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The pop chart is not only music for white teenaged girls. There were singers & groups that were in magazines like Tiger Beat & Bop that got little if any Top 40 radio airplay like Menudo. There were others like Tiffany and the twin brothers Nelson who had limited success. But Menudo used to have a Saturday morning TV show on ABC and they were on sitcoms like Silver Spoons. I don't think people who had pop hits like Bruce Hornsby, Kenny Loggins, Air Supply, & Tracy Chapman were primarily bought by teen girls. There were acts like Debbie Gibson & NKOTB marketed to teens. In R&B, teens had New Edition, The Jets, & Tracie Spencer and their parents had Freddie Jackson and Rene & Angela. NKOTB was really popular in the late 1980s and they had hip hop elements, including their look. The New Kids were extremely popular and had dolls, bedsheets, a 1-900 chat line that you had to pay to call, a cartoon show, and all kinds of other things. The 2nd video is a commercial that used air on MTV in the mid 1980s Bob Dylan did a verse on Kurtis Blow's Street Rock in 1986
Others in the 1980s who used hip hop/rap in their music and/or visuals. Hip hop is not just rapping. It includes B-Boys/B-Girls breakdancing, popping, locking, graffiti art, fashion, etc. Most are well known people. . Stevie Wonder: Do I Do (Stevie also produced the 1983 rap track The Crown by Gary Byrd) Chaka Khan: I Feel For You The Gap Band: I'm Gonna Get You Sucka (They had breakdancers in the Party Train video and also had a breaker named Baby Gap who performed with them) Lionel Richie had some poppers & lockers in his All Night Long video The moonwalk was a breakin' move before Michael Jackson did it on Motown 25 Gladys Knight & The Pips had breakers and guys with boom boxes in the Save The Overtime For Me video Midnight Star had some kids tagging in the Midas Touch video Phil Collins said he got the "ha ha ha" in the Genesis song Mama from Melle Mel in The Message Falco was rapping in a German/English mix Arthur Baker was a popular producer & remixer who worked with many acts including on Hall & Oates Big Bam Boom album Cameo: She's Strange (12" Version) Big Audio Dynamite: BAD Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis played on Ice T's first single The Coldest Rap and produced Captain Rapp's Bad Times. Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers played bass on Bust A Move by Young MC. Herbie Hancock: Rockit (Had a popular music video) Blondie: Rapture Tom Tom Club: Genius Of Love, Wordy Rappinghood Rich Little: President's Rap James Brown: Unity, Static Art Of Noise: Beat Box Mel Brooks: Hitler Rap Weird Al: Twister Time Zone: World Destruction (features John "Rotten" Lydon from Sex Pistols) Wham!: Wham! Rap, Young Guns Bellamy Brothers: Country Rap Glenn Medeiros feat. Bobby Brown: She Ain't Worth It The Jets: Rocket 2 U Jody Watley feat. Rakim: Friends Pet Shop Boys: West End Girls Malcom McLaren: Buffalo Gals Rodney Dangerfield: Rappin' Rodney René And Angela: Save Your Love (For #1) Teena Marie: Square Biz Midnight Star: Don't Rock The Boat Quincy Jones: The Dude, Back On The Block, Jazz Corner Of The World Rebbie Jackson: R U Tuff Enuf {12" Version} Rick James: Loosey's Rap Levert: Just Coolin' . Sheena Easton, James Ingram, Boy George, Aretha Franklin, Gap Band, James Brown, The Jacksons, Randy (Jackson) & The Gypsys and other veterans made New Jack Swing records. Bobby Brown was in popular in the late 1980s and he did the theme song for Ghostbusters 2. LA & Babyface were popular producers. So hip hop was in the background of 1980s popular music. You can take a black guy to Nashville from right out of the cotton fields with bib overalls, and they will call him R&B. You can take a white guy in a pin-stripe suit who’s never seen a cotton field, and they will call him country. ~ O. B. McClinton | |
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Oh. You missed Adam & The Ants 'Ant Rap' from 1981. Those drums! |
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I doubt that hip hop's entry into the mainstream had anything whatsoever to do with Prince. The songs where he tried to incorporate rap are clumsy efforts that sound forced for the most part. Neither he nor Tony M. were "hard" enough to rap without it sounding inauthentic. Prince, in you I found a kindred spirit...Rest In Paradise. | |
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Yep. Hip hop had a lot of influence and popularity in the 1980s that chart positions don't tell like Run DMC increasing the sales of Adidas sneakers and the influence on youth culture including slang. Words like 'fresh', 'live', 'fly' and 'def' went into mainstream use in the US. The Rappin' Rodney video used to get shown on BET & MTV. There's also the G.L.O.W. raps and ones from commercials. If these don't prove rap was mainstream before 1990, nothing will
You can take a black guy to Nashville from right out of the cotton fields with bib overalls, and they will call him R&B. You can take a white guy in a pin-stripe suit who’s never seen a cotton field, and they will call him country. ~ O. B. McClinton | |
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You guys are forgetting about "Mr. T's Commandments" released in 1984. Mainstream rap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._T%27s_Commandments
Just kidding. | |
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I remember that and Mr. T's cereal. You can take a black guy to Nashville from right out of the cotton fields with bib overalls, and they will call him R&B. You can take a white guy in a pin-stripe suit who’s never seen a cotton field, and they will call him country. ~ O. B. McClinton | |
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There was also a Fruity Pebbles commercial from around 1987 where Barney wears a thick gold chain and a hat like Run DMC and Fred is scratching a record. In 1986 Bob Hope had a special where there was a skit with Rap News. Mr. Hope was as mainstream as you can get. He's old Hollywood.
So it was realtively mainstream as far back as 1984. I posted my link mainly as a joke but if advertisers were rapping and using it commercials and shit...well...that's practically the definition of mainstream, right?
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I just listened to Exodus again today and there's a lot of rap on there that's absolutely bangin. "The Good Life" rap is great. I think it's fair to say that Prince never informed hip hop and unfair to say that every time he uses rap he sucks.
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Why do you post in that weird font, BTW? It hurts my eyes.
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Well, thats the story being told by looking back at the charts?
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didn't influence the genre, that goes without saying. Although 2Pac did sample multiple earlier Prince songs. But they were big selling albums and he still had the worlds ear.Noodled24 said:
First you say mainstream, then you say pop, then you say "international". There's no debating with you because you just change parameters you poorly understand when you see you're not winning a point.
Answer some interesting posts up there instead, I was a witness to the rise of rap though I have no merit -- you could not hide from it as some beautiful posts up there point out. [Edited 3/10/15 15:32pm] | |
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I've never said otherwise. But I've made it pretty clear I'm talking about Rap and the pop charts?
If posing naked on the cover of "Lovesexy" was 'breaking down barriers' in the 80s, then taking a song called "Sexy MotherFucker" to #4 on the UK charts in 1992 was driving a 16 wheeler at them. | |
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There's no point. Noodles only looks at number 1 international smashes and MTV trophies in his deep quest to understand how and when rap became mainstream. Most people would think "hey, Aerosmith got with these black rapping dudes to make a top ten hit in 1986, that's got to be pretty mainsteam" but not our friend.
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Mainstream, Pop, International... surely they all go hand in hand. I've never diverted from the fact I've been looking at the "Mainstream Pop Charts" Specifically the top 10. The top 10 is a good historical indication of what people were listening to at any given time. I've said numerous times Rap was alive and well. There was a vibrant scene... there just weren't many top 10 hits. It was rare to see a rap song in the top 10. Towards the end of the 80s and the early 90's there was a lot of resistance from mainstream media - taking lyrics out of context and blowing them up. Suddenly everybody wants to hear what they're not allowed to listen to perhaps... Do you disagree that by 95/96 there were far more top 10 rap songs? #1 rap singles were coming 2/3/4/5 times a year where as in 1994 there was no #1 rap single that year on the US top 10. I don't deny that I'm looking purely at the data. The cultural and social impact was a mighty one to say the least. We got to live though the birth and evolution of a new music genre. Few generations can say that. BUT... looking at the data from the charts... | |
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Well then you'd be wrong. Rap was being used in commercials, advertisements and even in a joke on "Cheers" which I think aired I 1985 or so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg9ruee3Vos
This is a great thread though. One of the more interesting I've read here in a while.
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[Edited 3/10/15 17:44pm] | |
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A loop is a loop is a loop is a loop is a loop is a loop is a loop... "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
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. If award shows are the norm then heavy metal didn't exist until the Grammies awarded Jethro Tull the first such award in 1989. Which would be odd considering metal and hard rock festivals had been attracting massive audiences in Europe for years, and even Moscow had seen one of those. © Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights. It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for your use. All rights reserved. | |
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. Again: NONSENSE. The Beastie Boys tour was HUGE. Front page news. There were hits. There were documentaries on TV (VPRO TV in Holland visited LL Cool J's house, for instance). Public Enemy releases were events amongst music lovers. © Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights. It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for your use. All rights reserved. | |
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. SO WHAT. . Charts are only part of the picture. . Look at this comic. Hell, look at ALL the Hip Hop Family Tree comics. There's also a bunch of them over at The Nib, including this one about a segment on rap on 20/20 back in 1981. . Learn about the ACTUAL history of rap and hip hop. . If you're actually interested in it instead of moving your goalposts once again. © Bart Van Hemelen
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In the mid-to-late 80's Prince and I were riding in his Thunderbird on the freeway. A mellow drive, going nowhere in particular, he decided to turn on the radio because, well, he wanted to hear some music play. He turned the dial until he came accross a station which was not playing music in the way Prince thought music ought to be, but was spinning some tune by a silly rapper talking silly shit instead. Puzzled, Prince pondered to himself and thought fuck this shit, "the only good rapper is one that's dead on it" he exclaimed to me. "Dead on it!" he repeated loudly. |
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Funny. I never really saw "Dead On It" as THE big slam to rap/hip-hop that people claim it to be. The idea in this song is that the only good rap is great rap aka "Dead on" rap. Oh, and that rappers can't sing. Which (by in large) they cannot. - This is a similar idea to, "Real Music, by Real Musicians" and "take ur pick turntable, or a band...if it aint Chuck D, or Jam Master Jay....they losin'..." - Are these all examples of Prince being a bit elitist? Sure. Yet, it echoes a similar sentiment that Chris Rock recently stated in a Rolling Stone interview. - RS: Someone like Chuck D will say that there needs to be more historical awareness among hip-hop fans, that it's not right that the Stones can play arenas and stadiums and Public Enemy can't. - Chris Rock: [Edited 3/11/15 9:28am] [Edited 3/11/15 9:29am] "New Power slide...." |
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[Edited 3/11/15 14:58pm] | |
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[Edited 3/11/15 14:51pm] | |
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Correct?
Whats your take on why hip-hop went from being one or two break out songs a year then in the US 1995 Along comes TLC, Coolio, 2Pac Puffy. Suddenly there are multiple #1 rap hits on the pop charts?
Can you explain why Gett Off, MNIP and SexyMF aren't regarded as hip-hop in the same way people reference "The Power" by Snap!? [Edited 3/11/15 16:00pm] | |
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DMSR is not rap. "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry | |
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Noodled24: I went back and re-read your original post. I think a lot of people (myself included) may have misconstrued what you were saying in your first post. Perhaps that's due to the following debate and shit getting off track. Anyway, in your first post I think you clearly take a position on the status of hip-hop that's more consistent with the views of your "opponents" than it is inconsistent. That being said, I think this paragraph is where your post is wrong or at least overstated: "I don't think Hip-Hop owes anything to Prince. But I think he did to a degree help establish hip-hop on the mainstream charts. He was still a multi-million seller, he was still banging out top 10 hits... Nobody was buying D&P or prince thinking they were getting a rap album, both are clearly pop efforts. But back in 91/92 before hip-hop went mainstream Prince was taking it to a mainstream international audence." Prince did not play a unique role in bringing hip-hop to the top of the charts in 1991 and 1992. There were many artists on the charts who were either straight-up hip-hop or had hip-hop elements before and concurrently with Prince. At best, Prince helped segments of his existing audience open their minds to hip-hop. The general audience hearing Prince songs with rap elements at that time had already been exposed again and again to hip-hop. Prince was a drop in the ocean. "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
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So according to you Isn't She Lovely by Stevie Wonder is not mainstream. It was never actually released as a single so didn't chart, except on the adult contemporary one. But it recieved a lot of airplay on multiple radio formats when the album originally came out and still gets played today. George Thorogood's Bad To The Bone was not a big Top 10 hit, but it's well known in the US. The USA is a large place with many types of people. A song could be popular in a certain area, like zydeco music in Louisiana & Texas or Miami bass in the south or with a certain ethnicity like salsa, reggaeton, tejano, or Hawaiian music. That's why there is a Latin Grammys and different country music awards. In the "heartland" stuff like Bob Seger, John Mellencamp, and country music tends to be more popular, which is generally what you'd see at a Farm Aid concert. There's southern soul (aka soul blues) & southern rock which are more popular in the south. In the 1980s, there were 2 local Top 40 stations. One played more hair metal acts than the other and the other played more dance music like Erasure & Depeche Mode and AC acts. There's singles which hit #10 that sold more than ones that made it to number #1. There was another chart magazine called Cashbox, which tends to be different from Billboard. The Jet Magazine chart is also generally different than the Billboard R&B chart.
Most of their music was in Spanish, and Top 40 radio in the US rarely plays anything non-English. Even on their TV show they tended to sing in Spanish, but had subtitles at the bottom. Menudo changed members a lot since they would get kicked out at 16 years. The most known lineup with the non-Latino audience in the US is the early 1980s one that had the TV show. But Ricky Martin came from a later lineup. . What's so special about that album cover? There were naked album covers in the 1970s. John Lennon & Yoko Ono released Two Virgins in 1968. You can take a black guy to Nashville from right out of the cotton fields with bib overalls, and they will call him R&B. You can take a white guy in a pin-stripe suit who’s never seen a cotton field, and they will call him country. ~ O. B. McClinton | |
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