cloveringold85 said:

benni said:

I was addressing LoveSymbol's statement of "who the hell cares if you pick up the phone and get Prince in treatment against his will". There would not have been a credible way of doing that, is the point I was trying to make her.

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"Who the hell cares" was actually my statement. Just for clarification.

--cloveringold85

Ooops! Sorry! I looked at the quotes wrong!

benni said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

I just think it is ridiculous to have that kind of mind set regarding Prince worrying about his treatment getting out to the public, when his LIFE was at stake!

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I know a person has to be willing to seek help and get treatment, however, when his associates and both Dr. K and Dr. S considered Prince to be having a serious medial issue and/or emergency, and did not react immediately, that is where I have a problem.

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If someone overdoses, you don't just stand around and wait for it happen again.

Dr. S and Dr. K could only act after they were notified. Dr. S was not a regular doctor for Prince and neither was Dr. K. Prince didn't have a regular doctor, from what I can gather from what we've learned. Prince's camp and Prince himself would then need to be responsible to reach out for assistance from a doctor, which they eventually did do. I believe Dr. K was contacted on the 20th and Dr. S did see Prince on the 20th, so they were moving forward and doing what they could to treat Prince.

And what everyone keeps losing sight of is that it was not addiction that killed Prince. If he had not gotten the fentanyl laced pills, chances are he would have gotten treatment and would still be with us. His camp and the doctors put a lot in place within a very short amount of time (for the doctors, within a matter of hours of being notified). But Prince did not die from drug addiction, he died from an ACCIDENTAL OVERDOSE of FENTANYL. It was the fentanyl that did him in, not the pain medication he'd been taking all along, but some pills that were laced with or cut with or however you want to word it, with Fentanyl. It would have been as likely that Prince could have just started taking pain medication and not been addicted and if he would have gotten ahold of those same pills, the same thing would have happened to him. It wasn't addiction that killed him, so being treated for addiction is a moot point. What killed him was fentanyl laced pills.

He could have gone in for treatment, and those pills remained at Paisley, then when he got home, had severe pain one time, decided to take a pill and have the same thing happen. It was those particular pills that did him in. It wasn't lack of treatment. It wasn't anything the doctor's did wrong or right. It was the fentanyl laced pills. Period.

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Of course, we all know that Prince's cause of death was FENTANYL TOXICITY.

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I am assuming you are a doctor ( I know I should not assume), because you are defending both doctors and Andrew's behavior. I understand you work in the medical field, but we can sit here until the cow's come home and keep painting different scenario's of what happened to Prince in the days leading up to his untimely death, and we end up back at square one again!

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Like I said many times before, the help came too late. I guess it's no one's fault. No one is to blame. Thank you Howard Jones!

benni said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Like I said before, you and I have a difference of opinion on this subject. Can we just agree to disagree?

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You feel the way you do, and I feel the way I do and there is nothing that is going to change my mind.

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Like I said, Dr. K and Andrew did not have to do what they did. They are responsible for their own actions as two adults, are they not? Are you saying that it's okay that they broke the law?

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Like I said, (and others as well), you don't send your med student son on a plane from CA with drugs he does not have a license to carry, nor was he qualified to treat Prince, or anyone else!

.

I think we've discusses this subject enough. We're just running in circles here and not getting anywhere.

But he didn't treat Prince. That is the point. Since he didn't treat Prince he is not responsible for Prince's death.

Yes, he should be held accountable for transporting controlled substances across the state lines, since he is not a doctor. However, they would have to prove his intent was to give that medication to Prince and that the medication did not come from his own medicine cabinet and was not prescribed to him personally. Which they can do easily, and I'm sure they have verified that in one way or another. He will be (hopefully) held accountable for that.

I don't disagree with that. I do disagree that the blame for Prince's death should then be on the heads of Dr. K and Andrew. They didn't treat him, so they do not hold any responsibility for that.

.

Great! We both agree on one thing at least. Dr. K and Andrew should be held accountable for transporting controlled substances without a license across state lines! Thank You!

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Well, it was Andrew who made the 911 call, so he has indemnity with regard to the pills in his backpack and what/who they were intended for.

.

Your last paragraph. I would agree with you, IF Prince's team and both doctor's hadn't already agreed to and move foward with their plans for an intervention/treatment for Prince. Their plan was already in action before Prince died. I feel all 3 of them are to blame because when you are offering treatment and you are dealing with a life and death situation, you act on it immediately -- not 24 Hours later.

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We keep butting heads on that part.

.

[Edited 4/25/17 15:22pm]

benni said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

"Who the hell cares" was actually my statement. Just for clarification.

--cloveringold85

Ooops! Sorry! I looked at the quotes wrong!

.

It's fine.

precioux said:

Mumio said:

No, I don't consider any news source infallible, just consider how this whole last year has gone and the media coverage with it and it's clear that correct information and reliability has been sorely lacking.

Someone else looked at that story you linked to and said they found it had been corrected at some point, so AP definitely wasn't reliable in this instance, but at least did correct their error. Again, Phaedra was not his attorney, she does not identify as an attorney, does not claim to have any law degree, and it's obviously an error that was made numerous times. That's how it happens, one person gives incorrect info and others copy and then do the same. Clearly, Prince was misquoted in his reference to who Phaedra was since she was his manager.

Thanks for the correction, Muimo-and sorry for the "Wrong!"

I honestly don't know what to make of the "associates calling" because of a medical emergency. I think the statement given by Mauzy was to CYA. In all actuality, this trip made by Dr.K's son was SOOO underhanded, maybe the associates may have called, but P would only agree to how it came about...in order to protect his identity. This was not above board by any stretch. Furthermore, people here are asking "what would Dr.K's son have to gain?" I'm not insinuating he had anything to do with P's death, BUT, the question should be "what did Dr.K's son have to lose?" Think about it, he never even met P, and is "riding dirty" with the pills "from his medicine cabinet"(yeah,right) and is a med student...he could've been finished right then and there...especially had P been alive and passed in his "care"

Peace

There is a correction that I need to make because apparently I did not finish my sentence above. Phaedra Ellis-Lamkins was Prince's manager of NPG Music Publishing, LLC. She was not HIS manager and I apologize for apparently losing my train of thought and not finishing what I was saying last night. She is noted specifically as the manager of NPG Music Publishing, LLC in court documents for anyone who needs to look that up (let me know if you need a link).

Anyway, I became aware of my error due to Laurarichardson's comment about this in another post. Thanks Laura, appreciate the correction

MMJas said:

But yet Prince went to Dr S and also walked himself into Walgreens to pick up a prescription. That does not seem like he was worried about being exposed.

As stated by ISLIJAG earlier the Dr in Cali is an out patient Dr he was not going in anywhere...although that makes no sense as how is an outpatient Dr in Cali going to treat a Minnesota patient. That Dr should have referred him to a local outpatient Dr.
Minnesota is more discrete than Cali and the reason Prince said he lived there

cloveringold85 said:

And have it with Andrews warrant not the first one which had some of Kirk mentioned or Dr S warrant.

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Regarding the neck and hand swabs; I don't know what to think about that one. It does seem rather odd that they would do that, without good reason.

And have it with Andrews warrant not the first one which had some of Kirk mentioned or Dr S warrant.

Oh, I misread that. I thought it was Andrew's hands and neck ( I figured people touch their neck often if nervous) so by swabbing Andrew's hands they could determine that he did or did not touch any meds that morning.

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It was P's neck and hands swabbed on Andrew's warrant?

MMJas said:

I agree. I think it was the issue of privacy.
[Edited 4/25/17 16:34pm]

I understand that people are tormented about the last hours of Prince's life out of their own grief and pain. But at some point, even the most grief-stricken will have to accept that there are things about those last hours and days that will not be known in our lifetimes.

What we DO know, and can reflect upon, is that Prince , throughout his life, was unreachable by others with good advice, a different perspective, tough love, during critical junctures in his life and career. I reference the never-ending WB thing which grossly interrupted the flow of his music to the wider world during his productive apex, the JW immersion, the gut-wrenching aftermath of the loss of his son and marriage when many believed he was unable to process his grief in a healing way, his loneliness, his physical and emotional pain.

There is no one to blame. It should come as no shock to anyone who followed him for 30 years that he was emotionally and mentally unreachable, stubborn, not aware of his own reality (pain + pills and pills and pills=death) isolated, surrounded by hangers-on, many of whom did not have his best interests at heart. This is why he died too soon. The last pill was the smallest part of it. Prince died the way he lived. Alone.

This is the time to be thankful for his precious life and the gifts he shared with us...and dance on.

cloveringold85 said:

benni said:

But he didn't treat Prince. That is the point. Since he didn't treat Prince he is not responsible for Prince's death.

Yes, he should be held accountable for transporting controlled substances across the state lines, since he is not a doctor. However, they would have to prove his intent was to give that medication to Prince and that the medication did not come from his own medicine cabinet and was not prescribed to him personally. Which they can do easily, and I'm sure they have verified that in one way or another. He will be (hopefully) held accountable for that.

I don't disagree with that. I do disagree that the blame for Prince's death should then be on the heads of Dr. K and Andrew. They didn't treat him, so they do not hold any responsibility for that.

.

Great! We both agree on one thing at least. Dr. K and Andrew should be held accountable for transporting controlled substances without a license across state lines! Thank You!

.

Well, it was Andrew who made the 911 call, so he has indemnity with regard to the pills in his backpack and what/who they were intended for.

.

Your last paragraph. I would agree with you, IF Prince's team and both doctor's hadn't already agreed to and move foward with their plans for an intervention/treatment for Prince. Their plan was already in action before Prince died. I feel all 3 of them are to blame because when you are offering treatment and you are dealing with a life and death situation, you act on it immediately -- not 24 Hours later.

.

We keep butting heads on that part.

.

[Edited 4/25/17 15:22pm]

Because I cannot agree that it was a life or death situation at that point. If Prince had died because he took regular pain medication, then I would be able to concede the point and say, "Yes, he obviously was in bad shape, and was clearly on his way to an overdose." However, Prince did not die from regular pain medication that he overdosed on. He died because the pills he took had fentanyl in them. I sincerely believe that if those pills had been his regular pain medication, what he had been taking all along, Prince would still be with us. I cannot get past the fact that he took pills that had fentanyl in them and would have died whether he was addicted or not by taking those pills.

And I have said earlier, I'm not convinced that Prince was addicted. Dependency, yes, perhaps, but addiction, no. And there is a difference between dependency and addiction.

Prince was seen out riding his bike, he was seen at that pharmacy, he held a party at Paisley Park. His people left him alone. If it were life or death, they would NOT have left him alone. They obviously were concerned by the incident in Moline on the plane, but they were not so concerned that they felt uncomfortable leaving him alone that night. And obviously the doctors were not so concerned that they felt he was in immediate danger, otherwise, they would have came up with a different treatment plan than the one they agreed on.

So I cannot agree that it was a life or death situation at that point in time. So the plan of action the doctors had decided upon was appropriate. It only became a life or death situation when Prince took pills that had fentanyl in them.

cloveringold85 said:

I understand where you are coming from. However, unless one has been proven to not be of sound mind, or an immediate threat to oneself (meaning one has to legally obtain medical power of attorney, etc.) there is NOTHING anyone can do to force someone into the hospital, rehab, any of it. Yes, one can call 911, doctors, therapists, but the bottom line is if the person refuses treatment no one can force them. You could physically tackle and drive that person Into rehab/hospital and within minutes that person can walk right out the door on their own accord. Sadly.

PennyPurple said:

Agree.

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

About that.....POA because with dependence and withdrawals he had not been in a state of mind to make rational decisions? And, that being said, if she had POA, she would be in a position to make medical decisions.

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Regarding the neck and hand swabs; I don't know what to think about that one. It does seem rather odd that they would do that, without good reason.

And have it with Andrews warrant not the first one which had some of Kirk mentioned or Dr S warrant.

.

^^^^

CooperC62057 said:

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

Phaedra has conflicting dates with when she worked with Prince. She has been caught lying, and had settled out of court recently with the Estate. She was one of three people with Prince at the WB meeting to get his masters back And some questioned if she may have been Ps POA.

About that.....POA because with dependence and withdrawals he had not been in a state of mind to make rational decisions? And, that being said, if she had POA, she would be in a position to make medical decisions.

No, POA probably wouldn’t be applicable here. When you give someone POA it can be for a specific project or specific amount of time. I doubt P gave POA to anyone for everything. I gave my attorney POA when I sold my first house because I didn’t want to be at the closing. He signed all the documents at the closing for me but definitely could not make any other decisions and certainly not health decisions.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

I understand that people are tormented about the last hours of Prince's life out of their own grief and pain. But at some point, even the most grief-stricken will have to accept that there are things about those last hours and days that will not be known in our lifetimes.

What we DO know, and can reflect upon, is that Prince , throughout his life, was unreachable by others with good advice, a different perspective, tough love, during critical junctures in his life and career. I reference the never-ending WB thing which grossly interrupted the flow of his music to the wider world during his productive apex, the JW immersion, the gut-wrenching aftermath of the loss of his son and marriage when many believed he was unable to process his grief in a healing way, his loneliness, his physical and emotional pain.

There is no one to blame. It should come as no shock to anyone who followed him for 30 years that he was emotionally and mentally unreachable, stubborn, not aware of his own reality (pain + pills and pills and pills=death) isolated, surrounded by hangers-on, many of whom did not have his best interests at heart. This is why he died too soon. The last pill was the smallest part of it. Prince died the way he lived. Alone.

This is the time to be thankful for his precious life and the gifts he shared with us...and dance on.

.

Thanks, you summed it up perfectly.

You know, some people here have a bad habit of disregarding other's who clearly know what they are talking about because they don't like what they are being told or they don't agree with it.

That said: Benni and I don't see eye to eye on certain things, however she is SPOT ON with what she is saying in regard to medical procedures, medical policies, HIPAA, and patient rights. It doesn't matter in the slightest that someone doesn't like what she is saying, she is speaking with authority on these matters because she knows that this is how it is in the medical world. So while you can disagree regarding an opinion, she is not giving opinions when she has expressed what the protocol is regarding the above. So please stop making yourselves look silly by continuing to argue about things that are pretty much set in stone throughout the healthcare industry. She is correct with what she is telling us here.

And finally this: for goodness sake, please stop with the bs that people should have forced Prince to take any action that he didn't want to take. You CAN NOT force anyone to accept medical assistance if they are of sound mind and not a danger to others. People's opinions on whether Prince was of sound mind doesn't matter in the slightest. Medical professionals do know how to assess patients in crisis and make the determination based on the criteria they have to follow. When I think how many of you seem to think P should have been forced into care, regardless of how well-intentioned your thoughts are, it really concerns me that people don't understand what boundaries are. It is not your right to make decisions for other's health care unless there is a health care proxy in place. So just stop with that line of thinking please, it's not opinion-based or up for vote. So many here are clearly caring people but damn, y'all go too far with this piece.

Benni, thank you for trying to clarify how it works.

[Edited 4/25/17 16:54pm]

benni said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Great! We both agree on one thing at least. Dr. K and Andrew should be held accountable for transporting controlled substances without a license across state lines! Thank You!

.

Well, it was Andrew who made the 911 call, so he has indemnity with regard to the pills in his backpack and what/who they were intended for.

.

Your last paragraph. I would agree with you, IF Prince's team and both doctor's hadn't already agreed to and move foward with their plans for an intervention/treatment for Prince. Their plan was already in action before Prince died. I feel all 3 of them are to blame because when you are offering treatment and you are dealing with a life and death situation, you act on it immediately -- not 24 Hours later.

.

We keep butting heads on that part.

.

[Edited 4/25/17 15:22pm]

Because I cannot agree that it was a life or death situation at that point. If Prince had died because he took regular pain medication, then I would be able to concede the point and say, "Yes, he obviously was in bad shape, and was clearly on his way to an overdose." However, Prince did not die from regular pain medication that he overdosed on. He died because the pills he took had fentanyl in them. I sincerely believe that if those pills had been his regular pain medication, what he had been taking all along, Prince would still be with us. I cannot get past the fact that he took pills that had fentanyl in them and would have died whether he was addicted or not by taking those pills.

And I have said earlier, I'm not convinced that Prince was addicted. Dependency, yes, perhaps, but addiction, no. And there is a difference between dependency and addiction.

Prince was seen out riding his bike, he was seen at that pharmacy, he held a party at Paisley Park. His people left him alone. If it were life or death, they would NOT have left him alone. They obviously were concerned by the incident in Moline on the plane, but they were not so concerned that they felt uncomfortable leaving him alone that night. And obviously the doctors were not so concerned that they felt he was in immediate danger, otherwise, they would have came up with a different treatment plan than the one they agreed on.

So I cannot agree that it was a life or death situation at that point in time. So the plan of action the doctors had decided upon was appropriate. It only became a life or death situation when Prince took pills that had fentanyl in them.

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Your first paragraph: You are right.

.

Second paragraph: I agree and feel the same way you do. I also think that Prince had a dependency, not an "addiction". He was seeking relief from his pain. Not doing it to get high.

.

Third paragraph: I'm not so sure about his team who left him alone, because they obviously knew that things were not "right" and they were concerned enough to contact/set-up intervention with Dr. K.

.

Lastly, I suppose you are right -- they did not see Prince as having a life or death emergency, but yet they were concerned enough to call a doctor in CA.

.

Ultimately, it was the Fentanyl that took his life.

kmama07 said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

I just think it is ridiculous to have that kind of mind set regarding Prince worrying about his treatment getting out to the public, when his LIFE was at stake!

.

I know a person has to be willing to seek help and get treatment, however, when his associates and both Dr. K and Dr. S considered Prince to be having a serious medial issue and/or emergency, and did not react immediately, that is where I have a problem.

.

If someone overdoses, you don't just stand around and wait for it happen again.

I understand where you are coming from. However, unless one has been proven to not be of sound mind, or an immediate threat to oneself (meaning one has to legally obtain medical power of attorney, etc.) there is NOTHING anyone can do to force someone into the hospital, rehab, any of it. Yes, one can call 911, doctors, therapists, but the bottom line is if the person refuses treatment no one can force them. You could physically tackle and drive that person Into rehab/hospital and within minutes that person can walk right out the door on their own accord. Sadly.

.

You are right.

.

It's a very unfortunate situation and such a tragedy that could have all been avoided.

cloveringold85 said:

Heartbreaking

Mumio said:

You know, some people here have a bad habit of disregarding other's who clearly know what they are talking about because they don't like what they are being told or they don't agree with it.

That said: Benni and I don't see eye to eye on certain things, however she is SPOT ON with what she is saying in regard to medical procedures, medical policies, HIPAA, and patient rights. It doesn't matter in the slightest that someone doesn't like what she is saying, she is speaking with authority on these matters because she knows that this is how it is in the medical world. So while you can disagree regarding an opinion, she is not giving opinions when she has expressed what the protocol is regarding the above. So please stop making yourselves look silly by continuing to argue about things that are pretty much set in stone throughout the healthcare industry. She is correct with what she is telling us here.

And finally this: for goodness sake, please stop with the bs that people should have forced Prince to take any action that he didn't want to take. You CAN NOT force anyone to accept medical assistance if they are of sound mind and not a danger to others. People's opinions on whether Prince was of sound mind doesn't matter in the slightest. Medical professionals do know how to assess patients in crisis and make the determination based on the criteria they have to follow. When I think how many of you seem to think P should have been forced into care, regardless of how well-intentioned your thoughts are, it really concerns me that people don't understand what boundaries are. It is not your right to make decisions for other's health care unless there is a health care proxy in place. So just stop with that line of thinking please, it's not opinion-based or up for vote. So many here are clearly caring people but damn, y'all go too far with this piece.

Benni, thank you for trying to clarify how it works.

[Edited 4/25/17 16:54pm]

Thanks, Mumio. And no, we don't always agree on things, but I truly appreciate what you said here.

cloveringold85 said:

benni said:

Because I cannot agree that it was a life or death situation at that point. If Prince had died because he took regular pain medication, then I would be able to concede the point and say, "Yes, he obviously was in bad shape, and was clearly on his way to an overdose." However, Prince did not die from regular pain medication that he overdosed on. He died because the pills he took had fentanyl in them. I sincerely believe that if those pills had been his regular pain medication, what he had been taking all along, Prince would still be with us. I cannot get past the fact that he took pills that had fentanyl in them and would have died whether he was addicted or not by taking those pills.

And I have said earlier, I'm not convinced that Prince was addicted. Dependency, yes, perhaps, but addiction, no. And there is a difference between dependency and addiction.

Prince was seen out riding his bike, he was seen at that pharmacy, he held a party at Paisley Park. His people left him alone. If it were life or death, they would NOT have left him alone. They obviously were concerned by the incident in Moline on the plane, but they were not so concerned that they felt uncomfortable leaving him alone that night. And obviously the doctors were not so concerned that they felt he was in immediate danger, otherwise, they would have came up with a different treatment plan than the one they agreed on.

So I cannot agree that it was a life or death situation at that point in time. So the plan of action the doctors had decided upon was appropriate. It only became a life or death situation when Prince took pills that had fentanyl in them.

.

Your first paragraph: You are right.

.

Second paragraph: I agree and feel the same way you do. I also think that Prince had a dependency, not an "addiction". He was seeking relief from his pain. Not doing it to get high.

.

Third paragraph: I'm not so sure about his team who left him alone, because they obviously knew that things were not "right" and they were concerned enough to contact/set-up intervention with Dr. K.

.

Lastly, I suppose you are right -- they did not see Prince as having a life or death emergency, but yet they were concerned enough to call a doctor in CA.

.

Ultimately, it was the Fentanyl that took his life.

So, we need to make sure the police 1. find out who supplied Prince with the pills that contained the fentanyl and 2. find out who manufactured the damn pills. Ultimately, they are responsible for Prince's death and should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

cloveringold85 said:

kmama07 said:

cloveringold85 said: I understand where you are coming from. However, unless one has been proven to not be of sound mind, or an immediate threat to oneself (meaning one has to legally obtain medical power of attorney, etc.) there is NOTHING anyone can do to force someone into the hospital, rehab, any of it. Yes, one can call 911, doctors, therapists, but the bottom line is if the person refuses treatment no one can force them. You could physically tackle and drive that person Into rehab/hospital and within minutes that person can walk right out the door on their own accord. Sadly.

.

You are right.

.

It's a very unfortunate situation and such a tragedy that could have all been avoided.

That's what breaks my heart, that it was such a tragic accident, one that might have been avoided. But I really want to know WHO gave him those pills.

And for those that may not understand the difference between addiction and dependency:

Addiction can occur without physical dependence; consider cocaine or methamphetamine both have little outwardly apparent withdrawal syndrome but addiction to either can devastate lives. Non-substance addictions such as gambling, sex or internet also have no physical dependence. What is common to all these addictions is the unnatural cravings that prompt the compulsive behaviors.

Physical dependence can occur without addiction; this is the common experience of most chronic pain patients who are able to take their opioid medication as prescribed for pain but don't develop the uncontrollable compulsion and loss of control. A desire to avoid withdrawal is not addiction.

Addiction and Dependence ...rien, M.D.

benni said:

They said he was in a grave medical emergency before he took the damn pill. You can discount that to fit your theory, but that is not the information that has been given

Mumio said:

Back at ya

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

benni said:

So, we need to make sure the police 1. find out who supplied Prince with the pills that contained the fentanyl and 2. find out who manufactured the damn pills. Ultimately, they are responsible for Prince's death and should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

They said he was in a grave medical emergency before he took the damn pill. You can discount that to fit your theory, but that is not the information that has been given

It was Dr. K's attorney that said that. I have not seen that reported by anyone else or said by anyone else.

cloveringold85 said:

When someone goes in cardiac arrest, I think foam starts coming out your mouth eventually.

benni said:[quote]

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

benni said:

So, we need to make sure the police 1. find out who supplied Prince with the pills that contained the fentanyl and 2. find out who manufactured the damn pills. Ultimately, they are responsible for Prince's death and should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

They said he was in a grave medical emergency before he took the damn pill. You can discount that to fit your theory, but that is not the information that has been given

It was Dr. K's attorney that said that. I have not seen that reported by anyone else or said by anyone else.

[/quot




Well everything is just what people said. I would assume that dr k's attorney was speaking on his behalf, and they had discussed what would be said in advance. Or dr k's attorney made that up and dr k just went along with it?