So are you insinuating that every single song he did in the 90's was the equivalent of Jughead, The Pope and the Graffiti Bridge song. Because also on the Graffiti Bridge album are the question of u", "Joy in Repetition" and "Thieves in the Temple"--all Prince staples that he played constantly live. So, we are too chicken shit to peruse through songs like the Pope to get to the good songs. He was human. He wasn't perfect..but la la la he he hee is no masterpiece in my opinon even if it is not as embarrassing as Jughead.

Mintchip said:

I don't understand the OPs point. A song like "Jughead" is very very bad, shockingly bad, not just bad for Prince. He got embarrassing, quick. A lot of Grafitti Bridge is embarrassing. "Pope", from 93, is hard to listen to. Again, not "this music is worse than Purple Rain", but "I will now pretend this awful music doesn't exist". . and "la la la he he hee (highly explosive)" is amazing. [Edited 4/2/17 15:27pm]

rusty1 said:

rusty1 said:

Prince's best B-sides such as "HCUDCMA?","17 days", "Erotic City", "She's always in my hair".. Blow away anything he did from 1989 to 2016.. Like Questlove explained.. 78 to 88 was his window where he was building his Own sound.. 1982 to 87 Prince connected with the musical audience On every level.. From 1989 forward, Prince was no longer the trend setter. He started chasing hip -hop(which he put down on "dead on it") & using a rapper who was awful. Prince had more have baked ideas but still had some good albums left in him. Let's be honest, come, chaos & disorder, NPS, Were throw away albums. I will say that the gold experience, Emancipation& TRC were good but but not great albums. 3121 had a very weak first single & people overrated that Album. The RUTJF had some good songs but tried desperately to make a commerical comeback.. With too many guest stars on it. Everybody has that that period where they are in a zone. From 1979 to 88, Prince was growing & created his own sound. It seemed as if he lost his way or didn't have that clear of A vision, after that point. Plus the fact that name change turned a lot of People off as well [Edited 4/2/17 12:17pm]

I'm not going to lie though, the interviews and performances with the veil over his face was entertaining and hilarious. Now that slave shit on his face made me cringe because this was during the golden gangsta rap era and I was like lawd Mr. Nelson please don't do nothing crazy and also remember that OJ Simpson shit was going on to and the tension was so high during 1990-1997 you can wear hit or cut it with a knife. But back on subject every new artist is accepted during their prime and unfortunately leave their prime due to now being the public eye. Trust me you can hire all the security you want if your name sells TMZ kind of people will get you by all means necessary. So instead of having that freedom to be focus completely on your art you are busy jingling two different lifestyles your celebrity ego lifestyle, and your personal lifestyle. Whereas you only worried about your artistry and making it out the ghetto which was your personal lifestyle.

purplerabbithole said:

Mintchip said:

No, I'm not insinuating that. I think I get your point; to reclaim 90s Prince from people who think it's all shit? Well, their loss: of course there's tons of good stuff in the 90s. But I also don't think critical perception of the decade is that far off the mark, or in need of reevaluating, with the possible exception of "come". Most albums have a few good ones, a few bad ones, and a few in the middle. It results in what we've got: a lukewarm appreciation. . This is why I think the fan compilation "the dawn 4.1" is so essential. It rescues the best songs from 93 - 96, and presents them on one 3 disk album. purplerabbithole said:

So are you insinuating that every single song he did in the 90's was the equivalent of Jughead, The Pope and the Graffiti Bridge song. Because also on the Graffiti Bridge album are the question of u", "Joy in Repetition" and "Thieves in the Temple"--all Prince staples that he played constantly live. So, we are too chicken shit to peruse through songs like the Pope to get to the good songs. He was human. He wasn't perfect..but la la la he he hee is no masterpiece in my opinon even if it is not as embarrassing as Jughead.

Sorry to split hairs (and also sound like a broken record), but several posts were characterizing not just the '90s, but 1989 - 2016.

As far as the Come album goes, I'm also one of those who thinks there's some great stuff on there.

Damn, I'm really old...I've forgotten more about this debate than I care to remember. Imma just oil down with some Bengay or some IcyHot and let y'all young folks duke it out.

sonshine said:

rusty1 said:

The bottom line is his 80's era is why Prince is a legend. He did nothing great after 1988. He could do no wrong & had no filler albums, During his heyday. The people on this site are unreal. Ok everything Prince did was great

Boy, did i take sh*t the other night for making similar observations, tho I probably have a bit more love for his later work than rusty1 does. He makes some very good points tho and I tend to agree.

Okay but come on.
It's over now.

When we had a chance he might read some of us ranting, maybe we had a point.
Now there's no more reason, the only thing we have left is to listen, and listen again.
Give the song and the style we don't care about a chance.

Even if it appears simple at first hearing because he accustomed us to the sophistication of Parade, and the Beck-like lo-fi on SOTT, and the laser production of Lovesexy, he decided to reinvent himself.

There's really no point. I've been there. Prince shoulda done that, Prince shoulda done this, and the worst, the one we all are guilty of at some point: Prince shoulda done a song/album/move/solo I like.
SKipper was not out our butler.

This thread give us a place to speak about it, but frankly, now he's gone, I want to know why he went to simpler chords or rap. Because The Dawn, that's the real emancipation album. This one, it defines the nineties, period. Hide The Bone is one of the best songs of the nineties, it doesn't matter we were the lucky ones to be in the know.
Blast it in a club, and suddenly "Get Lucky" sounds like shit, means shit, it's mongoloid.
Hide The Bone is dance-floor destroyer.

Now's the time to share around us, and you would cut out the ones who would think the Love Symbol album is total, absolute, fucking masterpiece from start to end.

He reinvented himself. That's another artist.
The name change was not JUST a legal move.
It also allowed him to get past himself. So don't expect the same composition style, don't expect the Linn, don't expect the eighties. That's what Prince meant, I think.

[Edited 4/3/17 12:06pm]

[Edited 4/3/17 12:07pm]

He has some great songs after the eighties, the eighties it's not the end of everything.

NorthC said:

^ You do know that Hide the Bone isn't a Prince/ Artist original, right? I see your point about P trying to get away from his image, but he wasn't exactly moving forward in those years. He went back to the music of his youth, playing Graham Central Station, Santana and Sly & the Family Stone covers. I didn't have any problem with that, I love that music, but it also meant that P's mid 90s music was nowhere near as original as his 80s music. [Edited 4/3/17 14:19pm] [Edited 4/3/17 14:21pm]

I don't agree. Here's why. Imagine you had no bootlegs.
Not one.
A just a world tour every two years. No aftershows, nada.
No outtakes, nothing that suggest Prince is in reality recording day after day after day.
Do you remember the shock when you learned When Doves Cry took 24 hours straight, right?

Now Prince puts out a record avery 2 year or so.
Pick your favorite, I'm sure you can keep up the pace with some of them.

My point is, we don't get to define what originality is. Prince in the eighties is a mix of The Clash, Blondie, Hendrix for the looks, Santana for the guitar, Jerry Lee Lewis for the piano, some Kraftwerk, some Kate Bush, some Beatles, some Jazz, going this way I could reply Prince has always been a bag of influences. You're not just particular fond of Old School Funk, but come on.

What about "What's my Name?" ? What about "Big White Mansion" ? "Shhh" ?
The problem with the nineties, is that people, because they have access to the journal pages, mistake them for official records.

Prince switched to Radio Prince. Pick up what you like.

How best studied?
Live.

Everything happened live.
The Beautiful Experience, 'nuff said.

"Exodus" is made of big fat live sessions, then processed.
And not that much. It's just an astounding, hyper-pyscho-realistic-abstract space.
"The Exodus Has Begun" makes you feel like there are 64 tracks filled by the ad lib.
There are burst of pure talent every year, Every year yields several pop, rock, and funk masterpieces.

Just make one these boring playlists, take 10 a year, call it an album, and listen to them in sequence repeatedly. Drop the sketches if they're not your thing.

I think that's beauty of it. He's so generous.
What more do you want?
A trial? Thou shoult have produuuce more classics?
Fill more records?

"Puh! I'm gonna stay in my hometown and make a killer band outta Minneapolis folks.
Gonna play for my fans.
Fuck'em millions."

[Edited 4/3/17 16:57pm]

People look through roase colored glasses.

IMO ATWIAD was a horrible album with three good songs and three good B-sides.

Another thing that folk tend to forget is that Prince's classic albums outside of Purple Rain and 1999 didn't sell.SOTT which is his GOAT album didn't sell. Lovesexy really didn't sell. Parade didn't sell.

Also Prince's music is like wine in may ways it gets better with age.

rusty1 said:

Prince's best B-sides such as "HCUDCMA?","17 days", "Erotic City", "She's always in my hair".. Blow away anything he did from 1989 to 2016.. Like Questlove explained.. 78 to 88 was his window where he was building his Own sound.. 1982 to 87 Prince connected with the musical audience On every level.. From 1989 forward, Prince was no longer the trend setter. He started chasing hip -hop(which he put down on "dead on it") & using a rapper who was awful. Prince had more have baked ideas but still had some good albums left in him. Let's be honest, come, chaos & disorder, NPS, Were throw away albums. I will say that the gold experience, Emancipation& TRC were good but but not great albums. 3121 had a very weak first single & people overrated that Album. The RUTJF had some good songs but tried desperately to make a commerical comeback.. With too many guest stars on it. Everybody has that that period where they are in a zone. From 1979 to 88, Prince was growing & created his own sound. It seemed as if he lost his way or didn't have that clear of A vision, after that point. Plus the fact that name change turned a lot of People off as well [Edited 4/2/17 12:17pm]

Going to have to mainly disagree with you on this.

That 80s period was certainly when he was trailblazing (although it wasn't ALL amazing). His later work had some exceptional stuff in it. If you were to consider only his work from the last couple of decades of his career, he would still be considered an exceptional artist, just not the all-time great that the first decade makes him.

tired of this crap...some of the BEST artists have 5 years of "quality" material in them....he had 2 decades..shut the F up already

[Edited 4/3/17 18:33pm]

BINGO

bonatoc said:

rusty1 said:

Prince's best B-sides such as "HCUDCMA?","17 days", "Erotic City", "She's always in my hair".. Blow away anything he did from 1989 to 2016.. Like Questlove explained.. 78 to 88 was his window where he was building his Own sound.. 1982 to 87 Prince connected with the musical audience On every level.. From 1989 forward, Prince was no longer the trend setter. He started chasing hip -hop(which he put down on "dead on it") & using a rapper who was awful. Prince had more have baked ideas but still had some good albums left in him. Let's be honest, come, chaos & disorder, NPS, Were throw away albums. I will say that the gold experience, Emancipation& TRC were good but but not great albums. 3121 had a very weak first single & people overrated that Album. The RUTJF had some good songs but tried desperately to make a commerical comeback.. With too many guest stars on it. Everybody has that that period where they are in a zone. From 1979 to 88, Prince was growing & created his own sound. It seemed as if he lost his way or didn't have that clear of A vision, after that point. Plus the fact that name change turned a lot of People off as well [Edited 4/2/17 12:17pm]

rusty1, you have this american tendency to confuse success with artistry.

Your "let's be honest" resonates only on your keyboard, but not in everyone's mind.
It always will be a failed attempt to try to persuade that your point of view should be ZEE point of view.

When you're talking about "window", "trend setter", "commercial comeback", you sound like a Warner Bros marketing intern dork, not as someone who has precise tastes in music and knows how to explain them to people with a different opinion.

Prince wasn't in it for the money. Whatever you're assuming, he simply knew how to pay the bills for PP and its operations. For the rest, he was just writing what he felt like writing.

But I've been there long ago, I get where you're getting at.
Again, art is not business. Prince just happened to exist in the 20th century, that's all. So he dealt with it the best he could.

As for artistic quality, boy oh boy you really don't know your Vault if you think he didn't produce masterpieces at the very same time where he put out albums you find disappointing.
His talent never left him. In the end, the real excitement was to be found in the live performances. Go for it.

leecaldon said:

rusty1 said:

Prince's best B-sides such as "HCUDCMA?","17 days", "Erotic City", "She's always in my hair".. Blow away anything he did from 1989 to 2016.. Like Questlove explained.. 78 to 88 was his window where he was building his Own sound.. 1982 to 87 Prince connected with the musical audience On every level.. From 1989 forward, Prince was no longer the trend setter. He started chasing hip -hop(which he put down on "dead on it") & using a rapper who was awful. Prince had more have baked ideas but still had some good albums left in him. Let's be honest, come, chaos & disorder, NPS, Were throw away albums. I will say that the gold experience, Emancipation& TRC were good but but not great albums. 3121 had a very weak first single & people overrated that Album. The RUTJF had some good songs but tried desperately to make a commerical comeback.. With too many guest stars on it. Everybody has that that period where they are in a zone. From 1979 to 88, Prince was growing & created his own sound. It seemed as if he lost his way or didn't have that clear of A vision, after that point. Plus the fact that name change turned a lot of People off as well [Edited 4/2/17 12:17pm]

Going to have to mainly disagree with you on this.

That 80s period was certainly when he was trailblazing (although it wasn't ALL amazing). His later work had some exceptional stuff in it. If you were to consider only his work from the last couple of decades of his career, he would still be considered an exceptional artist, just not the all-time great that the first decade makes him.

gandorb said:

rusty1 said:

gandorb said:

That was exactly my point. The 1978 to 88 period made him a legend

But wasn't your point also that he stopped making great music after that period?

Thank you purplerabbithole for starting this discussion. I read article after article where someone says something like "Prince was a singular artist. Just listen to 1999, When Doves Cry, or Adore", as if post-1988 didn't exist. I think the 1989-2016 period was full of incredible music and is ripe for exploration. My way of engaging with this was to start a discussion thread about a sequel to The Hits / The B-Sides, a compilation covering 1994-2015 (http://prince.org/msg/7/440468). Best Of discs from this period are incredible listens.

.

There's a stunning amount of fantastic music and entire albums from post 1988. Constantly comparing it to the 80s output makes the experience less enjoyable and prevents us enjoying the music on its own merits, rather than, for instance, disliking Dolphin because it's not Computer Blue. Because the post-1994 music isn't as popular and overplayed I actually listen to it much more than the 80s stuff (which is still mindblowing of course).

.

One exciting possibility is that someone going through the post-1988 vault will have the time (unlike Prince who worked at breakneck speed) to make better song choices and produce better compilations than Prince did. Even already released tracks might be reworked into new and superior compilations. For instance, maybe there's a whole album of 1996-era gems that I Like It There might better fit into than Chaos And Disorder.

[Edited 4/4/17 11:01am]

I dont' think there can be a discussion about Prince after the 80s without a parallel discussion about his record contract(s) and battles.

His career should serve as a lesson of what an artist should and should not do in regards to a record contract.

As far as his cultural impact after the 80s . . . he pioneered internet music, offering downloads and subscriptions years before iTunes was even around. His system might've been a little simple, but it worked for what its purpose was.

luvsexy4all said:

lrpro said:

gubbins4ever said:

rusty1 said:

gubbins4ever said:

Thank you purplerabbithole for starting this discussion. I read article after article where someone says something like "Prince was a singular artist. Just listen to 1999, When Doves Cry, or Adore", as if post-1988 didn't exist. I think the 1989-2016 period was full of incredible music and is ripe for exploration. My way of engaging with this was to start a discussion thread about a sequel to The Hits / The B-Sides, a compilation covering 1994-2015 (http://prince.org/msg/7/440468). Best Of discs from this period are incredible listens.

.

There's a stunning amount of fantastic music and entire albums from post 1988. Constantly comparing it to the 80s output makes the experience less enjoyable and prevents us enjoying the music on its own merits, rather than, for instance, disliking Dolphin because it's not Computer Blue. Because the post-1994 music isn't as popular and overplayed I actually listen to it much more than the 80s stuff (which is still mindblowing of course).

.

One exciting possibility is that someone going through the post-1988 vault will have the time (unlike Prince who worked at breakneck speed) to make better song choices and produce better compilations than Prince did. Even already released tracks might be reworked into new and superior compilations. For instance, maybe there's a whole album of 1996-era gems that I Like It There might better fit into than Chaos And Disorder.

[Edited 4/4/17 11:01am]

That the general public didn't care about at all. Especially from 1994 on. He couldn't sell 1 million albums from that point on. TGE might've sold 500,000? Release after release, albums falling out of the Top 200 very quickly.

And to the OP's question, a good study would be "Why?"

Was the general public simply oversaturated with Prince music? One album (at least) per year for over 15 years at that point plus side projects and movies would say yes.

Or, were people put off by his antics?

Or, was he quietly blacklisted because of the WB feud?

How to best study Prince's post-80s musical creations? With good cocktails, fun companions, maybe some incense and pillows, your favorite mood-lighting, and a nice bite to eat. That'd do nicely.

sro100 said:

With a big fat joint.

Hit it right out the box.

I once read someone describe Prince as "the worlds most famous underground musician" which I've always found to be apt. After the name change and the "slave" era you really have to work to find the gems. There was a lot more stuff being put out but, minus the editing and careful planning of WB, the consistency really suffered.

The RANGE of the material improved for sure (along with the quantity) with elements of jazz, hip hop, blues, and fuzz tone hard rock, and the material took mostly took a more organic feel with a much heavier bottom end that led to a lot more heavy, hard funk. I think working with drummers like John Blackwell and Michael Bland helped with that element and that working more with live bands helped in general. Prince still had a frustrating tendency to overproduce though that brought a slickness to the sound so it's sort of a double sided coin. Songs like "Fury", for instance are flat and overpolished; robbed of their raw energy byt he time they make it to the album.

It's sort of like sorting through a giant jar of change instead of withdrawing 5 or 10 twenty dollar bills from an ATM or getting a big check in the mail, if that makes sense. You really have to hunt and work for the rewards post WB so the downside is there's not as much wall to wall greatness but the upside is that there's so much more material that you can usually find more stuff that suits your taste and it usually adds up to the same total.

I took to splicing together albums, weeding out the stuff that didn't do it for me (a lot of ballads until I created a garden that suited me. I prefered it that way really.

The biggest shame is that Prince was, for the most part, was absolutely destroying it live during these decades and the NPG bands he worked with were way better than the Revolution, but you have to find the bootlegs to really get to the meat of the matter. His sound became much more organic and spontaneous but his official live recordings usually didn't capture it. Oh, what might have been if he had followed other band's examples and let fans record from the osundboard and trade shows.

rusty1 said:

purplerabbithole said:

stuff

The bottom line is his 80's era is why Prince is a legend. He did nothing great after 1988.

He certainly did. Maybe not full albums but a LOT of individual tracks are on par with anything he did on Purple Rain or SOTT.