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ShellyMcG said: RODSERLING said: First the background vocals were not reworked from the demos the producers gave to MJ. Consequently it lacks that "Jackson sound". In the Jerkins productions, MJ did the background vocals, but it was mixed with those of Lashawn Daniels. To me, it kills most of the fun and interest listening to an MJ album, if somebody else do the background vocals. Butterflies, Breaf Of Dawn and Heaven Can Wait are the most blatant examples. These are taken apart great songs, with great MJ lead vocals. But the background in the chorus are from somebody else's voices, and it gives an impression of a constant duet between MJ and " the unknown rnb singer of the day". What a shame these great songs weren't recorded by MJ the same way he recorded his previous albums ! Now, let s take some clunkers : this is so obviously not him singing the chorus in Don't Walk Away. That song could have been acceptable if it was written solely by MJ and sang by himself, and not written by four people, with the chorus/climax of the song sang by another unknown rnb singer. It s like MJ hadn't the time to recorded his voice over the singer demo. MJ can write solely Speechless, but such a random song needs officially four writers in the room ? What was the point of this? Privacy cumulates writing and recording problems, not fixed by lack of time, - - - aggressive harmony vocals from Daniels - MJ calls for Slash, but they couldn't reach him on time (?) so he is replaced by a completely random guy ( not Prince, not Clapton) but a Michael Thompson, an obscure studio guitarist. - The song ends abruptly, after being stretched to death with like two minutes of terrible "yeah yeah" - the song was supposed to be about Lady Diana death. Well, who wrote " in that cold winter night", since she died on a summer ? Wasn't " on that cold summer night" more appropriated ? And on, and on, and on... And beyond the album, MJ struggle to reunite a creative team to do new and exciting music video. He really didn't know what to do anymore, and had come up with YRMW because he was forced to do something fast. Or else, he would still be working on it [Edited 3/11/24 21:28pm] 
[Edited 3/11/24 21:30pm] I didn't know any of that. I knew that it wasn't MJ himself on the background vocals for a lot of songs but I assumed that was a conscious decision. The only real negative about that album for me, and it's a pretty big one, is that there are too many ballads. I think I can count on one hand the amount of Michael Jackson ballads that I actually like. I don't think they were his strong suit. Break Of Dawn being maybe the only one on Invincible I can listen to. Beside YRMW, Whatever Happens and Speechless there weren't real intemporal great songs. There s no Black Or White, Billie Jean, Beat It, They Don't Care About Us...all that were penned by MJ himself. Not only he didn't do the background vocals as before ( and that was really his trademark with other famous gimmick vocals also not present on this album), but he also didn't write many songs himself. MJ was his best hitmaker, IIRC, 9 oemr 10 out of his US #1s were written solely by him. So that was a mistake to record an album by just waiting that some producers, mostly beatmakers than melody makers, give him some good songs He should have had more confidence in his own material, might as well reworking it with a currebt hitmaker. I think about a Sunset Driver produced by Jerkins for instance. That would have worked better than what we ve got. It would have been, uptempo, fun, fresh and cool. Not Unbreakable at all ! That would have been what the audience expected from MJ. Apparently, MJ made Jerkins remix Cheater to include it on Invincible. So somehow, he must have not been satisfied with the result. [Edited 3/12/24 5:58am] |
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RODSERLING said: ShellyMcG said: I didn't know any of that. I knew that it wasn't MJ himself on the background vocals for a lot of songs but I assumed that was a conscious decision. The only real negative about that album for me, and it's a pretty big one, is that there are too many ballads. I think I can count on one hand the amount of Michael Jackson ballads that I actually like. I don't think they were his strong suit. Break Of Dawn being maybe the only one on Invincible I can listen to. Beside YRMW, Whatever Happens and Speechless there weren't real intemporal great songs. There s no Black Or White, Billie Jean, Beat It, They Don't Care About Us...all that were penned by MJ himself. Not only he didn't do the background vocals as before ( and that was really his trademark with other famous gimmick vocals also not present on this album), but he also didn't write many songs himself. MJ was his best hitmaker, IIRC, 9 oemr 10 out of his US #1s were written solely by him. So that was a mistake to record an album by just waiting that some producers, mostly beatmakers than melody makers, give him some good songs He should have had more confidence in his own material, might as well reworking it with a currebt hitmaker. I think about a Sunset Driver produced by Jerkins for instance. That would have worked better than what we ve got. It would have been, uptempo, fun, fresh and cool. Not Unbreakable at all ! That would have been what the audience expected from MJ. Apparently, MJ made Jerkins remix Cheater to include it on Invincible. So somehow, he must have not been satisfied with the result. [Edited 3/12/24 5:58am] Do any of these unreleased recordings from Invincible exist? I've heard a few that were barely more than demos like Hollywood Tonight and a few others and I just wonder if any of these other songs will ever see the light of day. I'd rather hear the unfinished demos than whatever they did with those posthumous albums. That's also something I hope the Prince estate is aware of. Unreleased demos are more valuable to a fanbase than remixes done by someone else after the artist has passed. | |
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ShellyMcG said: RODSERLING said: Beside YRMW, Whatever Happens and Speechless there weren't real intemporal great songs. There s no Black Or White, Billie Jean, Beat It, They Don't Care About Us...all that were penned by MJ himself. Not only he didn't do the background vocals as before ( and that was really his trademark with other famous gimmick vocals also not present on this album), but he also didn't write many songs himself. MJ was his best hitmaker, IIRC, 9 oemr 10 out of his US #1s were written solely by him. So that was a mistake to record an album by just waiting that some producers, mostly beatmakers than melody makers, give him some good songs He should have had more confidence in his own material, might as well reworking it with a currebt hitmaker. I think about a Sunset Driver produced by Jerkins for instance. That would have worked better than what we ve got. It would have been, uptempo, fun, fresh and cool. Not Unbreakable at all ! That would have been what the audience expected from MJ. Apparently, MJ made Jerkins remix Cheater to include it on Invincible. So somehow, he must have not been satisfied with the result. [Edited 3/12/24 5:58am] Do any of these unreleased recordings from Invincible exist? I've heard a few that were barely more than demos like Hollywood Tonight and a few others and I just wonder if any of these other songs will ever see the light of day. I'd rather hear the unfinished demos than whatever they did with those posthumous albums. That's also something I hope the Prince estate is aware of. Unreleased demos are more valuable to a fanbase than remixes done by someone else after the artist has passed. Among the songs Jerkins did with MJ, there is Can't Get Your Weight Of Off Me, that were rumoured for more than 20 years to be a potential hit. It leaked just a few months ago : https://youtu.be/guJDKMdP...6zqNfJwnZZ Not extraordinary, but still a better idea than Privacy. And it s a little more bit like what you would expect from an MJ song. The problem with that song, and all these Jerkins tracks on Invincible ( minus YRMW), such as Unbreak, Heartbreaker, Invincible, Privacy, Threatened, is that it s too heavy, it drags too much, a lot of loud sound but without a real melody. It s supposed to be uptempos but it s in fact slow, repetitive, and you can't really dance to it. That's why, I don't know the hell how MJ could think these songs could be hits, and could make him comeback successfully. |
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RODSERLING said: ShellyMcG said: Do any of these unreleased recordings from Invincible exist? I've heard a few that were barely more than demos like Hollywood Tonight and a few others and I just wonder if any of these other songs will ever see the light of day. I'd rather hear the unfinished demos than whatever they did with those posthumous albums. That's also something I hope the Prince estate is aware of. Unreleased demos are more valuable to a fanbase than remixes done by someone else after the artist has passed. Among the songs Jerkins did with MJ, there is Can't Get Your Weight Of Off Me, that were rumoured for more than 20 years to be a potential hit. It leaked just a few months ago : https://youtu.be/guJDKMdP...6zqNfJwnZZ Not extraordinary, but still a better idea than Privacy. And it s a little more bit like what you would expect from an MJ song. The problem with that song, and all these Jerkins tracks on Invincible ( minus YRMW), such as Unbreak, Heartbreaker, Invincible, Privacy, Threatened, is that it s too heavy, it drags too much, a lot of loud sound but without a real melody. It s supposed to be uptempos but it s in fact slow, repetitive, and you can't really dance to it. That's why, I don't know the hell how MJ could think these songs could be hits, and could make him comeback successfully. I like all those songs you mentioned  . I mean, fair enough, I don't really remember what was in the charts around the time Invincible released. I was like 10 or something so my interests where elsewhere. But is it possible that MJ thought that time had moved on since his heyday and that he was looking to release something a bit different so he could appeal to a younger demographic who were into NSYNC or whatever? Also, I'm aware that we're kind of turning this into a full on Michael Jackson thread despite it being in the Prince Music & More section so just to add a bit of purple into the equation, Prince also had a bit of a departure from his usual stuff in 2001 with The Rainbow Children. I'm sure it's 100% coincidental but it's kind of interesting to me that perhaps the two biggest artists of the previous generation both released albums in 2001 that were big departures from their previous albums. I definitely get the impression that MJ was looking for chart success but I think Prince was going in the opposite direction. | |
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When Invincible hit Timbaland and Dr. Dre were the big producers. Dr. Dre rejected MJ, and MJ found Dollar Store Dollar Menu "we got Timbaland at home" in Rodney Jergens (e.g., look at "Heartbreaker" being basically a bootleg remix of Ginuwine's "Pony"). That's pretty much it. [Edited 3/12/24 21:27pm] |
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You broze right past the Madge collab reference, though. [Edited 3/12/24 22:12pm] |
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Prince didn't ever meet people in the middle, though. It's why it would have never worked, because finding a happy medium between the two wasn't going to happen. MJ could agree to mime vocals to a song written/produced/arranged/recorded by Prince, or he could kick rocks. Prince only provides two options. Even the Madonna "collab" is clearly just her submitting to playing the Prince protege role for one album cut.
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Like what is this fantasy 50/50 collab people envision.
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WhisperingDandelions said:
You broze right past the Madge collab reference, though. [Edited 3/12/24 22:12pm] I love Madonna's 80s work but in terms of actual talent, she's a very distant third when compared to MJ and Prince. She was a major star but I don't consider her in the same league as the likes of MJ, Prince, Springsteen etc. | |
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WhisperingDandelions said:
Prince didn't ever meet people in the middle, though. It's why it would have never worked, because finding a happy medium between the two wasn't going to happen. MJ could agree to mime vocals to a song written/produced/arranged/recorded by Prince, or he could kick rocks. Prince only provides two options. Even the Madonna "collab" is clearly just her submitting to playing the Prince protege role for one album cut.
I think there's some confusion here about what I was saying. I know all the reasons why it didn't happen. I know Prince would never allow himself to play second fiddle to Michael Jackson. I know Michael Jackson probably didn't consider Prince to be on his level. I know all that. What I'm saying is that it would have been nice had they both left their ego at the door and actually collaborated on a project together. It doesn't have to be a 50/50 kind of deal. MJ could take a step back and let Prince work his magic when it comes to composition, instrumentation etc. Prince could in turn take on the role of a Quincy Jones and let MJ do his thing and take on board any input MJ has to offer. It's purely hypothetical though. | |
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Reminds of the time Lennon and Bowie met. They didn't say a word for 30 mins and ended up drawing each other. Rock and roll sure sounds fun. Ditto Prince. The world's problems like climate change can only be solved through strategic long-term thinking, not expediency. In other words all the govts. need sacking!
If you can add value to someone's life then why not. Especially if it colors their days... | |
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