CROWNS1 said:

Prince was self sabatoging.

Then that could be an expression of self-loathing.

anangellooksdown said:

Last night I was thinking about the magnimity - the enormous totality of all that Prince built and owned (this ONE person, from scratch, all by himself) - and had to run and manage and be responsible for. It was a lot to protect. And anyone who's a human on this earth (especially in recent years) knows, that some of the nicest people in the world will take advantage of you if you don't have good boundaries.

But were they boundaries or walls?

No one said nobody helped him. I don't think the original poster is trying to discredit Wendy and Lisa or any other of the amazing musicians who revealed to him different influences and helped fill out his sound (even occassionally cowriting songs).. But Prince was one of the more self sufficient musicians out there. Just look at his last concerts. Even Elton John doesnt do whole concerts with just his piano.

And he really did kind of come of nowhere where the music industry is concerned.

bonatoc said:

rap said:

He didn't do it ALL by himself.

I was going to say precisely that.

Another delusional thread, confusing the man with the public persona.

As far as I know, he wasn't a one-man-band on stage.




The only times he sounded truly happy, witty and playful
on tape ("When Doves Scream", the pizza-hamburgers-root beer-pussy "D.M.S.R" rehearsal, "Data Bank", etc.)
was when he was playing with his band (in other words, surrounded by friends).

If it wasn't for Chris Moon or Owen Husney, we wouldn't know his very existence.
Let's keep things real.

[Edited 8/27/16 21:33pm]

I agree.

But as much as I like the craziness and extravaganza of the TGE/Come/Chaos era,
one can consider it as being utterly paranoid.

The Paisley Park reclusiveness, the need to surround himself with yaysayers...
Prince was still funny, but in an agressive way.
Suddenly he wore a chain helmet, he was using "motherfucker" in every song...

I love "Days Of Wild", but it can be interpreted as a sect chant.
A sort of "Me against the world".
In reality, WB were just trying to make business because they had to be pragmatic.

When he recorded at Record Plant, Sunset Studio and such,
he was traveling, on the move, part of the world.
Recording in Paisley Park gave us very personal and interesting songs,
but it's a bit like Prince had become its own subject.

I wished for years that, having nothing left to prove,
he would collaborate with other "equally" talented people.

Instead, he was psycho-analyzing himself on record.
It's fascinating to listen to, and at the same time disturbing.

anangellooksdown said:

Last night I was thinking about the magnimity - the enormous totality of all that Prince built and owned (this ONE person, from scratch, all by himself) - and had to run and manage and be responsible for. It was a lot to protect. And anyone who's a human on this earth (especially in recent years) knows, that some of the nicest people in the world will take advantage of you if you don't have good boundaries. I don't blame him one bit for being as private and self-protective - and protective of his empire and music - as he was. He was a smart man to do so. Being protective gave him freedom to have peace, grow, and invite good people into his life who were trustworthy. Damaris Lewis comes to mind. She was a true friend to him and has remained so. There were others too. Even some of the young 'uns were wise and solid. This is one of the best example I've taken from Prince's life. No doubt as has been the trend since the latest news, there will be opposing opinions. No, he wasn't perfect. But i doubt this fact about him can be refuted. It must've been a lot of pressure for him sometimes.

AALD, I agree with all of your points. I also think that the tendency toward being private and self-protective possibly arose during his childhood and continued throghout the rest of his life. He had some trust issues that origniated in childhood due to the divorce of his parents, not being able to live with his mother after she remarried, and then when his dad kicked him out of the house. For someone so famous, there is surprisingly little information about his mother and the relationship that he had with her. I get the sense that he was not particularly close to her. He seemed to be closer to his dad. I've seen more photos of him with his dad and he also collaborated on some songwriting with his dad.

--

The relationship with one's parents sets the foundation for many other relationships in life, and one characteristic of his relationships with his parents is that there were trust issues and a lack of stability. Trust issues that begin in childhood often lead to a difficulty with forming healthy long-term relationships in adulthood. Perhaps the trust issues from childhood played a role in both of his marriages ending in divorce? Mayte has shared some information about what caused the divorce (related to their son and the miscarriage) while Manuela has shared next to nothing, so I won't speculate further on what led to the divorces. But generally speaking, the "baggage" that people bring to relationships (e.g. trust/mistrust issues) can influence the outcome of the relationships.

--

Prince did, however, seem to have more success with friendships and working relationships. I agree with you that Damaris was a very close friend of his. She knew him since 2010ish and was in his inner circle in the last years of his life. Kirk was a part of his life for 20+ years, Kim Berry was his stylist for 20+ years, he maintained a relationship with Sheila E. for 30 + years, so again, he had some success with friendships.

--

I do think it's interesting that he surrounded himself with so many younger women. While most of these were working relationships and/or friendships (e.g. Damaris Lewis, Judith Hill, Andi Allo, Misty Copeland), I do wonder if he was hoping that at some point, one of these friendships or working relationships could blossom into a serious relationship/marriage. A major benefit of being with a younger woman would be fertility, and I wonder if one of the reasons he surrounded himself with younger women was a hope that eventually, one of these relationships would pan out and he would be able to have children. On the flipside, maybe he enjoyed mentoring younger people in the music business and found that he worked better with women. That would also make sense.

rap said:

206Michelle said:

anangellooksdown said:

206Michelle said:

AALD, I agree with all of your points. I also think that the tendency toward being private and self-protective possibly arose during his childhood and continued throghout the rest of his life. He had some trust issues that origniated in childhood due to the divorce of his parents, not being able to live with his mother after she remarried, and then when his dad kicked him out of the house. For someone so famous, there is surprisingly little information about his mother and the relationship that he had with her. I get the sense that he was not particularly close to her. He seemed to be closer to his dad. I've seen more photos of him with his dad and he also collaborated on some songwriting with his dad.

--

The relationship with one's parents sets the foundation for many other relationships in life, and one characteristic of his relationships with his parents is that there were trust issues and a lack of stability. Trust issues that begin in childhood often lead to a difficulty with forming healthy long-term relationships in adulthood. Perhaps the trust issues from childhood played a role in both of his marriages ending in divorce? Mayte has shared some information about what caused the divorce (related to their son and the miscarriage) while Manuela has shared next to nothing, so I won't speculate further on what led to the divorces. But generally speaking, the "baggage" that people bring to relationships (e.g. trust/mistrust issues) can influence the outcome of the relationships.

--

Prince did, however, seem to have more success with friendships and working relationships. I agree with you that Damaris was a very close friend of his. She knew him since 2010ish and was in his inner circle in the last years of his life. Kirk was a part of his life for 20+ years, Kim Berry was his stylist for 20+ years, he maintained a relationship with Sheila E. for 30 + years, so again, he had some success with friendships.

--

I do think it's interesting that he surrounded himself with so many younger women. While most of these were working relationships and/or friendships (e.g. Damaris Lewis, Judith Hill, Andi Allo, Misty Copeland), I do wonder if he was hoping that at some point, one of these friendships or working relationships could blossom into a serious relationship/marriage. A major benefit of being with a younger woman would be fertility, and I wonder if one of the reasons he surrounded himself with younger women was a hope that eventually, one of these relationships would pan out and he would be able to have children. On the flipside, maybe he enjoyed mentoring younger people in the music business and found that he worked better with women. That would also make sense.

I don't think Prince had to leave his childhood home; I think he felt his stepfather was trying to buy his affections, and because at that age few of us have spiritual maturity, Prince might've gotten intolerant of that rather than tolerating the guy and accepting what was. I believe Prince worshipped his father in an extreme loyalty, which is also u healthy but also the norm. I also believe that when Prince left the house there might've been a sort of silent agreement that no one was happy, so Prince moved on. Good for him. Whatever happened, he was able to be freer and focus on the music he loved. And I think the liking young women thing romantically was more about purity than anything else. He did always like to be very "clean". Professionally I believe he enjoyed teaching young people. And he was always supportive of women. He was great at being their mentor. We have all been affected by our childhoods but darn, he did so well. I'd protect myself too if I was him. It's a spiritual principle to do so. We have a right to do that. Plus, he could then use what he had built to contribute in other ways later. Someone else mentioned that my thread was deludedly separating the man from the image. It is true that I like to point out the positive about Prince; I see no reason to put anything else on paper. Of course I have my thoughts about other things but I accept Prince as having not been perfect, as having made mistakes, as we all do. What came to me last night was this: from where he is now, there are things he would've done differently. Thanks for your comments Michelle.

AALD, You are correct about Prince's stepfather. Below is an excerpt from Prince: Chaos, Disorder, and Revolution by Jason Draper.
Source: http://www.popmatters.com/feature/141774-prince-chaos-disorder-and-revolution/

--

The Birds and the Bees

-----------------------------------------------

Edited to clarify that this next sentence is my analysis: Whatever expectations or dreams that John Nelson had for Prince having a music career, it seems likely that Prince greatly exceeded those dreams/expectations.

[Edited 8/28/16 19:20pm]

206Michelle said:

anangellooksdown said:

206Michelle said: I don't think Prince had to leave his childhood home; I think he felt his stepfather was trying to buy his affections, and because at that age few of us have spiritual maturity, Prince might've gotten intolerant of that rather than tolerating the guy and accepting what was. I believe Prince worshipped his father in an extreme loyalty, which is also u healthy but also the norm. I also believe that when Prince left the house there might've been a sort of silent agreement that no one was happy, so Prince moved on. Good for him. Whatever happened, he was able to be freer and focus on the music he loved. And I think the liking young women thing romantically was more about purity than anything else. He did always like to be very "clean". Professionally I believe he enjoyed teaching young people. And he was always supportive of women. He was great at being their mentor. We have all been affected by our childhoods but darn, he did so well. I'd protect myself too if I was him. It's a spiritual principle to do so. We have a right to do that. Plus, he could then use what he had built to contribute in other ways later. Someone else mentioned that my thread was deludedly separating the man from the image. It is true that I like to point out the positive about Prince; I see no reason to put anything else on paper. Of course I have my thoughts about other things but I accept Prince as having not been perfect, as having made mistakes, as we all do. What came to me last night was this: from where he is now, there are things he would've done differently. Thanks for your comments Michelle.

AALD, You are correct about Prince's stepfather. Below is an excerpt from Prince: Chaos, Disorder, and Revolution by Jason Draper.
Source: http://www.popmatters.com/feature/141774-prince-chaos-disorder-and-revolution/

--

The Birds and the Bees

John L. Nelson and Mattie Shaw divorced in 1968, and their ten-year-old son soon began shuffling from home to home. Prince’s father left his piano behind, giving the boy free reign to learn the instrument by himself. Mattie Shaw remarried a couple of years later, but Prince’s relationship with his stepfather, Hayward Baker, was fraught. “I disliked him immediately,” he recalled. “He would bring us lots of presents all the time, rather than sit down and talk with us and give us companionship.” One direct result of this was that it was left to Prince’s mother to teach him about the birds and the bees — which Prince once claimed she did by providing him with an assortment of Playboy magazines and erotic literature.

--

Prince’s parents’ split had a lasting effect — and not only on his sex education. Noting Prince’s later, well publicized quirks, Alan Leeds, his tour manager through most of the 80s, said: “His mother basically walked away from him, and his father struggled to raise him and threw in the towel.… It certainly doesn’t add up to a very secure, well-rounded individual.”

--

Whatever expectations or dreams that John Nelson had for Prince having a music career, it seems likely that Prince greatly exceeded those dreams/expectations.

Purple Hug

anangellooksdown said:

206Michelle said:

AALD, You are correct about Prince's stepfather. Below is an excerpt from Prince: Chaos, Disorder, and Revolution by Jason Draper.
Source: http://www.popmatters.com/feature/141774-prince-chaos-disorder-and-revolution/

--

The Birds and the Bees

John L. Nelson and Mattie Shaw divorced in 1968, and their ten-year-old son soon began shuffling from home to home. Prince’s father left his piano behind, giving the boy free reign to learn the instrument by himself. Mattie Shaw remarried a couple of years later, but Prince’s relationship with his stepfather, Hayward Baker, was fraught. “I disliked him immediately,” he recalled. “He would bring us lots of presents all the time, rather than sit down and talk with us and give us companionship.” One direct result of this was that it was left to Prince’s mother to teach him about the birds and the bees — which Prince once claimed she did by providing him with an assortment of Playboy magazines and erotic literature.

--

Prince’s parents’ split had a lasting effect — and not only on his sex education. Noting Prince’s later, well publicized quirks, Alan Leeds, his tour manager through most of the 80s, said: “His mother basically walked away from him, and his father struggled to raise him and threw in the towel.… It certainly doesn’t add up to a very secure, well-rounded individual.”

--

Whatever expectations or dreams that John Nelson had for Prince having a music career, it seems likely that Prince greatly exceeded those dreams/expectations.

Purple Hug

Right back at cha!

anangellooksdown said:

206Michelle said:

AALD, I agree with all of your points. I also think that the tendency toward being private and self-protective possibly arose during his childhood and continued throghout the rest of his life. He had some trust issues that origniated in childhood due to the divorce of his parents, not being able to live with his mother after she remarried, and then when his dad kicked him out of the house. For someone so famous, there is surprisingly little information about his mother and the relationship that he had with her. I get the sense that he was not particularly close to her. He seemed to be closer to his dad. I've seen more photos of him with his dad and he also collaborated on some songwriting with his dad.

--

The relationship with one's parents sets the foundation for many other relationships in life, and one characteristic of his relationships with his parents is that there were trust issues and a lack of stability. Trust issues that begin in childhood often lead to a difficulty with forming healthy long-term relationships in adulthood. Perhaps the trust issues from childhood played a role in both of his marriages ending in divorce? Mayte has shared some information about what caused the divorce (related to their son and the miscarriage) while Manuela has shared next to nothing, so I won't speculate further on what led to the divorces. But generally speaking, the "baggage" that people bring to relationships (e.g. trust/mistrust issues) can influence the outcome of the relationships.

--

Prince did, however, seem to have more success with friendships and working relationships. I agree with you that Damaris was a very close friend of his. She knew him since 2010ish and was in his inner circle in the last years of his life. Kirk was a part of his life for 20+ years, Kim Berry was his stylist for 20+ years, he maintained a relationship with Sheila E. for 30 + years, so again, he had some success with friendships.

--

I do think it's interesting that he surrounded himself with so many younger women. While most of these were working relationships and/or friendships (e.g. Damaris Lewis, Judith Hill, Andi Allo, Misty Copeland), I do wonder if he was hoping that at some point, one of these friendships or working relationships could blossom into a serious relationship/marriage. A major benefit of being with a younger woman would be fertility, and I wonder if one of the reasons he surrounded himself with younger women was a hope that eventually, one of these relationships would pan out and he would be able to have children. On the flipside, maybe he enjoyed mentoring younger people in the music business and found that he worked better with women. That would also make sense.

I don't think Prince had to leave his childhood home; I think he felt his stepfather was trying to buy his affections, and because at that age few of us have spiritual maturity, Prince might've gotten intolerant of that rather than tolerating the guy and accepting what was. I believe Prince worshipped his father in an extreme loyalty, which is also u healthy but also the norm. I also believe that when Prince left the house there might've been a sort of silent agreement that no one was happy, so Prince moved on. Good for him. Whatever happened, he was able to be freer and focus on the music he loved. And I think the liking young women thing romantically was more about purity than anything else. He did always like to be very "clean". Professionally I believe he enjoyed teaching young people. And he was always supportive of women. He was great at being their mentor. We have all been affected by our childhoods but darn, he did so well. I'd protect myself too if I was him. It's a spiritual principle to do so. We have a right to do that. Plus, he could then use what he had built to contribute in other ways later. Someone else mentioned that my thread was deludedly separating the man from the image. It is true that I like to point out the positive about Prince; I see no reason to put anything else on paper. Of course I have my thoughts about other things but I accept Prince as having not been perfect, as having made mistakes, as we all do. What came to me last night was this: from where he is now, there are things he would've done differently. Thanks for your comments Michelle.

I think it might well have been more serious than that. From what I understand from research Alex Hahn has been doing into P's childhood, the lyrics to Papa are autobiographical. I don't think he left just because he was intolerent of haywood trying to buy his affection. I think the man was abusive.

jayseajay said:

anangellooksdown said:

206Michelle said: I don't think Prince had to leave his childhood home; I think he felt his stepfather was trying to buy his affections, and because at that age few of us have spiritual maturity, Prince might've gotten intolerant of that rather than tolerating the guy and accepting what was. I believe Prince worshipped his father in an extreme loyalty, which is also u healthy but also the norm. I also believe that when Prince left the house there might've been a sort of silent agreement that no one was happy, so Prince moved on. Good for him. Whatever happened, he was able to be freer and focus on the music he loved. And I think the liking young women thing romantically was more about purity than anything else. He did always like to be very "clean". Professionally I believe he enjoyed teaching young people. And he was always supportive of women. He was great at being their mentor. We have all been affected by our childhoods but darn, he did so well. I'd protect myself too if I was him. It's a spiritual principle to do so. We have a right to do that. Plus, he could then use what he had built to contribute in other ways later. Someone else mentioned that my thread was deludedly separating the man from the image. It is true that I like to point out the positive about Prince; I see no reason to put anything else on paper. Of course I have my thoughts about other things but I accept Prince as having not been perfect, as having made mistakes, as we all do. What came to me last night was this: from where he is now, there are things he would've done differently. Thanks for your comments Michelle.

I think it might well have been more serious than that. From what I understand from research Alex Hahn has been doing into P's childhood, the lyrics to Papa are autobiographical. I don't think he left just because he was intolerent of haywood trying to buy his affection. I think the man was abusive.

Oh, I definitely think there were other problems. But I don't know if they (additional problems) had to do with the stepfather. Do you have any reference to that (a link, etc.)?

I don't read much about the mother, and the father left. We also know the father was very, very hard on P.

What I like is that in his last concert (or one of the last), P says "Love your parents."

All was forgiven.

God, he came so far.