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Reply #60 posted 07/08/18 10:47am

SkipperLove

here is the interview...he never said Prince was "fuck"ing with him. He said that Prince started to want the actors to be adherent to the script so he knew when he heard the heels that they were going to shoot take after take. The dude was professional.

Prince in Time Out

poppys said:

PeteSilas said:


it's funny but stephen berkoff, a professional actor said that Prince directed well. He also described him as pretty demanding with the script, wanting every word in and that the sound of Prince's heels began to get on his nerves because he knew it was him coming over to fuck with him.

lol Great story Pete. heart

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Reply #61 posted 07/08/18 10:56am

SkipperLove

Too sophisticated? Can't agree at all. It is not at all a sophisticated script. I always took his performance as comical.. the romance scenes seemed hard for him but i don't think it was because they were too sophisticated but because they weren't written well enough to make sense in such a silly movie and because he would not take his damn lace off and kiss like a normal person..LOL.. The rest he seemed to coast through on silliness because it was silly. The movie would have been ten times better if it had stayed that way.

violetcrush said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

I actually find the character incredibly annoying for the most part!

It was just a bit over-the-top, and amateur acting. The storyline was too sophisticated for Prince's acting ability. Here is how Prince responded during an AOL online interview with fans when asked about the film:

*

Question: What inspired your storyline in your film “Under the Cherry Moon” ? My wife and I consider it our favorite.
TheArtist: that film went thru many drafts..much was lost in the shuffle
TheArtist: ..but i must admit..
TheArtist: there r some very funny scenes..
TheArtist: it was inspired by the comedies..
TheArtist: of the 4ties

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Reply #62 posted 07/08/18 11:25am

PeteSilas

yup, those are the words, i always assumed it was Dave Hill who interviewed him for his book, it looks like he took everything from this article.

SkipperLove said:

here is the interview...he never said Prince was "fuck"ing with him. He said that Prince started to want the actors to be adherent to the script so he knew when he heard the heels that they were going to shoot take after take. The dude was professional.

Prince in Time Out

poppys said:

lol Great story Pete. heart

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #63 posted 07/08/18 11:27am

PeteSilas

SkipperLove said:

I disagree. I think Clarence Williams III is the best. Jerome Benton has great comic instincts but his crying scene in UTCM when Tracy dies is really bad.

PeteSilas said:

i thought jerome benton was the best actor by far out of the whole pr,utcm crew.

of course, you're right, sorry, i guess i should have specified, of the minneapolis non-actors he was the best. clarence is top notch.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #64 posted 07/08/18 12:06pm

violetcrush

SkipperLove said:

I think he and the character are funny. Go Figure.

herb4 said:

I hope not because that character is smug, arrogant, off putting and totally insufferable - even by Prince's standards. I loathe UTCM with a passion and find it stupid, unfunny and patently ridiculous. It's not even interesting enough to be "good in a bad way" like GB is in the tradition of Mystery Science Theater and "bad movies are fun". UTCM is just ebarrasingly bad and it's protagonist is completely unlikable.

We're meant to find this narccisitic, egocentric, mysoganistic, unfunny, boorish, vampy, preening goofball hip, cool, romantic and sympathetic somehow? At least in PR, even though The Kid shared a lot of those traits, we were shown his abusive home life, why he was the way he was and his struggle to break free of that pattern. With Christopher, there's no arc, and we're automatically supposed to identify with him simply by virtue of him being Prince and him being just sooooo cooolllll and unlike those "uptight white squares", even though he acts like a total asshole throughout the whole film.

God, what a shitty film and terrible character.

I think Prince was going for a very exaggerated depiction of this character, and I think in his mind, the character's loathsome qualities are the reason he ended the film by killing him off. But yes, many aspects of his acting out this character are a bit annoying, and the love scenes are truly cringe-worthy and unconvincing. Suannah Melvoin stated in a more recent interview that being replaced was blessing in disguise at the time smile

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Reply #65 posted 07/08/18 12:13pm

violetcrush

SkipperLove said:

Too sophisticated? Can't agree at all. It is not at all a sophisticated script. I always took his performance as comical.. the romance scenes seemed hard for him but i don't think it was because they were too sophisticated but because they weren't written well enough to make sense in such a silly movie and because he would not take his damn lace off and kiss like a normal person..LOL.. The rest he seemed to coast through on silliness because it was silly. The movie would have been ten times better if it had stayed that way.

violetcrush said:

It was just a bit over-the-top, and amateur acting. The storyline was too sophisticated for Prince's acting ability. Here is how Prince responded during an AOL online interview with fans when asked about the film:

*

Question: What inspired your storyline in your film “Under the Cherry Moon” ? My wife and I consider it our favorite.
TheArtist: that film went thru many drafts..much was lost in the shuffle
TheArtist: ..but i must admit..
TheArtist: there r some very funny scenes..
TheArtist: it was inspired by the comedies..
TheArtist: of the 4ties

What I meant by "sophisticated" was Prince's ability to make the comedic scenes truly funny, the romantic scenes truly romantic, and/or the sad scenes truly sad in terms of appealling to a wide audience. I think his lack of training and/or skill as an actor was the biggest downfall - and some of the script too.

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Reply #66 posted 07/08/18 12:14pm

PeteSilas

violetcrush said:

SkipperLove said:

I think he and the character are funny. Go Figure.

I think Prince was going for a very exaggerated depiction of this character, and I think in his mind, the character's loathsome qualities are the reason he ended the film by killing him off. But yes, many aspects of his acting out this character are a bit annoying, and the love scenes are truly cringe-worthy and unconvincing. Suannah Melvoin stated in a more recent interview that being replaced was blessing in disguise at the time smile

as big as a P fan as i was, some of those scenes, yes, they are embarrassing, plain embarrassing, his ego got the better of him in those years, it happens to everyone who gets that kind of fame though. I was just as embarrassed by that phoney assed mtv interview which his pretentiously responded to questions which were fed to him beforehand and mugged throughout it, embarrassing, i'm sure he was embarrassed by it as he got older. the one thing i'll say about the GB character, he was way more likeable than christopher. I still maintain prince had potential as a filmaker, he just didn't know how to listen to anyone.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #67 posted 07/08/18 12:22pm

violetcrush

SkipperLove said:

here is the interview...he never said Prince was "fuck"ing with him. He said that Prince started to want the actors to be adherent to the script so he knew when he heard the heels that they were going to shoot take after take. The dude was professional.

Prince in Time Out

poppys said:

lol Great story Pete. heart

Where did you find that??! Well, he did say "the tapping of the feet becomes my torture..." I'd say that could roughly tranlsate to "fucking with him" smile

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Reply #68 posted 07/08/18 12:25pm

herb4

avatar

SkipperLove said:

Too sophisticated? Can't agree at all. It is not at all a sophisticated script.

violetcrush said:

It was just a bit over-the-top, and amateur acting. The storyline was too sophisticated for Prince's acting ability. Here is how Prince responded during an AOL online interview with fans when asked about the film:

*

Question: What inspired your storyline in your film “Under the Cherry Moon” ? My wife and I consider it our favorite.
TheArtist: that film went thru many drafts..much was lost in the shuffle
TheArtist: ..but i must admit..
TheArtist: there r some very funny scenes..
TheArtist: it was inspired by the comedies..
TheArtist: of the 4ties


Yeah, UTCM has a LOT of issues but "being too sophisticated' sure as shit isn't one of them. The movie is a joke - and an unfunny one at that.

Some of the direction and cinematography are OK but the acting is wooden, stilted and the "Sick burns" and pnchlines never land. The "plot" is simply dumb as hell. The story beats and "comedic" elements are dead on arrival and make no fucking sense at all. "Bela Lugosi Eyes?" "Wrecka Stow?" "Chastity Belt" and "Birthday Suit" jokes? Ugh. A hidden cave grotto that apparently has its own resident candle lighting staff?

Movie is dumb as shit. In what world does this film take place? The parts that are supposed to be dramatic and deep are corny and ham fisted. Funny comedies of the 40's are The Marx Brothers (well, the 30's actually). Which of these 40's comedies is this film trying to emulate or pay homage to exactly? Cause I don't get it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...ican_films

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Reply #69 posted 07/08/18 12:30pm

violetcrush

PeteSilas said:

violetcrush said:

I think Prince was going for a very exaggerated depiction of this character, and I think in his mind, the character's loathsome qualities are the reason he ended the film by killing him off. But yes, many aspects of his acting out this character are a bit annoying, and the love scenes are truly cringe-worthy and unconvincing. Suannah Melvoin stated in a more recent interview that being replaced was blessing in disguise at the time smile

as big as a P fan as i was, some of those scenes, yes, they are embarrassing, plain embarrassing, his ego got the better of him in those years, it happens to everyone who gets that kind of fame though. I was just as embarrassed by that phoney assed mtv interview which his pretentiously responded to questions which were fed to him beforehand and mugged throughout it, embarrassing, i'm sure he was embarrassed by it as he got older. the one thing i'll say about the GB character, he was way more likeable than christopher. I still maintain prince had potential as a filmaker, he just didn't know how to listen to anyone.

Yes, the MTV interview was somewhat cringe-worthy too. However, he did say " I pray to God every night, and I don't ask for much, I usually just say thank you". I thought that was sweet. But yes, the rest of it came off as a guy who was very full of himself.

*

I agree that his lack of further film success can be attributed to his need to have complete control over every aspect of the work. Success is often a result of collaboration, and willingness to make changes based on other ideas. Seems he did not have the ability to do that.

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Reply #70 posted 07/08/18 12:34pm

PeteSilas

ya, i didn't say i directly quoted anything, did I? I can't remember verbatim all the time.

violetcrush said:

SkipperLove said:

here is the interview...he never said Prince was "fuck"ing with him. He said that Prince started to want the actors to be adherent to the script so he knew when he heard the heels that they were going to shoot take after take. The dude was professional.

Prince in Time Out

Where did you find that??! Well, he did say "the tapping of the feet becomes my torture..." I'd say that could roughly tranlsate to "fucking with him" smile

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #71 posted 07/08/18 12:53pm

violetcrush

PeteSilas said:

SkipperLove said:

I disagree. I think Clarence Williams III is the best. Jerome Benton has great comic instincts but his crying scene in UTCM when Tracy dies is really bad.

of course, you're right, sorry, i guess i should have specified, of the minneapolis non-actors he was the best. clarence is top notch.

Right. Pete, I agreed about Jerome, as I figured you were just referring to the MN "non actors" in the film....

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Reply #72 posted 07/08/18 9:23pm

CatB

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Is the character of Christopher Tracey a VERY accurate portrayal of Prince?!



Um, no. What you see in Graffiti Bridge, that was Prince.



"Time is space spent with U"
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Reply #73 posted 07/09/18 6:11am

PURPLEIZED3121

CatB said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Is the character of Christopher Tracey a VERY accurate portrayal of Prince?!



Um, no. What you see in Graffiti Bridge, that was Prince.



he was a combination of all 3 of his movie characters. Although The Kid in P.Rain & GB are the same GB Kid had grown spiritually.

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Reply #74 posted 07/09/18 11:52am

violetcrush

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

CatB said:



Um, no. What you see in Graffiti Bridge, that was Prince.



he was a combination of all 3 of his movie characters. Although The Kid in P.Rain & GB are the same GB Kid had grown spiritually.

Agreed! He was a mix of all characters, and they were based on what was happening in his life at that particular time. Although, I do remember an interview he did (might have been the big 1985 RS interview) where he was talking about his feelings on God, and how he had had an "experience" during the Dirty Mind tour. He said, "I'm going to make a movie about it - not the next one, but the one after that". So, it would seem that all of these "characters" were really within him at the same time.

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Reply #75 posted 07/09/18 11:54am

violetcrush

violetcrush said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

he was a combination of all 3 of his movie characters. Although The Kid in P.Rain & GB are the same GB Kid had grown spiritually.

Agreed! He was a mix of all characters, and they were based on what was happening in his life at that particular time. Although, I do remember an interview he did (might have been the big 1985 RS interview) where he was talking about his feelings on God, and how he had had an "experience" during the Dirty Mind tour. He said, "I'm going to make a movie about it - not the next one, but the one after that". So, it would seem that all of these "characters" were really within him at the same time.

From the 1985 Rolling Stone interview:

*

When you talk abut God, which God are you talking about? The Christian God? Jewish? Buddhist? Is there any God in particular you have in mind?

Yes, very much so. A while back, I had an experience that changed me and made me feel differently about how and what and how I acted toward people. I’m going to make a film about it—not the next one, but the one after that. I’ve wanted to make it for three years now. Don’t get me wrong—I’m still as wild as I was. I’m just funneling it in a different direction. And now I analyze things so much that sometimes I can’t shut off my brain and it hurts. That’s what the movie will be about.

What was the experience that changed you?

I don’t really want to get into it specifically. During the Dirty Mind period, I would go into fits of depression and get physically ill. I would have to call people to help get me out of it. I don’t do that anymore.

What were you depressed about?

A lot had to do with the band’s situation, the fact that I couldn’t make people in the band understand how great we could all be together if we all played our part. A lot had to do with being in love with someone and not getting any love back. And there was the fact that I didn’t talk much with my father and sister. Anyway, a lot of things happened in this two-day period, but I don’t want to get into it right now.

How’d you get over it?

That’s what the movie’s going to be about. Paisley Park is the only way I can say I got over it now. Paisley Park is the place one should find in oneself, where one can go when one is alone.

You say you’ve now found the place where you can go to be alone. Is it your house? Within the family you’ve built around yourself? With God?

It’s a combination of things. I think when one discovers himself, he discovers God. Or maybe it’s the other way around. I’m not sure...It’s hard to put into words. It’s a feeling—someone knows when they get it. That’s all I can really say.

Do you believe in heaven?

I think there is an afterworld. For some reason, I think it’s going to be just like here, put that’s part...I don’t really like talking about this stuff. It’s so personal.

[Edited 7/9/18 11:56am]

[Edited 7/9/18 11:58am]

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Reply #76 posted 07/10/18 5:18am

bonatoc

avatar

I think some people here try to attribute some intellectual expectances to UTCM.
To me, they've always been more spiritual, Love or Money, from the single,
because the B-side always wins.

You could totally tell by this genius teaser
it was going to be a comedy with a simple premise.
Even the extended version of Kiss is farsical.
Why try to make it a supposedly big movie/deal be out of it?
Camille's humour was pushing under.

It's just a Movie Star spending his money.
It's a R'n'R movie (banging beautiful mature women on the Riviera, pardon, fair l'amooor, fair l'amooor),
with a budget wildly burned in the aesthetics of it, because who doesn't love beautiful?
Much wilder than Purple Rain, which is a very dark urban drama next to it.
Little fun, lots of frowns in Purple Rain.

At 27, Prince is sexy as Elvis, Prince is sexy as Jagger, Prince moves like a cat,
he has the right to imprint himself and his original, people's somewhat crippled teeth grinning forever on film.
UTCM is just his European Dream. A place where you don't care about the rat race.
Having a few good moments with friends is what counts, and the crew shot has just a person
not smiling: Prince. But that's probably a prank too.

But there is a lot in UTCM, the connoisseurs know.
It's 3 seconds gags like the little kids with make-up going all Ferrari on the blonde,
a thin sexy Manu Dibango doppelgänger going "who needs money when you got youth?"
and then gets dumped for blunt, impractical honesty.

The stupid grin he makes to Jerome after "you whistle three times",
it's priceless, and no other star dared to make so much fun of himself,
while reintroducing the concept of The Ladder under a lighter (moon) light.
In The Mood For Love, 1986.

It's a comedy. Tootsie is a simple premise too.
Visually, Tootsie shows his age (his period).
Prince's Valentino outfits, and the gorgeous work from Michael Ballhaus have not.

UTCM is just what it is, a love story set to the tune of Jazz.
It was just his nod to his Dad. He ended up forgiving for John L. for his abandonment
(Christopher Tracy is a troubadour with no real home, fucking barely pays the rent).
They're about the get evicted, so initially Christopher has a good motivation.
Maybe it's just the Studio Cut. It's not good editing. It's not as musical as Parade is.

Other than that, considering how fast, from 1984 to 1988, Prince was mutating,
He could not take the time, sadly, to give UTCM the extra months it would have take
to earn him a second Oscar for Original Soundtrack. All the pieces were there, the cast is fucking great
and Steven Berkoff criminally under-employed.

UTCM, like the Actors Studio era movies, should have been two and a half hour long.
And the music as the main character. Christopher Tracy is a musician, music doesn't pay the rent,
so he has to prositute himself.


There's not only Delores that's a wink to Warner (and the music business in general).
Prince was very aware of having the play the whore, to overdo it
to stay relevant. But he always, and the Lovesexy Tour is the apex of that,
that despite the "business requirements", it's the music we do, the love we make, the life we share
that matters.


So what's your own bright side of life answer?
Love or Money?

Making music with your Minnie pals or wasting time
building what they call a "carreer" instead of writing new songs?


Maybe the fans who wish for a possibly "better" UTCM
are so in love with Michael Ballhaus' shootings of SKipper
that they wish for a more carefully crafted, delicate, drama-inspired,
and I'm with them.


But by then Prince was shooting like he was touring like he was recording:
Hit'n'Run. No time to ponder too much, Time Waits For No One.

So we just had a patchwork movie, still full of poetry in Christopher's last twirl:
He's murdered for wanting to have fun.
That's very Woodstock Flower Power shit, with a simple social comment
on race (racism knows no frontiers), a young woman's emancipation,
sex as liberation and money as the main villain.
A true rebellious movie, from the first paycheck to the last meager royalty.
The Razzie is truly the cult movies' Oscar®, enough said.
That's a rock'n'roll movie award, right there.


[Edited 7/10/18 5:33am]

[Edited 7/10/18 5:46am]

[Edited 7/10/18 5:50am]

[Edited 7/10/18 5:51am]

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #77 posted 07/10/18 8:46am

violetcrush

bonatoc said:

I think some people here try to attribute some intellectual expectances to UTCM.
To me, they've always been more spiritual, Love or Money, from the single,
because the B-side always wins.

You could totally tell by this genius teaser
it was going to be a comedy with a simple premise.
Even the extended version of Kiss is farsical.
Why try to make it a supposedly big movie/deal be out of it?
Camille's humour was pushing under.

It's just a Movie Star spending his money.
It's a R'n'R movie (banging beautiful mature women on the Riviera, pardon, fair l'amooor, fair l'amooor),
with a budget wildly burned in the aesthetics of it, because who doesn't love beautiful?
Much wilder than Purple Rain, which is a very dark urban drama next to it.
Little fun, lots of frowns in Purple Rain.

At 27, Prince is sexy as Elvis, Prince is sexy as Jagger, Prince moves like a cat,
he has the right to imprint himself and his original, people's somewhat crippled teeth grinning forever on film.
UTCM is just his European Dream. A place where you don't care about the rat race.
Having a few good moments with friends is what counts, and the crew shot has just a person
not smiling: Prince. But that's probably a prank too.

But there is a lot in UTCM, the connoisseurs know.
It's 3 seconds gags like the little kids with make-up going all Ferrari on the blonde,
a thin sexy Manu Dibango doppelgänger going "who needs money when you got youth?"
and then gets dumped for blunt, impractical honesty.

The stupid grin he makes to Jerome after "you whistle three times",
it's priceless, and no other star dared to make so much fun of himself,
while reintroducing the concept of The Ladder under a lighter (moon) light.
In The Mood For Love, 1986.

It's a comedy. Tootsie is a simple premise too.
Visually, Tootsie shows his age (his period).
Prince's Valentino outfits, and the gorgeous work from Michael Ballhaus have not.

UTCM is just what it is, a love story set to the tune of Jazz.
It was just his nod to his Dad. He ended up forgiving for John L. for his abandonment
(Christopher Tracy is a troubadour with no real home, fucking barely pays the rent).
They're about the get evicted, so initially Christopher has a good motivation.
Maybe it's just the Studio Cut. It's not good editing. It's not as musical as Parade is.

Other than that, considering how fast, from 1984 to 1988, Prince was mutating,
He could not take the time, sadly, to give UTCM the extra months it would have take
to earn him a second Oscar for Original Soundtrack. All the pieces were there, the cast is fucking great
and Steven Berkoff criminally under-employed.

UTCM, like the Actors Studio era movies, should have been two and a half hour long.
And the music as the main character. Christopher Tracy is a musician, music doesn't pay the rent,
so he has to prositute himself.


There's not only Delores that's a wink to Warner (and the music business in general).
Prince was very aware of having the play the whore, to overdo it
to stay relevant. But he always, and the Lovesexy Tour is the apex of that,
that despite the "business requirements", it's the music we do, the love we make, the life we share
that matters.


So what's your own bright side of life answer?
Love or Money?

Making music with your Minnie pals or wasting time
building what they call a "carreer" instead of writing new songs?


Maybe the fans who wish for a possibly "better" UTCM
are so in love with Michael Ballhaus' shootings of SKipper
that they wish for a more carefully crafted, delicate, drama-inspired,
and I'm with them.


But by then Prince was shooting like he was touring like he was recording:
Hit'n'Run. No time to ponder too much, Time Waits For No One.

So we just had a patchwork movie, still full of poetry in Christopher's last twirl:
He's murdered for wanting to have fun.
That's very Woodstock Flower Power shit, with a simple social comment
on race (racism knows no frontiers), a young woman's emancipation,
sex as liberation and money as the main villain.
A true rebellious movie, from the first paycheck to the last meager royalty.
The Razzie is truly the cult movies' Oscar®, enough said.
That's a rock'n'roll movie award, right there.


[Edited 7/10/18 5:33am]

[Edited 7/10/18 5:46am]

[Edited 7/10/18 5:50am]

[Edited 7/10/18 5:51am]

Your points here are vaild, however, the fact that he chose Nice France, black and white picture, and the death of the main character in the end seems to show that, along with the "slapstick" humor and romance, he was also going for artistic expression and a more serious underlying message.

*

I think this is where Sometimes It Snows In April comes into play - arguably one of his most serious and heartfelt songs during that time, along with Condition Of The Heart on ATWIAD. I think amidst all of the antics and humor he was trying to make a more serious statement, and the two just didn't jive well.

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Reply #78 posted 07/10/18 1:32pm

bonatoc

avatar

So Southern France, black and white and a death at the end of the movie
are all of a sudden synonyms of art? Which country are you from?

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #79 posted 07/10/18 2:10pm

violetcrush

bonatoc said:

So Southern France, black and white and a death at the end of the movie
are all of a sudden synonyms of art? Which country are you from?

No, not "synonyms" of art. My point was that these aspects (location, b&w, the death, and some of the music) show that Prince wasn't just trying to make a fun, slapstick comedy. I think he wanted to include elements of a more serious nature as well. I'm "born in the USA"...for better, and sometimes worse smile

[Edited 7/10/18 14:51pm]

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Reply #80 posted 07/10/18 3:16pm

bonatoc

avatar

violetcrush said:

bonatoc said:

So Southern France, black and white and a death at the end of the movie
are all of a sudden synonyms of art? Which country are you from?

No, not "synonyms" of art. My point was that these aspects (location, b&w, the death, and some of the music) show that Prince wasn't just trying to make a fun, slapstick comedy. I think he wanted to include elements of a more serious nature as well. I'm "born in the USA"...for better, and sometimes worse smile

[Edited 7/10/18 14:51pm]


Roman Holiday is beautifully shot and written, it's not supposed to be serious beyond the obvious (love is our main driver).
The same applies to Some Like It Hot. It's black and white, an exotic location, and the death scene in UTCM was at some point a discarded option, if it had been pivotal to some 'serious' plot it would not have been so.

It's not because you borrow the aesthetics that you're deep.
Again, UTCM is deep as Flower Power is.
It's naive, not serious. And that's precisely the point. Christopher is supposed to be pure despite the job.
As Eric once put it, UTCM is done seriously, but it doesn't take itself too seriously.
Its achievements (the opening credits, the whole birthday party, day and night, the terrace waltz, the mouthful baguette fex, the ladder) are too great for its flaws to put it back to the ground. It's a floating picture. Light as a feather.
"Deep" is not what it's aiming for. "Life is a Parade" is more like it.


Not being condescendent, but you american are easily fooled.
Some french bread and some gorgeous black and white, and it's all of a sudden high culture.
Europe is all about pleasure. That's what UTCM celebrates, or I didn't get the movie.
Clare's arrangements don't suggest much else than passion and romance.
Are these serious matters?

[Edited 7/10/18 15:22pm]

[Edited 7/10/18 15:23pm]

[Edited 7/10/18 15:23pm]

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #81 posted 07/10/18 3:43pm

violetcrush

bonatoc said:

violetcrush said:

No, not "synonyms" of art. My point was that these aspects (location, b&w, the death, and some of the music) show that Prince wasn't just trying to make a fun, slapstick comedy. I think he wanted to include elements of a more serious nature as well. I'm "born in the USA"...for better, and sometimes worse smile

[Edited 7/10/18 14:51pm]


Roman Holiday is beautifully shot and written, it's not supposed to be serious beyond the obvious (love is our main driver).
The same applies to Some Like It Hot. It's black and white, an exotic location, and the death scene in UTCM was at some point a discarded option, if it had been pivotal to some 'serious' plot it would not have been so.

It's not because you borrow the aesthetics that you're deep.
Again, UTCM is deep as Flower Power is.
It's naive, not serious. And that's precisely the point. Christopher is supposed to be pure despite the job.
As Eric once put it, UTCM is done seriously, but it doesn't take itself too seriously.
Its achievements (the opening credits, the whole birthday party, day and night, the terrace waltz, the mouthful baguette fex, the ladder) are too great for its flaws to put it back to the ground. It's a floating picture. Light as a feather.
"Deep" is not what it's aiming for. "Life is a Parade" is more like it.


Not being condescendent, but you american are easily fooled.
Some french bread and some gorgeous black and white, and it's all of a sudden high culture.
Europe is all about pleasure. That's what UTCM celebrates, or I didn't get the movie.
Clare's arrangements don't suggest much else than passion and romance.
Are these serious matters?

[Edited 7/10/18 15:22pm]

[Edited 7/10/18 15:23pm]

[Edited 7/10/18 15:23pm]

I agree with these points, but why then, did Prince suddenly decide to go back to the "death" ending? I believe it was Howard Bloom who stated in one of the Biographies (Matt Thorne's maybe?) that he felt Prince changed the ending in order to convey the message that the character of Christopher Tracy was too sinful to get the "happy" ending - that, in the end, he had to die for his bad behavior. Bloom said the execs frantically called him just before the first test viewing to tell him Prince had chosen the death ending, and they secretly rushed him a copy of the film to get his opinion. He said the original ending was much better, because it fit with the lighter mood of the film. He thought the alternate ending destroyed any success the film may have had.

*

I'm American, but have spent quite a bit of time in Europe. I'm not fooled, trust me. I think UTCM is a story about pleasure, but pleasure for the wrong reasons - at least initially. I think Prince was creating surface comedy in conjunction with possibly a more serious underlying message. The message to love the right way for the right reasons. I think Prince probably did see himself as the "gigolo" during that time ("juggling hearts in a 3-ring circus, someday drive a body down to the ground"..."gigolos get lonely too", etc), and he struggled with his moral compass.

[Edited 7/10/18 15:54pm]

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Reply #82 posted 07/10/18 3:53pm

bonatoc

avatar

Rightly so.
Damn, Christopher!

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #83 posted 07/10/18 5:12pm

PeteSilas

a happy ending probably would have made it suck even more.

violetcrush said:

bonatoc said:


Roman Holiday is beautifully shot and written, it's not supposed to be serious beyond the obvious (love is our main driver).
The same applies to Some Like It Hot. It's black and white, an exotic location, and the death scene in UTCM was at some point a discarded option, if it had been pivotal to some 'serious' plot it would not have been so.

It's not because you borrow the aesthetics that you're deep.
Again, UTCM is deep as Flower Power is.
It's naive, not serious. And that's precisely the point. Christopher is supposed to be pure despite the job.
As Eric once put it, UTCM is done seriously, but it doesn't take itself too seriously.
Its achievements (the opening credits, the whole birthday party, day and night, the terrace waltz, the mouthful baguette fex, the ladder) are too great for its flaws to put it back to the ground. It's a floating picture. Light as a feather.
"Deep" is not what it's aiming for. "Life is a Parade" is more like it.


Not being condescendent, but you american are easily fooled.
Some french bread and some gorgeous black and white, and it's all of a sudden high culture.
Europe is all about pleasure. That's what UTCM celebrates, or I didn't get the movie.
Clare's arrangements don't suggest much else than passion and romance.
Are these serious matters?

[Edited 7/10/18 15:22pm]

[Edited 7/10/18 15:23pm]

[Edited 7/10/18 15:23pm]

I agree with these points, but why then, did Prince suddenly decide to go back to the "death" ending? I believe it was Howard Bloom who stated in one of the Biographies (Matt Thorne's maybe?) that he felt Prince changed the ending in order to convey the message that the character of Christopher Tracy was too sinful to get the "happy" ending - that, in the end, he had to die for his bad behavior. Bloom said the execs frantically called him just before the first test viewing to tell him Prince had chosen the death ending, and they secretly rushed him a copy of the film to get his opinion. He said the original ending was much better, because it fit with the lighter mood of the film. He thought the alternate ending destroyed any success the film may have had.

*

I'm American, but have spent quite a bit of time in Europe. I'm not fooled, trust me. I think UTCM is a story about pleasure, but pleasure for the wrong reasons - at least initially. I think Prince was creating surface comedy in conjunction with possibly a more serious underlying message. The message to love the right way for the right reasons. I think Prince probably did see himself as the "gigolo" during that time ("juggling hearts in a 3-ring circus, someday drive a body down to the ground"..."gigolos get lonely too", etc), and he struggled with his moral compass.

[Edited 7/10/18 15:54pm]

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #84 posted 07/10/18 5:22pm

violetcrush

PeteSilas said:

a happy ending probably would have made it suck even more.

violetcrush said:

I agree with these points, but why then, did Prince suddenly decide to go back to the "death" ending? I believe it was Howard Bloom who stated in one of the Biographies (Matt Thorne's maybe?) that he felt Prince changed the ending in order to convey the message that the character of Christopher Tracy was too sinful to get the "happy" ending - that, in the end, he had to die for his bad behavior. Bloom said the execs frantically called him just before the first test viewing to tell him Prince had chosen the death ending, and they secretly rushed him a copy of the film to get his opinion. He said the original ending was much better, because it fit with the lighter mood of the film. He thought the alternate ending destroyed any success the film may have had.

*

I'm American, but have spent quite a bit of time in Europe. I'm not fooled, trust me. I think UTCM is a story about pleasure, but pleasure for the wrong reasons - at least initially. I think Prince was creating surface comedy in conjunction with possibly a more serious underlying message. The message to love the right way for the right reasons. I think Prince probably did see himself as the "gigolo" during that time ("juggling hearts in a 3-ring circus, someday drive a body down to the ground"..."gigolos get lonely too", etc), and he struggled with his moral compass.

[Edited 7/10/18 15:54pm]

Maybe, but to go from the campy, slapstick, sort of nonchalant feel throughout to then Christopher being chased down and killed are really two opposing moods. Either way the Razzies were inevitable confused

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Reply #85 posted 07/10/18 5:57pm

rusty1

Prince based it on chris moon ..
Prince called him up out of the blue..
He told him u get it “under the cherry moon”
BOB4theFUNK
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Reply #86 posted 07/10/18 6:17pm

violetcrush

rusty1 said:

Prince based it on chris moon .. Prince called him up out of the blue.. He told him u get it “under the cherry moon”

What is your source for that?? Per Matt Thorne's book, he wrote that Chris Moon THOUGHT it was about him, but Alan Leeds stated he was making a big assumption. Moon stated that he always wore a half moon necklace. That and the character's name led him to think the character was based on him. I guess it's possible....

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Reply #87 posted 07/10/18 11:36pm

PeteSilas

violetcrush said:

rusty1 said:

Prince based it on chris moon .. Prince called him up out of the blue.. He told him u get it “under the cherry moon”

What is your source for that?? Per Matt Thorne's book, he wrote that Chris Moon THOUGHT it was about him, but Alan Leeds stated he was making a big assumption. Moon stated that he always wore a half moon necklace. That and the character's name led him to think the character was based on him. I guess it's possible....

maybe he did but that sounds like a tad of a stretch,. i never heard that prince ever talked ot him after they broke up.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #88 posted 07/11/18 4:08am

paulludvig

It's a bit of social commentary isn't, the premise being that if you are born poor and black you can only go so far, they will get you in the end. You will never be granted true happiness, real freedom. It is also an exercise in camp, but born from the same ideas and feelings that fueld his battle with WB. I think Prince always felt he was the underdog.
The wooh is on the one!
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Reply #89 posted 07/11/18 5:32am

poppys

violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

a happy ending probably would have made it suck even more.

Maybe, but to go from the campy, slapstick, sort of nonchalant feel throughout to then Christopher being chased down and killed are really two opposing moods. Either way the Razzies were inevitable confused


And yet Donald Glover just killed with This is America using the same playbook.

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