TrivialPursuit said:

BartVanHemelen said:

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In fact, there is ZERO evidence of this happening. Please point to all those artists who "got their masters back" due to this law: it didn't happen.

Oh Bart, but it did!

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No it didn't. Prove it. Go on, do it. Should be easy as fuck, considering that said law has been in action for several years and numerous albums were released to which it applies. Go on, show me the list of all those albums where the rights changed hands.

Noodled24 said:

I can't say for sure because obviously I haven't seen any of the contracts but I wouldn't be surprised if Prince was able to get his masters back by agreeing to "remasters"

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That was undoubtedly part of the deal.

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I also wouldn't be surprised if Prince was attempting to fuck WB over one last time by only delivering new albums while subversively allowing Tidal to remaster his catalog and stream it before WB had the opportunity to release them.

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Oh come on, Tidal can't do shit. And Warners would be idiots if they'd allowed such a gaping hole.

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I also wouldn't be surprised if he took a reduced advance or fee from WB and instead asked for his masters back. I don't think his albums were pulling in millions of dollars, so handing them back early doesn't seem unfeasible.

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I really don't get why people fail to understand this: sure, taken by itself artist X or Y or Z might not be a big money maker. But it is the COMBINATION that creates additional value: instead of having a catalog of 50 artists and 200 hits, you now have a catalog of 1000 artists and 1500 hits. And now you can negociate a much better deal, because if they don't have your catalog, that streaming service is missing a significant chunk of music. And if streaming service X does not have it but service Y does, then consumers are more likely to choose a service that has that wider choice.

BartVanHemelen said:

TrivialPursuit said:

https://youtu.be/GS_S88t8ZEE?t=54m30s

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Oh please, Anil Dash is a fanboi and has often posted outright bullshit. Dude is king of the happy happy crowd. Always has excuses for whatever shite Prince was pulling. His "Prince was a geek" propaganda is just ridiculous and can easily be disputed by pointing to the ENDLESS LIST OF LAWSUITS Prince started against websites for such nonsense as photos of people showing their tattoos.

Well we know you're not a Prince fan, on any level. If I had to choose between believing Anil Dash, or you, Anil (a guy I know) is at the top of my list any ol' day of the week. You, sir, have no real interest in Prince, his music, or otherwise. Dash is a brilliant guy, and has talked to 100x more people than you ever will, who were close to Prince, and know the truth. #YouTried

morningsong said:

Financial terms and length of the licensing deal were not disclosed; nor does the announcement make clear on whether the artist is gaining ownership of his catalog all at once; or more likely as each album becomes eligible for copyright termination.

This is what I was afraid of. What article is this from?

AndrePatrone said:

morningsong said:

Financial terms and length of the licensing deal were not disclosed; nor does the announcement make clear on whether the artist is gaining ownership of his catalog all at once; or more likely as each album becomes eligible for copyright termination.

This is what I was afraid of. What article is this from?

Billboard.com I'd post the link but I saved it at another computer I don't have access to right now.


Why would that make you afraid?

[Edited 8/8/16 11:35am]

That picture up top was taken outside Prince's childhood house off of Russell Avenue.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9910757,-93.3107989,3a,75y,166.83h,98.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEKiCkZ4pudU7UM-GtKkzBQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Someone asked "How do you know for certain?"

That someone was the OP -- so right back at him, how does he know for certain?

I mean thank you very much for that post, but the effort it took to format it alone gives you away.

to me this thread implies he was killed ...

luvsexy4all said:

to me this thread implies he was killed ...

Oh what the hell, might as well throw that in too.

morningsong said:

morningsong said:

This deal marks a new era as the ability to terminate master recording copyright after 35 years was granted in the Copyright Revision Act of 1976 and became effective in 1978, the year that Prince's debut album came out. Prince albums have scanned 18.5 million units in the United States since Nielsen SoundScan's inception in 1991; albums issued by Warner Bros. Records have sold 14.3 million units, Billboard calculates based on SoundScan's data. As 2013 loomed, record label executives and artists managers said that they were unsure how copyright terminations and ownership reversions would play out as they expected a precedent-setting court case to decide whether the "work-for-hire" clause in standard recording contracts could successfully be challenged by artists. Works created under work-for-hire contracts are not eligible for copyright reversion. But privately some label executives have also said that in some instances the wiser course might be to negotiate the reversions and retain control of issuing artists' catalog eligible for copyright terminations. In cutting what appears to be a landmark deal, Prince has chosen to remain with the label that was the subject of his ire back in the 1990's avoiding a risky and costly legal battle and still regains ownership of his catalog. Financial terms and length of the licensing deal were not disclosed; nor does the announcement make clear on whether the artist is gaining ownership of his catalog all at once; or more likely as each album becomes eligible for copyright termination. The Warner Music Group decline to provide further comment on the details of the deal. But Warner Bros. Records chairman and CEO Cameron Strang said in a statement: "Everyone at Warner Bros Records is delighted to be working with Prince once again: he is one of the world's biggest stars and a truly unique talent. We are also very excited about the release of new and re-mastered music from one of his greatest masterpieces." [Edited 8/7/16 8:12am]

Well the music on Tidal is listed as NPG records under a license to Warner Brothers. So maybe he was getting them back one year at a time. Not really sure. In the end whatever the arrangement it did allow for his whole catalogue to be availble to masses and with his death if he did not cut this deal who knows what would have happened to the WB releases. Makes me wonder if he knew his time was short.

Aerogram said:

Someone asked "How do you know for certain?"

That someone was the OP -- so right back at him, how does he know for certain?

I mean thank you very much for that post, but the effort it took to format it alone gives you away.

I dont know at all, I'm just asking the question. Honestly, I didn't expect the pasted section (the part about the 92 contract) of the article to take up so much space.. so i highlighted and added pictures to motivate at least some people to read

Really for me its just like: "yo..dude spent A LOT of his life and energy drawing our attention to the nature of business and copyright law.."

..i know i wasnt the only one who found it odd for him to return to WB...and to be honest I just shrugged it off until i found the museum link to NPGOnlineLTD.com

NONE of this shit could be true obviously. I'm not that dense you guys.

rogifan said:

morningsong said:

Oh what the hell, might as well throw that in too.

It was the illuminati.

it only appears that way cuz of the Sam cooke article. thats a rabbit hole too deep even for me

I not alex jones you guys.

a EMBARRASINGLY BIG Prince fan? sure.. but reptilian catholic zionist bilderberg members had nothing to do with the death of Prince.

AndrePatrone said:

7: ?: when are you gonna release you're re-recorded catalog of past albums?

: There is a major issue of concern 4 ALL artists with this so-called "work4hire" situation. Starting in 2013, eye will start getting THE PRINCE MASTERS back one by one, every year, under current copyright law. Some people who wish 2 rob artists of this right, r seeking 2 disrupt this. If u would like 2 know more and b a part of the movement 2 stop this act...watch r site: www.NPGOnlineLTD.com cuz it's ON!

basically I'm asking if you think Prince knew what he was talking about when he wrote this? Or was he so powerful upon returning several years later, that they just signed away what was CONTRACTUALLY "their" masters under "work for hire"...even though they were already generating income on spodify and through various retailers.

what Prince wrote ^^^^ (or , rather) seems more likely to me

AndrePatrone said:

AndrePatrone said:

7: ?: when are you gonna release you're re-recorded catalog of past albums?

: There is a major issue of concern 4 ALL artists with this so-called "work4hire" situation. Starting in 2013, eye will start getting THE PRINCE MASTERS back one by one, every year, under current copyright law. Some people who wish 2 rob artists of this right, r seeking 2 disrupt this. If u would like 2 know more and b a part of the movement 2 stop this act...watch r site: www.NPGOnlineLTD.com cuz it's ON!

basically I'm asking if you think Prince knew what he was talking about when he wrote this? Or was he so powerful upon returning several years later, that they just signed away what was CONTRACTUALLY "their" masters under "work for hire"...even though they were already generating income on spodify and through various retailers.

what Prince wrote ^^^^ (or , rather) seems more likely to me

Well damn, he said it already. So, sounds to me like he's concerned that the ACT itself is under attack and if it goes away so does the deal for him. He's trying to encourage people to keep the struggle going.

does anyone know if the rerecorded albums he did r in the hands of bootleggers?

morningsong said:

AndrePatrone said:

This is what I was afraid of. What article is this from?

Billboard.com I'd post the link but I saved it at another computer I don't have access to right now.


Why would that make you afraid?

[Edited 8/8/16 11:35am]

because it would've been nice for him to have passed with full inheritence after drawing such a prominent line in the sand

BartVanHemelen said:

TrivialPursuit said:

https://youtu.be/GS_S88t8ZEE?t=54m30s

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Oh please, Anil Dash is a fanboi and has often posted outright bullshit. Dude is king of the happy happy crowd. Always has excuses for whatever shite Prince was pulling. His "Prince was a geek" propaganda is just ridiculous and can easily be disputed by pointing to the ENDLESS LIST OF LAWSUITS Prince started against websites for such nonsense as photos of people showing their tattoos.

and you're just sad

AndrePatrone said:

I wonder how much of album sales losses tied into his masters being released by said date? He took some serious losses contractually if the numbers are correct. There seems to be some truth to what is being said. Maybe there were some amendments/addendums added once the losses occured? I do not know how accurate the details in the links below are.

What were the specifics o...Music Fans

"Just How Princely Is Prince's Deal?"

TrivialPursuit said:

AndrePatrone said:

Noodled24 said:

I doubt it. He never actually changed his name to

I can't say for sure because obviously I haven't seen any of the contracts but I wouldn't be surprised if Prince was able to get his masters back by agreeing to "remasters"

I also wouldn't be surprised if Prince was attempting to fuck WB over one last time by only delivering new albums while subversively allowing Tidal to remaster his catalog and stream it before WB had the opportunity to release them.

I also wouldn't be surprised if he took a reduced advance or fee from WB and instead asked for his masters back. I don't think his albums were pulling in millions of dollars, so handing them back early doesn't seem unfeasible.

So

1.) I can believe the name change wasn't literal, for one - PRN would cease to recieve royalties if he truly no longer existed as a copyright holder. I can't imagine our guy being too keen on that.

More obviously, it's not legally possible to change your name to a symbol.

2.) I'm curious - why do you believe agreeing to remaster would be in the interest of Warners during negociatations? Re-releasing remastered versions of albums is indeed lucrative but only in the sense that publishing royalities can be accrued to the original copyright holders. If PRN originally signed away the bulk of his publishing (again, standard in recording contracts..even for an artist of his stature) remasters would only amount to a few pennies more. I can't imagine our guy settling for that. Especially after alienating much of his core-audience and being virtually blacklisted for seeking FULL ownership.

When the WB exec issued the press release they stated that remasters would be coming. Which seems to indicate Prince had agreed to this... to some degree.

How much money do you think albums like ATWIAD were making? I'd say probably less than a million dollars a year... probably a lot less.

I don't think it's unfeasable that Prince would agree to let WB issue remasters thus allowing them a final cash-in on his back catalog. In return Prince gets his masters back - a task he'd spent 20 years trying to accomplish.

After the success of the Musicology tour and subsiquent tours Prince wasn't broke. He didn't need a $5 million advance to create a record. So he could have reduced this or waved it entirely in order to get back the masters... This could account for why Prince was "happy with the deal" rather than bragging about how much money he was making from the deal.

3.) I definitely think part of PRN's interest in Tidal was a FU to Warners, BUT at this present time streaming services account for a bulk of the listening public's consumption of music (see: master recordings). A good peice of evidence for how streaming royalties are negociated is the recent deal between SONY and Spodify.. without typing another book, most of the monies made from streaming is from generated ad revenue attached to the host site. Artists make less from streams then they did from record SALES and even then they only got pennies on a dollar. Streams amount to 0.0000654 cents when you get down to it (obviously not an exact figure - see this link for in depth details), so streaming would only "hurt" Warners if they didn't still own the masters and couldn't cut a deal with TIDAL (or elsewhere) to make up for projected loss. We're talking about a record company with several decades of experience, and one of the last living showmen. His WB albums are arguably worth more now (even before his death) than they ever were considering how hard to find they were. The ad revenue generated from PRN's core would (will ) be ..well alot.

If most people listen to music via streaming services... and Prince has Tidal quietly remaster his entire catalog... When WB releases CD versions of remasters... who's left to buy them? The 27 fans on Prince.org who only want CDs? Fuck you Warner Brothers.

and 4.) reduced fee in exchagne for certain lee-ways ..i'll accept that. but again, this industry is generations deep in screwing creatives out of their intellectual property. As a businessman, I ask myself (in WarnerBros place): why wouldn't I cover my ass on all sides

The industry has a lot of experience in doing things their way.

Regardless, WB appear to have signed a deal with Prince which allowed him to continue doing whatever he wanted regardless of what WB wanted...

He forced their hand to release Plectrum Electrum... + AOA and there wasn't a remaster in sight. Then came HnR & HnR 2... still no remasters... By this point Tidal were doing their thing. So unless Prince was going to deliver to WB a second CD of outtakes to complement each album in his back catalog... who's gonna buy the remasters?

TrivialPursuit said:

Noodled24 said:

I doubt it. He never actually changed his name to

I can't say for sure because obviously I haven't seen any of the contracts but I wouldn't be surprised if Prince was able to get his masters back by agreeing to "remasters"

I also wouldn't be surprised if Prince was attempting to fuck WB over one last time by only delivering new albums while subversively allowing Tidal to remaster his catalog and stream it before WB had the opportunity to release them.

I also wouldn't be surprised if he took a reduced advance or fee from WB and instead asked for his masters back. I don't think his albums were pulling in millions of dollars, so handing them back early doesn't seem unfeasible.

Prince didn't agree to remasters just to get his masters back. That's ridiculous. In the early aughts, Prince talked to a reporter, and wondered why his catalog hadn't been remastered yet. He didn't own his shit at that point anyway.

I don't see how he would have got them back otherwise.

If he was relying on the automatic reversion then he'd have got back an album a year over 40 years... he'd have been close to 100 years old before he got them back.

WB weren't just going to give them back out the goodness of their hearts. The leverage Prince had was that his catalog had never been remastered... he'd never cashed in on "Deluxe" packages etc.

Tidal didn't remaster his catalog.

Yes they did.

Prince's catalog has been on multiple outlets over the years. People can stream shit all day, but true fans want to own the vinyl or CD.

Are you "King of the Fams"? If not please don't tell me what "real fans" want. You speak for yourself not for me or anyone else. I own every album, over 200 Bootlegs and a tamboracca.

Prince pulled his catalog from every other streaming service. He commited to tidal, supplying them with videos, and songs unavailable anywhere else.

He didn't take a reduced fee for anything. He did battle over what WB wanted to pay in the licensing fee vs what he thought was fair. That's why the initial news of the 2014 deal stalled for two years. An amount was being fleshed out.

Do you have a scan of the contract?

Deal don't stall for two years. Price is the first thing. They're either in the same ballpark or they're not. If the price isn't right then neither party would be interested in sitting at the same table.

Money at this point wasn't important to Prince... or at least not AS important as getting his masters back.

Option A) Live to 100 years old and the masters. they'll all revert back to him.

Option B) Offer WB a quick way to cash-in on his back catalog in return for getting the masters back early.

In fact, if you'd read not only the Org on this topic, but the inside of a record jacket, you'd see that it's "©2016 NPG Records, under exclusive license to Warner Bros Records". See, that's the switch.

Which record? Please don't say AOA... because after a 20 year fight to get his masters back he OBVIOUSLY wouldn't hand over the masters to his new album would he?

OF COURSE the newer albums would be licenced to a distributor.

Prince won.

Prince not only got his masters back but now Warner is paying him a license fee to handle the distribution.

That makes no sense though does it...

I'll be WB, You be Prince...

"Hi Prince great to be working with... oh hang on.. so you want me to hand over the masters to 30 albums... and you want me to distribute your new albums... and you want an advance for each of the new albums.... What's in it for me? Because if it's not fuck tonne of money I think I'll just keep your masters."

He could have said "no" to WB, held onto his masters, and put them elsewhere, or just not done diddly with them. Instead, because he's had a working relationship with WB, it was a deal that put Prince in control of the ownership, and still allowed a major record label to act as the distributor for those records. Yet even before that, Dirty Mind, Controversy, 1999, and Purple Rain were remastered by Bernie Grundman himself for release through a deal with Rhino. (We know the Bernie story because an Orger noted that they called Grundman mastering, talked to Bernie himself, and Bernie stated he remastered those particular albums from the master tapes.)

Bernie did say the remastered were done. But this was for a bizzare vinyl only remaster release with no bonus tracks...

Multinational corporations don't just give up a cash-cow for no reason. What exactly are you claiming WB got out of this deal?

It sounds like you're suggesting they entered the deal purely for the distribution rights to AOA + the other newer albums? Why on earth would they do that?

The facts are out there. So instead of coming up with conspiracy theories, or just odd notions, find the truth. It's there, and it's not hard to find. And isn't the truth always more interesting than fiction anyway?

Pot, Kettle, Black.

At least I stated I nor anyone else has the facts. Hence why we're all speculating in this thread. My point has simply been that for WB to simply hand back the masters is insane. Prince must have given them something in return.

You've simply claimed WB handed back masters potentially worth millions in order to secure distribution rights to albums worth a few hundredthousand dollars.

[Edited 8/13/16 7:17am]

Bart said:

I also wouldn't be surprised if Prince was attempting to fuck WB over one last time by only delivering new albums while subversively allowing Tidal to remaster his catalog and stream it before WB had the opportunity to release them.

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Oh come on, Tidal can't do shit. And Warners would be idiots if they'd allowed such a gaping hole.

Shift and return Bart...

Tidal has everyone who's anyone in music. They're also experts in audio compression. Even if they weren't able to remaster "in-house" Jay-Z has enough connections in the music business.

Warners didn't seem to notice the MP3 revolution despite one of their top artists predicting it would happen in the early 90s... They continued to do nothing about it until Apple took ownership of the entire music industry with iTunes.

Regardless we know that Prince did enter an agreement with WB, after which Prince continued to release music via Tidal bypassing WB entirely.

As we all know - the important part was making sure that WB didn't get a penny from the income he made from touring... which earned him tens of millions a year.

I also wouldn't be surprised if he took a reduced advance or fee from WB and instead asked for his masters back. I don't think his albums were pulling in millions of dollars, so handing them back early doesn't seem unfeasible.

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I really don't get why people fail to understand this: sure, taken by itself artist X or Y or Z might not be a big money maker. But it is the COMBINATION that creates additional value: instead of having a catalog of 50 artists and 200 hits, you now have a catalog of 1000 artists and 1500 hits. And now you can negociate a much better deal, because if they don't have your catalog, that streaming service is missing a significant chunk of music. And if streaming service X does not have it but service Y does, then consumers are more likely to choose a service that has that wider choice.

Once again... Shift + Return.

It's 2016... the prestige of a record label having a legacy artist on their books is gone. I understand what you're saying about the biggest pool of popular songs... but in regard to Prince, you can only really go to Tidal.

WB don't appear to have had anything to do with Prince's negotiations with Tidal?

Ultimately Prince would have got his masters back at a rate of 1 per year over the next couple of decades. But it seems likely he would have negotiated with an aim to get them back early. But WB wouldn't just hand them over. He must have given something up to get something back.

[Edited 8/13/16 11:33am]

BartVanHemelen said:

anildash said:

For the record: "In 2014, the Warner Music Group gave Prince ownership of his U.S. master recordings, through negotiation, instead of the two sides pursuing litigation to see if a typical major label recording contract's insertion of a work-for-hire clause would be recognized in court." http://www.billboard.com/...atest-hits It's almost like some of us know what we're talking about.

Well said Anil. BVH seems to be in a state of total denial or views his lack of empathy to the death of Prince as a strength rather than a weakness. He relies on his forced negative perspective to cloud the facts & as you have just shown hard core facts are a damn site more credible than hate filled comments.

Am I right in thinking you actually worked with prince or at least those close to him?