"Jesse Johnson released a similar version, also titled Do Yourself A Favor, on his album Shockadelica, in 1986, but it misses Prince's own lyrical contribution to the track, a humorous spoken section in his "Jamie Starr" voice, so his version is not considered to have any input by Prince."

Jesse used Prince's arrangement almost to the note and this version has a lot more in common to it than to If You See Me, so P should at the very least be considered arranger on that track.

.

"Although Prince's versions remain unreleased, Sue Ann Carwell released a version of the song in 1981, as the b-side of her single Let Me Let You Rock Me, but with different music, written by Chris Moon; since Prince's original input was limited to music, he had no contribution in the released version, so the track is listed here as unreleased."

Have they even heard the track? The arrangement differs but it's exactly the same composition as P's version. If this is a different song then every rerecorded/rearranged version of songs he gave to others, such as 5 Women, You're My love or Baby Go-Go, is a different song.

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Though both were rerecorded/rearranged (so were many tracks given to other artists) and neither were released with Prince's approval (for that matter no 94 East releases were either and nevertheless they're considered canon), I consider both songs official releases of P's work.

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I love the guys at Pvault and what they're doing but they're HALLUCINATING in both cases

[Edited 4/8/15 12:10pm]

Umm...If I'm not mistaken,Prince didn't write "Do yourself a favour".It is a Pepe Willie song that Prince reworked.That's probably why he didn't get credit.

Didn't you make this thread before?

http://prince.org/msg/7/379963

This song was penned by Pepe Williams, but Prince's own early 1982 (possibly 1981) arrangement differs drastically from the original mid-1970s 'If You See Me'.

.

This 1981/1982 version was most likely recorded with The Time's 'What Time Is It?' album in mind.

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It may even have been originally recorded with Sue Ann Carwell in mind (but for whatever reason rejected in favor of the Chris Moon-produced version), or in the alternative, P's interest in the song may have been rekindled by Sue Ann Carwell's own release of a version of 'If You See Me' in 1981.

.

Prince evidently offered his 1981/1982 version of the track, along with other Vault material, to Jesse Johnson for use on his second album. This arrangement was quite clearly used as the very shell around which Jesse Johnson built his 1986 'Shockadelica' album version.

.

Many of the basic tracks from the 1981/1982 Prince version are still present in the final product on the 1986 JJ 'Shockadelica' album (all of the bass-- at the very minimum, some (if not most) of the synth lines, possibly all of the guitar work, and some backing vocals by P [and even Lisa's during a few points] buried in the mix). The mix/edit are brighter here and effected so as to give it a mid-1980s production 'shine'. It might take a few scrutinizing listens to appreciate that many/most of the 1981/1982 basic tracks are present in brushed-up form here.

.

The primary synth line has been re-recorded (or, perhaps, is still the original 1981/1982 basic track but more exposed and less 'processed' or less 'stacked' in the mix here), and a Linndrum track replaces the live drumming of the 1981/1982 take (this update might have been done by P himself in 1986 before forwarding it to Jesse). The drum track is unremarkable, but the effects and general feel are suspiciously CB/SOTT-era (almost identically to the drum effects and programming on the Camille tracks, specifically, which helps when this track was revisited) and unlike anything else appearing on the 'Shockadelica' album or other Jesse Johnson-produced works of this period.

.

Perhaps P worked on this, and sent it along with, or as a replacement for, the eponymous and ultimately rejected 'Shockadelica' title track. (He may even have begun updating the track as a possible contribution to Morris' second solo album, and was 'green-lighted' to use or felt compelled to revisit this track after the release of 'Minneapolis Genius' in the previous year).

.

It is entirely possible that the 1986 'Shockadelica' album take of 'Do Yourself a Favor' features no, or very few, instrumental contributions from Jesse Johnson, and is simply a marginally updated, newly mixed and edited version of P's 1981/1982 arrangement, with Johnson replacing only the main and most of the backing vocals. (The mixing and updates having likely been done mostly if not entirely by P)

.

Jesse walked a fine line between maintaining a 'comfortable' distance to establish himself as an 'bankable' artist in his own right, and at the same time fashioning his image quite unapologetically around P. 'Do Yourself a Favor' seems to be an ideal 'play-it-safe' track to reconcile these seemingly conflicting ends.

.

He was said to be very much involved in suggesting unused Vault material from the ~ WTII and ICC eras for possible use during the 'Pandemonium' era, so it shouldn't be surprising at all that an unused track possibly flagged originally for The Time-- with even deeper Minneapolis history behind it, ended up on his 'Shockadelica' album.

.

Add to this that Jesse and P's interesting and controversial give-and-take in attributions and use of 'uncredited' musical ideas are a defining aspect of their professional relationship.

.

This is not merely a recording based on and faithful to P's 1981/1982 arrangement, but rather is literally the basic tracking of P's 1981/1982 take (remixed and updated as necessary).

.

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[Edited 4/8/15 22:00pm]

I'd never heard the argument that Jesse actually used Prince's tracks, but I'd always assumed he knew Prince's recording (probably intended for The Time, as you suggest) and took his arrangement. I'll have to listen to the Jesse version again and see if it really is the same tracks (in part).

I've always been confused by the Make It Through the Storm comment--when Prince's started circulating, I was like, "It's the same tune! They said she didn't use it!" That goes back before Princevault, though, right--didn't Per Nilsen say the same thing? I don't know if he just hadn't heard P's, so Nilsen got it wrong, assuming that since P wasn't credited in any obvious way that they'd not gone with his music. But yeah, it's the same.

EddieC said:

I'd never heard the argument that Jesse actually used Prince's tracks, but I'd always assumed he knew Prince's recording (probably intended for The Time, as you suggest) and took his arrangement. I'll have to listen to the Jesse version again and see if it really is the same tracks (in part).

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I believe, quite frankly, that *all* of the instrumentation present extends from the 1981/1982 Prince recording, albeit remixed and with some edits, with the sole exceptions of the drum track and possibly the main synth line (and for these, I am also of the mind that both were most likely replaced by Prince, not Jesse Johnson, in mid/late 1986). And also that some of the background vocals, buried in the mix, survive as well.

.

Since the circulating copy of P's 1981/1982 arrangement is about 'stereo AM' radio quality (with its source differently mixed), the overlap is perhaps hard to pick up on without some effort. The bass line is the easiest to draw direct comparisons from.

.

Some of the synth patches (in particular, that 'slinky' horn-like one) are so arcane, and so 1981/1982-ish Prince, I cannot imagine that in 1986 and basing it only off listening to or a memory of P's arrangement, that Jesse could or would have a reason to so identically re-create it. He is even getting very slightly into the 'Jamie Starr' persona bits before the edit ends, as well.

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And the replacement Linndrum track has all the markers and fingerprints of the same programming and effects processing as those used the Camille material and unlike any Jesse Johnson song that I've yet heard.

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I believe most likely Jesse Johnson's contributions on this track are strictly limited to replacing the main vocal tracks, and some of the backing vocal tracks.

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I feel this was submitted alongside with, or as a replacement for, 'Shockadelica' (the proposed title track), and that having no proper attribution in any way is a gift from P (made that much easier by its Pepe Williams legacy, and the precedent of give-and-take in credits in Jesse/P's earlier working relationship), so as to facilitate this early stage of Jesse's solo career. He apparently rejected 'Shockadelica' in whole or substantial part out of fear that it gave the false impression his album was a P protege project.

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Princevault, Per Nilsen, Uptown Magazine, etc., while having access to some elite source material and interviews with purple intimates, are riddled with more holes than Swiss cheese.

.

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[Edited 4/8/15 22:49pm]

Militant said:

Didn't you make this thread before?

http://prince.org/msg/7/379963

Dude I must b losing my fucking mind I remembered mentioning this in threads b4 but not making one

imprimis said:

This song was penned by Pepe Williams, but Prince's own early 1982 (possibly 1981) arrangement differs drastically from the original mid-1970s 'If You See Me'.

.

This 1981/1982 version was most likely recorded with The Time's 'What Time Is It?' album in mind.

That's the rumor yeah

.

It may even have been originally recorded with Sue Ann Carwell in mind (but for whatever reason rejected in favor of the Chris Moon-produced version), or in the alternative, P's interest in the song may have been rekindled by Sue Ann Carwell's own release of a version of 'If You See Me' in 1981.

This is confusing, which of the 2 songs are u talking about? IDK that Sue Ann ever released If You See Me.

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Prince evidently offered his 1981/1982 version of the track, along with other Vault material, to Jesse Johnson for use on his second album. This arrangement was quite clearly used as the very shell around which Jesse Johnson built his 1986 'Shockadelica' album version.

No, Pepé Willie clearly stated that P had nothing to do with Jesse being offered the track, it was a deal between Pepé and Jesse but both, of course, had a copy of p's version.

.

Many of the basic tracks from the 1981/1982 Prince version are still present in the final product on the 1986 JJ 'Shockadelica' album (all of the bass-- at the very minimum, some (if not most) of the synth lines, possibly all of the guitar work, and some backing vocals by P [and even Lisa's during a few points] buried in the mix). The mix/edit are brighter here and effected so as to give it a mid-1980s production 'shine'. It might take a few scrutinizing listens to appreciate that many/most of the 1981/1982 basic tracks are present in brushed-up form here.

No, it was entirely rerecorded by Jesse in order to mimic the original. Jesse didn't have P's multi-tracks so there was no way he could have overdubbed or remixed it.

.

The primary synth line has been re-recorded (or, perhaps, is still the original 1981/1982 basic track but more exposed and less 'processed' or less 'stacked' in the mix here), and a Linndrum track replaces the live drumming of the 1981/1982 take (this update might have been done by P himself in 1986 before forwarding it to Jesse). The drum track is unremarkable, but the effects and general feel are suspiciously CB/SOTT-era (almost identically to the drum effects and programming on the Camille tracks, specifically, which helps when this track was revisited) and unlike anything else appearing on the 'Shockadelica' album or other Jesse Johnson-produced works of this period.

Everything was rerecorded.

.

Perhaps P worked on this, and sent it along with, or as a replacement for, the eponymous and ultimately rejected 'Shockadelica' title track. (He may even have begun updating the track as a possible contribution to Morris' second solo album, and was 'green-lighted' to use or felt compelled to revisit this track after the release of 'Minneapolis Genius' in the previous year).

P didn't work on it and had nothing to do with it,n at least according to Pepé. Pepé also said that Prince was not happy at all about Minneapolis Genius being released in 1986, and didn't want to have anything to do with it.

.

It is entirely possible that the 1986 'Shockadelica' album take of 'Do Yourself a Favor' features no, or very few, instrumental contributions from Jesse Johnson, and is simply a marginally updated, newly mixed and edited version of P's 1981/1982 arrangement, with Johnson replacing only the main and most of the backing vocals. (The mixing and updates having likely been done mostly if not entirely by P)

It is not possible, that is unless of course Pepé lied.

.

Jesse walked a fine line between maintaining a 'comfortable' distance to establish himself as an 'bankable' artist in his own right, and at the same time fashioning his image quite unapologetically around P. 'Do Yourself a Favor' seems to be an ideal 'play-it-safe' track to reconcile these seemingly conflicting ends.

.

He was said to be very much involved in suggesting unused Vault material from the ~ WTII and ICC eras for possible use during the 'Pandemonium' era, so it shouldn't be surprising at all that an unused track possibly flagged originally for The Time-- with even deeper Minneapolis history behind it, ended up on his 'Shockadelica' album.

.

Add to this that Jesse and P's interesting and controversial give-and-take in attributions and use of 'uncredited' musical ideas are a defining aspect of their professional relationship.

Evidently Jesse had no qualms stealing P's arrangements given that P had deprived him of both credits and royalties on some ICC songs. However Jesse was not exactly clean himself: Pepé said that the reason why DYAF is credited to both Jesse and Pepé was that Jesse put it as a condition to use it/ give me half the royalties and get the other half, or I won't use the song and you won't get nothing at all.

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This is not merely a recording based on and faithful to P's 1981/1982 arrangement, but rather is literally the basic tracking of P's 1981/1982 take (remixed and updated as necessary).

No it isn't, at least there is no substantial information by any of the involded parties suggesting this, quite the opposite as said above.

.

[Edited 4/8/15 22:00pm]

EddieC said:

I'd never heard the argument that Jesse actually used Prince's tracks, but I'd always assumed he knew Prince's recording (probably intended for The Time, as you suggest) and took his arrangement. I'll have to listen to the Jesse version again and see if it really is the same tracks (in part).

I assure you it's not

I've always been confused by the Make It Through the Storm comment--when Prince's started circulating, I was like, "It's the same tune! They said she didn't use it!" That goes back before Princevault, though, right--didn't Per Nilsen say the same thing? I don't know if he just hadn't heard P's, so Nilsen got it wrong, assuming that since P wasn't credited in any obvious way that they'd not gone with his music. But yeah, it's the same.

Thanks for confirming I'm not a madman.

dbpdexter said:

Umm...If I'm not mistaken,Prince didn't write "Do yourself a favour".It is a Pepe Willie song that Prince reworked.That's probably why he didn't get credit.

There was no reason he'd get any official credit given how the whole thing happened. Nevertheless there is every reason for Princevault giving him credit.

I love Princevault. They are the most comprehensive, amazing, and generous-with-their-free-time Prince resource on the internet (or anywhere).

But, there's also this:

"Our Destiny is an unreleased track, recorded during Prince and the Revolution's concert on 7 June, 1984 at First Avenue in Minneapolis, MN, USA, during the same show where the basic tracks for Roadhouse Garden and All Day, All Night were also recorded (since no full studio version is known the exist, this live version is listed in the unreleased versions section)."

There is one with Lisa on vocals. Isn't that a studio version?

[Edited 4/9/15 7:06am]

[Edited 4/9/15 7:09am]

databank said:

EddieC said:

I'd never heard the argument that Jesse actually used Prince's tracks, but I'd always assumed he knew Prince's recording (probably intended for The Time, as you suggest) and took his arrangement. I'll have to listen to the Jesse version again and see if it really is the same tracks (in part).

I assure you it's not

I've always been confused by the Make It Through the Storm comment--when Prince's started circulating, I was like, "It's the same tune! They said she didn't use it!" That goes back before Princevault, though, right--didn't Per Nilsen say the same thing? I don't know if he just hadn't heard P's, so Nilsen got it wrong, assuming that since P wasn't credited in any obvious way that they'd not gone with his music. But yeah, it's the same.

Thanks for confirming I'm not a madman.

.

What seem to be of the exact same synth patches (horn line, swirling Oberheim string parts), and a perfectly reproduced bassline, to my ears at least, make it seem extraordinarily improbable that this isn't built partially or fully off of P's multitrack, whatever the alleged politics are behind the affair.

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The circulating boot of the 1982 arrangement is in poor/mediocre sound quality, plays several percent too fast, and may not be the final version or mix of the track-- without even speculating that it may have been dressed up in 1986.

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I cannot imagine that he would have a reason to so extensively mimic the 1982 arrangement, down to some of the finest details, unless it is what he was offered and had direct access to. That level of detail seems a little too precise and neurotic to merely be a big 'F-Y' to Prince.

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This post-70s early-1980s P arrangement had limited chance of charting in 1986/1987 beyond occasional urban radio play; clearly Jesse could have easily re-written, or further revised, that arrangement, to make it a more commercially viable to the standards and tastes of a mid-to-late 80s listening audience.

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And I wasn't suggesting that Prince approved of 'Minneapolis Genius'; rather, that his unhappiness with that release would have made it easier for him to concede his arrangement as a possible offering for Jesse's second album.

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None of this answers the drum track on the 1986 JJ version, which while generic, has effects processing and programming recognizably similar to the Camille-era sessions, during which period we know 'Shockadelica' was written and offered, and is nothing like what appears on any other Jesse Johnson produced track that I'm aware of.

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[Edited 4/9/15 8:28am]

imprimis said:

databank said:

.

Many of the exact same synth patches, and a perfectly reproduced bassline, to my ears at least, make it seem extraordinarily improbable that this isn't built partially or fully off of P's multitrack, whatever the alleged politics are behind the affair. I cannot imagine that he would have a reason to that extensively mimic the 1982 arrangement, down to the smallest detail, unless it is what he was offered and had direct access to. That level of detail seems a little too precise and neurotic to be a big 'F-Y' to Prince. This post-70s early-1980s P arrangement had limited chance of charting in 1986/1987 beyond occasional urban radio play; clearly Jesse could have further rewritten it with commercial interest in mind if he were going to re-record it from scratch and Pepe gave the go-ahead (or was forced to by Jesse).

.

.

[Edited 4/9/15 8:12am]

I've just listened to them back to back and it's pretty obvious to me that bosth bass and synth are NOT the same recording, though it's hard to say because in order to use P's tracks Jesse would have had to SLOW them down (the tempo on his version is much slower than P's), but then again for exemple the pitch of both the bass and main synth on Jesse's version is higher than on P's, which is even more absurd given that slowing down a track does result in a lower pitch, not higher. I don't know you and your ears but I've read ASTONISHING statements on this forum, with people "hearing" similarities that didn't exist AT ALL between songs, or a "Prince sound" that also didn't exist at all on songs they suspected he was involved with when he wasn't at all, so I'm pretty skeptical when it comes to orgers and their ears, save musicians like Militant who know what they're talking about.

Also, DYAF was not an single nor ever intended as one, so IDK why it should have been supposed to chart or get any particular radio aiplay. The whole album sounds like P did sound in 1982, like everything Mpls sound from 1986, so your reasoning is quite hazardous.

P's arrangement was simply mindblowing, which I think is confirmed by the popularity of the outtake on this forum, so it'd make sense Jesse would have wanted to emulate it as much as possible. Imitating P's way of playing the bass or synth wasn't really difficult for the people from his camp, no challenge at all in fact: for one thing Jesse did that intensively for 3 years while rehearsing and playing live for The Time and V6, and there are numerous other examples of people from his camp imitating him with perfection (see the sped-up guitar solo on Save The People, or Sheila's Linn drum machine Youtube instrumental from 2010). Jesse also knew exactly what kind (brands, models) of instruments P was using so it wasn't hard for him to use the same instruments.

Of course it IS possible that MY ears are wrong 5anyway I don't consider my ears being of any more objective value than others', even though I have been a musician myself but that was a long while ago) and that Jesse somehow obtained a copy of Prince's original multitracks, things that Nilsen and Uptown had missed have happened to have been revealed later on (though not too often), but as far as I'm concerned we have no credible reason to believe that it is the case, except some orgers' "ears", which is of zero value when it comes to objective research, particularly given how non-musicians do not realize how easy it is for a professional musician to imitate another musician's sound with extreme precision.

databank said:

imprimis said:

.

Many of the exact same synth patches, and a perfectly reproduced bassline, to my ears at least, make it seem extraordinarily improbable that this isn't built partially or fully off of P's multitrack, whatever the alleged politics are behind the affair. I cannot imagine that he would have a reason to that extensively mimic the 1982 arrangement, down to the smallest detail, unless it is what he was offered and had direct access to. That level of detail seems a little too precise and neurotic to be a big 'F-Y' to Prince. This post-70s early-1980s P arrangement had limited chance of charting in 1986/1987 beyond occasional urban radio play; clearly Jesse could have further rewritten it with commercial interest in mind if he were going to re-record it from scratch and Pepe gave the go-ahead (or was forced to by Jesse).

.

.

[Edited 4/9/15 8:12am]

I've just listened to them back to back and it's pretty obvious to me that bosth bass and synth are NOT the same recording, though it's hard to say because in order to use P's tracks Jesse would have had to SLOW them down (the tempo on his version is much slower than P's), but then again for exemple the pitch of both the bass and main synth on Jesse's version is higher than on P's, which is even more absurd given that slowing down a track does result in a lower pitch, not higher. I don't know you and your ears but I've read ASTONISHING statements on this forum, with people "hearing" similarities that didn't exist AT ALL between songs, or a "Prince sound" that also didn't exist at all on songs they suspected he was involved with when he wasn't at all, so I'm pretty skeptical when it comes to orgers and their ears, save musicians like Militant who know what they're talking about.

Also, DYAF was not an single nor ever intended as one, so IDK why it should have been supposed to chart or get any particular radio aiplay. The whole album sounds like P did sound in 1982, like everything Mpls sound from 1986, so your reasoning is quite hazardous.

P's arrangement was simply mindblowing, which I think is confirmed by the popularity of the outtake on this forum, so it'd make sense Jesse would have wanted to emulate it as much as possible. Imitating P's way of playing the bass or synth wasn't really difficult for the people from his camp, no challenge at all in fact: for one thing Jesse did that intensively for 3 years while rehearsing and playing live for The Time and V6, and there are numerous other examples of people from his camp imitating him with perfection (see the sped-up guitar solo on Save The People, or Sheila's Linn drum machine Youtube instrumental from 2010). Jesse also knew exactly what kind (brands, models) of instruments P was using so it wasn't hard for him to use the same instruments.

Of course it IS possible that MY ears are wrong 5anyway I don't consider my ears being of any more objective value than others', even though I have been a musician myself but that was a long while ago) and that Jesse somehow obtained a copy of Prince's original multitracks, things that Nilsen and Uptown had missed have happened to have been revealed later on (though not too often), but as far as I'm concerned we have no credible reason to believe that it is the case, except some orgers' "ears", which is of zero value when it comes to objective research, particularly given how non-musicians do not realize how easy it is for a professional musician to imitate another musician's sound with extreme precision.

.

The circulating 1981/1982 version appears to be a somewhat early demo, and most likely not representative of the last time it was worked on before being relegated to the Vault ca. ~1982. This doesn't seem to be an entirely 'finished' take, if one formally even exists.

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Jesse's second album sounds virtually nothing like 1982 Prince, except perhaps when construed in the broadest and most liberal-minded comparison.

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He obviously enjoys a high standard of musicianship; however, with respect to his his own compositions, on his first two or three albums and associated artist productions of the same time period, Jesse does not convincingly 'come off' as Prince even when it is clear in certain compositions he is most likely trying to engender (and profit from) suspicions and false impressions to that effect.

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The 'Shockadelica' album is mostly in the general MPLS mode, but comfortably pulling away from the post-PR, schlock imitation Prince of late 1984/1985 (and Jesse's first solo album).

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Rather little 'true' post-PR style [pseudo-]MPLS carried through to 1986 albums and airwaves. Even the 'Control' album is discernably moving on.

.

I'm aware of the stories that P sent him his OB's around this time period. The suggestion is not that Jesse, with his abundance of talent, could not faithfully emulate the playing style of the original musician, if so inclined-- but rather why would he on sound elements that are simultaneously dated and obscure.

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Finding merit in, and honoring the spirit of, P's arrangement wouldn't necessitate that fine-toothed-comb level of reproduction, however technically simple it may be for Jesse, especially when balanced against his interests in commercial ascent.

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Given the highly mercenary nature of his career at this point (the movie soundtrack contributions, that post-PR ersatz imitation first solo album, etc.), and at the same time publicly stating that he is in control of the game and staking his own unique reputation, I don't see why he would be interested in making what amounts to a karaoke version of a 1981/1982 Prince track, unless perhaps it actually has been 'gifted' from the source (and I don't mean Pepe alone).

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It is uninspired by 1986 standards, which time period isn't distanced enough from the early and early-mid 80s to reflect back on with nostalgia, yet isn't likely to satisfy the production sensibilities of 1986/1987. The 'Jamie Starr' persona, which is presumably a large part of what makes the arrangement well liked among the Org community, was either simply not recorded or is almost entirely missing due to the fadeout on the album (depending how particular you want to be on what is 'Jamie Starr' in the song).

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The outtake 1981/82 arrangement is >= 2% too fast in its playback speed, and possibly needing L/R reversed, and regarding comparison of the synths, I am referring almost exclusively to the Oberheim backing string touches interspersed throughout the track (some low in the mix), not the (somewhat annoying) main lead. And my wild speculations are even more difficult to test if the Jesse Johnson version incorporates the basic tracks, which may use more of certain elements than the 1981/82 circulating demo (or those added in 1982 beyond what the circulating bootleg contains).

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These are just notions that I had while being half-asleep. I am willing to accept that I may be entirely in error, but I don't want to back down too quickly.

.

.

[Edited 4/9/15 10:05am]

I don't hear any of the original elements of Prince's demo in Jesse's versions. It's pretty clearly re-recorded and that's not so hard to do when Jesse probably saw/heard Prince working on his version in the first place and certainly knew what he used to record each part.

Also, Prince didn't offer his song "Shockadelica" to Jesse. Prince had made a point to Jesse that every great album title ought to have to a title track, and so he wrote his song with the same name and rush-released it to make it look like Jesse took the title from P. But he never offered him the song for him to record, AFAIK.

If you watch or listen to any Jesse interviews from when this record came out, his relationship with Prince was not good at this time. On Video Soul, he said "It was hell working with Prince, our stories are horror stories. He used to stop us doing certain dances and wearing certain clothes so there couldn't be any room to upstage him, and we used to laugh about it." There's absolutely no way that Prince would be giving Jesse a song when Jesse is talking trash about Prince on TV! And there's no way that Jesse would accept a song from Prince at this time, either.

Slow the 1982 outtake down ~2 to 2.5%, and discount the Linndrum track and lead synth line on the 'Shockadelica' album version, all of which obscure any possible overlap.

.

Militant said:

I don't hear any of the original elements of Prince's demo in Jesse's versions. It's pretty clearly re-recorded and that's not so hard to do when Jesse probably saw/heard Prince working on his version in the first place and certainly knew what he used to record each part.

Also, Prince didn't offer his song "Shockadelica" to Jesse. Prince had made a point to Jesse that every great album title ought to have to a title track, and so he wrote his song with the same name and rush-released it to make it look like Jesse took the title from P. But he never offered him the song for him to record, AFAIK.

If you watch or listen to any Jesse interviews from when this record came out, his relationship with Prince was not good at this time. On Video Soul, he said "It was hell working with Prince, our stories are horror stories. He used to stop us doing certain dances and wearing certain clothes so there couldn't be any room to upstage him, and we used to laugh about it." There's absolutely no way that Prince would be giving Jesse a song when Jesse is talking trash about Prince on TV! And there's no way that Jesse would accept a song from Prince at this time, either.

[Edited 4/9/15 10:52am]

imprimis said:

databank said:

I've just listened to them back to back and it's pretty obvious to me that bosth bass and synth are NOT the same recording, though it's hard to say because in order to use P's tracks Jesse would have had to SLOW them down (the tempo on his version is much slower than P's), but then again for exemple the pitch of both the bass and main synth on Jesse's version is higher than on P's, which is even more absurd given that slowing down a track does result in a lower pitch, not higher. I don't know you and your ears but I've read ASTONISHING statements on this forum, with people "hearing" similarities that didn't exist AT ALL between songs, or a "Prince sound" that also didn't exist at all on songs they suspected he was involved with when he wasn't at all, so I'm pretty skeptical when it comes to orgers and their ears, save musicians like Militant who know what they're talking about.

Also, DYAF was not an single nor ever intended as one, so IDK why it should have been supposed to chart or get any particular radio aiplay. The whole album sounds like P did sound in 1982, like everything Mpls sound from 1986, so your reasoning is quite hazardous.

P's arrangement was simply mindblowing, which I think is confirmed by the popularity of the outtake on this forum, so it'd make sense Jesse would have wanted to emulate it as much as possible. Imitating P's way of playing the bass or synth wasn't really difficult for the people from his camp, no challenge at all in fact: for one thing Jesse did that intensively for 3 years while rehearsing and playing live for The Time and V6, and there are numerous other examples of people from his camp imitating him with perfection (see the sped-up guitar solo on Save The People, or Sheila's Linn drum machine Youtube instrumental from 2010). Jesse also knew exactly what kind (brands, models) of instruments P was using so it wasn't hard for him to use the same instruments.

Of course it IS possible that MY ears are wrong 5anyway I don't consider my ears being of any more objective value than others', even though I have been a musician myself but that was a long while ago) and that Jesse somehow obtained a copy of Prince's original multitracks, things that Nilsen and Uptown had missed have happened to have been revealed later on (though not too often), but as far as I'm concerned we have no credible reason to believe that it is the case, except some orgers' "ears", which is of zero value when it comes to objective research, particularly given how non-musicians do not realize how easy it is for a professional musician to imitate another musician's sound with extreme precision.

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The circulating 1981/1982 version appears to be a somewhat early demo, and most likely not representative of the last time it was worked on before being relegated to the Vault ca. ~1982. This doesn't seem to be an entirely 'finished' take, if one formally even exists.

I fail to understand why you would think that, it's not more or less unfinished than anything P recorded at that time, he had a spare sound and if unreleased I'm pretty sure more than one would be tempted that most of the songs from Controversy, 1999 or Vanity 6 (among other projects from that era) are unfinished demos.

Jesse's second album sounds virtually nothing like 1982 Prince, except perhaps when construed in the broadest and most liberal-minded comparison.

My point was that everyone at the time was one train late on Prince, virtually everything funk in 1986 sounded like Prince in 1982, only using more recent gear.

He obviously enjoys a high standard of musicianship; however, with respect to his his own compositions, on his first two or three albums and associated artist productions of the same time period, Jesse does not convincingly 'come off' as Prince even when it is clear in certain compositions he is most likely trying to engender (and profit from) suspicions and false impressions to that effect.

I think he was pretty much trying to come off as himself, not to emulate Prince, except he was doing minneapolis sound and it was impossible not to sound somewhat like Prince when doing that.

The 'Shockadelica' album is mostly in the general MPLS mode, but comfortably pulling away from the post-PR, schlock imitation Prince of late 1984/1985 (and Jesse's first solo album).

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Rather little 'true' post-PR style [pseudo-]MPLS carried through to 1986 albums and airwaves. Even the 'Control' album is discernably moving on.

Control was something else entirely, it practically created new jack swing all by itself, I wouldn't even label it mpls sound at all

I'm aware of the stories that P sent him his OB's around this time period. The suggestion is not that Jesse could not emulate the original musician, but rather why would he on sound elements that are simultaneously dated and obscure.

I am not familiar with those stories so I wouldn't know

Given the highly mercenary nature of his career at this point (the movie soundtrack contributions, that post-PR ersatz imitation first solo album, etc.), and at the same time publicly stating that he is in control of the game and staking his own unique reputation, I don't see why he would be interested in making what amounts to a karaoke version of a 1981/1982 Prince track, unless perhaps it actually has been 'gifted' from the source (and I don't mean Pepe alone).

You tend to forget that the track was not circulating at the time, so it was totally unknown save maybe from a few elite collectors who already had some outtakes. Bootlegs with prince outtakes really started to spread in 1987, and were not really all over the place before 88-89, when the hype around TBA gave their existence a lot of visibility.

It is uninspired by 1986 standards, which time period isn't distanced enough from the early and early-mid 80s to reflect back on with nostalgia, yet isn't likely to satisfy the production sensibilities of 1986/1987. The 'Jamie Starr' persona, which is presumably a large part of what makes the arrangement well liked among the Org community, was either simply not recorded or is almost entirely missing due to the fadeout on the album (depending how particular you want to be on what is 'Jamie Starr' in the song).

Unispired for 1986 as it may have been (a VERY subjective statement, I find it by far the most inspired track of the entire album), Jesse liked it so much that he included an extended version on a 1988 single, from the next album. Jesse was obviously very fond of it.

The outtake 1981/82 arrangement is >= 2% too fast in its playback speed, and possibly needing L/R reversed, and regarding comparison of the synths, I am referring almost exclusively to the Oberheim backing string touches interspersed throughout the track (some low in the mix), not the (somewhat annoying) main lead. And my wild speculations are even more difficult to test if the Jesse Johnson version incorporates the basic tracks, which may use more of certain elements than the 1981/82 circulating demo (or those added in 1982 beyond what the circulating bootleg contains).

IDK whether the outtake is really too fast, I also thought it might be but it's not something I'm certain of, we'd need a higher quality leak to be sure. It's possible it sounds to fast only precisely by comparison to Jesse's version. Or you're right and it is, IDK. I maintain that there is NO reason to believe there were overdubs on the circulating Prince version, you state this as if it was a fact and I find this very wrong, it's only a wild guess you're having, there is no information to back this up. Please don't do this, you know it is wrong.

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These are just notions that I had while being half-asleep. I am willing to accept that I may be entirely in error, but I don't want to back down too quickly.

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You are speculating and your speculations are legitimate in the sense that it wouldn't be totally unreasonable to assume that Jesse might have somehow gotten the original multitracks and used bits and pieces of it, but we don't have any testimony of such a thing happening. It is also possible that P would rework the 1982 track at a later date as he did that quite a lot, but it is possible regarding every circulating outtake and there is no reason to think it happened here more than with any other outtake, no matter how "finished" it sounds. However I want to be the voice of reason and say that as long as research hasn't shown something to be true, we need to be extra cautious with speculation.

Militant said:

I don't hear any of the original elements of Prince's demo in Jesse's versions. It's pretty clearly re-recorded and that's not so hard to do when Jesse probably saw/heard Prince working on his version in the first place and certainly knew what he used to record each part.

THANK YOU!

Also, Prince didn't offer his song "Shockadelica" to Jesse. Prince had made a point to Jesse that every great album title ought to have to a title track, and so he wrote his song with the same name and rush-released it to make it look like Jesse took the title from P. But he never offered him the song for him to record, AFAIK.

I've just checked and Pvault says as you say. I am absolutely certain I read before, many times possibly even in Per's DMSR, that it was offered to Jesse so I think this was a urban legend that was believed to be true for a long time and recently debunked, as shown by the current Pvault page.

If you watch or listen to any Jesse interviews from when this record came out, his relationship with Prince was not good at this time. On Video Soul, he said "It was hell working with Prince, our stories are horror stories. He used to stop us doing certain dances and wearing certain clothes so there couldn't be any room to upstage him, and we used to laugh about it." There's absolutely no way that Prince would be giving Jesse a song when Jesse is talking trash about Prince on TV! And there's no way that Jesse would accept a song from Prince at this time, either.
Let us not forget that Jesse lost several thousand hundred dollars, possibly even a good million, when Prince deprived him of the copyright of The Bird and Jungle Love. That enough is reason to be mad at someone until the end of time

I think he was pretty much trying to come off as himself, not to emulate Prince, except he was doing minneapolis sound and it was impossible not to sound somewhat like Prince when doing that.

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Judgment Day references, and 1999/PR Tour 'stage antic'-style wordplay, flamboyant Paisley suits, ruffled poet's shirts, pancake makeup jobs and Purple curls constitute a little more than just playing in the key of the 'broader' Minneapolis sound (or early/mid-80s R&B generally). The second album finds the visual image quickly transformed to a loose approximation of late-1986/1987-era Prince.

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Perhaps as a matter of record company executive demands, and perhaps as a matter of economic necessity, and perhaps as a matter of being 'in the camp', but it fails me as to how Jesse can fully escape accusations of [at least partial] impersonation.

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[Edited 4/9/15 10:37am]

And my wild speculations are even more difficult to test if the Jesse Johnson version incorporates the basic tracks, which may use more of certain elements than the 1981/82 circulating demo (or those added in 1982 beyond what the circulating bootleg contains).

IDK whether the outtake is really too fast, I also thought it might be but it's not something I'm certain of, we'd need a higher quality leak to be sure. It's possible it sounds to fast only precisely by comparison to Jesse's version. Or you're right and it is, IDK. I maintain that there is NO reason to believe there were overdubs on the circulating Prince version, you state this as if it was a fact and I find this very wrong, it's only a wild guess you're having, there is no information to back this up. Please don't do this, you know it is wrong.

I quite clearly designated what followed as 'wild speculations' and employed the word may. The moral outrage is unwarranted.

imprimis said:

I quite clearly designated what followed as 'wild speculations' and employed the word may. The moral outrage is unwarranted.

My misunderstanding, then, sorry.

imprimis said:

Judgment Day references, and 1999/PR Tour 'stage antic'-style wordplay, flamboyant Paisley suits, ruffled poet's shirts, pancake makeup jobs and Purple curls are a little more than just playing in the key of the Minneapolis sound. The second album has the visual image transformed to a loose approximation of late-1986/1987-era Prince.

[Edited 4/9/15 10:30am]

Here I'd say that many mplsound copycats also borrowed P's look (or the Time's).

databank said:

imprimis said:

Judgment Day references, and 1999/PR Tour 'stage antic'-style wordplay, flamboyant Paisley suits, ruffled poet's shirts, pancake makeup jobs and Purple curls are a little more than just playing in the key of the Minneapolis sound. The second album has the visual image transformed to a loose approximation of late-1986/1987-era Prince.

[Edited 4/9/15 10:30am]

Here I'd say that many mplsound copycats also borrowed P's look (or the Time's).

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Yes, naturally. However, there seems to be a very strong sentiment on this board and related sites that somehow Jesse is almost completely immune from this charge, despite attempts at logic.

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That he was simultaneously permissibly 'borrowing' the necessary bits and pieces of P's specific image and sound, yet at the same time as a commercial and performing artist is someone entirely unique.

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I recognize that his technical craft makes him a formidable musician in his own right, and that he had a tumultuous working relationship with P and was denied proper attributions on some important tracks, and also that his first one or two albums especially have endeared themselves better than many other similarly-directed efforts to those who listened 'back in the day', but come on now.

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There almost seems to be a 'touchy', embedded, latent (but ultimately never fully articulated) suggestion that somehow these offerings were better than P's own immediate post-PR ones (too unfunky, too non-urban, too much W&L, too pretentious, "can you believe 'Do U Lie?' is by the same guy who wrote 'Erotic City'", etc.), even by some who also outwardly praise those efforts.

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[Edited 4/9/15 11:09am]

imprimis said:

databank said:

Here I'd say that many mplsound copycats also borrowed P's look (or the Time's).

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Yes, naturally. However, there seems to be a very strong sentiment on this board and related sites that somehow Jesse is almost completely immune from this charge, despite attempts at logic.

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That he was simultaneously permissibly 'borrowing' the necessary bits and pieces of P's specific image and sound, yet at the same time as a commercial and performing artist is someone entirely unique.

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I recognize that his technical craft makes him a formidable musician in his own right, and that he had a tumultuous working relationship with P and was denied proper attributions on some important tracks, and also that his first one or two albums especially have endeared themselves better than many other similarly-directed efforts to those who listened 'back in the day', but come on now.

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There almost seems to be a touchy, embedded, latent (but ultimately never fully articulated) suggestion that somehow these offerings were better than P's own immediate post-PR ones (too unfunky, too non-urban, too much W&L, too pretentious, "can you believe 'Do U Lie' is by the same guy as 'Erotic City'", etc.).

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[Edited 4/9/15 11:00am]

I'm with u on that one. I personally am not so much into JJ. I mean I like his albums and side project a lot because they're Mpls sound and I'm into that, and there are a few songs I really love such as Every Shade Of Love, and I even dig his later efforts such as the hendrixian 1996 album, but I was never IMPRESSED by those records, they're just cool but as far as I'm concerned that's it. I mean Morris Day's first two albums blew me away for example, but Jesse's didn't. And beyond this, in a more general manner I find it pretty ridiculous to even try and compare Prince with Jesse or anyone else in P's camp for that matter, P's creativity was just waaaay above the pack, Prince and Jesse ain't in the same league. None of those guys could EVER come-up with something as original as Parade or Crystal Ball (the song).

imprimis said:

databank said:

Here I'd say that many mplsound copycats also borrowed P's look (or the Time's).

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Yes, naturally. However, there seems to be a very strong sentiment on this board and related sites that somehow Jesse is almost completely immune from this charge, despite attempts at logic.

.

That he was simultaneously permissibly 'borrowing' the necessary bits and pieces of P's specific image and sound, yet at the same time as a commercial and performing artist is someone entirely unique.

.

I recognize that his technical craft makes him a formidable musician in his own right, and that he had a tumultuous working relationship with P and was denied proper attributions on some important tracks, and also that his first one or two albums especially have endeared themselves better than many other similarly-directed efforts to those who listened 'back in the day', but come on now.

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There almost seems to be a 'touchy', embedded, latent (but ultimately never fully articulated) suggestion that somehow these offerings were better than P's own immediate post-PR ones (too unfunky, too non-urban, too much W&L, too pretentious, "can you believe 'Do U Lie?' is by the same guy who wrote 'Erotic City'", etc.), even by some who also outwardly praise those efforts.

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[Edited 4/9/15 11:09am]

Well, a lot of people got hooked on the Minneapolis Sound, and Prince had moved on from it.

I love that Prince always decides to do something different rather than repeating himself, but I also love the Minneapolis Sound, so I really don't care that lots of other people took up the mantle. I love Jesse's work, I love Jam & Lewis's work, I love Ready For The World, Mazarati etc.

I wouldn't say any of that stuff is "better" than what Prince did..... just different.

[]

[Edited 4/9/15 18:57pm]

This is a great thread.

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I've wondered for a while the story with 'Do Yourself A Favor' and as you guys say the info on the brilliant Prince-vault is a bit murky so this has been an interesting read, thanks.

These are the type of threads I love. Whilst Im not too clued up on the song/s in question, I have learned something interesting and am now going to have a listen to both versions and see what I come up with.

I wish the org had more of this and less about the hairdo's. Personally I would split the Prince: Music & More into two forums - Prince: Music and Prince: More. So we can argue about business decisions, clothes, backing bands and other such antics in the More forum, and disect the music in an investigative way, like this thread, review new and old releases, discuss factual information about recording sessions and be more scholarly in the Music forum. We would be building an extremely informative forum that would be a great companion to pvault, and would be befitting of P's legacy.

Maybe that isnt the org's role though, and someone should start a new discussion site specifically designed for the purpose of Prince's music discussions and analysis.

Rebeljuice said:

These are the type of threads I love. Whilst Im not too clued up on the song/s in question, I have learned something interesting and am now going to have a listen to both versions and see what I come up with.

I wish the org had more of this and less about the hairdo's. Personally I would split the Prince: Music & More into two forums - Prince: Music and Prince: More. So we can argue about business decisions, clothes, backing bands and other such antics in the More forum, and disect the music in an investigative way, like this thread, review new and old releases, discuss factual information about recording sessions and be more scholarly in the Music forum. We would be building an extremely informative forum that would be a great companion to pvault, and would be befitting of P's legacy.

Maybe that isnt the org's role though, and someone should start a new discussion site specifically designed for the purpose of Prince's music discussions and analysis.

I've asked the mods what u suggest before and they said no. I've also thought of creating such a new forum, but I thought no one will ever go there because the Org is the place

databank said:

Rebeljuice said:

These are the type of threads I love. Whilst Im not too clued up on the song/s in question, I have learned something interesting and am now going to have a listen to both versions and see what I come up with.

I wish the org had more of this and less about the hairdo's. Personally I would split the Prince: Music & More into two forums - Prince: Music and Prince: More. So we can argue about business decisions, clothes, backing bands and other such antics in the More forum, and disect the music in an investigative way, like this thread, review new and old releases, discuss factual information about recording sessions and be more scholarly in the Music forum. We would be building an extremely informative forum that would be a great companion to pvault, and would be befitting of P's legacy.

Maybe that isnt the org's role though, and someone should start a new discussion site specifically designed for the purpose of Prince's music discussions and analysis.

I've asked the mods what u suggest before and they said no. I've also thought of creating such a new forum, but I thought no one will ever go there because the Org is the place

I dont know why it is an issue... Obviously the mods are adverse to serious discussion having its own grown-up section. They much prefer the mud slinging I guess.

Im not so sure that many Prince fans think the org is the place to be. I would say that the org has scared away many a fan due to its schitzophrenic attitude towards Prince. A new site aimed at fans who want to discuss his music and are interested in the history and evolution of the music might actually be a breath of fresh air. Its not as if a site like that needs thousands of members to work. It just needs a few enthusiastic Prince scholars and a few willing to learn. It would then grow naturally. Hardest part is kicking it off with lots of discussions to get engaged in from the start. Perhaps a call for some volunteers to help get it off the ground. Im not sure there will be too many takers who post on the org, too many enjoy the triviality of it all. See how Barts thread about the experts-exchange thing dropped like a lead balloon. But there may be quite a few lurkers who would happily engage in something a bit more grown up...

I think it would be an awsome undertaking. It would be nice to have a site which discusses the music first and foremost. Somewhere to learn something factual. Discussing techniques, album reviews, chronology of recordings, outtakes and where they fit into the picture, proteges and their music, tours and the musicians employed at the time, album disections etc etc. Factual information that can be preserved, and perhaps one day compiled. PVault is great, but it lacks any discussion pertaining to the facts it presents. And it is the discussion that is engaging to others as opposed to presenting straight up fact. Then when someone tells me they just dont get what I see in Prince, I could point them to the new site and tell them to look around and see what they come away with. You cant do that with the org, people would come away thinking Prince and his fans are insane and would run a mile!

Unfortunately I dont really have the time to get something like that off the ground, but I would happily get engaged with the site from the onset. Is anyone else though? thats the question. I dont doubt they are out there, but how do you connect with them to start with?