Speaking of legacy....it´s interesting that, at the same time that he wanted PP to become a museum, he did lots of things to sabotage his legacy. Sometimes, it seems he just wanted to be left alone.

BartVanHemelen said:

1725topp said:

.

This is an incredibly juvenile way to look at A MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS.

.

*

So, the issue of Prince desiring more control is not "bullshit,"

.

Yes it was. He boasted about the $100 million deal (which was a lie HE promoted in his press release, and WBR were upset at that BS.) Hell, D&P was him showing WBR "look I can be the responsible pop artist you want and make hit records and tour world wide etc." in order to get that huge deal. All that BS about control came after, when he needed a stick to beat a dog.

Hell, afterwards he worked with frikking Clive Davis -- how the fuck is that about wanting control?

Prince was using the MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS people to give them a finished album to promote and distribute on his behalf. Why gripe about this? He partnered with the record company without them handing him a lofty loan for recording expenses and binding him to another inequitable industry contract. And he, the independent, continued on with such deals with several other million dollar entertainment corporations. I don't think he had a problem with that beyond haggling the new deal with each company every time. He was feeling his independence and fueling his next project.

I fucking HATE writers like this who really just want to promote themselves with stupid fucking theses like this one. They want to show off their self-perceived insider knowledge so they can feel hip and cool. What the fuck ever. Any young person now or in the future who loves music is gonna fucking FIND Prince one way or another. and get their fucking MIND BLOWN into LITTLE TINY PIECES. They will NEVER BE THE SAME after. And then they will proceed to make a fucking HOME FOR LIFE in his catalog both sonic and spiritual. Just like all the rest of us did. Jesus, we haven't even seen the BEGINNING of Prince's popularity. Trust me, we haven't. There are going to be Broadway plays about Prince that will smash the records "Hamilton" is setting right now. There are going to be Purple Rain movie remakes that kdis will love and anyone who saw the original in a theatre will cringe at. All this and so much more is coming, one way or another. There is a trend of people trying to make Prince look stupid in a business sense (since they cannot diss his music without exposing their real agenda). These people belong to that rather large part of humanity that hates themselves. Deep down not only do they not like Prince, they fucking HATE Prince. MANY of these poeple wind up on Prince.org. The beauty Prince manifested here on Earth reminds them of their own ugliness, shortcomings, and self-perceived mediocirty...his boldness and confidence forces them to confront their insecurities. They hate him for making them confront themselves in this way. So any chance they get they diss him for something stupid, like his supposed lack of business acumen, they are all over that shit. Yeah, he got to produce his own records starting at age 18 because of his poor business sense. He managed to make a Hollywood blockbuster movie about his life when most American really didn't even know who the fuck he was yet because of his shitty business sense. Get the fuck out of here. Prince was a business and marketing fucking GENIUS amongst everything else.

Great rant hardwork! The title of this thread is strange too - keep flashing on the words Prince's Grave.

Ingela said:

leecaldon said:

Did he really mentor Mavis Staples? And Larry Graham is an odd omission from the list.

[Edited 12/3/16 10:24am]

..and why ain't I, and everyone on the org pictured on that image?

George Michael was mentored by Prince??

warning2all said:

No matter how big Prince was/Is, he could have been a whole lot BIGGER. He played by his rules, but they are not the ways of record companies & the music buying public. Now that he is gone, the Estate and whoever markets The Vault and Catalog will do things as they probably should have been done all along to give the public what it wants and make maximum $$$. He actually did a lot to hurt his brand, popularity, and sales. For better or worse he did it his way, and it's a testament to his talent and the wanting of the public to like him that he was as popular as he was. So kudos to Prince for doing things his way, but that way did a lot to affect his legacy.

After decades of touring and recording new albums, Prince had solidified a loyal and a permanent fan base. At the end of the day, he wanted two things:

1. Sole ownership of his music catalog and master recordings without them being commercialized, and

2. To cut out the middle man. He discovered his earning potential by touring and in self promotion and his interest in labels became for distribution purposes only.

rap said:

Ingela said:

leecaldon said: ..and why ain't I, and everyone on the org pictured on that image?

George Michael was mentored by Prince??

The poster is color coded with the key along the top. GM is in the emulated row. Agree Mavis Staples does not belong in the mentored - think Pops was hers. Cool poster tho.

Germanegro said:

BartVanHemelen said:

Prince was using the MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS people to give them a finished album to promote and distribute on his behalf.

.

Oh for fuck's sake, Clive Davis is mr hands-on like few others. And guess what happened? Prince started bitching about Clive being hands-on and giving him orders. That's how stupid Prince was. It also exposed his hypocrisy.

BartVanHemelen said:

Germanegro said:

Prince was using the MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS people to give them a finished album to promote and distribute on his behalf.

.

Oh for fuck's sake, Clive Davis is mr hands-on like few others. And guess what happened? Prince started bitching about Clive being hands-on and giving him orders. That's how stupid Prince was. It also exposed his hypocrisy.

Prince was many things...

But anyone who thinks he was stupid

IS STUPID

BartVanHemelen said:

Germanegro said:

Prince was using the MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS people to give them a finished album to promote and distribute on his behalf.

.

Oh for fuck's sake, Clive Davis is mr hands-on like few others. And guess what happened? Prince started bitching about Clive being hands-on and giving him orders. That's how stupid Prince was. It also exposed his hypocrisy.

The promotion for Rave was not good and Clive got canned because of it which Prince did not know about until later. Tell the whole story. Prince was not liked by the suits and was blackballed.

Germanegro said:

BartVanHemelen said:

Prince was using the MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS people to give them a finished album to promote and distribute on his behalf. Why gripe about this? He partnered with the record company without them handing him a lofty loan for recording expenses and binding him to another inequitable industry contract. And he, the independent, continued on with such deals with several other million dollar entertainment corporations. I don't think he had a problem with that beyond haggling the new deal with each company every time. He was feeling his independence and fueling his next project.

Exactly, he said that record companies had a role but he felt as a partner. Bart keeps bringing up stuff from the begining of his journey not how he evolved and changed his outlook as he went a long. He had no idea when he started battling with WB that he would be an independent artist by the end of the 90s. He made adjustments to his view and worked it very well for 20 years with music sales collasping the entire time.

BartVanHemelen said:

1725topp said:

.

This is an incredibly juvenile way to look at A MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS.

.

*

So, the issue of Prince desiring more control is not "bullshit,"

.

Yes it was. He boasted about the $100 million deal (which was a lie HE promoted in his press release, and WBR were upset at that BS.) Hell, D&P was him showing WBR "look I can be the responsible pop artist you want and make hit records and tour world wide etc." in order to get that huge deal. All that BS about control came after, when he needed a stick to beat a dog. Hell, afterwards he worked with frikking Clive Davis -- how the fuck is that about wanting control?

Why was SOTT released mate? Was it because WBR wouldn't let him put out a 3CD set? Was that before or after the $100 million deal?

How about Come/Gold? 2 albums is odd, but he was still producing hit singles. All 3 discs from the hits/b-sides broke the top 10 the year previous. Instead of letting him get on with it, they said no. They released "Come" anyway (though not before Prince stripped all the radio friendly songs) and then paid him an extra million dollars to release the black album the same year... 2 albums 1 year... which is what Prince wanted to do anyway. He even had the "hit" songs spread fairly evenly over both discs.

[Edited 12/5/16 7:03am]

BartVanHemelen said:

Germanegro said:

Prince was using the MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS people to give them a finished album to promote and distribute on his behalf.

.

Oh for fuck's sake, Clive Davis is mr hands-on like few others. And guess what happened? Prince started bitching about Clive being hands-on and giving him orders. That's how stupid Prince was. It also exposed his hypocrisy.

Hmm...oh, I guess if YOU were in Prince's place you would have played Clive Davis's game--I GET IT. Well, I guess Prince didn't give an eff about Clive's rep! Eh. What are you gonna do?

>

Open another classic BVH bitch-rant just like this one!

>

You call it stupid. I call it nervy.

no

Noodled24 said:

SimonCharles said:

Thank you, Bart. That was my initial response to that sentence too. As to the rest - I think only history will tell. WB and the family will put out music in much the same way the Reconrd Companies and families of other musicians who have died have done so. Time will be the main factor, once everything is put in order.

Let's not get carried away. WBR were good with Prince in the early days, and in return over that decade he made them hundreds of millions of dollars... something his music continues to do.

WBR didn't mind telling Prince his 3CD set had to be cut down to 2 CDs. WBR weren't shy about wanting hit singles.. and videos for singles although it was WBR who passed on the Big Daddy Kane version of Batdance. By the late 80s & early 90s they weren't exactly as hands off as they'd been in the early days.

They bitched about Prince releasing too much music, then proceeded to release FIVE CDs in a 2 year period.

Sometimes,Warners were right for example,when they saw early footage of the Graffiti Bridge movie,they tried to convince Prince to release it straight to video.but he insisted on a theatrical release I think we have to understand their point of view.They are a business.Truthfully,some of the things that Prince wanted to do (and was allowed to do) simply wasn't "smart" in a business sense.

purplepoppy said:

rap said:

George Michael was mentored by Prince??

The poster is color coded with the key along the top. GM is in the emulated row. Agree Mavis Staples does not belong in the mentored - think Pops was hers. Cool poster tho.

Didn't see that.

BartVanHemelen said:

Germanegro said:

Prince was using the MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS people to give them a finished album to promote and distribute on his behalf.

.

Oh for fuck's sake, Clive Davis is mr hands-on like few others. And guess what happened? Prince started bitching about Clive being hands-on and giving him orders. That's how stupid Prince was. It also exposed his hypocrisy.

The day Prince died must have been the happiest of your life!!

AnnaStesia91 said:

I think this article doesn't take into account the number of Prince fans that expose their children to him. My kids are 3rd generation P fans. I think we can all do our part by exposing our offspring and those around us as much as possible.

"We can all do our part". Strange wording. Manipulation has never sat well with me. I prefer to let loved ones find their own path. I'm not sure art appreciation is something that can or should pushed on to anyone. Art is in the eye of the beholder and all that.

Why would I want my Grandchild to be into a man who i first listened to neary 40 years ago and is now deceased?

Still love to listen to the music my parents played in the 1950/60s, and I know all the words. They had excellent (varied) taste in music and it schooled my ear. I went on to be a fan and more. Don't think playing what you like is forcing music on kids/grans.

TIME to show the general public what he's about and what he was made of......that should get the legacy in full gear

[Edited 12/5/16 18:31pm]

luvsexy4all said:

if they would release some of those aftershows ..people would start to get the picture..

duh..

luvsexy4all said:

luvsexy4all said:

if they would release some of those aftershows ..people would start to get the picture..

duh..

Praying to GOD that happens...

I dont care about anyone else...I want them for ME
ME
ME

BartVanHemelen said: He got waaaay more leeway than any comparable artist. Dude ate up the budget for three records on his first and WBR didn't blink. Dude wanted a bunch of demo-like songs released (one about incest) and WBR did so. Dude retracted an album mere days before release and WBR obliged. Etc.

.

Hell, just look at the records by The Time and Sheila E etc.

*

No one said he didn’t have latitude early, but, unless I’m mistaken, a lot of that was during the Mo Ostin administration. Toward the end of Ostin's tenure, Warner Bros. gave him less latitude, even if they were willing to pay him. Yet, remember, both 1999 and Sign "O" the Times had to be negotiated to a double-album and not a three album set. As for the records by The Time and Shelia, they were quality and sold so he delivered what he promised. Based on that, alone, he had a right to demand more latitude. I could see if The Time and Shelia E albums tanked, but the sold.

Also, according to Mo Ostin, Prince paid Warner Bros from his royalties to cover the cost that they had incurred pressing the Black Album.

*

BartVanHemelen said: This is an incredibly juvenile way to look at A MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS.

*

People want what they want. I’m sorry if the world doesn’t want what you want. What’s juvenile is not being able to see beyond your own desires. I have a friend who struggles to make ends meet as a writer, but he rejects about $20,000 a year simply because he only facilities creative writing workshops for college and advanced high school students. Most of the major money provided for creative writing workshops is for facilitating workshops for middle school and elementary students. That’s not his thing. It’s not what he’s comfortable doing. He has a great reputation for facilitating creative writing workshops, but no amount of money, as of yet, has gotten him to work with younger children. So, for some people, while money is important, and we all know money was important to Prince, control was equally important. I applaud anyone who is willing to live how they want to live, even if it impacts their pocketbook. I’m always amazed how folks want to count other people’s money or tell them how to earn or spend their money. Yes, it is a million dollar business, and Prince proved that he was willing to make money on his own terms no matter who it pissed off or how it hurt is bottom line. And, again, how juvenile can he be if he, again, was willing to pay Warner Bros to own his own masters or was willing to pay them for any costs they had incurred on his behalf. That sounds pretty mature to me.

*

BartVanHemelen said: Yes it was. He boasted about the $100 million deal (which was a lie HE promoted in his press release, and WBR were upset at that BS.) Hell, D&P was him showing WBR "look I can be the responsible pop artist you want and make hit records and tour world wide etc." in order to get that huge deal. All that BS about control came after, when he needed a stick to beat a dog. Hell, afterwards he worked with frikking Clive Davis -- how the fuck is that about wanting control?

*

Yes, and, as Alan Leeds stated, once Prince realized the entirety of the deal, that’s when he realized that he made a mistake. I never said that Prince was a smart or traditional business man per se. My point is that once he realized that the 100 million dollar deal was not all that the thought it was, especially as it related to how much music he could release and when he could release that music, that’s when he realized that he had signed a bad deal. Prince could have done a better job by saying, “Hey, I signed a bad deal, and now I want out of it.” Yet, even if he refused to acknowledge his complicity of the bad deal, it’s still not “bullshit” that he realized that he had, what he perceived as, a bad deal and did everything he could to get out of it. As for signing with Clive Davis, there are two points that you are missing. One, iirc, it was a “one-off” deal and not a long-term deal, and it allowed him to own his masters, did it not? (I may be wrong about the last part.) And while Davis was known as Mr. Hand’s On, Prince was also known as Mr. Hand’s Off. So, they both should have known what they were getting. (Davis probably went into the deal thinking “I can control Prince,” and Prince probably when into the deal thinking “I can control Clive.”) However, even with the Clive deal, Prince was getting what he wanted: payment for his music and having it released. Of course, the deal went sour, but, again, unlike the Warner Bros deal, he wasn’t chained to Clive and was able to move to his next deal, which means he had more control then than when he was with Warner Bros. Finally, returnning to Mo Ostin, Ostin stated that Prince wanted to control when and how much music he was able to release and to gain the ownership of his masters. That's directly from Mo Ostin. So, based on that, control and ownership were the essential issues Prince had with Warner Bros, unless you are calling Ostin a liar.

[Edited 12/5/16 19:05pm]

What percentage of artists own their masters, past and present, Ray Charles and?

SoulAlive said:

Noodled24 said:

Let's not get carried away. WBR were good with Prince in the early days, and in return over that decade he made them hundreds of millions of dollars... something his music continues to do.

WBR didn't mind telling Prince his 3CD set had to be cut down to 2 CDs. WBR weren't shy about wanting hit singles.. and videos for singles although it was WBR who passed on the Big Daddy Kane version of Batdance. By the late 80s & early 90s they weren't exactly as hands off as they'd been in the early days.

They bitched about Prince releasing too much music, then proceeded to release FIVE CDs in a 2 year period.

Sometimes,Warners were right for example,when they saw early footage of the Graffiti Bridge movie,they tried to convince Prince to release it straight to video.but he insisted on a theatrical release I think we have to understand their point of view.They are a business.Truthfully,some of the things that Prince wanted to do (and was allowed to do) simply wasn't "smart" in a business sense.

Can't argue with that. I think they also helped make D&P a better album. But it doesn't change the fact that by 1990, Prince had raked in hundreds of millions for WBR. Not just albums + singles but they were getting a slice of the tours too.

RE: WBR point of view. I see it in GB. But how much did Prince actually get away with (using their money) Prince covered the majority of the costs with thing like "The Black Album" being scrapped.

Goddess4Real said:

BartVanHemelen said:

purplerabbithole said:

But how many comments and how many people are actually watching the clips on youtube of Prince. When Beyonce has 300 million hits on quite a few of her songs, and Prince has less than 100,000 on most of his, that's a problem. His highest number of hits is approximately 40 million for the While my guitar gently weeps solo. To me, that is a red flag. I talked to a man my age (41) recently and we were talking about Prince. He respected his guitar playing and liked Purple Rain but knew very very little about his music. I recommended Prince's funky music (this dude and my brother were listening to quasi-funk bands from today) and he acted as if he didn't know Prince did funk music.

Ingela said:

I highly doubt his legacy will fade. Quite the opposite. There will be mainstream docs and movies. Will be included in contemporary music music sites, top 100 lists for the foreseeable future. There is just so much to explore and study. He's a deep subject for inquiry on a lot of levels. So I wouldn't worry about his legacy. He did just fine. Actually all his supposed "mistakes" he made while he was alive in dealing with contemporary audiences make him even more fascinating now. On Youtube i came along across a Madouse 8 post and sat there listening and reading what people were saying. And it just made me think how even on a side-project that contemporary audiences sat on, is hugely interesting. The Madhouse project alone a great eye opener. It's great music and even while he was alive undervalued and underappreciated by his contemporaries. And it's all held up so well. A lot of stuff for people to discover. For new generations to appreciate. He's only going to grow larger. Its like when Obi-Wan fights Darth Vader, he says: You can't win, Vader. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. That's Prince's legacy [Edited 12/3/16 9:33am]

Purplerabbithole,

I agree with your points about hits on YouTube. The estate needs to come up with a way for Prince to have a presence on YouTube because YouTube is such an important platform. So many young people (kids, teenagers, 20-somethings) listen to music on YouTube. I'm 30 and I listen to a lot of music on YouTube. As a 20-something, I listened to a lot of music on YouTube. I am no expert on the music industry, so I'm just throwing out ideas. Perhaps, the estate could put videos for some of the most popular songs on YouTube, e.g. When Doves Cry, Little Red Corvette, Kiss, Gett Off. This would allow for exposure to the younger generation. There has to be a certain amount of exposure in order to create interest.

--

The estate should also release some new songs the way that MJ's and Tupac's estates have. MJ had a hit a couple of years ago, "Love Never Felt So Good," and he had been dead for 5 years. Something similar needs to happen with Prince.

--

I also think that it would be good to consider a Broadway show of Purple Rain.

--

Publish a calendar that people can buy in bookstores.

--

Partner with a publisher to create children's books related to Prince. For example, there could be a biography of him. Teachers could read it in classrooms. Kids could read it in the library and use it for research. I started another thread suggesting that the estate make a children's book for Starfish and Coffee. The whole point is to introduce him to the younger generation, especially those children whose parents aren't Prince fans.

"Grave..." Unfortunate word choice.