funksterr said:

databank said:

I've orgnoted the deleted thread list to you. When I know for sure the info comes from a specific former collaborator I've specified it. When I don't it means the info comes from Uptown/Nilsen/The Vault/Princevault. My list isn't by definition comprehensive but thougth I may have forgotten a few documented cases, there's no way I've forgotten dozens of them. Now do whatever you want with it but let's call it a day, I'm through your games and manipulations. Thank you, have a nice weekend.

[Edited 2/12/16 15:49pm]

I read your list, and it's exactly what I thought it was... something someone claimed in an interview somewhere. Not 'FACT', but a one-sided allegation. Prince said recently that a lot of those claims were false. I believe he is probably telling the truth.

You didn't cite examples of Prince stealing credit for whole songs, but instead examples of nit-picky things like who sang background, programmed a beat, or played a bassline here or there. Your Andre Cymone info is just flat out wrong. Andre Cymone has given interviews in recent years saying Prince never stole anything from him. Yes, he worked out a jam session with Lisa, Dez and Bobby that was similar to something Prince released. But Prince added enough to that song to make it into something new and better that what AC had. Same goes for JJ.

I'm not impressed.

I expected to see the songs Prince was sued over, but you didn't mention those. That's what I mean about your data being inaccurate and mostly relying on gossip and assumption.

On a sidenote I don't believe there's any recorded case where anyone ever sued Prince over credits, were there?

laurarichardson said:

databank said:

The hilarious thing is that I now realize that we are basically pleading for the same thing!

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While I claim that the info I've sent you seems reliable by every possible account and is the best we have so far (however I had no clue about the recent Cymone statement that P didn't steal anything from him. Do u have a link to that? I'd really like to read what he has to say regarding the Do Me Baby controversy), it involves 15 songs out of hundreds and my whole point from the begining was to debunk the BS some people are tryin' to spread here about Prince building a whole career out of stealing songs by the dozens (and since u never said otherwise, everything indicated u were among them while u were actually with me on that one!).

.

I've never claimed the data I submitted to you to be the fruit of my own research even though I maintain there's a difference between research/interviews of the people who attended an event and mere gossip or hearsay (again u're decredibilizing half of recorded human history by making such an amalgam)!

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I also still maintain u've been playing mindgames and lacked decency in the way you've contradicted yourself everytime it would appear to make you say the opposite of what u'd just said in order to make me look like the bad guy. But regardless I find this totally ridiculous that we are having a row over something we, in the end, agree on, that is if u're not here to play mindgames.

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And I stand by everything regarding the Josh thread where you have shown incredible laziness when it came to backing your statements up. No offense, u just have.

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Now since the misunderstanding seems solved I say we cut the crap and stop this ridiculous row and both move on and stop arguing. I want facts. U want facts. We disagree on what constitutes fact. OK. As long as you're not making-up shit out of the blue or trying to make shit into facts, that's fine by me.

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Peace.

I said all along that I neither agreed or disagreed with you because I hadn't seen the list of songs in question.

After seeing the list, I'm surprised that you are talking about really petty aspects of the recording and release process. You are forgetting that for a lot of associated artists, Prince is something of a winning lottery ticket. Their ears are wide open when they hear something he released. From a financial and an ego standpoint, they would love to be able to say 'Prince got that from me!'. And sometimes maybe he did, but it's all part of the process. So long as the final result is different enough.. no harm, no foul. You are also forgetting that music is a competitive business. In cases of deleted credits, if it was intentional, that would make sense given that someone has since left the fold, there may be contractual issues with the new label, the person is now a competitor, etc.. Prince is circling his wagons in those perhaps as maybe he should.

You claim your list is so reliable and the 'best we have so far'.... yet... David Z and Andre Cymone have disavowed the claims you are referencing. Both have admitted that the arrangements in question are not even their original work. And those admissions are not even, like, a recent thing. Andre said that during a radio interview that was podcast and discussed here on the org, 5 years ago, and David Z admitted he'd gotten his production of Kiss from a Tramps song, iirc, long before that. Either way Prince wrote the lyrics and melodies. How could you not know that??

What I said on the Josh thread is that your 'data' and 'facts' are inacurrate, outdated, and largely based on one-sided whispering behind Prince's back from people who have a limited perspective on his comings and goings and thought processes. The same goes for all this alleged 'research' which also can only include people willing to participate, and some of them may have an agenda. A lot of it relies on the perception and recollection of a single individual, SR.

I'm not saying Prince hasn't ever done anybody wrong. I'm not saying he's never stolen credits or songs intentionaly. IDK. I'm just saying you don't have enough reliable information one way or the other, but I see you reference it as 'facts' and 'documented'. It's your opinion, just like the rest of us have our opinions.


The lawsuiits were threatened, according to media reports anyway, over The Most Beautiful Girl and What's Cookin In This Book by Prince's sister (U Got The Look).

databank said:

jdcxc said:

databank said:

On a sidenote I don't believe there's any recorded case where anyone ever sued Prince over credits, were there?

His sister sued him over U Got The Look. She lost.

I forgot that one, my bad.

What I said on the Josh thread is that your 'data' and 'facts' are inacurrate, outdated, and largely based on one-sided whispering behind Prince's back from people who have a limited perspective on his comings and goings and thought processes. The same goes for all this alleged 'research' which also can only include people willing to participate, and some of them may have an agenda. A lot of it relies on the perception and recollection of a single individual, SR.

I'm not saying Prince hasn't ever done anybody wrong. I'm not saying he's never stolen credits or songs intentionaly. IDK. I'm just saying you don't have enough reliable information one way or the other, but I see you reference it as 'facts' and 'documented'. It's your opinion, just like the rest of us have our opinions.


The lawsuiits were threatened, according to media reports anyway, over The Most Beautiful Girl and What's Cookin In This Book by Prince's sister (U Got The Look).

Can you direct me to the Josh thread?

[Edited 2/15/16 7:39am]

funksterr said:

databank said:

The hilarious thing is that I now realize that we are basically pleading for the same thing!

.

While I claim that the info I've sent you seems reliable by every possible account and is the best we have so far (however I had no clue about the recent Cymone statement that P didn't steal anything from him. Do u have a link to that? I'd really like to read what he has to say regarding the Do Me Baby controversy), it involves 15 songs out of hundreds and my whole point from the begining was to debunk the BS some people are tryin' to spread here about Prince building a whole career out of stealing songs by the dozens (and since u never said otherwise, everything indicated u were among them while u were actually with me on that one!).

.

I've never claimed the data I submitted to you to be the fruit of my own research even though I maintain there's a difference between research/interviews of the people who attended an event and mere gossip or hearsay (again u're decredibilizing half of recorded human history by making such an amalgam)!

.

I also still maintain u've been playing mindgames and lacked decency in the way you've contradicted yourself everytime it would appear to make you say the opposite of what u'd just said in order to make me look like the bad guy. But regardless I find this totally ridiculous that we are having a row over something we, in the end, agree on, that is if u're not here to play mindgames.

.

And I stand by everything regarding the Josh thread where you have shown incredible laziness when it came to backing your statements up. No offense, u just have.

.

Now since the misunderstanding seems solved I say we cut the crap and stop this ridiculous row and both move on and stop arguing. I want facts. U want facts. We disagree on what constitutes fact. OK. As long as you're not making-up shit out of the blue or trying to make shit into facts, that's fine by me.

.

Peace.

I said all along that I neither agreed or disagreed with you because I hadn't seen the list of songs in question.

After seeing the list, I'm surprised that you are talking about really petty aspects of the recording and release process. You are forgetting that for a lot of associated artists, Prince is something of a winning lottery ticket. Their ears are wide open when they hear something he released. From a financial and an ego standpoint, they would love to be able to say 'Prince got that from me!'. And sometimes maybe he did, but it's all part of the process. So long as the final result is different enough.. no harm, no foul. You are also forgetting that music is a competitive business. In cases of deleted credits, if it was intentional, that would make sense given that someone has since left the fold, there may be contractual issues with the new label, the person is now a competitor, etc.. Prince is circling his wagons in those perhaps as maybe he should.

You claim your list is so reliable and the 'best we have so far'.... yet... David Z and Andre Cymone have disavowed the claims you are referencing. Both have admitted that the arrangements in question are not even their original work. And those admissions are not even, like, a recent thing. Andre said that during a radio interview that was podcast and discussed here on the org, 5 years ago, and David Z admitted he'd gotten his production of Kiss from a Tramps song, iirc, long before that. Either way Prince wrote the lyrics and melodies. How could you not know that??

What I said on the Josh thread is that your 'data' and 'facts' are inacurrate, outdated, and largely based on one-sided whispering behind Prince's back from people who have a limited perspective on his comings and goings and thought processes. The same goes for all this alleged 'research' which also can only include people willing to participate, and some of them may have an agenda. A lot of it relies on the perception and recollection of a single individual, SR.

I'm not saying Prince hasn't ever done anybody wrong. I'm not saying he's never stolen credits or songs intentionaly. IDK. I'm just saying you don't have enough reliable information one way or the other, but I see you reference it as 'facts' and 'documented'. It's your opinion, just like the rest of us have our opinions.


The lawsuiits were threatened, according to media reports anyway, over The Most Beautiful Girl and What's Cookin In This Book by Prince's sister (U Got The Look).

I stand corrected then regarding André, though then I can't help wondering why the info was never corrected on Princevault. Thing is who knows who may have an agenda when. For all we know maybe ANdré lied in 1995 when talking to Nilsen, then changed his maind. Or maybe someone lied to Nilsen and André corrected the info. Or maybe even it's true but André wants to make peace with prince and decided to deny. A proper approach, the way historians work, would then be to say: the song was copyrighted by Prince at such date. X later claimed that he has stolen such song or bassline from André. Y later claimed X's claims were inaccurate. Same goes with Well Done or Power Fantastic and so on then: Song copyrighted by Prince. A source later claimed that the truth is that blah blah blah. Let the reader decide. We can't discard testimonies from third parties but I agree than caution may justify being less definitive about the infos at hand. In the case of Sandra St. Victor's songs though, there's little room for doubt when it come to credits since we have her original demos. But still OK, things should be sourced and put in context.

.

However I'm very surprised about David and Kiss. I clearly remember an article I've read not so long ago (maybe 2011 or 2012) where David himself described his recording session with much precision, including gear, and said he worked only based on the demo we have of the song with only one verse and chorus on guitar, and wrote the additional lyrics. It was not hearsay, it was him speaking, and it was very specific. So I'm VERY confused here if he later said this was utter BS.

.

Regarding the research we have it may be outdated and all but the problem is that we need a place where inaccurate infos can be corrected. I've spotted a lot of things that are on Princevault or the Vault book that have been contradicted since by other statements and research but the problem is that we all work separately, Princevault isn't always aware of that stuff (they're doing an amazing work but there's a small team it seems and I guess they also have jobs and families), and no one shares infos except in a complete random manner here. It's about time there's a board or a community where people can share/discuss sourced infos infos about recording sessions and discography and ONLY do that (i.e. it's not lost in between opinions about albums, "what if" tracklists, nonsense, Prince's haircut and other stuff). I'd like to think of a way of doing that if other people showed any interest. There's a LOT that could be uncovered, discovered and solved working that way. For example I often created threads with very specific questions in the past, for my discography research, but because they were lost in a jungle, most of the people that could have had maybe shared the information I was looking for probably never even found the thread before it was swallowed by page 2.

.

My infos regarding Josh and Hannah come from public statements made by Hannah and Josh themselves saying that she first heard from Prince, ever, in Summer 2012 and that Josh only met Prince later, through her. I can't think of a secret agenda here like Hannah and Josh plotting with Prince saying "OK let's pretend we met a year after we really met so people won't suspect Josh was the mastermind behing Extraloveable 2011". This is silly. This is real time infos about current events, not old testimonies by former collaborators who may hold a grudge.

.

And just to be clear in case I wasn't: I've always defended the fact that as far as we know Prince is, and always was, the main creative force behind his work. People will tell he stole everything from others, that most of his songs were the result of collective jam sessions, or that he wouldn't have been Prince withgout W&L and so on. This is BS. I wanted to quote the VERY RARE cases where credits were disputed. Maybe it should be done with more caution, as explained above, but my original purpose was to say there's doubt about 15 songs among a thousand, so the whole debate regarding Prince being a thief is gross propaganda by people with an agenda.

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And finally I apologize if I'm sometimes too harsh in my replies. I'm just TOTALLY FED-UP because I'm trying to live-up my passion with commitment and there's lot of irresponsible trolling and nonsense over here, that in the end prevent this community from being what it could be: a community where people seriously discuss their passion with a desire to learn, not just a desire to spread their holy gospel or spill their guts about how they feel about said passion. I could of course go elsewhere except... there's no elsewhere: the Org AFAIK is the only truly active and international online Prince fans community.

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Peace.

databank said:

the Org AFAIK is the only truly active and international online Prince fans community.

Ah yes, the crumbling of a fan base....

Anyway, I think that back in the day Prince was somewhat naive about songwriting credits and what it all means in the grand scheme of things. Just like he was naive in signing those WB contracts that gave them ownership of his masters... Now I think he is much more savvy, but back then he just didnt seem to care about all that stuff. Hence, he got it wrong sometimes.

jdcxc said:

BartVanHemelen said:

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Sanctuary, I'll Never Open My Legs Again, Love Is: that's three SSV songs Prince took WITHOUT HER PERMISSION. Go check the albums those songs appear on and compare the credits to the ones at ASCAP and BMI. There's also How We Livin'. Again, this is well known. She talked about this on TV.

You're smarter than this. Where is Prince's side to your argument? Why did Sandra not sue?

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Yeah sure, the poor struggling artist can take on the rich pop star. Go ask Levi how that works out.

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Prince has written 1,000+ songs...doesn't he deserve the benefit of the doubt instead of being labeled a fraud or thief. It is common for there to be songwriting beefs due to the tension between commercialism and art. Every major songwriter has had their share of credit disagreements.

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The FACT of the matter is there are at least FIVE songs where SSV gets credited as a writer. We've heard her story and it sounds very plausible since Prince has pulled the same shit with other artists (taking their music and "improving" it).

laurarichardson said:

databank said:

-/- But she did get credit for the songs!!! So where is the theft? As far as the other people he has no way of knowing if they were really involved with writing the songs? Also why don't people copyright the songs. If music was copyright and the others writers were listed they could go after Prince at seems like their beef is with Sandra.

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I suggest you try to do the same with a Prince outtake: record and release your version of it. And then when Prince complains, tell him that you did credit him.

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Let's see how that works out.