I was just thinking about this the other day: The Flesh was recorded in late December 85 and early January 86.

First set of sessions were Prince + Eric + Levi + Sheila.

Second session was Prince + Eric + Levi + Sheila + Wendy + Lisa + Jonathan.

Still, at this time Prince had a band, it was called The Revolution and though it was in the process of being expanded by having Eric, Atlanta, Miko, Jerome, Greg and Wally as members but still officially it was just Wendy, Lisa, Matt, Mark and Bobby.

.

Then I wondered wht happened that Prince suddenly would record a whole set of jamming sessions with Sheila and her bass player. Where were Bobby and Mark? The first set of sessions, if we're to think U Gotta Shake Something is a clue of some sort about how it sounded, already had everything the SOTT band and Madhouse quartet later had: the sound, the casting, everything was there and long ahead of the Parade Tour and The Revolution's sound.

.

Then came the second session: Prince strangely and unexpectedly took the drummer's seat (something he's hardly ever done in a jamming context before or since), kept Sheila on percs and Levi on bass and invited W&L + Wendy's brother, also on percs.

Once again: where were Matt, Bobby and Mark?

.

The recordings we have from that session provided a very fascinating album where, however, Wendy & Lisa are both the strenght and the weakness of the recording IMHO. To some extent it's pretty obvious they're a bit over their heads here, particularly Wendy, and in that they're its weakness. On the other hand with their classical and rock background (as opposed to Eric, Sheila and Levi and their jazz-funk background) they add some interesting harmonic and rythmic elements that almost sometimes work against the groove and give this album quite a peculiar sound, which is the strenght of their contribution. I don't have a clue but I suspect this may be why Prince surprisingly chose that session over the ones with the future Madhouse quartet for the album: it's possible it had a more "interesting" and "original" sound even though it probably wasn't as "tight".

.

So actually I think it's just very possible that The Revolution had taken a leave for Xmas and New Year's eve and that Prince just took whoever was around at the time: first Eric, Levi and Sheila, then W&L once they got back from wherever they were, and that Matt, Bobby and Mark just didn't happen to be there. On the other hand isn't it strange given how Prince used to praise Mark that he'd take Sheila's bassist over him for such a set of sessions? Isn't it strange, given how the Revolution sextet was used to play together and jam for hours, that Prince would take the more risky approach of doing this with musicians he wasn't so familiar with? Was it just a matter of timing or an opportunity he'd been looking forward to? Of course at first it was only an experiment but reportedly as early as the end of the first day with the future Madhouse quartet, Prince suspected there was some album potential in the experiment.

.

So in the end I'm wondering to which extent those sessions were historically important for Prince: did they give him the notion, or confirm a notion he had, that he wanted to do things the Revolution as it was was too limited musically (or just too "rock") to do? Did he spend the whole Parade Tour wondering if the tour wouldn't have been better with Levi on bass and Sheila on drums?

.

The funny thing is that almost a year later he'd record 8 totally on his own, it's only later when the time came to record 16 that he'd reunite the Madhouse/Flesh quartet for more jam sessions (some of which appeared later on Times Squared). It was once more an unexpected move: to record his first released instrumental album on his own instead of using a band that he knew had potential and would end-up reuniting soon after.

.

So honestly i don't know for sure what I'm trying to say. I'm just thinking out loud and sharing my thoughts really, wondering as I said above how decisive -if at all- the Flesh sessions were in pushing Prince in the new musical direction that would eventually become the SOTT tour, the Madhouse project and Black Album sessions. The reply seems obvious for Madhouse, I mean A Couple Of Miles, save its "Parade" sounding drums, could have gone totally unnoticed in the middle of 8 or 16. Similarly, U Gotta Shake Something wouldn't have been a very shocking b-side for any of the SOTT singles (see Housequake extended for example, or even the extended part of La, La, La, Hee, Hee, Hee). I suspect those 3 days of jam sessions that happened, it seems, almost by accident, may have been decisive for the future of P's music as a whole and besides personal tensions P's decision to fire Bobby, Wendy & Lisa after the Parade Tour.

.

And I really don't know whether Prince just took whoever was around because his band wasn't, or consciously tested the water for a new band configuration.

.

Thoughts?

databank said:

I was just thinking about this the other day: The Flesh was recorded in late December 85 and early January 86.

First set of sessions were Prince + Eric + Levi + Sheila.

Second session was Prince + Eric + Levi + Sheila + Wendy + Lisa + Jonathan.

Still, at this time Prince had a band, it was called The Revolution and though it was in the process of being expanded by having Eric, Atlanta, Miko, Jerome, Greg and Wally as members but still officially it was just Wendy, Lisa, Matt, Mark and Bobby.

.

Then I wondered wht happened that Prince suddenly would record a whole set of jamming sessions with Sheila and her bass player. Where were Bobby and Mark? The first set of sessions, if we're to think U Gotta Shake Something is a clue of some sort about how it sounded, already had everything the SOTT band and Madhouse quartet later had: the sound, the casting, everything was there and long ahead of the Parade Tour and The Revolution's sound.

.

Then came the second session: Prince strangely and unexpectedly took the drummer's seat (something he's hardly ever done in a jamming context before or since), kept Sheila on percs and Levi on bass and invited W&L + Wendy's brother, also on percs.

Once again: where were Matt, Bobby and Mark?

.

The recordings we have from that session provided a very fascinating album where, however, Wendy & Lisa are both the strenght and the weakness of the recording IMHO. To some extent it's pretty obvious they're a bit over their heads here, particularly Wendy, and in that they're its weakness. On the other hand with their classical and rock background (as opposed to Eric, Sheila and Levi and their jazz-funk background) they add some interesting harmonic and rythmic elements that almost sometimes work against the groove and give this album quite a peculiar sound, which is the strenght of their contribution. I don't have a clue but I suspect this may be why Prince surprisingly chose that session over the ones with the future Madhouse quartet for the album: it's possible it had a more "interesting" and "original" sound even though it probably wasn't as "tight".

.

So actually I think it's just very possible that The Revolution had taken a leave for Xmas and New Year's eve and that Prince just took whoever was around at the time: first Eric, Levi and Sheila, then W&L once they got back from wherever they were, and that Matt, Bobby and Mark just didn't happen to be there. On the other hand isn't it strange given how Prince used to praise Mark that he'd take Sheila's bassist over him for such a set of sessions? Isn't it strange, given how the Revolution sextet was used to play together and jam for hours, that Prince would take the more risky approach of doing this with musicians he wasn't so familiar with? Was it just a matter of timing or an opportunity he'd been looking forward to? Of course at first it was only an experiment but reportedly as early as the end of the first day with the future Madhouse quartet, Prince suspected there was some album potential in the experiment.

.

So in the end I'm wondering to which extent those sessions were historically important for Prince: did they give him the notion, or confirm a notion he had, that he wanted to do things the Revolution as it was was too limited musically (or just too "rock") to do? Did he spend the whole Parade Tour wondering if the tour wouldn't have been better with Levi on bass and Sheila on drums?

.

The funny thing is that almost a year later he'd record 8 totally on his own, it's only later when the time came to record 16 that he'd reunite the Madhouse/Flesh quartet for more jam sessions (some of which appeared later on Times Squared). It was once more an unexpected move: to record his first released instrumental album on his own instead of using a band that he knew had potential and would end-up reuniting soon after.

.

So honestly i don't know for sure what I'm trying to say. I'm just thinking out loud and sharing my thoughts really, wondering as I said above how decisive -if at all- the Flesh sessions were in pushing Prince in the new musical direction that would eventually become the SOTT tour, the Madhouse project and Black Album sessions. The reply seems obvious for Madhouse, I mean A Couple Of Miles, save its "Parade" sounding drums, could have gone totally unnoticed in the middle of 8 or 16. Similarly, U Gotta Shake Something wouldn't have been a very shocking b-side for any of the SOTT singles (see Housequake extended for example, or even the extended part of La, La, La, Hee, Hee, Hee). I suspect those 3 days of jam sessions that happened, it seems, almost by accident, may have been decisive for the future of P's music as a whole and besides personal tensions P's decision to fire Bobby, Wendy & Lisa after the Parade Tour.

.

And I really don't know whether Prince just took whoever was around because his band wasn't, or consciously tested the water for a new band configuration.

.

Thoughts?

U have great posts my friend, I really enjoy them.

I think the most likely answer is that Bobby and Matt may have been at home in Minneapolis for the Xmas/New Year whilst Prince elected to stay in LA. Most of The Flesh was done at the beginning of January at Sunset Sound in LA. Sheila lived on the West Coast, and perhaps preferred to play with Levi.

Of course, the most obvious answer is simply that Prince wanted to record something with a different vibe to the jams he had with The Rev.

Militant said:

I think it's interesting that when Prince disbanded the Rev he wanted to keep Mark and Matt on board, or rather he wanted get rid of W&L and Bobby. He had tried to include W&L on the Flesh sessions, but they struggled to keep up. They had been tested and failed. He realised that he could take Sheila, Eric and Levi with him forward, W&L (Wendy in particular) would hold him back

I've pondered this here over the years too - Remembering that we don't really have much of those sessions, but judging on what little we do have; I agree Wendy seems to get lost in the mix of Junk Music, but I really enjoy Lisa's piano and it holds it's own imo, alongside the discernible contributions from everyone else.

My thoughts I think we along the same lines: These sessions might've just been using who was available at the time (seems a Princely thing to do, short notice and all).

Undoubtedly The Flesh led to Madhouse, the lineage of ideas in how to present the music and it's style is very clear. I don't regard it as a "test" for the Revolution at all, but I can certainly see how from this project he saw what he might be able to do with Eric, Sheila, Levi and furthermore it was the seed or spark for his post-Revolution band and playstyle - so no I don't think it was a calculated test, just something that planted a seed. As for W&L "struggling" or whatever, people's strengths are in different areas, Prince, Wendy & Lisa as a unit in the studio brought something very unique and special that couldn't be replicated by other band members and musicians around at the time, and let's not forget the only group recordings that Prince chose for the album from the entirety of the sessions are from the Everybody's Jam, which featured Wendy & Lisa. As far as we know (and we don't know if this was the final album configuration) Prince prefered for the album recordings from the second session.

NouveauDance said:

I've pondered this here over the years too - Remembering that we don't really have much of those sessions, but judging on what little we do have; I agree Wendy seems to get lost in the mix of Junk Music, but I really enjoy Lisa's piano and it holds it's own imo, alongside the discernible contributions from everyone else.

My thoughts I think we along the same lines: These sessions might've just been using who was available at the time (seems a Princely thing to do, short notice and all).

Undoubtedly The Flesh led to Madhouse, the lineage of ideas in how to present the music and it's style is very clear. I don't regard it as a "test" for the Revolution at all, but I can certainly see how from this project he saw what he might be able to do with Eric, Sheila, Levi and furthermore it was the seed or spark for his post-Revolution band and playstyle - so no I don't think it was a calculated test, just something that planted a seed. As for W&L "struggling" or whatever, people's strengths are in different areas, Prince, Wendy & Lisa as a unit in the studio brought something very unique and special that couldn't be replicated by other band members and musicians around at the time, and let's not forget the only group recordings that Prince chose for the album from the entirety of the sessions are from the Everybody's Jam, which featured Wendy & Lisa. As far as we know (and we don't know if this was the final album configuration) Prince prefered for the album recordings from the second session.

I think Prince prefered that session because of his own fabulous drumming. Once again W&L was lucky to be around at the right time.

NouveauDance said:

paulludvig said:

I think Prince prefered that session because of his own fabulous drumming. Once again W&L was lucky to be around at the right time.

Haha, well I didn't draw any conclusion as to WHY he preferred the the tracks he did!

You know what I think - maybe the second set was just a bit more focused and presentable for release. being the second set and all they might've had some ideas about what they wanted to do (which makes the first set sound just as tantalizing for different reasons - more spontaneous, freeform, etc? We do but wonder.....) Junk Music is basically the entire set with a come down and then closing with a very proto-Madhouse Prince solo track (with Eric overdubs). So maybe Junk Music was the best of the batch, or at least Prince thought so at the time.

Thanks a lot y'all for sharing your thoughts and opinions.

Please note that I didn't mean to mean that W&L were not talented or precious contributors to P's music. I'm a MAJOR fan of their solo albums and I think they're extremely talented artists but as NouveauDance pointed out the deep value of their contributions to P's music was more of a studio thing. I wouldn't call P, W & L a "studio-unit", though, because save a few cases (SISIA, PF) it was more either Prince would build a song and its arrangements with the whole band during endless rehearsals and a track would be born outta this (many tracks on PR, America, Mountains, etc.) OR he'd do a song on his own and later give it to W&L to finish production and add vocals, strings, whatever to it. Prince usually isn't comfy working with just 1 or 2 people in the studio: it's more either building tracks out of jams with a whole band that he leads, or him alone and then post-production by others and he later would finalize it by choosing what he likes in their contribs. It's hard to say what The Revolution could really do, for example the 1977 jazz-funk recordings with P, André and Bobby show Bobby being capable of things one wouldn't ever think him capable of by just listening to later Prince concerts. W&L were extremely good at jamming long repetitive grooves (we have many rehearsals and live performances to prove it) so with a little practice -which wasn't the case during The Flesh sessions- God knows what they could have been able to do. However, I can't help but wonder how Now's The Time (SOTT Tour) could have sounded with the Expanded Revolution instead of the SOTT band.

It's also true that Prince intended to keep Matt AND Bobby originally, so it's a funny thing in the end because basically he just meant to replace Bobby by Sheila, Wendy by Miko and Lisa by anyone (it'd happen to be Boni). I wonder also what a SOTT/Lovesexy/Nude band could have sounded like with Mark on bass and if further jazzy work with the "Madhouse Quartet" would finally have convinced Prince to replace Mark by Levi anyway.

In the end, I think we all agree that it's very likely that The Flesh mostly happened just because the band was on holiday. Funny how things happen given the importance of those sessions, isn't it? ^^

NouveauDance said:

paulludvig said:

I think Prince prefered that session because of his own fabulous drumming. Once again W&L was lucky to be around at the right time.

Haha, well I didn't draw any conclusion as to WHY he preferred the the tracks he did!

You know what I think - maybe the second set was just a bit more focused and presentable for release. being the second set and all they might've had some ideas about what they wanted to do (which makes the first set sound just as tantalizing for different reasons - more spontaneous, freeform, etc? We do but wonder.....) Junk Music is basically the entire set with a come down and then closing with a very proto-Madhouse Prince solo track (with Eric overdubs). So maybe Junk Music was the best of the batch, or at least Prince thought so at the time.

There's no way to know (yet) but I suspect the Paisley Jam sessions had a much cleaner, tighter sound (see U Gotta Shake Something) but lacked the more intriguing, somewhat complex textures of the Everybody's Jam sessions.

paulludvig said:

I think it's interesting that when Prince disbanded the Rev he wanted to keep Mark and Matt on board, or rather he wanted get rid of W&L and Bobby. He had tried to include W&L on the Flesh sessions, but they struggled to keep up. They had been tested and failed. He realised that he could take Sheila, Eric and Levi with him forward, W&L (Wendy in particular) would hold him back

Why/How did Lisa struggle to keep up?

And the song Up From Below I don't see either of them struggling on that one, next to A Couple of Miles, it's my favorite.

.

But that isn't why he cut with Wendy & Lisa. It was more emotional reasons, He talked about it a bit in a 1990 interview. And recording the songs In This Bed I Scream also encourages this that the situation was personal/emotional.

.

Also how does this conclude a realization he should take Levi forward, when Levi initially was not going to go forward, because Prince wanted BrownMark

.

Also these sessions which Prince somehow wanted to be included in UTCM, were not the 'new direction' in Prince music. Prince didn't go forwad with this sound. He went forth with the sound he was creating with Wendy & Lisa and the Revolution via Dream Factory.

paulludvig said:

NouveauDance said:

I've pondered this here over the years too - Remembering that we don't really have much of those sessions, but judging on what little we do have; I agree Wendy seems to get lost in the mix of Junk Music, but I really enjoy Lisa's piano and it holds it's own imo, alongside the discernible contributions from everyone else.

My thoughts I think we along the same lines: These sessions might've just been using who was available at the time (seems a Princely thing to do, short notice and all).

Undoubtedly The Flesh led to Madhouse, the lineage of ideas in how to present the music and it's style is very clear. I don't regard it as a "test" for the Revolution at all, but I can certainly see how from this project he saw what he might be able to do with Eric, Sheila, Levi and furthermore it was the seed or spark for his post-Revolution band and playstyle - so no I don't think it was a calculated test, just something that planted a seed. As for W&L "struggling" or whatever, people's strengths are in different areas, Prince, Wendy & Lisa as a unit in the studio brought something very unique and special that couldn't be replicated by other band members and musicians around at the time, and let's not forget the only group recordings that Prince chose for the album from the entirety of the sessions are from the Everybody's Jam, which featured Wendy & Lisa. As far as we know (and we don't know if this was the final album configuration) Prince prefered for the album recordings from the second session.

I think Prince prefered that session because of his own fabulous drumming. Once again W&L was lucky to be around at the right time.

I'm not knocking Prince's drumming but Prince was off too, and missing beats.
Man U do not like W&L lol

I actually don't see the Flesh sessions as a direct foreshadowing of Madhouse

I see the Family music sounding more similar in ways to Madhouse first

.

Like Data said, I think Wendy's touch made the music stand out, like on Y'all Want More? That guitar strumming to me made the song + Levi's bass line. They stayed the same throught. there was the part were her guitar strum changed and went off line. But again these are jam sessions. Prince's beats were off too.

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I don't think this was a test run. I actually love the full combination of The Revolution + Sheila E band that we witness on at the AMA 1985 IWD4U/Baby I'm a Star, and the IWDI4U and America jams on the Purple Rain tour. After hearing the 6.7.1985 Masquerade show I'm more convinced I would have prefered a combo band where interchanging themusicians and still have some proteges (minus the 3 dancers)

OldFriends4Sale said:

I actually don't see the Flesh sessions as a direct foreshadowing of Madhouse

I see the Family music sounding more similar in ways to Madhouse first

It's a nice addition to this convo to add The Family to the mix. It was a testing ground for MANY things for Prince: Clare Fischer's orchestra, Eric Leeds as the lead horn player, instrumental jazz-funk tracks, and the continuation of experiments started with ATWIAD when it came to having a proeminent sax player in general, a more "poppish" sound than ever before and more sophisticated arrangements in general that would depart his music from the synth-based Mpls sound it was rooted in from 78 to 84.

Obviously what would become Madhouse was first rooted in the 2 instrumental tracks of the Family album, itself recorded in late 84, i.e. a year before The Flesh. More precisely, the somewhat robotic and stubbornly repetitive groove + jazzy sax solos formula was elaborated on mostly with 16 and the first 24 album, therefore after 8 that itself had a more organic feel to it. Obviously we could of course go back as far as the Loring Park session from 77 and say the idea of doing jazz-funk was there from the begining but never elaborated on again until The Family.

Where, however, I see The Flesh as the strongest precursor to Madhouse (and Times Squared, and the "new directions in music" trilogy of 02-03) is because it was the first time that Prince envisioned releasing a totally instrumental record as well as the first time he recorded with the "Madhouse Quartet" and by doing so defined a "sound" that would be quite proeminent in his 86-88 recordings (without necessarly being a reboot, as you cleverly stated it was all a continuous progression and there's hardly ever been a brutal change of sound in Prince's career).

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I actually don't see the Flesh sessions as a direct foreshadowing of Madhouse

I see the Family music sounding more similar in ways to Madhouse first

It's a nice addition to this convo to add The Family to the mix. It was a testing ground for MANY things for Prince: Clare Fischer's orchestra, Eric Leeds as the lead horn player, instrumental jazz-funk tracks, and the continuation of experiments started with ATWIAD when it came to having a proeminent sax player in general, a more "poppish" sound than ever before and more sophisticated arrangements in general that would depart his music from the synth-based Mpls sound it was rooted in from 78 to 84.

Obviously what would become Madhouse was first rooted in the 2 instrumental tracks of the Family album, itself recorded in late 84, i.e. a year before The Flesh. More precisely, the somewhat robotic and stubbornly repetitive groove + jazzy sax solos formula was elaborated on mostly with 16 and the first 24 album, therefore after 8 that itself had a more organic feel to it. Obviously we could of course go back as far as the Loring Park session from 77 and say the idea of doing jazz-funk was there from the begining but never elaborated on again until The Family.

Where, however, I see The Flesh as the strongest precursor to Madhouse (and Times Squared, and the "new directions in music" trilogy of 02-03) is because it was the first time that Prince envisioned releasing a totally instrumental record as well as the first time he recorded with the "Madhouse Quartet" and by doing so defined a "sound" that would be quite proeminent in his 86-88 recordings (without necessarly being a reboot, as you cleverly stated it was all a continuous progression and there's hardly ever been a brutal change of sound in Prince's career).

One other person we lost as as result of the 1986-1987 band change is Eddie M. His sound was just perfect for Prince music, and he and Eric complimented each other yet were different

.

When I think of the Dream Factory project and see and find out that most of what we see as far as dress and stage(SOTT) set up was Dream Factory, even down to Cat's peach outfit 4 Susannah

.

I think a combination of the Revolution and Sheila E but also letting Sheila stay as a protege(I miss the protege aspect of the 1987-1988 years) Madhouse outside of the drummer was SOOT band.

Great thoughts by everyone!

Quite honestly I think Prince was just trying out new things with people in his musical camp to see what he had and what people were capable of doing. Prince was streching his musical abilities and probably wanted to see who else could too. Maybe it was some sort of a test. Maybe he knew what Dr. Fink and BrownMark were capable of, hence wanting to keep them around for SOTT. As for the others, Sheila is better than Bobby(although the 1977 recordings are really good with him on the skins), and with W+L maybe he wanted to see if they had grown and were capable of keeping up.

All in all, it was a major shift in Prince's sound for the up coming projects (Madhouse, Camille, CB, SOTT).

As musicians I think it's wrong to judge Lisa & Wendy the same. I know we are used to typing W&L for time, but they are 2 different musicians.

1st they play 2 different instruments

2nd Wendy was in the band since 1980 Dirty Mind Controversy 1999 Purple Rain ATWIAD Parade

I think she kept up pretty dam well in all those various styles of music

.

Lisa's style was special to Prince music live and studio

These 1997 quotes by Prince are not of someone who 'couldn't keep up' or was not good enough

.

I remember when Miles Davis came to my house. As he was passing by my piano, he stopped and put his hands down on the keys and played these eight chords, one after the other. It was so beautiful; he sounded like Bill Evans or Lisa [Coleman], who also had this way of playing chords that were so perfect.

...

Lisa was never an explosive keyboard player, but she was a master of color in her harmonies; I could sing off of what she had with straight soul.

.

I always say in that 1982-1987 period he had a Dream Team of musicians managers engineers even his hair stylist lol

I don't think when it comes to the composing aspect of things Sheila was even close to Wendy or Lisa. I love Sheila on percussion 1st and as a frontman, I love her on drums. Having Sheila E & Bobby Z switching up for parts of shows would have been cool.

Preferably Prince & the Revolution, the Family, Sheila E & Mazarati in the 1987 period would have been my wet dream.

^ OldfRiends4Sale is right, though, when he says the main reasons behind firing W&L was probably mostly the result of personal conflicts. They had wanted to leave a few months earlier and he'd begged them to stay, Wendy was waaay too involved emotionally in P's relationship with her sister, they were creative tensions over the expanded Revolution's line-up and sound as well. Bobby it was clearly a musical decision for honest to God the dude looks like a real saint and he never pissed P off as far as we know. But W&L I wonder how things would have turned out if they'd had a more distant, professional relation to P the way the other had.

databank said:

^ OldfRiends4Sale is right, though, when he says the main reasons behind firing W&L was probably mostly the result of personal conflicts. They had wanted to leave a few months earlier and he'd begged them to stay, Wendy was waaay too involved emotionally in P's relationship with her sister, they were creative tensions over the expanded Revolution's line-up and sound as well. Bobby it was clearly a musical decision for honest to God the dude looks like a real saint and he never pissed P off as far as we know. But W&L I wonder how things would have turned out if they'd had a more distant, professional relation to P the way the other had.

I think even moreso the personal/emotional issues had something to do with Prince being uncomfortable with that level of closeness.
I mean when everyon in the camp notice it, not just a social-closeness but 'soul' connection from Alan Eric Bobby Z Susan Rogers Dr Fink etc

Because Prince talked a lot about possibilities of feeling hurt and left alone.
Levels of intimacy can mess with someone like Prince.

I think of the song Wally and what he told Susan Rogers of why he was making and destroying the song.

OldFriends4Sale said:

As musicians I think it's wrong to judge Lisa & Wendy the same. I know we are used to typing W&L for time, but they are 2 different musicians.

1st they play 2 different instruments

2nd Wendy was in the band since 1980 Dirty Mind Controversy 1999 Purple Rain ATWIAD Parade

I think she kept up pretty dam well in all those various styles of music

.

Lisa's style was special to Prince music live and studio

These 1997 quotes by Prince are not of someone who 'couldn't keep up' or was not good enough

.

I remember when Miles Davis came to my house. As he was passing by my piano, he stopped and put his hands down on the keys and played these eight chords, one after the other. It was so beautiful; he sounded like Bill Evans or Lisa [Coleman], who also had this way of playing chords that were so perfect.

...

Lisa was never an explosive keyboard player, but she was a master of color in her harmonies; I could sing off of what she had with straight soul.

.

I always say in that 1982-1987 period he had a Dream Team of musicians managers engineers even his hair stylist lol

I don't think when it comes to the composing aspect of things Sheila was even close to Wendy or Lisa. I love Sheila on percussion 1st and as a frontman, I love her on drums. Having Sheila E & Bobby Z switching up for parts of shows would have been cool.

Preferably Prince & the Revolution, the Family, Sheila E & Mazarati in the 1987 period would have been my wet dream.

I suppose you mean Lisa? And I agree. Lisa had a greater musical vocabulary than Wendy. She's doing quite well on The Flesh, although basically playing the same solo (at least in the same style) as she did on the Parade tour (after Anotherloverholenyohead). W&L were still a couple, weren't they? Maybe Prince couldn't get rid of Wendy without having to let Lisa go as well?

paulludvig said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

As musicians I think it's wrong to judge Lisa & Wendy the same. I know we are used to typing W&L for time, but they are 2 different musicians.

1st they play 2 different instruments

2nd Wendy was in the band since 1980 Dirty Mind Controversy 1999 Purple Rain ATWIAD Parade

I think she kept up pretty dam well in all those various styles of music

.

Lisa's style was special to Prince music live and studio

These 1997 quotes by Prince are not of someone who 'couldn't keep up' or was not good enough

.

I remember when Miles Davis came to my house. As he was passing by my piano, he stopped and put his hands down on the keys and played these eight chords, one after the other. It was so beautiful; he sounded like Bill Evans or Lisa [Coleman], who also had this way of playing chords that were so perfect.

...

Lisa was never an explosive keyboard player, but she was a master of color in her harmonies; I could sing off of what she had with straight soul.

.

I always say in that 1982-1987 period he had a Dream Team of musicians managers engineers even his hair stylist lol

I don't think when it comes to the composing aspect of things Sheila was even close to Wendy or Lisa. I love Sheila on percussion 1st and as a frontman, I love her on drums. Having Sheila E & Bobby Z switching up for parts of shows would have been cool.

Preferably Prince & the Revolution, the Family, Sheila E & Mazarati in the 1987 period would have been my wet dream.

I suppose you mean Lisa? And I agree. Lisa had a greater musical vocabulary than Wendy. She's doing quite well on The Flesh, although basically playing the same solo (at least in the same style) as she did on the Parade tour (after Anotherloverholenyohead). W&L were still a couple, weren't they? Maybe Prince couldn't get rid of Wendy without having to let Lisa go as well?

Yes Lisa Coleman.

Sheila E played the same drum solo on the Romance 1600 tour that she did on the SOTT tour and on her Sex Symbol album.
Prince played a lot of the same guitar solo riffs on a lot of different songs...especially that Let's Go Crazy ending solo

paulludvig said:

I think it's interesting that when Prince disbanded the Rev he wanted to keep Mark and Matt on board, or rather he wanted get rid of W&L and Bobby. He had tried to include W&L on the Flesh sessions, but they struggled to keep up. They had been tested and failed. He realised that he could take Sheila, Eric and Levi with him forward, W&L (Wendy in particular) would hold him back

except that they did not hold prince back .. prince got worse without them .. his music got simpler .. less poetic less complex .. he traded for top notch session musicians but that is not an improvement .. prince lived on thru the rev left overs and outstanding session musicians for years and then finally fell off when on his own .. do u really find dnp or goldnigga to be an improvement over say parade or the family?

paulludvig said:

Maybe Prince couldn't get rid of Wendy without having to let Lisa go as well?

They were the ones getting sick of the situation (personal and professional), iirc he asked them to stay on for the Parade tour and then fired them afterwards ("Nah-nah-nah! You can't quit, I fire you!")

TrevorAyer said:

paulludvig said:

I think it's interesting that when Prince disbanded the Rev he wanted to keep Mark and Matt on board, or rather he wanted get rid of W&L and Bobby. He had tried to include W&L on the Flesh sessions, but they struggled to keep up. They had been tested and failed. He realised that he could take Sheila, Eric and Levi with him forward, W&L (Wendy in particular) would hold him back

except that they did not hold prince back .. prince got worse without them .. his music got simpler .. less poetic less complex .. he traded for top notch session musicians but that is not an improvement .. prince lived on thru the rev left overs and outstanding session musicians for years and then finally fell off when on his own .. do u really find dnp or goldnigga to be an improvement over say parade or the family?

Of course not. But I think the drop off has less to do with new band members and more to do with Prince panicking in face of a changing music industry, a drop in sales and maybe pressure to deliver commercially.

paulludvig said:

TrevorAyer said:

except that they did not hold prince back .. prince got worse without them .. his music got simpler .. less poetic less complex .. he traded for top notch session musicians but that is not an improvement .. prince lived on thru the rev left overs and outstanding session musicians for years and then finally fell off when on his own .. do u really find dnp or goldnigga to be an improvement over say parade or the family?

Of course not. But I think the drop off has less to do with new band members and more to do with Prince panicking in face of a changing music industry, a drop in sales and maybe pressure to deliver commercially.

because he no longer had the people that he felt a community with-his words about community.

His world changed. None of the people who were there with him pre-fame were around -No Time, no Jill Jones, none of the pre or post Revolution.

TrevorAyer said:

paulludvig said:

I think it's interesting that when Prince disbanded the Rev he wanted to keep Mark and Matt on board, or rather he wanted get rid of W&L and Bobby. He had tried to include W&L on the Flesh sessions, but they struggled to keep up. They had been tested and failed. He realised that he could take Sheila, Eric and Levi with him forward, W&L (Wendy in particular) would hold him back

except that they did not hold prince back .. prince got worse without them .. his music got simpler .. less poetic less complex .. he traded for top notch session musicians but that is not an improvement .. prince lived on thru the rev left overs and outstanding session musicians for years and then finally fell off when on his own .. do u really find dnp or goldnigga to be an improvement over say parade or the family?

In certain aspects, yes, in some others, no. The music on Gold Nigga is undeniably less poetic but, contrarely to what you say, more complex than the music on The Family or Parade.

[Edited 11/24/14 22:54pm]

NouveauDance said:

paulludvig said:

Maybe Prince couldn't get rid of Wendy without having to let Lisa go as well?

They were the ones getting sick of the situation (personal and professional), iirc he asked them to stay on for the Parade tour and then fired them afterwards ("Nah-nah-nah! You can't quit, I fire you!")

I think that was BrownMark. W&L were fired.

paulludvig said:

NouveauDance said:

They were the ones getting sick of the situation (personal and professional), iirc he asked them to stay on for the Parade tour and then fired them afterwards ("Nah-nah-nah! You can't quit, I fire you!")

I think that was BrownMark. W&L were fired.

The wanted to quit BEFORE the Parade Tour (or during it I can't remember) and P begged them to stay, then AFTER the tour he fired them.