SpiritOtter said:

EMANCIPATION: rnb pop album NEWPOWER SOUL: rnb pop album RAVE UN2 THE JOY FANTASTIC: rnb pop album HIGH: rnb pop album CHOCOLATE INVASION: rnb pop album SLAUGHTERHOUSE: rnb pop album MUSICOLOGY: rnb pop album 3121: rnb pop album MILK & HONEY: rnb pop album MPLSOUND: rnb pop album ELIXIR: rnb pop album 20TEN: rnb pop album Of course there have been exceptions but Prince has been an RNB POP artist, in the main, for at least the last 15~20 years...

I really can't argue with that. Yes, he still retains his own unique style in many ways, but from Emancipation forward it seems clear that (with some notable exceptions such as Lotusflower and Rainbow Children) most of his albums have been very "mainstream" R&B/pop, especially compared to his output prior to Emancipation. Even the Symbol album or Diamonds and Pearls which were his first real forays into rap in album form sounded nothing like any of the R&B/pop on the radio before or since (again, with some exceptions, such as the title track on "Diamonds and Pearls").

I remember being so thrilled to finally hear the first single from Emancipation, "the album he was born to make," and within the first 3 seconds of "Betcha By Golly Wow" I was literally grimacing and shaking my head.

Now, I like a lot of his more recent "mainstream" stuff...but to me, it was hard to believe that the same man who had written The Gold Experience just a couple years earlier was now releasing something that sounded like Emancipation (and yes, I get on my occasional Emancipation kicks where it is in heavy rotation for a couple of days - but I always, always, always skip "Betcha By Golly Wow." I'd take a million "Jughead"s over that - I actually think tracks like Jughead, and especially, Horny Pony, are really fun).

1725topp said:

SpiritOtter said:

EMANCIPATION: rnb pop album NEWPOWER SOUL: rnb pop album RAVE UN2 THE JOY FANTASTIC: rnb pop album HIGH: rnb pop album CHOCOLATE INVASION: rnb pop album SLAUGHTERHOUSE: rnb pop album MUSICOLOGY: rnb pop album 3121: rnb pop album MILK & HONEY: rnb pop album MPLSOUND: rnb pop album ELIXIR: rnb pop album 20TEN: rnb pop album Of course there have been exceptions but Prince has been an RNB POP artist, in the main, for at least the last 15~20 years...

*

There is no way that you can categorize 20Ten as a R&B pop album without categorizing 1999 as a R&B pop album because they are the same type of "sounds". In fact there is just as much guitar on 20Ten as there is on 1999. So that at least proves my point that Prince's base/foundation has always been funk/R&B, which is clearly heard through the 80s except for Around the World in a Day and Parade. Everything else in the 80s is based on this same formula or style. Remove "Let's Go Crazy" and the solo from "Computer Blue," and Purple Rain is, according to your definition, a R&B pop album. This is also true for Dirty Mind. Remove "When U Were Mind," and it is a basic R&B/Funk album. Same for Controversy. Remove "Sexuality" and "Jack U Off," and it is a basic R&B/Funk album. Thus, whatever Prince was during the 80s, he is the same today. But, the real difference is that unlike so many others on this site who view R&B/Funk as somehow less sophisticated than Rock, I understand the diversity and creativity, especially with the bass, boards, and guitar, that R&B and Funk offers.

robertgeorgeakabob said:

1725topp said:

*

The very first sentence of my post is directly on topic, especially as it relates to your myopic notion regarding Prince's engagement of hip hop. Thus, the second sentence merely uses levity to show how narrow or erroneous your statement about Prince's use of hip hop is by exposing that your interpretation of Prince’s “change regarding hip hop” would leave little if any room for somebody to grow or evolve. (I’m sorry if that idea or concept was over your head.) So, you stop using insults and red herrings to avoid facing how flawed your assertion is.

Blah blah blah blah fucking blah. What a pile of pompous, sycophantic, ignorant crap you constantly talk. You can dress it up with condescending words all you like, it's nothing but waffle.

*

Awwww...did somebody get their itty bitty feelings hurt when I pulled back the covers and revealed that your point is naked of logic. I notice that you don't have a response for my points. Like they say, no roach likes when the lights are turned on. Later player.

SpiritOtter said:

You both make fair points also, skywalker and 1725. Well argued.

*

Thanks for the kind words, and I appreciate your insight as well. Take care.

robertgeorgeakabob said:

1725topp said:

Christ, all I care about is someone actually answering the O.P. - did this, or did this not happen?

Yes or no?

Simple really.

robertgeorgeakabob said:

1725topp said:

*

Awwww...did somebody get their itty bitty feelings hurt when I pulled back the covers and revealed that your point is naked of logic. I notice that you don't have a response for my points. Like they say, no roach likes when the lights are turned on. Later player.

Hahahadefuckingha I've had more enlightening pokey bum wanks than you. I bet you can't put a Fruit Pastille in your mouth without chewing.

*

Still not responding to the points about the topic? I guess a few lines of conversation reveal just how immature and petty you are. It seems that you were looking in the mirror when you said grow up. I've gone from laughing at you to feeling sorry for you. Later player.

Xibalba said:

SpiritOtter said:

EMANCIPATION: rnb pop album NEWPOWER SOUL: rnb pop album RAVE UN2 THE JOY FANTASTIC: rnb pop album HIGH: rnb pop album CHOCOLATE INVASION: rnb pop album SLAUGHTERHOUSE: rnb pop album MUSICOLOGY: rnb pop album 3121: rnb pop album MILK & HONEY: rnb pop album MPLSOUND: rnb pop album ELIXIR: rnb pop album 20TEN: rnb pop album Of course there have been exceptions but Prince has been an RNB POP artist, in the main, for at least the last 15~20 years...

These are your personal categorizations of musical genres covered on these albums?

-

For example: "pop" is a HUGE broad (and at the same time non existant) genre, because it is actually not a style but a reflection of commericalism/popularity/fame and trends.

-

I'd say your classifications are inaccurate. One could as easily use the same clumbsy brush to classify Prince as a "pop/R&B" artist for his entire career, not just the last 15-20 years.

[Edited 9/14/13 19:45pm]

Good thread, good discussion for a change...

1725topp said:

thx every one for their input. but after allot of research I found the actual footage of this night on the internet and it happened for sure.. just how I remembered it.

robertgeorgeakabob said:

I've already made my point...read back. When Prince absorbed the sounds of the 80s, New Romanticism, electro etc. he made them more daring, more creative, more artistic.

I would disagree with this. I think he didn't contribute anything to these movements because he absorbed them and spat them out as an entirely new amalgamation/beast: The MPLSOUND. By the time Prince had touched/done his take on these sounds/style/movements it was something different. It was Prince music.

When Prince started rapping (if it's fit to be called that) he brought the genre of hip hop NOTHING. He wasn't absorbed in it, he didn't relate to it, thus he produced shit so pop-hop that MC Hammer would have laughed at, never mind a credible rapper.

Rap/hip hop is a lot more of a devisive genre than New Romanticism/electro ever was. It was a line in the generational sand that turned the some of older portion of Prince's fanbase off. Prince was NEVER trying to "be hip hop." He was (like he was in the 80's) doing his own take/version/spin on a musical style. It wasn't hip hop because it was Prince music. Something new/different than the original "sound". As I said, you don't wear heels, eyeliner, and a chain mask if you are hip hop.

It compromised his art because what he produced was weak. It's as simple as that. I know my hip hop, Prince doesn't, and never has.

Do you say Prince doesn't "know" New Wave or electro because he didn't play "pure" version of the genres in the early 80's? He dissed New Wave hard on The Time's 1982 album, yet no one seems to give him shit for doing his take on the synth sounds of the 80's and changing them to fit his style.

-

Prince didn't do hip hop because he was "afraid of it." If anything hip hop and macho black male posturing of hip hop were/are/is afraid of his royal badness. He is always more talented and nasty then the wannabes that use his samples anyway. That's why Flava Flav can get dissed by Prince in front of the world and not do anything. Hurt me.

robertgeorgeakabob said:

1725topp said:

*

Still not responding to the points about the topic? I guess a few lines of conversation reveal just how immature and petty you are. It seems that you were looking in the mirror when you said grow up. I've gone from laughing at you to feeling sorry for you. Later player.

I've already made my point...read back. When Prince absorbed the sounds of the 80s, New Romanticism, electro etc. he made them more daring, more creative, more artistic. When Prince started rapping (if it's fit to be called that) he brought the genre of hip hop NOTHING. He wasn't absorbed in it, he didn't relate to it, thus he produced shit so pop-hop that MC Hammer would have laughed at, never mind a credible rapper. It compromised his art because what he produced was weak. It's as simple as that. I know my hip hop, Prince doesn't, and never has. Later smart arse x

*

Dude, don't try to be revisionist. You never said any of the above statement on this particular thread. You said: "Of course his hackneyed use of hip hop compromised his art. In 88 he produced Dead On It, a diatribe against shit hip hop;fast forward a few years and he's producing Jughead, the very shit he was criticising." And, it was to this myopic statement that I responded. In fact, maybe you should thank me for forcing you to be more articulate in your statements. However, you never said anything about New Romanticism or electro; that was SpiritOtter. But, to this lame notion I'll only say that I get so tired of people trying to give the European scene so much undue credit for Prince's sound. He was already playing the guitar, and the remainder of the Minneapolis Sound is based more on the synthesizer becoming more affordable, allowing American bands, especially African American bands, an alternative to horns, and it allowed musicians like Prince to be more self-contained. Thus, he wasn’t using the synthesizer because he was following the New Romantics or electro. I know you don’t think that the synthesizer solo in “Head” is even remotely influenced by anything the New Romantics or the electro scene was doing? Neither one of those scenes were ever that funky. And, “Jack U Off,” “Horny Toad,” and “Delirious” are just updated reworkings of fifties rock, which was nothing more than electrified blues, of course. As for his rapping, I've already said that Prince's rap is crap so that is nothing new you are telling me. However, my point to your first lame, poorly articulated post is that just because someone embraces something that he once saw as inferior art does not compromise one's art. Prince producing a poorly done rap song no more compromises his art than other songs that suck, such as "I Wonder U" or "Human Body," which are two songs of two very different genres that equally suck. If those two songs don't compromise his art, then his art can also survive "Jughead." In fact, if you know your Prince history, you will know that many of the early fans felt that Prince was compromising his art with Purple Rain because they viewed it as an overt attempt to crossover to a white audience. So, it seems that this lame ass notion about Prince compromising his art has always existed when Prince didn't remain in the lane/box in which his myopic fans desire him to be. Yet, what’s funny to me is that thirty years after Purple Rain Prince is not deemed as compromising his art when he tries and fails with other genres, but he is deemed as compromising his art when he tries and fails with hip hop? As much as I dislike hip hop, I still realize how lame that notion is. Later player.

skywalker said:

robertgeorgeakabob said:

I've already made my point...read back. When Prince absorbed the sounds of the 80s, New Romanticism, electro etc. he made them more daring, more creative, more artistic.

I would disagree with this. I think he didn't contribute anything to these movements because he absorbed them and spat them out as an entirely new amalgamation/beast: The MPLSOUND. By the time Prince had touched/done his take on these sounds/style/movements it was something different. It was Prince music.

Rap/hip hop is a lot more of a devisive genre than New Romanticism/electro ever was. It was a line in the generational sand that turned the some of older portion of Prince's fanbase off. Prince was NEVER trying to "be hip hop." He was (like he was in the 80's) doing his own take/version/spin on a musical style. It wasn't hip hop because it was Prince music. Something new/different than the original "sound". As I said, you don't wear heels, eyeliner, and a chain mask if you are hip hop.

It compromised his art because what he produced was weak. It's as simple as that. I know my hip hop, Prince doesn't, and never has.

Do you say Prince doesn't "know" New Wave or electro because he didn't play "pure" version of the genres in the early 80's? He dissed New Wave hard on The Time's 1982 album, yet no one seems to give him shit for doing his take on the synth sounds of the 80's and changing them to fit his style.

-

Prince didn't do hip hop because he was "afraid of it." If anything hip hop and macho black male posturing of hip hop were/are/is afraid of his royal badness. He is always more talented and nasty then the wannabes that use his samples anyway. That's why Flava Flav can get dissed by Prince in front of the world and not do anything. Hurt me.

*

As usual, Skywalker, you are "Dead on It"! On da one...I'm out!

1725topp said:

robertgeorgeakabob said:

1725topp said:

*

As usual, Skywalker, you are "Dead on It"! On da one...I'm out!

Now come on my dear chap. Nowhere did I say he was afraid of hip hop?? The hip hop he produced was shit. He's an artist. What else am I supposed to judge him by? That 1725552355stop character is a bit strange isn't he?

You didn't. I was going all of the way back to my original post in this thread. Sorry for the confusion.

1725topp said:

robertgeorgeakabob said:

1725topp said:

*

Dude, don't try to be revisionist. You never said any of the above statement on this particular thread. You said: "Of course his hackneyed use of hip hop compromised his art. In 88 he produced Dead On It, a diatribe against shit hip hop;fast forward a few years and he's producing Jughead, the very shit he was criticising." And, it was to this myopic statement that I responded. In fact, maybe you should thank me for forcing you to be more articulate in your statements. However, you never said anything about New Romanticism or electro; that was SpiritOtter. But, to this lame notion I'll only say that I get so tired of people trying to give the European scene so much undue credit for Prince's sound. He was already playing the guitar, and the remainder of the Minneapolis Sound is based more on the synthesizer becoming more affordable, allowing American bands, especially African American bands, an alternative to horns, and it allowed musicians like Prince to be more self-contained. Thus, he wasn’t using the synthesizer because he was following the New Romantics or electro. I know you don’t think that the synthesizer solo in “Head” is even remotely influenced by anything the New Romantics or the electro scene was doing? Neither one of those scenes were ever that funky. And, “Jack U Off,” “Horny Toad,” and “Delirious” are just updated reworkings of fifties rock, which was nothing more than electrified blues, of course. As for his rapping, I've already said that Prince's rap is crap so that is nothing new you are telling me. However, my point to your first lame, poorly articulated post is that just because someone embraces something that he once saw as inferior art does not compromise one's art. Prince producing a poorly done rap song no more compromises his art than other songs that suck, such as "I Wonder U" or "Human Body," which are two songs of two very different genres that equally suck. If those two songs don't compromise his art, then his art can also survive "Jughead." In fact, if you know your Prince history, you will know that many of the early fans felt that Prince was compromising his art with Purple Rain because they viewed it as an overt attempt to crossover to a white audience. So, it seems that this lame ass notion about Prince compromising his art has always existed when Prince didn't remain in the lane/box in which his myopic fans desire him to be. Yet, what’s funny to me is that thirty years after Purple Rain Prince is not deemed as compromising his art when he tries and fails with other genres, but he is deemed as compromising his art when he tries and fails with hip hop? As much as I dislike hip hop, I still realize how lame that notion is. Later player.

Haha love your paranoid rant about Europeans. Now we're getting to the root of the problem...you have issues regarding feelings of intellectual inadequacy. Your verbosity is obviously a floundering attempt to over compensate. Make yourself comfortable, help yourself to a Rowntree's Fruit Pastille, and tell me about your childhood. My sincere apologies go to SpiritOtter for infringing his copyright of the words "New Romanticism" and "electro".

*

Dude, you're so funny…or pathetic…I can’t tell anymore. I'mma just let you mentally masturbate cause you have completely stopped making sense or addressing any germane issues. Later player.

skywalker said:

robertgeorgeakabob said:

I've already made my point...read back. When Prince absorbed the sounds of the 80s, New Romanticism, electro etc. he made them more daring, more creative, more artistic.

I would disagree with this. I think he didn't contribute anything to these movements because he absorbed them and spat them out as an entirely new amalgamation/beast: The MPLSOUND. By the time Prince had touched/done his take on these sounds/style/movements it was something different. It was Prince music.

Rap/hip hop is a lot more of a devisive genre than New Romanticism/electro ever was. It was a line in the generational sand that turned the some of older portion of Prince's fanbase off. Prince was NEVER trying to "be hip hop." He was (like he was in the 80's) doing his own take/version/spin on a musical style. It wasn't hip hop because it was Prince music. Something new/different than the original "sound". As I said, you don't wear heels, eyeliner, and a chain mask if you are hip hop.

It compromised his art because what he produced was weak. It's as simple as that. I know my hip hop, Prince doesn't, and never has.

Do you say Prince doesn't "know" New Wave or electro because he didn't play "pure" version of the genres in the early 80's? He dissed New Wave hard on The Time's 1982 album, yet no one seems to give him shit for doing his take on the synth sounds of the 80's and changing them to fit his style.

-

Prince didn't do hip hop because he was "afraid of it." If anything hip hop and macho black male posturing of hip hop were/are/is afraid of his royal badness. He is always more talented and nasty then the wannabes that use his samples anyway. That's why Flava Flav can get dissed by Prince in front of the world and not do anything. Hurt me.

Useful points, skywalker.

theblueangel said:

SpiritOtter said:

EMANCIPATION: rnb pop album NEWPOWER SOUL: rnb pop album RAVE UN2 THE JOY FANTASTIC: rnb pop album HIGH: rnb pop album CHOCOLATE INVASION: rnb pop album SLAUGHTERHOUSE: rnb pop album MUSICOLOGY: rnb pop album 3121: rnb pop album MILK & HONEY: rnb pop album MPLSOUND: rnb pop album ELIXIR: rnb pop album 20TEN: rnb pop album Of course there have been exceptions but Prince has been an RNB POP artist, in the main, for at least the last 15~20 years...

I really can't argue with that. Yes, he still retains his own unique style in many ways, but from Emancipation forward it seems clear that (with some notable exceptions such as Lotusflower and Rainbow Children) most of his albums have been very "mainstream" R&B/pop, especially compared to his output prior to Emancipation. Even the Symbol album or Diamonds and Pearls which were his first real forays into rap in album form sounded nothing like any of the R&B/pop on the radio before or since (again, with some exceptions, such as the title track on "Diamonds and Pearls").

I remember being so thrilled to finally hear the first single from Emancipation, "the album he was born to make," and within the first 3 seconds of "Betcha By Golly Wow" I was literally grimacing and shaking my head.

Now, I like a lot of his more recent "mainstream" stuff...but to me, it was hard to believe that the same man who had written The Gold Experience just a couple years earlier was now releasing something that sounded like Emancipation (and yes, I get on my occasional Emancipation kicks where it is in heavy rotation for a couple of days - but I always, always, always skip "Betcha By Golly Wow." I'd take a million "Jughead"s over that - I actually think tracks like Jughead, and especially, Horny Pony, are really fun).

Nice. I agree re: JUGHEAD and HORNY PONY; ultra fun. I always can hear how Prince doesn't nowhere nearly as often post-Emancipation produce idiosyncratic "Prince" tracks, but rather songs which more neatly groove within specific genres.

1725topp said:

SpiritOtter said:

EMANCIPATION: rnb pop album NEWPOWER SOUL: rnb pop album RAVE UN2 THE JOY FANTASTIC: rnb pop album HIGH: rnb pop album CHOCOLATE INVASION: rnb pop album SLAUGHTERHOUSE: rnb pop album MUSICOLOGY: rnb pop album 3121: rnb pop album MILK & HONEY: rnb pop album MPLSOUND: rnb pop album ELIXIR: rnb pop album 20TEN: rnb pop album Of course there have been exceptions but Prince has been an RNB POP artist, in the main, for at least the last 15~20 years...

*

There is no way that you can categorize 20Ten as a R&B pop album without categorizing 1999 as a R&B pop album because they are the same type of "sounds". In fact there is just as much guitar on 20Ten as there is on 1999. So that at least proves my point that Prince's base/foundation has always been funk/R&B, which is clearly heard through the 80s except for Around the World in a Day and Parade. Everything else in the 80s is based on this same formula or style. Remove "Let's Go Crazy" and the solo from "Computer Blue," and Purple Rain is, according to your definition, a R&B pop album. This is also true for Dirty Mind. Remove "When U Were Mind," and it is a basic R&B/Funk album. Same for Controversy. Remove "Sexuality" and "Jack U Off," and it is a basic R&B/Funk album. Thus, whatever Prince was during the 80s, he is the same today. But, the real difference is that unlike so many others on this site who view R&B/Funk as somehow less sophisticated than Rock, I understand the diversity and creativity, especially with the bass, boards, and guitar, that R&B and Funk offers.

I think both you and skywalker have correctly pointed out the "clumsiness" of my RnB/pop classification of his Emancipation onwards work, because as you both point out astutely the same 'rule' could be applied to all his work. However, I think there might be an argument for a higher proportion (or certainly, a subjective felt sense) that as Prince has matured as an artist, his works have become far more formulaic (i.e. within the norms of a genre) than with his characteristic Prince-like idiosyncracies. It is why THE RAINBOW CHILDREN, N.E.W.S and even off-songs like GLASSCUTTER and F.U.N.K. were almost welcome surprises and out of the blue. Back in the day, you would be surprised if you were not suprised. Nowadays, you are surprised if you are surprised. Don't get me wrong; I dig all of it.