depite Tony M this album has some truly great songs , great NPG band playing & is lots of fun. How can an album with 7, SExy MF, God Created Woman, Damn U, The Max amonst many others be 'cringe'?

A lot of his 90s rap stuff is really cringey the older it gets. I was listening to Pussy Control the other day and I realised how desperately hard he was chasing the hip-hop/rap trend - he was totally reactionary at the time and it continued with Emancipation etc with all the R.Kelly et all influenced R&B.

Not there isn't good stuff there - I like P.Control, Days Of Wild etc, but it's so desperate to connect with what was popular at the time.

I like the live band sounding songs on and D&P like Love 2 The 9's, Willing & Able, Money Don't Matter, Strollin' etc - that stuff has aged great in comparison.

I completely agree. Outside of 7, and God Created Woman, and maybe Blue Light I have never been a fan of this album. Its one of his worst projects imo.

Correct. The videos from that era are so painfull. Typhoon doo and the gun mic still give me douchechills.

So sad to see him try so damn hard to "keep it real".

Prince has never had a problem when it came to hiphop. Or taking flavours from it. He's just worked with some clumsey rappers. Had he got into the studio with 2pac or Jay-Z - what could have been, instead we got TC Ellis and Tony M. Housequake, Irrisistable Bitch, Gett Off, SexyMF, MNIP... great songs...

hit #1 in the UK spent 21 weeks on the chart (sales). HipHop wasn't huge at this point. 2Pacs first album was about a year old when was released - 2pac was still relatively unknown in the UK. HipHop wasn't dominating the charts it was rare that rap made the charts. So to say he was chasing trends... I don't think thats true. This was the UK singles chart the week was released:

1	SLEEPING SATELLITE TASMIN ARCHER EMI	Watch Video
2	END OF THE ROAD BOYZ II MEN MOTOWN	Watch Video
3	EBENEEZER GOODE SHAMEN ONE LITTLE INDIAN	Watch Video
4	I'M GONNA GET YOU BIZARRE INC FEAT. ANGIE BROWN VINYL SOLUTION	Watch Video
5	IT'S MY LIFE DR. ALBAN ARISTA	Watch Video
6	LOVE SONG/ALIVE AND KICKING SIMPLE MINDS VIRGIN	Watch Video
7	MY NAME IS PRINCE PRINCE AND THE NEW POWER GENERATION PAISLEY PARK	Watch Video
8	TETRIS DOCTOR SPIN CARPET	Watch Video
9	A MILLION LOVE SONGS (EP) TAKE THAT RCA	Watch Video
10	BAKER STREET UNDERCOVER PWL INTERNATIONAL

[Edited 11/7/14 12:23pm]

[Edited 11/7/14 12:26pm]

NouveauDance said:

I like the live band sounding songs on and D&P like Love 2 The 9's, Willing & Able, Money Don't Matter, Strollin' etc - that stuff has aged great in comparison.

THIS! These are the tracks from the albums i love too.

NouveauDance said:

I was listening to Pussy Control the other day and I realised how desperately hard he was chasing the hip-hop/rap trend - he was totally reactionary at the time

"P Control" is ridiculous I wish he had put "Days Of Wild" on that album.It's a stronger,more convincing hip-hop attempt.On "P Control",Prince is simply trying too hard.

Y'all have to understand here. I Don't think the album is horrible. Hell... it was once in my top 5. But as i get older i cringe when i hear half the songs. The Max sounds so fucking dated. Which can be a good or bad thing in my book. But it sounds like 90's house beats that went outta style. And ''you tell me to walk a straight line. I put on crooked shoes''

And the flow? lord Buddha & Jesus that is just horrible. Sexy MF is still a pretty decent jam. I can dig it My Name Is Prince is another cheesy track. Sounds like he was trying hard to sound hip and cool. Tony M. is the only good thing about the track. So that's saying a lot...

The continental?
''I am the Continental, I am the main thing
Whatever come 'fore and after me is yin yang
Why settle for a star when you can have the sun?
C'mon let me do you like you want to be done''

Sounds like the worst of R. Kelly's lyrics

Damn U is just kind of boring to me. Sacrifice Of Victor is just there. The interludes are silly.

Tracks i can dig
7
3 Chains O Gold

Sexy MF
Love 2 the 9's

I Wanna Melt With You

On an album with 18 tracks. That's pretty meh.

robertgeorgeakabob said:

The closest Prince got to making credible hip hop was the rhythm track for Koo Koo. I always view Prince's 90s attempts as glam hop, it was all very fanciful and too decorative to be 'street'. [Edited 11/7/14 12:26pm]

Prince never really "made" hiphop per se. He raps sometimes and is pretty decent at it.

He's not a homeboy, and certainly not "gangsta". He's never been in jail... is that what you mean when you say "street"?

Of course he was never going to be up there with 2pac in terms of being a rapper. He didn't make political rap, he just put verses over a beat/groove. For the most part it's successful. It was Tony M who was trying to be like 2pac and failing miserably at it. Although even Tony M had a few good lines here and there.

udo said:

You cringe.

So what does that say about you?

Were you trying to say ''Your cringe'' or were you trying to state i cringe? cause that would was insinuated in the starting post. So that says i cringe at the album. And says I'm a human being that has opinions. Not sure where you were going with this. But it has failure written all over it

to Noodled24,

in 1992 hip hop was already major and had made a lot of noise on the streets, Prince was definately responding to it.

Groups and Acts like Run DMC (in the mid 80s) LL Cool J, Public Enemy, Boogie Down Productions, NWA, Ice Cube, Ice-T, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul had all achieved popularity and were having lots of success.

Acts like Dr. Dre with The Chronic, NWA before that, and Ice Cube were responsible for helping to bring the street element into hip hop, and it was massively popular.

Prince was 100% aware of all this, and wanted to ride the wave of hip hop's new prominence. Pac and Jay Z are later ERA's of Hip Hop (Starting around 1995-96); Prince wasnt responding to those particular acts success in the early 90s, they hadn't blown up yet.

Those songs you mentioned are great and I love em cause I love and respect P's music, but to a "hard core hiphop fan" those tracks wouldn't be played along side some NWA or KRS-One, Rakim or Tribe Called Quest, or any other true HipHop act making noise in the late 80's/early 90's. But make no Mistake, the rappers and hip hop musicians (I.E. Questlove of the rap group "The Roots") that know "real music" know P is the man, and kinda give him a pass for his attempts at Rapping.

[Edited 11/7/14 12:40pm]

[Edited 11/7/14 12:41pm]

lostangel078 said:

to Noodled24,

in 1992 hip hop was already major and had made a lot of noise on the streets, Prince was definately responding to it.

Major? I can't speak to the USA, but in the UK and Europe not so much. LL Cool J had a top 10 single in 87 or so but never cracked the top ten again until '96. Run DMC had a hit single in 86 or so, but not again until '98. NWA have never cracked the top 20 in the UK... De La Soul have had more success. Hip Hop was still kind of underground in the UK at this point, and was still refered to as "Rap music" by most people.

Groups and Acts like Run DMC (in the mid 80s) LL Cool J, Public Enemy, Boogie Down Productions, NWA, Ice Cube, Ice-T, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul had all achieved popularity and were having lots of success.

In the USA perhaps. They'd had moderate success elsewhere.

Those songs you mentioned are great and I love em cause I love and respect P's music, but to a "hard core hiphop fan" those tracks wouldn't be played along side some NWA or KRS-One, Rakim or Tribe Called Quest, or any other true HipHop act making noise in the late 80's/early 90's. But make no Mistake, the rappers and hip hop musicians (I.E. Questlove of the rap group "The Roots") that know "real music" know P is the man, and kinda give him a pass for his attempts at Rapping.

Of course they wouldn't but I never said they would. Prince's forrays into rap have never tried to sound that way. He's never particularly aggressive or political.

Noodled24 said:

lostangel078 said:

to Noodled24,

in 1992 hip hop was already major and had made a lot of noise on the streets, Prince was definately responding to it.

Major? I can't speak to the USA, but in the UK and Europe not so much. LL Cool J had a top 10 single in 87 or so but never cracked the top ten again until '96. Run DMC had a hit single in 86 or so, but not again until '98. NWA have never cracked the top 20 in the UK... De La Soul have had more success. Hip Hop was still kind of underground in the UK at this point, and was still refered to as "Rap music" by most people.

In the USA perhaps. They'd had moderate success elsewhere.

Those songs you mentioned are great and I love em cause I love and respect P's music, but to a "hard core hiphop fan" those tracks wouldn't be played along side some NWA or KRS-One, Rakim or Tribe Called Quest, or any other true HipHop act making noise in the late 80's/early 90's. But make no Mistake, the rappers and hip hop musicians (I.E. Questlove of the rap group "The Roots") that know "real music" know P is the man, and kinda give him a pass for his attempts at Rapping.

Of course they wouldn't but I never said they would. Prince's forrays into rap have never tried to sound that way. He's never particularly aggressive or political.

not trying to get up in y'all's debate or nothing, but hip hop acts' chart success in the UK is hardly relevant...prince is a US citizen, and the core of his audience are also US citizens.

Noodled24 said:

peedub said:

Noodled24 said:

Of course they wouldn't but I never said they would. Prince's forrays into rap have never tried to sound that way. He's never particularly aggressive or political.

not trying to get up in y'all's debate or nothing, but hip hop acts' chart success in the UK is hardly relevant...prince is a US citizen, and the core of his audience are also US citizens.

^ Thats true, but he was in Europe a lot around then. Also if you look back at the US Charts around the time this album was released I don't think HipHop dominated the charts the way it did later in the 90s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...es_of_1992

Thats not to say it wasn't becoming a huge movement, and there were a lot of Rappers and HipHop groups making their way into the top 10/20. But as of '92 it wasn't completely dominating mainstream culture. Although it was probably starting to.

[Edited 11/7/14 13:26pm]

robertgeorgeakabob said:

Noodled24 said:

Prince never really "made" hiphop per se. He raps sometimes and is pretty decent at it.

He's not a homeboy, and certainly not "gangsta". He's never been in jail... is that what you mean when you say "street"?

Of course he was never going to be up there with 2pac in terms of being a rapper. He didn't make political rap, he just put verses over a beat/groove. For the most part it's successful. It was Tony M who was trying to be like 2pac and failing miserably at it. Although even Tony M had a few good lines here and there.

No. I don't equate 'street' with being in jail. I mean to resonate with the 'homies' on the 'street'.

Sorry - I read that back after you replied. There wasn't supposed to be a tone there, I was just implying the "Badboy" image of 2pac, biggie, Jay-Z etc.

[Edited 11/7/14 13:30pm]

Noodled24 said:

I agree with most of what you wrote (and don´t forget that flannell shirt with the cut-off arms because, you know...grunge ...) but I am surprised that you happen to like some of the weaker songs on that album, like for instance Blue Light and Three Chains of Gold. Seriously?

Anyway....I think it has its merits and is a very underrated album in hindsight that is marred by its very obvious flaws. Here´s what I wrote on some other thread:

The album.....it has some awful and badly dated songs on it (My Name Is Prince, The Flow,The Continental, etc. etc.) but it also has some very strong and timeless masterpieces on it, some very personal and political lyrics (The Sacrifice Of Victor), and some really romantic, heartfelt and melodic songs like Damn U, God Created Woman and Sweet Baby.

It suffers from the horrible narration and segues with Vanessa Bartholomew/Kirstie Alley, the Tony M. rap parts, the Prince rap parts and that pseudo-esotheric Egyptian motif or rock opera story but it really has some very strong and memorable songs on it, probably more than Diamonds and Pearls,which was shorter and had weaker songs on it but still managed to be so much more successful in terms of commercial success.

I liked and still like both albums but I think this was a wasted opportunity.

I still listen to this cd and LOVE IT! There are only a couple of skips.....I think "The Sacrifice of Victor" is my favorite.......it's just FUNKay . " I Wanna Melt With U" and "The Continetntal" are extremely good too......The n-word being used is not necessary (imo), however, it doesn't take away from the music...."My Name is Prince" and "Sexy MF" get the album started perfectly......"Blue Light" is sexy......I truly love this cd. I'm on my second and it skips all the time, so I'll bet getting another one shortly.

The Symbol album was just too ambitious, but that does not make it cringeworthy. A flawed effort but with plenty of songs worth your while.

HardcoreJollies said:

My Name Is Prince Yes	6:39
Sexy M. F. Yes	5:25
Love 2 the 9's Yes	5:45
The Morning Papers Yes	3:58
The Max Yes	4:31
Segue No	0:22
Blue Light No	4:38
I Wanna Melt With U Yes	3:51
Sweet Baby No	4:02
The Continental Yes	5:31
Damn U Yes	4:25
Arrogance No	1:35
The Flow No	2:27
7 Yes	5:09
And God Created Woman	No 3:18
3 Chains o' Gold No	6:03
The Sacrifice of Victor Yes	5:42

10 thumbs-up songs out of 15 is pretty damn good. Mostly the second half is a little spotty. No matter what, to me this was a HUGE improvement over D&P. Much more adventurous and funky.

WTF? No.

i've been curious for years now to hear stuff from the era of both this album

and diamonds and pearls that didn't make the cut. or that was recorded too

early or too late to be considered for inclusion.

/

there's songs like "schoolyard" (which many hate, it seems, but i love it) but

for the most part a lot of what was recorded post GB and pre-Come/Gold is

not circulating in any form as far as i know.

/

it's an interesting period for several reasons and i'd just be very interested

in hearing what else he recorded at the time.

/

songs he wrote and gave to others during this period have a very different

vibe. (like "love...thy will be done" for example).

Noodled24 said:

^ Thats true, but he was in Europe a lot around then. Also if you look back at the US Charts around the time this album was released I don't think HipHop dominated the charts the way it did later in the 90s.

You can't look at charts to measure cultural influence, and popularity.
UK charts are even farther from the picture, but let's say Prince did think he could break Hip Hop in Europe... Public Enemy already toured London by 87...KLM had a huge hit...Arrested Development and PM Dawn were getting air play...MARRS Pump up the Volume was 87...Neneh Cherry, and oh yeah, Malcolm McClaren for goodness sakes...so even if Prince suddenly wasn't American and only looked to the UK, there was no shortage of Rap influenced material. That's without even getting into stuff like PIL, Tom Tom Club, etc.

IstenSzek said:

i've been curious for years now to hear stuff from the era of both this album

and diamonds and pearls that didn't make the cut. or that was recorded too

early or too late to be considered for inclusion.

/

there's songs like "schoolyard" (which many hate, it seems, but i love it) but

for the most part a lot of what was recorded post GB and pre-Come/Gold is

not circulating in any form as far as i know.

/

it's an interesting period for several reasons and i'd just be very interested

in hearing what else he recorded at the time.

/

songs he wrote and gave to others during this period have a very different

vibe. (like "love...thy will be done" for example).

There was a minute when he was going somewhere. Actually 2 different directions. The Schoolyard/Love Thy Will Be Done/Open Book kind of sound.... and the I Wonder/5 Women/Uh Huh direction.

and then he didn't do either and made D&P instead

I love I Wonder. and Uh Huh, actually. I'd kill for crystal clear copies of his versions of Love Thy Will Be Done and Open Book though.

I still find it hard to enjoy because it all seems like a lot of horrible 1992 pop culture pastiche. The poorly articulated story at the center seems like a weird ripoff of Disney's Aladdin (1992). Musically - 3 Chains O' Gold must have been influenced by Wayne's World's 1992 revival of Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody. Two words: Kirstie Allie. In the end, what fool would listen to this whole thing and buy that Prince was now the leader of some sort of ghetto street crew?!?

Ugh... the whole affair was just annoying (IMO).

IstenSzek said:

i've been curious for years now to hear stuff from the era of both this album

and diamonds and pearls that didn't make the cut. or that was recorded too

early or too late to be considered for inclusion.

/

there's songs like "schoolyard" (which many hate, it seems, but i love it) but

for the most part a lot of what was recorded post GB and pre-Come/Gold is

not circulating in any form as far as i know.

/

it's an interesting period for several reasons and i'd just be very interested

in hearing what else he recorded at the time.

/

songs he wrote and gave to others during this period have a very different

vibe. (like "love...thy will be done" for example).

Open Book, Allegiance, Don´t Say U Love Me and Get Blue also come to mind. And of course Snowman and 1000 Hugs And Kisses. I absolutely love 1000 Hugs And Kisses. And Snowman is briliant if you´re familiar with Marvin Gaye´s later years in Belgium.

But yes, outtakes from that time are comparatively rare.