy" when in fact the music and clothing style they like is the same stuff that was around when I was a teen-ager (and I'll be 40 next year).

[Edited 9/12/07 19:10pm]


We might disagree on the other issue, but here we are in full and complete agreement.

Well said.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #21 posted 09/12/07 8:30pm

namepeace

vainandy said:



It's because people see that they can cash in on making the cheapest thing possible and now they have an audience that isn't going to complain about it because they either don't realize it or don't care. Just turn on a drum machine, sample an old record, push some buttons on a computer, and get a rapper to talk over it. There's not nearly as much involved as getting a gang of musicians together with all their instruments. Not to mention getting a gang of creative musicians together who have a passion for their craft who are going to want to do things their way and are going to fight or question changes. Get an unknown rapper in there and he doesn't like it, hey, they just throw him out and replace him with another one.

As for the clothes, jeans and T shirts are probably the cheapest things to make and it takes no creativity to come up with a new style or design. Just get a rapper to endorse a cheap pair of everyday ordinary jeans, slap a new label on them, and place a Beverly Hills price tag on a Walmart product.


And again, we agree here.

At least in my generation, our tastes were "informed" by the music we grew up on (the 60's and 70's) and the music we came of age to (the 80's). In contrast, as Najee said, the paradigm hasn't shifted, and as a result today's kids have absolutely no frame of reference.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #22 posted 09/12/07 8:37pm

theAudience

avatar

Great article.
Thanks for posting it namepeace.

Thank God for the past musically.


tA

peace Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431
"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all."
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Reply #23 posted 09/12/07 8:41pm

namepeace

TotalAlisa said:
but don't blame rap.... just realize this world is getting worst... do you realize that people are calling what is wrong... right... and what is right wrong.... morals and the way people think are backwards.... Let me tell you God is getting very angry.... the same way he destroyed the world with the flood (Noah's arch) he destroyed the earth because of sin.. the world at the time was how it is NOW (lots of sin)... ...


Hip=hop, such as it is, is not the root cause of sin, evil and suffering in our society. But it long ago ceased being a reflection of the ills of our society and became a facilitator.

And, by the way, God loves us and His door is always open.

for example if you tell someone lying, stealing, gossip, having sex before marriage/fornication(thats why their are so many dieseases.. because of disobedience), unforgiveness or being gay is wrong.. PEOPLE will attack me or any others who agree... because they think backwards... calling what is evil.. right....

seriously DON'T blame rap... im not saying that rap is okay... ITS not... but thats not the big reason for why young kids and adults are more violent and degrading women....


IM sick and tired of people blaming rap... WHY don't you guys actually find out the real reason...

I already know what the problem is.... and who can solve it


See above. This is a whole 'nother convo, friend.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #24 posted 09/13/07 5:38am

Najee

vainandy said:

As for the clothes, jeans and T shirts are probably the cheapest things to make and it takes no creativity to come up with a new style or design. Just get a rapper to endorse a cheap pair of everyday ordinary jeans, slap a new label on them, and place a Beverly Hills price tag on a Walmart product.


It's not the product themselves, but the style of wearing the product that I'm discussing. The baggy-pants, two-sizes-too-big style was the same thing people were wearing 20 years ago. The same with the sports jerseys, the hats and the jewelry -- with most trendy styles, they run their course within five years.

IMO, since that form of wearing clothes is so associated with the hip-hop culture, it exemplifies how stagnant it is. To give you an analogy, you didn't see clothing styles in the 1970s staying fashionable for the next 20 years. For example, I wasn't wearing the same huge Afro, bell-bottom pants and stack boots in 1989 that was in style in 1974.

We're also not talking about a style that was fasionable, then considered outdated for a long time and then modified with a more contemporary twist (Afros, boot-cut pants, chunky boots). We're talking about a fashion statement that literally has been the same for some two decades with virtually no changes.

[Edited 9/13/07 7:02am]
THE TRAFFIC JAMMERS, The Org's house band: VAINANDY -- lead singer; NAJEE -- bass; THE AUDIENCE -- guitar; PHUNKDADDY -- rhythm guitar; ALEX de PARIS -- keyboards; Da PRETTYMAN -- keyboards; FUNKENSTEIN -- drums. HOLD ON TO YOUR DRAWERS!
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Reply #25 posted 09/13/07 6:47am

namepeace

Najee said:

We're also not talking about a style that was fasionanle, then considered outdated for a long time and then modified with a more contemporary twist (Afros, boot-cut pants, chunky boots). We're talking about a fashion statement that literally has been the same for some two decades with virtually no changes.
[Edited 9/13/07 6:14am]


It's like McDonald's. When you find a product that's cheap to make, and cheap to market, you can use the same business model for decades as long as the demand is high.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #26 posted 09/13/07 6:51am

vainandy

avatar

Najee said:

vainandy said:

As for the clothes, jeans and T shirts are probably the cheapest things to make and it takes no creativity to come up with a new style or design. Just get a rapper to endorse a cheap pair of everyday ordinary jeans, slap a new label on them, and place a Beverly Hills price tag on a Walmart product.


It's not the product themselves, but the style of wearing the product that I'm discussing. The baggy-pants, two-sizes-too-big style was the same thing people were wearing 20 years ago. The same with the sports jerseys, the hats and the jewelry -- with most trendy styles, they run their course within five years.

IMO, since that form of wearing clothes is so associated with the hip-hop culture, it exemplifies how stagnant it is. To give you an analogy, you didn't see clothing styles in the 1970s staying fashionable for the next 20 years. For example, I wasn't wearing the same huge Afro, bell-bottom pants and stack boots in 1989 that was in style in 1974.

We're also not talking about a style that was fasionanle, then considered outdated for a long time and then modified with a more contemporary twist (Afros, boot-cut pants, chunky boots). We're talking about a fashion statement that literally has been the same for some two decades with virtually no changes.

[Edited 9/13/07 6:14am]


Oh, I understand fully what you are saying and I fully agree. I've noticed the same thing myself. I was simply commenting on how it takes no imagination, creativity, or expensive materials to make jeans and T shirts. It's not surprising though because the music that inspires these fashions is cut from the same cloth.....cheap, no imagination, and no creativity.
Andy is a four letter word.
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Reply #27 posted 09/13/07 7:08am

Najee

namepeace said:

It's like McDonald's. When you find a product that's cheap to make, and cheap to market, you can use the same business model for decades as long as the demand is high.


That's the thing I find peculiar, because when it comes to pop culture and fashion for better or for worse black Americans historically have been regarded as fashion-forward (and at times TOO fashion-forward). It's odd to me that if I put a Dominique Wilkins jersey and some baggy pants in storage in 1988, pulled them out and wore them in public today no one would laugh at me, a la Antonio Fargas in "I'm Gonna Git You, Sucka."
[Edited 9/13/07 7:09am]
THE TRAFFIC JAMMERS, The Org's house band: VAINANDY -- lead singer; NAJEE -- bass; THE AUDIENCE -- guitar; PHUNKDADDY -- rhythm guitar; ALEX de PARIS -- keyboards; Da PRETTYMAN -- keyboards; FUNKENSTEIN -- drums. HOLD ON TO YOUR DRAWERS!
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Reply #28 posted 09/13/07 7:21am

Najee

Another outtake from another thread:

People 20 years old or younger have no concept of musical progression, because they have been listening to the same music essentially all their lives.

Here is another example: Take a long-standing artist like Marvin Gaye. If you played some of his late 1960s music and then some of his mid-1970s stuff and his "Sexual Healing"/"Sanctified Lady" music and it's dramatically different in style, music and production. You can tell there has been progression -- stuff like "I Heard It to the Grapevine" sounds comparatively dated next to even "I Want Her," much less "Sexual Healing." And that's over, what, a 15-year period between those songs.

Conversely, we've heard Mtume's "Juicy Fruit" used as the basis of a rap song in the 1980s (Wreckx-N-Effect), the 1990s (The Notorious B.I.G) and today (Kellis). For that matter, someone like R. Kelly's music is not different from anything he's made since 1993's "12 Play." It's not dated compared to his current stuff -- not because of some intrinsic timeless element from songs like "Sex Me" and "Bump and Grind" as much as there has been no musical progression in the black contemporary pop music scene since the mid-1990s.
THE TRAFFIC JAMMERS, The Org's house band: VAINANDY -- lead singer; NAJEE -- bass; THE AUDIENCE -- guitar; PHUNKDADDY -- rhythm guitar; ALEX de PARIS -- keyboards; Da PRETTYMAN -- keyboards; FUNKENSTEIN -- drums. HOLD ON TO YOUR DRAWERS!
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Reply #29 posted 09/13/07 7:21am

namepeace

Najee said:

namepeace said:

It's like McDonald's. When you find a product that's cheap to make, and cheap to market, you can use the same business model for decades as long as the demand is high.


That's the thing I find peculiar, because when it comes to pop culture and fashion for better or for worse black Americans historically have been regarded as fashion-forward (and at times TOO fashion-forward). It's odd to me that if I put a Dominique Wilkins jersey and some baggy pants in storage in 1988, pulled them out and wore them in public today no one would laugh at me, a la Antonio Fargas in "I'm Gonna Git You, Sucka."
[Edited 9/13/07 7:09am]


Hilarious. You know, the b-boy style is making a bit of a comeback. You'd get good money for that Wilkins' jersey, and if you had the Top 10's or Nike Airs to match, you'd get even more.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Forums > Music: Non-Prince > The Rap's On . . . Us? Article and Comment on the state of hip-hop