databank said:

feeluupp said:

It seems like the past 4 years have been a struggle in terms of Prince having a solid record distribution deal...

With 20Ten only being released in a few countries in the Daily Mail in Europe, and having a hard time distributing any new albums with any record lables in the U.S. since 2014...

In the summer of 2014 we heard the new deal with WB, receiving his masters back... The PR Delux Remaster that never came through, the 2 new albums AOA and Plectrum Electrum, a recent speculated summer album named Free Urself...

But what do you think is the future of Prince releasing albums again with real record labels after the very poor commercial performance of his recent 2 albums...

According to the Global Album Sales Chart

AOA was on the TOP 40 for 3 weeks, fell off the TOP 40 in the 4th week so sales after that were all below 10k.

Plectrum had dismal dismal sales... Fell off the TOP 40 in the second week.

AOA: 173K world wide

Plectrum: 69K world wide

[Edited 6/24/15 13:12pm]

Prince never had issues getting a record or distribution deal. The Target and newspapers distribution of the LF trilogy and 20ten respectively was a choice, he deliberately broke his deal with Kobalt to get back with WB and sales of the last 2 albums, while weak by Prince's classic standards, are reasonable in the current context of the music industry: most of the artists I listen to hardly sell that many copies, and still they have record deals. Majors don't have the same expectations they used to have, and there are hundreds of indie labels who make their dough selling a few dozen thousands of anything they release at the very most. Imagine that Jesse Johnson sold 400,000 copies of Shockadelica in 1986 and at the time this was considered a disappointment by his label, while today a "small" act like Jesse was at the time would struggle to sell 20,000 copies. People on the org have to stop thinking sales as if it was 1991.

The problem isn't the labels, the problem is Prince himself: he doesn't consider record sales sufficient enough to be worth the effort, live shows have become is primary source of income and this is why he doesn't care for releasing albums anymore, he said it himself in an interview. I think it's a pity, because since he keeps recording as much as he used to he would still make some small cash by sellinbg the albums, but obviously this is not how he thinks, at least at the moment.

What artists you are listening to are you talking about ? I guess they never sold millions records like Prince, and I bet their contract deal is not of the same price they paid to Prince. This has nothing to do with the situation here.

AOA and PLEC were flops, especially when you consider the music industry of today.

In term of album sales, neither of the 2 albums were on the top 300 best selling albums in the USA, the country where it sold better.

In term of digital singles sales, it is close to nothing.

In term of streaming, Prince his far, far away from all its competitors.

bashraka said:

I think Prince will always find a major record company to release an album

.

Nope. Just check the past five+ years.

thedoorkeeper said:

Has anyone representing WB given any indication of being unhappy with Prince or that their contract is null and void? Unless there is evidence of WB's ending their relationship there is no need for worrying....yet.

.

WBR don't give a fuck about his new music not selling. They're happy they've tied him to yet another long-running contract that keeps his back catalogue under their control, everything else is a bonus.

databank said:

feeluupp said:

I agree... All these old time acts you see on the top selling albums of 2014- 2015, including one that has passed away (MJ) sold because of promotion...

	Soundtrack - Frozen Walt Disney - 7.057.000 copies
	Taylor Swift - 1989 Big Machine - 4.619.000 copies
	Ed Sheeran - X Atlantic / Watertower - 3.486.000 copies
	Coldplay - Ghost Stories Parlophone / Atlantic - 3.037.000 copies
	Sam Smith - In The Lonely Hour Capitol - 2.879.000 copies
	Beyoncé - Beyoncé Columbia - 2.289.000 copies
	One Direction - Four Syco Music - 1.936.000 copies
	Pharrell Williams - G I R L Back Lot / Columbia - 1.879.000 copies
	Lorde - Pure Heroine Republic / Universal - 1.815.000 copies
	Pink Floyd - The Endless River Rhino / Columbia - 1.717.000 copies
	One Direction - Midnight Memories Syco Music - 1.708.000 copies
	Katy Perry - Prism Capitol - 1.620.000 copies
	AC/DC - Rock Or Bust Columbia - 1.539.000 copies
	Michael Jackson - Xscape MJJ / Epic - 1.523.000 copies
	Imagine Dragons - Night Visions Interscope - 1.517.000 copies
	Barbra Streisand - Partners Columbia - 1.412.000 copies
	Eminem - The Marshall Mathers LP 2 Aftermath / Interscope - 1.389.000 copies
	Stromae - Racine Carrée Vertigo / Mercury - 1.386.000 copies
	5 Seconds Of Summer - 5 Seconds Of Summer Capitol - 1.284.000 copies
	Soundtrack - Guardians Of The Galaxy: Awesome Mix Vol.1 Hollywood - 1.264.000 copies
	Lana Del Rey - Ultraviolence Polydor / Interscope - 1.203.000 copies
	Arctic Monkeys - AM Domino Recordings - 1.187.000 copies
	Helene Fischer - Farbenspiel Polydor / Universal Germany - 1.180.000 copies
	Bruno Mars - Unorthodox Jukebox Atlantic - 1.167.000 copies
	Pentatonix - That's Christmas To Me RCA - 1.134.000 copies
	Avicii - True Positiva / Island - 1.099.000 copies
	OneRepublic - Native Interscope - 1.087.000 copies
	Maroon 5 - V Interscope - 1.071.000 copies
	Ariana Grande - My Everything Republic - 1.062.000 copies
	AKB 48 - Tsugi No Ashiato King Records Japan - 1.052.000 copies
	Bastille - Bad Blood Virgin - 980.000 copies
	John Legend - Love In The Future Columbia - 945.000 copies
	Michael Bublé - Christmas Reprise - 941.000
	Foo Fighters - Sonic Highways Roswell / RCA - 925.000 copies
	Bruce Springsteen - High Hopes Columbia - 914.000 copies
	Linkin Park - The Hunting Party Machine Shop / Warner Bros. - 900.000 copies
	Black Keys - Turn Blue Nonesuch - 877.000 copies
	Eric Church - The Outsiders EMI Nashville - 863.000 copies
	London Grammar - If You Wait Metal & Dust Recordings - 849.000 copies
	Daft Punk - Random Access Memories Daft Life / Columbia - 844.000 copies

Except for a very few names such as Springsteen, this list is made of whores selling vacuum cleaners to debilitated audiences, I'm sure glad Prince isn't making the kind of "music" that allow today's whores to sell records by the hundreds of thousands

Don't be dishonest, there is a gap between selling an album 70.000 ex worldwide and 844.000 ex, like DAFT PUNK, the last in this list (who already sold 3 millions more the year before).

databank said:

Prince never had issues getting a record or distribution deal.

.

Nonsense. Just look at how long he peddled PLecElec around and finally had to coerce WBR to release it last year. That UK tour in early 2014 was all about selling PLecElec, and nobody wanted it (certainly not for the price Prince demanded).

.

The Target and newspapers distribution of the LF trilogy and 20ten respectively was a choice

.

No, they too were indications that the usual bunch of suckers weren't meeting his demands.

.

, he deliberately broke his deal with Kobalt to get back with WB

.

Because Kobalt probably rejected the tripe he wanted to release without committing to a significant promotional effort.

databank said:

feeluupp said:

It seems like the past 4 years have been a struggle in terms of Prince having a solid record distribution deal...

With 20Ten only being released in a few countries in the Daily Mail in Europe, and having a hard time distributing any new albums with any record lables in the U.S. since 2014...

In the summer of 2014 we heard the new deal with WB, receiving his masters back... The PR Delux Remaster that never came through, the 2 new albums AOA and Plectrum Electrum, a recent speculated summer album named Free Urself...

But what do you think is the future of Prince releasing albums again with real record labels after the very poor commercial performance of his recent 2 albums...

According to the Global Album Sales Chart

AOA was on the TOP 40 for 3 weeks, fell off the TOP 40 in the 4th week so sales after that were all below 10k.

Plectrum had dismal dismal sales... Fell off the TOP 40 in the second week.

AOA: 173K world wide

Plectrum: 69K world wide

[Edited 6/24/15 13:12pm]

Prince never had issues getting a record or distribution deal. The Target and newspapers distribution of the LF trilogy and 20ten respectively was a choice, he deliberately broke his deal with Kobalt to get back with WB and sales of the last 2 albums, while weak by Prince's classic standards, are reasonable in the current context of the music industry: most of the artists I listen to hardly sell that many copies, and still they have record deals. Majors don't have the same expectations they used to have, and there are hundreds of indie labels who make their dough selling a few dozen thousands of anything they release at the very most. Imagine that Jesse Johnson sold 400,000 copies of Shockadelica in 1986 and at the time this was considered a disappointment by his label, while today a "small" act like Jesse was at the time would struggle to sell 20,000 copies. People on the org have to stop thinking sales as if it was 1991.

The problem isn't the labels, the problem is Prince himself: he doesn't consider record sales sufficient enough to be worth the effort, live shows have become is primary source of income and this is why he doesn't care for releasing albums anymore, he said it himself in an interview. I think it's a pity, because since he keeps recording as much as he used to he would still make some small cash by sellinbg the albums, but obviously this is not how he thinks, at least at the moment.

.

I believe he shopped '20ten' around, and WB (and possibly others) didn't want it. Negotiations crumbled, he cut back the original '20ten' album, and "gave it away" via newspaper.

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

.

No, they too were indications that the usual bunch of suckers weren't meeting his demands.

.

, he deliberately broke his deal with Kobalt to get back with WB

.

Because Kobalt probably rejected the tripe he wanted to release without committing to a significant promotional effort.

Bart I know you have this obssession that Prince is being rejected by every label on earth and that PlecEl was rejected by Kobalt but look at their catalogue and see how many totally obscure artists they've signed and you'll realize there's no way they would reject a Prince album out of fear of low sales, + there's one thing you seem not to realize anyway, Kobalt, like LiveNation, is not a label in the classic sense of the term, they don't pay for recording sessions norproduction costs and don't get the masters, they just invest in manufacturing and promoting and get a share in return, therefore they are not in a position to dictate artists what they should release or not, this is basically their main asset by comparison to classic labels: giving freedom and ownership to their artists. Kobalt doesn't pay advance, never has never will, so it was never about how much Prince would ask either.

U know I respect your opinions but with this whole "labels reject Prince's music" business you are acting irrational and, I suspect, out of bad faith. It's your liberty but don't expect too many people to take you seriously. Peace

warning2all said:

Most record labels don't want to get into bed with this guy because he's too much of a headache to deal with, then there's no guarantee he'll promote the product anyways.

you just made a statement of fact that is iinaccurate. Give proof that most labels dont want to deal with hm or STFU..he has released albums on damn near every label on his own terms .. stop with the fucking conjecture. if the goal of the WB deal was to get his masters then he won, botton line

Giovanni777 said:

databank said:

Prince never had issues getting a record or distribution deal. The Target and newspapers distribution of the LF trilogy and 20ten respectively was a choice, he deliberately broke his deal with Kobalt to get back with WB and sales of the last 2 albums, while weak by Prince's classic standards, are reasonable in the current context of the music industry: most of the artists I listen to hardly sell that many copies, and still they have record deals. Majors don't have the same expectations they used to have, and there are hundreds of indie labels who make their dough selling a few dozen thousands of anything they release at the very most. Imagine that Jesse Johnson sold 400,000 copies of Shockadelica in 1986 and at the time this was considered a disappointment by his label, while today a "small" act like Jesse was at the time would struggle to sell 20,000 copies. People on the org have to stop thinking sales as if it was 1991.

The problem isn't the labels, the problem is Prince himself: he doesn't consider record sales sufficient enough to be worth the effort, live shows have become is primary source of income and this is why he doesn't care for releasing albums anymore, he said it himself in an interview. I think it's a pity, because since he keeps recording as much as he used to he would still make some small cash by sellinbg the albums, but obviously this is not how he thinks, at least at the moment.

.

I believe he shopped '20ten' around, and WB (and possibly others) didn't want it. Negotiations crumbled, he cut back the original '20ten' album, and "gave it away" via newspaper.

I seriously doubt it, WB Europe expressed interest in rereleasing the album with bonus tracks AFTER the newspaper edition, so if they were ready to release it when so many people already had a copy, I can't see why they would have refused it in the first place. Don't let Bart hypnotize you with his absurd theories

BartVanHemelen said:

thedoorkeeper said:

Has anyone representing WB given any indication of being unhappy with Prince or that their contract is null and void? Unless there is evidence of WB's ending their relationship there is no need for worrying....yet.

.

WBR don't give a fuck about his new music not selling. They're happy they've tied him to yet another long-running contract that keeps his back catalogue under their control, everything else is a bonus.

have you seen the contract..if not, stop ..period,, go back to work and dont have a visceral reaction to yet another thread,.. here is a fact that is undisputed Bart; he is doing better than you

RODSERLING said:

databank said:

Prince never had issues getting a record or distribution deal. The Target and newspapers distribution of the LF trilogy and 20ten respectively was a choice, he deliberately broke his deal with Kobalt to get back with WB and sales of the last 2 albums, while weak by Prince's classic standards, are reasonable in the current context of the music industry: most of the artists I listen to hardly sell that many copies, and still they have record deals. Majors don't have the same expectations they used to have, and there are hundreds of indie labels who make their dough selling a few dozen thousands of anything they release at the very most. Imagine that Jesse Johnson sold 400,000 copies of Shockadelica in 1986 and at the time this was considered a disappointment by his label, while today a "small" act like Jesse was at the time would struggle to sell 20,000 copies. People on the org have to stop thinking sales as if it was 1991.

The problem isn't the labels, the problem is Prince himself: he doesn't consider record sales sufficient enough to be worth the effort, live shows have become is primary source of income and this is why he doesn't care for releasing albums anymore, he said it himself in an interview. I think it's a pity, because since he keeps recording as much as he used to he would still make some small cash by sellinbg the albums, but obviously this is not how he thinks, at least at the moment.

What artists you are listening to are you talking about ? I guess they never sold millions records like Prince, and I bet their contract deal is not of the same price they paid to Prince. This has nothing to do with the situation here.

AOA and PLEC were flops, especially when you consider the music industry of today.

In term of album sales, neither of the 2 albums were on the top 300 best selling albums in the USA, the country where it sold better.

In term of digital singles sales, it is close to nothing.

In term of streaming, Prince his far, far away from all its competitors.

The fact that Prince sells low for an artist of his stature doesn't change the fact that he sells more than most artists with a record deal. Now if Prince will refuse a label's advance because he thinks it's not enough or a label declines to pay what he asks because they don't believe sales will be sufficient it's not the same as a label simply refusing to release Prince's music. Some very obscure labels have released Prince records (U Make My Sun Shine, TRC, NEWS, and the more recent Purple Music singles) and I doubt they paid a high advance, in fact I doubt they paid any advance at all. Kobalt also doesn't pay advances. Theorically advances allow an artist to make a living during recoring an album, which isn't an issue with Prince, so I don't even see the point in him asking for such a thing. I know he once complained that iTunes doesn't pay them, it's properly ridiculous. Prince owns his masters and pays for his production costs, he should be happy with getting sales money without any sort of an advance!

So my agrument still stands, even if P and certain labels couldn't agree on an advance, it has nothing to do with labels rejecting Prince's music in the absolute: if he won't take an advance or accept a modest one, he can release anything anywhere.

RODSERLING said:

databank said:

Except for a very few names such as Springsteen, this list is made of whores selling vacuum cleaners to debilitated audiences, I'm sure glad Prince isn't making the kind of "music" that allow today's whores to sell records by the hundreds of thousands

Don't be dishonest, there is a gap between selling an album 70.000 ex worldwide and 844.000 ex, like DAFT PUNK, the last in this list (who already sold 3 millions more the year before).

Yeah, except that this is a list of the 40 best-selling artists of the year in the Western hemisphere, out of probably more than 5000 artists that have released albums on that same year. I seriously don't see why Prince of all people should be in the top 40 out of thousands. It's like someone saying a man who makes 8,000 bucks a month has failed his career because he's not among the 40 richest people on earth, while actually there are many more people who make less money than that than people who earn more. Don't YOU be dishonest by using figures out of proportions...

lwr001 said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

WBR don't give a fuck about his new music not selling. They're happy they've tied him to yet another long-running contract that keeps his back catalogue under their control, everything else is a bonus.

have you seen the contract..if not, stop ..period,, go back to work and dont have a visceral reaction to yet another thread,.. here is a fact that is undisputed Bart; he is doing better than you

We can be assured of one thing: Prince can't rerelease any of the WB albums by himself or with any other label, so even though they get a smaller share and seemingly ain't gonna get any remasters or bonus material because P is still mad at them, WB at least still benefit somehow from P's WB catalogue with both CD and digital sales. The other alternative would have been a legal action by P to get the masters back every year after 35 years, that would have cost WB a lot of lawyers money, that WB would most likely have lost and that would have set a dangerous precedent for major labels. WB did the smart thing by avoiding this and still getting some cash out of P. Now he certainly didn't put much heart in promoting the new albums and he certainly is going to give them a lot of shit regarding any possible remastered reissue, but I suspect at this point WB execs don't care anymore, they will just hold on to what they have until the current contract somehow expires, I just don't see them starting a legal battle against Prince in order to get their fucking remasters, it would be costly and they probably don't want any bad publicity either (I think they are somehow still perceived as more "artist-friendly" than Universal and Sony-BMG, and they want to keep things that way).

databank said:

RODSERLING said:

What artists you are listening to are you talking about ? I guess they never sold millions records like Prince, and I bet their contract deal is not of the same price they paid to Prince. This has nothing to do with the situation here.

AOA and PLEC were flops, especially when you consider the music industry of today.

In term of album sales, neither of the 2 albums were on the top 300 best selling albums in the USA, the country where it sold better.

In term of digital singles sales, it is close to nothing.

In term of streaming, Prince his far, far away from all its competitors.

The fact that Prince sells low for an artist of his stature doesn't change the fact that he sells more than most artists with a record deal. Now if Prince will refuse a label's advance because he thinks it's not enough or a label declines to pay what he asks because they don't believe sales will be sufficient it's not the same as a label simply refusing to release Prince's music. Some very obscure labels have released Prince records (U Make My Sun Shine, TRC, NEWS, and the more recent Purple Music singles) and I doubt they paid a high advance, in fact I doubt they paid any advance at all. Kobalt also doesn't pay advances. Theorically advances allow an artist to make a living during recoring an album, which isn't an issue with Prince, so I don't even see the point in him asking for such a thing. I know he once complained that iTunes doesn't pay them, it's properly ridiculous. Prince owns his masters and pays for his production costs, he should be happy with getting sales money without any sort of an advance!

So my agrument still stands, even if P and certain labels couldn't agree on an advance, it has nothing to do with labels rejecting Prince's music in the absolute: if he won't take an advance or accept a modest one, he can release anything anywhere.

You really think that Prince never received advances from, let's say Sony, EMI, ARISTA, Universal and WARNER ? lol he is reported to earn 10 millions dollars in advances with RAVEUN2!

You think he signed with WB without be paying big advances ? That's beyond crazyness. What makes a flop is the money invested compared to the money you earned.

Of course Prince could sign with a little label that nobody gives a fuck about, but what's the point ? It won't enter the BB 200. Prince would use that way only to release instrumental albums, but I highly doubt it.

RODSERLING said:

databank said:

Prince never had issues getting a record or distribution deal. The Target and newspapers distribution of the LF trilogy and 20ten respectively was a choice, he deliberately broke his deal with Kobalt to get back with WB and sales of the last 2 albums, while weak by Prince's classic standards, are reasonable in the current context of the music industry: most of the artists I listen to hardly sell that many copies, and still they have record deals. Majors don't have the same expectations they used to have, and there are hundreds of indie labels who make their dough selling a few dozen thousands of anything they release at the very most. Imagine that Jesse Johnson sold 400,000 copies of Shockadelica in 1986 and at the time this was considered a disappointment by his label, while today a "small" act like Jesse was at the time would struggle to sell 20,000 copies. People on the org have to stop thinking sales as if it was 1991.

The problem isn't the labels, the problem is Prince himself: he doesn't consider record sales sufficient enough to be worth the effort, live shows have become is primary source of income and this is why he doesn't care for releasing albums anymore, he said it himself in an interview. I think it's a pity, because since he keeps recording as much as he used to he would still make some small cash by sellinbg the albums, but obviously this is not how he thinks, at least at the moment.

What artists you are listening to are you talking about ? I guess they never sold millions records like Prince, and I bet their contract deal is not of the same price they paid to Prince. This has nothing to do with the situation here.

AOA and PLEC were flops, especially when you consider the music industry of today.

In term of album sales, neither of the 2 albums were on the top 300 best selling albums in the USA, the country where it sold better.

In term of digital singles sales, it is close to nothing.

In term of streaming, Prince his far, far away from all its competitors.

Prince so badly wanted to be an independent artist that I don't see why he shouldn't sell like an independent artist. Whomever expected him to keep selling as many records as he used to without a major investing big money on promoting him was delusional, including Prince himself. A major simply won't make as much money under a licencing deal than by owning an artist and their masters, so obviously they won't invest as much in promoting those records. The only 2 labels that somehow are trying to be somewhat in the middle of those two economic models are LiveNation and Kobalt, who aim to steal major artists from major labels but try to put as much effort as a major into massive promotion in order to make it worth the star's while. Other indie label or artist-owned labels sell more moderately than majors, always have, always will (save for the once in a while indie hit).

Ever since 1996 I always expected Prince to sell modestly, that's the price for freedom and I was actually surprised to see that he could still achieve some very respectable sales occasionally, with his most commercial albums.

I'd rather have him release an album every other month and selling 10 to 20,000 copies of each, like John Zorn for example, than having him release an album every 3 years and sell 2M copies.

Prince and obviously lots of his fans want to have the cake and eat it too...

databank said:

RODSERLING said:

Don't be dishonest, there is a gap between selling an album 70.000 ex worldwide and 844.000 ex, like DAFT PUNK, the last in this list (who already sold 3 millions more the year before).

Yeah, except that this is a list of the 40 best-selling artists of the year in the Western hemisphere, out of probably more than 5000 artists that have released albums on that same year. I seriously don't see why Prince of all people should be in the top 40 out of thousands. It's like someone saying a man who makes 8,000 bucks a month has failed his career because he's not among the 40 richest people on earth, while actually there are many more people who make less money than that than people who earn more. Don't YOU be dishonest by using figures out of proportions...

Without him promoting it, it couldn't have been on the top 40. Who said that ? Not me.

But, if prince promoted his album, without releasing two records the same day lol I'm sure it would have sold enough to enter that top 40.

But even without promotion, there is a gap between selling 70.000 album and 844.000.

There is a gap between being a little artist that sells 5.000 ex, and being a legendary artist that can't even sells enough for being in the top 300 best sellers of the year.

It only proves that even his fanbase doesn't buy his albums anymore, and it was a clear sign for WB that releasing PR 30 in a physical way, without bonus content, without prince's involvment, would have been not financially wise.

Since 1999 albums released on major record lables along with U.S. sales.

1999: Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic (Gold) - Arista

2004: Musicology- 2M - Columbia

2006: 3121 - (Gold) - Universal

2007: Planet Earth - (278,000) - Columbia

2015: Art Official Age - (100,000) -WB

2015: Plectrum Electrum - (36,000) -WB

RODSERLING said:

databank said:

The fact that Prince sells low for an artist of his stature doesn't change the fact that he sells more than most artists with a record deal. Now if Prince will refuse a label's advance because he thinks it's not enough or a label declines to pay what he asks because they don't believe sales will be sufficient it's not the same as a label simply refusing to release Prince's music. Some very obscure labels have released Prince records (U Make My Sun Shine, TRC, NEWS, and the more recent Purple Music singles) and I doubt they paid a high advance, in fact I doubt they paid any advance at all. Kobalt also doesn't pay advances. Theorically advances allow an artist to make a living during recoring an album, which isn't an issue with Prince, so I don't even see the point in him asking for such a thing. I know he once complained that iTunes doesn't pay them, it's properly ridiculous. Prince owns his masters and pays for his production costs, he should be happy with getting sales money without any sort of an advance!

So my agrument still stands, even if P and certain labels couldn't agree on an advance, it has nothing to do with labels rejecting Prince's music in the absolute: if he won't take an advance or accept a modest one, he can release anything anywhere.

You really think that Prince never received advances from, let's say Sony, EMI, ARISTA, Universal and WARNER ? lol he is reported to earn 10 millions dollars in advances with RAVEUN2!

You think he signed with WB without be paying big advances ? That's beyond crazyness. What makes a flop is the money invested compared to the money you earned.

Of course Prince could sign with a little label that nobody gives a fuck about, but what's the point ? It won't enter the BB 200. Prince would use that way only to release instrumental albums, but I highly doubt it.

I never said that he didn't get advances from the majors he worked with (as well as the newspapers, for that matter, because there was an advance from every 20ten newspaper), I know he did, I will quit this conversation if you start putting words in my mouth that I haven't said.

What I say is that if Prince will not accept advances that are realistic in terms of the forecoming sales or if a label won't accept paying what hje asks for, that's not the same as saying that any label would reject a Prince album, in the absolute and no matter the terms, without any sort of a negociation.

And for the 1000th time I don't care whether Prince enters the BB 200. I don't know whether Prince still cares himself or if he's finally given up on his delusional dream of being an free indie and selling like a major's "slave", but I don't understand while his fans won't give up on this delusional fantasy.

databank said:

RODSERLING said:

What artists you are listening to are you talking about ? I guess they never sold millions records like Prince, and I bet their contract deal is not of the same price they paid to Prince. This has nothing to do with the situation here.

AOA and PLEC were flops, especially when you consider the music industry of today.

In term of album sales, neither of the 2 albums were on the top 300 best selling albums in the USA, the country where it sold better.

In term of digital singles sales, it is close to nothing.

In term of streaming, Prince his far, far away from all its competitors.

Prince so badly wanted to be an independent artist that I don't see why he shouldn't sell like an independent artist. Whomever expected him to keep selling as many records as he used to without a major investing big money on promoting him was delusional, including Prince himself. A major simply won't make as much money under a licencing deal than by owning an artist and their masters, so obviously they won't invest as much in promoting those records. The only 2 labels that somehow are trying to be somewhat in the middle of those two economic models are LiveNation and Kobalt, who aim to steal major artists from major labels but try to put as much effort as a major into massive promotion in order to make it worth the star's while. Other indie label or artist-owned labels sell more moderately than majors, always have, always will (save for the once in a while indie hit).

Ever since 1996 I always expected Prince to sell modestly, that's the price for freedom and I was actually surprised to see that he could still achieve some very respectable sales occasionally, with his most commercial albums.

I'd rather have him release an album every other month and selling 10 to 20,000 copies of each, like John Zorn for example, than having him release an album every 3 years and sell 2M copies.

Prince and obviously lots of his fans want to have the cake and eat it too...

The reason he is not selling much albums this last decade is because he is doing almost nothing in term of promotion.

And I don't think that WB was an independant label last year. In the contrary, I think they gave to Prince advances that an independant label couldn't afford.

So, I don't understand why you compare Prince's situation with AOA and PLEC with a little unknown independant artist ? Makes no sense at all.

databank said:

RODSERLING said:

You really think that Prince never received advances from, let's say Sony, EMI, ARISTA, Universal and WARNER ? lol he is reported to earn 10 millions dollars in advances with RAVEUN2!

You think he signed with WB without be paying big advances ? That's beyond crazyness. What makes a flop is the money invested compared to the money you earned.

Of course Prince could sign with a little label that nobody gives a fuck about, but what's the point ? It won't enter the BB 200. Prince would use that way only to release instrumental albums, but I highly doubt it.

I never said that he didn't get advances from the majors he worked with (as well as the newspapers, for that matter, because there was an advance from every 20ten newspaper), I know he did, I will quit this conversation if you start putting words in my mouth that I haven't said.

What I say is that if Prince will not accept advances that are realistic in terms of the forecoming sales or if a label won't accept paying what hje asks for, that's not the same as saying that any label would reject a Prince album, in the absolute and no matter the terms, without any sort of a negociation.

And for the 1000th time I don't care whether Prince enters the BB 200. I don't know whether Prince still cares himself or if he's finally given up on his delusional dream of being an free indie and selling like a major's "slave", but I don't understand while his fans won't give up on this delusional fantasy.

Of course any label would accept to release a Prince album without paying advances...But the fact that prince struggled to find a deal with PLEC (for instance) is because he is aking for too much money. that's the reason why he can't find a deal.

RODSERLING said:

databank said:

Yeah, except that this is a list of the 40 best-selling artists of the year in the Western hemisphere, out of probably more than 5000 artists that have released albums on that same year. I seriously don't see why Prince of all people should be in the top 40 out of thousands. It's like someone saying a man who makes 8,000 bucks a month has failed his career because he's not among the 40 richest people on earth, while actually there are many more people who make less money than that than people who earn more. Don't YOU be dishonest by using figures out of proportions...

Without him promoting it, it couldn't have been on the top 40. Who said that ? Not me.

But, if prince promoted his album, without releasing two records the same day lol I'm sure it would have sold enough to enter that top 40.

But even without promotion, there is a gap between selling 70.000 album and 844.000.

There is a gap between being a little artist that sells 5.000 ex, and being a legendary artist that can't even sells enough for being in the top 300 best sellers of the year.

It only proves that even his fanbase doesn't buy his albums anymore, and it was a clear sign for WB that releasing PR 30 in a physical way, without bonus content, without prince's involvment, would have been not financially wise.

My bad if I put words in your mouth that u haven't said.

Well for one thing lots of people, even in the fanbase, don't buy the albums because they can get them for free The problem today is also that albums sales do not reflect the actual number of people owning a copy of an album: most of the people I know in France haven't actually bought an album, either physically or digitally, in 10 years, and still they have all the new stuff.

As for a legendary artist not being in the Top 300 (IDK where this new figure comes from BTW, are you even sure of that?), I don't see why it should prevent Prince from releasing new music since he records it anyway. That's the thing that make no sense here, if prince had said "I'm not gonna invest in production costs anymore because it's not worth the investment" I could understand it, but the crazy shit is that Prince keeps recording a new song every other day and spending the money to do so, but keeps the shit for himself! It's like he's punishing his fanbase for not buying albums anymore or something, but bhusinesswise it makes no sense at all.

Lost of "little artists" manage to have a career, make an income, and make a label happy. The fact that P didn't promote the new albums much might mean that he finally accepted that and that he might start releasing more albums again, but we'll see what comes next.

Whether WB was disappointed or not IDK, maybe they expected a huge success à la Musicology, maybe they were happy making a couple hundred thousand dollars with the project.

RODSERLING said:

databank said:

I never said that he didn't get advances from the majors he worked with (as well as the newspapers, for that matter, because there was an advance from every 20ten newspaper), I know he did, I will quit this conversation if you start putting words in my mouth that I haven't said.

What I say is that if Prince will not accept advances that are realistic in terms of the forecoming sales or if a label won't accept paying what hje asks for, that's not the same as saying that any label would reject a Prince album, in the absolute and no matter the terms, without any sort of a negociation.

And for the 1000th time I don't care whether Prince enters the BB 200. I don't know whether Prince still cares himself or if he's finally given up on his delusional dream of being an free indie and selling like a major's "slave", but I don't understand while his fans won't give up on this delusional fantasy.

Of course any label would accept to release a Prince album without paying advances...But the fact that prince struggled to find a deal with PLEC (for instance) is because he is aking for too much money. that's the reason why he can't find a deal.

No but this is Bart's fairy tales for chrissakes, it never happened! Prince had a deal with Kobalt for PlecEl and he then took the album away from them to release it with WB (most likely because it involved an advance, or possibly because he threatened WB to release it with Kobalt anyway and WB didn't want another P album on another label to compete with AOA, knowing that vicious as Prince is he probably would have promoted PlecEl more than AOA).

RODSERLING said:

databank said:

Prince so badly wanted to be an independent artist that I don't see why he shouldn't sell like an independent artist. Whomever expected him to keep selling as many records as he used to without a major investing big money on promoting him was delusional, including Prince himself. A major simply won't make as much money under a licencing deal than by owning an artist and their masters, so obviously they won't invest as much in promoting those records. The only 2 labels that somehow are trying to be somewhat in the middle of those two economic models are LiveNation and Kobalt, who aim to steal major artists from major labels but try to put as much effort as a major into massive promotion in order to make it worth the star's while. Other indie label or artist-owned labels sell more moderately than majors, always have, always will (save for the once in a while indie hit).

Ever since 1996 I always expected Prince to sell modestly, that's the price for freedom and I was actually surprised to see that he could still achieve some very respectable sales occasionally, with his most commercial albums.

I'd rather have him release an album every other month and selling 10 to 20,000 copies of each, like John Zorn for example, than having him release an album every 3 years and sell 2M copies.

Prince and obviously lots of his fans want to have the cake and eat it too...

The reason he is not selling much albums this last decade is because he is doing almost nothing in term of promotion.

And I don't think that WB was an independant label last year. In the contrary, I think they gave to Prince advances that an independant label couldn't afford.

So, I don't understand why you compare Prince's situation with AOA and PLEC with a little unknown independant artist ? Makes no sense at all.

I don't compare Prince with "a little unknown independent artist", I compare him with about 90% of the artists releasing albums, even on majors in fact because it's not like EVERY album released by the big three sells millions. Donald fagen is with WB for instance, how many copies can Fagen sale, seriously? There wasn't even a music video for his 2012 album! Still I don't hear anyone say fagen is a failure...

[Edited 6/25/15 7:46am]

feeluupp said:

Since 1999 albums released on major record lables along with U.S. sales.

1999: Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic (Gold) - Arista

2004: Musicology- 2M - Columbia

2006: 3121 - (Gold) - Universal

2007: Planet Earth - (278,000) - Columbia

2015: Art Official Age - (100,000) -WB

2015: Plectrum Electrum - (36,000) -WB

All I can think of when I look at this is the red tape nightmare of a record company trying to put together a best of collection from this period. I guess that's the silver lining to Prince not having a single hit during all this time.

NouveauDance said:

feeluupp said:

Since 1999 albums released on major record lables along with U.S. sales.

1999: Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic (Gold) - Arista

2004: Musicology- 2M - Columbia

2006: 3121 - (Gold) - Universal

2007: Planet Earth - (278,000) - Columbia

2015: Art Official Age - (100,000) -WB

2015: Plectrum Electrum - (36,000) -WB

All I can think of when I look at this is the red tape nightmare of a record company trying to put together a best of collection from this period. I guess that's the silver lining to Prince not having a single hit during all this time.

Smaller acts without hits also have best of records, usually aimed at people who want to give a first shot at their music but don't know what album to buy (precisely because no hit).

Prince being against best of albums it ain't gonna happen anyway

databank said:

RODSERLING said:

Without him promoting it, it couldn't have been on the top 40. Who said that ? Not me.

But, if prince promoted his album, without releasing two records the same day lol I'm sure it would have sold enough to enter that top 40.

But even without promotion, there is a gap between selling 70.000 album and 844.000.

There is a gap between being a little artist that sells 5.000 ex, and being a legendary artist that can't even sells enough for being in the top 300 best sellers of the year.

It only proves that even his fanbase doesn't buy his albums anymore, and it was a clear sign for WB that releasing PR 30 in a physical way, without bonus content, without prince's involvment, would have been not financially wise.

My bad if I put words in your mouth that u haven't said.

Well for one thing lots of people, even in the fanbase, don't buy the albums because they can get them for free The problem today is also that albums sales do not reflect the actual number of people owning a copy of an album: most of the people I know in France haven't actually bought an album, either physically or digitally, in 10 years, and still they have all the new stuff.

As for a legendary artist not being in the Top 300 (IDK where this new figure comes from BTW, are you even sure of that?), I don't see why it should prevent Prince from releasing new music since he records it anyway. That's the thing that make no sense here, if prince had said "I'm not gonna invest in production costs anymore because it's not worth the investment" I could understand it, but the crazy shit is that Prince keeps recording a new song every other day and spending the money to do so, but keeps the shit for himself! It's like he's punishing his fanbase for not buying albums anymore or something, but bhusinesswise it makes no sense at all.

Lost of "little artists" manage to have a career, make an income, and make a label happy. The fact that P didn't promote the new albums much might mean that he finally accepted that and that he might start releasing more albums again, but we'll see what comes next.

Whether WB was disappointed or not IDK, maybe they expected a huge success à la Musicology, maybe they were happy making a couple hundred thousand dollars with the project.

yes, I'm sure he wasn't on the top 300 best sellers, the music induistry is no so low than that lol.

If there was a top 1000, maybe PLEC won't even be in it.

AOA and PLEC were flops, these records have been released worldwide, massively, well-exposed and WB paid him advances that a little label can't afford.

What prevents him for releasing physically again is simply that he wants a major record deal, or nothing, except for instrumental album. The thing is that everybody knows that Prince won't promote his releases. He played his last chance with WB, because WB had a back catalogue to capitalize on it.

It's not a coincidence if his next album will be released digitally, and even for that he seem to struggle. Hell, he struggled from 2006 to 2014 to find a real label...

By the way WB didn't make any money from AOA and PLEC. There are lots of unsold shipments, and they paid Prince advances.

...

prince is old and he had a great run in the music .... hes not cutting edge anymore ... the best thing for him to do is concerts and play nothing but his " hits " nobody really digs his music anymore but I would never say " what a fucking waste " lol

databank said:

RODSERLING said:

The reason he is not selling much albums this last decade is because he is doing almost nothing in term of promotion.

And I don't think that WB was an independant label last year. In the contrary, I think they gave to Prince advances that an independant label couldn't afford.

So, I don't understand why you compare Prince's situation with AOA and PLEC with a little unknown independant artist ? Makes no sense at all.

I don't compare Prince with "a little unknown independent artist", I compare him with about 90% of the artists releasing albums, even on majors in fact because it's not like EVERY album released by the big three sells millions. Donald fagen is with WB for instance, how many copies can Fagen sale, seriously? There wasn't even a music video for his 2012 album! Still I don't hear anyone say fagen is a failure...

[Edited 6/25/15 7:46am]

Donald Fagen name is not supposed to attract as much as people as Prince does. He surely was not paid as much advances as Prince. His music is not attracted to young people like AOA.

By the way, Fagen's 2012 album was his best selling album since 1993, it ranked #12 on BB200 with 18.000 sales the first week.

So you can't call it a flop.

feeluupp said:

warning2all said:

Most record labels don't want to get into bed with this guy because he's too much of a headache to deal with, then there's no guarantee he'll promote the product anyways.

I agree... All these old time acts you see on the top selling albums of 2014- 2015, including one that has passed away (MJ) sold because of promotion...

	Soundtrack - Frozen Walt Disney - 7.057.000 copies
	Taylor Swift - 1989 Big Machine - 4.619.000 copies
	Ed Sheeran - X Atlantic / Watertower - 3.486.000 copies
	Coldplay - Ghost Stories Parlophone / Atlantic - 3.037.000 copies
	Sam Smith - In The Lonely Hour Capitol - 2.879.000 copies
	Beyoncé - Beyoncé Columbia - 2.289.000 copies
	One Direction - Four Syco Music - 1.936.000 copies
	Pharrell Williams - G I R L Back Lot / Columbia - 1.879.000 copies
	Lorde - Pure Heroine Republic / Universal - 1.815.000 copies
	Pink Floyd - The Endless River Rhino / Columbia - 1.717.000 copies
	One Direction - Midnight Memories Syco Music - 1.708.000 copies
	Katy Perry - Prism Capitol - 1.620.000 copies
	AC/DC - Rock Or Bust Columbia - 1.539.000 copies
	Michael Jackson - Xscape MJJ / Epic - 1.523.000 copies
	Imagine Dragons - Night Visions Interscope - 1.517.000 copies
	Barbra Streisand - Partners Columbia - 1.412.000 copies
	Eminem - The Marshall Mathers LP 2 Aftermath / Interscope - 1.389.000 copies
	Stromae - Racine Carrée Vertigo / Mercury - 1.386.000 copies
	5 Seconds Of Summer - 5 Seconds Of Summer Capitol - 1.284.000 copies
	Soundtrack - Guardians Of The Galaxy: Awesome Mix Vol.1 Hollywood - 1.264.000 copies
	Lana Del Rey - Ultraviolence Polydor / Interscope - 1.203.000 copies
	Arctic Monkeys - AM Domino Recordings - 1.187.000 copies
	Helene Fischer - Farbenspiel Polydor / Universal Germany - 1.180.000 copies
	Bruno Mars - Unorthodox Jukebox Atlantic - 1.167.000 copies
	Pentatonix - That's Christmas To Me RCA - 1.134.000 copies
	Avicii - True Positiva / Island - 1.099.000 copies
	OneRepublic - Native Interscope - 1.087.000 copies
	Maroon 5 - V Interscope - 1.071.000 copies
	Ariana Grande - My Everything Republic - 1.062.000 copies
	AKB 48 - Tsugi No Ashiato King Records Japan - 1.052.000 copies
	Bastille - Bad Blood Virgin - 980.000 copies
	John Legend - Love In The Future Columbia - 945.000 copies
	Michael Bublé - Christmas Reprise - 941.000
	Foo Fighters - Sonic Highways Roswell / RCA - 925.000 copies
	Bruce Springsteen - High Hopes Columbia - 914.000 copies
	Linkin Park - The Hunting Party Machine Shop / Warner Bros. - 900.000 copies
	Black Keys - Turn Blue Nonesuch - 877.000 copies
	Eric Church - The Outsiders EMI Nashville - 863.000 copies
	London Grammar - If You Wait Metal & Dust Recordings - 849.000 copies
	Daft Punk - Random Access Memories Daft Life / Columbia - 844.000 copies

And even with all that constant promotion and hyper-hype, you have people like Beyoncé selling just a little over 2 million units -- and we've heard about her almost perpetually with massive tours and promos. Not a day goes by without a mention of Ariana Grande and she sells just a little over 1 million units. These are clearly famine days for the record industry, the system isn't working for artists through their albums anymore, not the way it used to only a decade ago.

Prince saw it coming long ago, his albums are promotions for his brand, even his concerts go with almost zero promotion nowadays -- it's hard to believe some people still haven't figured that he's making just enough effort to get yearly revenue to cover his overhead expenses and keep doing what he likes otherwise. He's set for life, it's a very enviable one so people can keep their advice.

RODSERLING said:

databank said:

I never said that he didn't get advances from the majors he worked with (as well as the newspapers, for that matter, because there was an advance from every 20ten newspaper), I know he did, I will quit this conversation if you start putting words in my mouth that I haven't said.

What I say is that if Prince will not accept advances that are realistic in terms of the forecoming sales or if a label won't accept paying what hje asks for, that's not the same as saying that any label would reject a Prince album, in the absolute and no matter the terms, without any sort of a negociation.

And for the 1000th time I don't care whether Prince enters the BB 200. I don't know whether Prince still cares himself or if he's finally given up on his delusional dream of being an free indie and selling like a major's "slave", but I don't understand while his fans won't give up on this delusional fantasy.

Of course any label would accept to release a Prince album without paying advances...But the fact that prince struggled to find a deal with PLEC (for instance) is because he is aking for too much money. that's the reason why he can't find a deal.

once agian, how do you know he struggled.? You dont, period.. Are you a label head who told him to pound sand?